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[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

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WB40

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I suspect SSB4 to be released in Fall 2014/Early 2015.

I came to this conclusion by adding the gaps between the Japanese releases of SSB games. There is the gap between SSB64 and SSBM, (2 years) and the gap between SSBM and SSBB. (7 years) 2+7 is 9. Then I divide them by 2 to find the average, which was 4.5, or 4 years and 6 months if you will, and then I round it up to 5, but not letting the .5 be taken away. Since the day of this post is the last day of May, and there are also 31 days in December (6 months away) I come to the ending of Fall 2014/Early 2015.
 

ToiseOfChoice

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@Kuma: I didn't say it was the same. I said it was closer. More popular series will get more characters, just like how more populus states will get more representatives. Its still not an exact match up, but there are similarities.
I recall making a numbers list that showed how very few series match up in characters compared to popularity via sales (included Melee and Brawl). If memory serves, you basically just said "that's close enough to what I'm saying" even though it was way off.


Anyways, Pikachu, Jiggs, Mewtwo, PT, Lucario, and 5th/6th/whatever gen, rep IS too much for Pokemon, because that's simply too many Pokemon. Popular series get more characters, but there's a limit given to them so that they don't dominante everything. Unless other series expand in an equally large amount, there's too many Pokemon compared to other series, and if you keep on throwing back in cut characters, its going to Super Smash Pokemon. :p
SSB: 2/12 = 16.6% (1/6.0)
Melee: 4/26 = 15.4% (1/6.5)
Brawl: 6/39 = 15.4% (1/6.5)

Assume there's 8 Pokemon and 48-52 characters:

8/48 = 16.6% (1/6.0)
8/52 = 15.4% (1/6.5)

It'd be no more overpopulated than any other game in the series. Having Mewtwo, Lucario, and a new guy would be fine.


@Kuma: At times like these, you should be hunting great beasties with your friends on the Wii.
 

Arcadenik

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These character discussions, especially with Pieman involved, are depressing.
You know, that's an interesting statement to make... why do you feel that way?

Character discussions about my most wanted characters and potential newcomers from new franchises are depressing with and without Pieman involved. It makes me feel like we are going to see a boring and generic roster for SSB4: all 35 characters return plus Bowser Jr., King K. Rool, Toon Zelda, Ridley, Little Mac, Samurai Goroh, Krystal, Mewtwo, Roy, and Mega Man.
 

ToiseOfChoice

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Kuma likes gameplay. Also Pieman is pretty quick to point out reasons why a character shouldn't get in, even if the quality of his arguments varies wildly with each case.
 

Big-Cat

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@Kuma: At times like these, you should be hunting great beasties with your friends on the Wii.
I've been mostly playing SSF4, playing SMG 2 (a masterpiece by the way), and keeping fort at home. I might get Monster Hunter Tri, but when I get back to school I won't be able to get into it because my school only has ethernet for consoles. I have no plans on getting the ethernet adapter.

You know, that's an interesting statement to make... why do you feel that way?
It's a cycle. I feel that the character discussions never really accomplish much of anything.

Kuma likes gameplay. Also Pieman is pretty quick to point out reasons why a character shouldn't get in, even if the quality of his arguments varies wildly with each case.
Yep, I'd much rather have a gameplay discussion, but I don't want to impose it on anyone. Part of the reason I want to discuss gameplay is that I'll more than likely go into game development in the future so I'm trying to think of the SSB that'll please as many people as possible.

And yes, Pieman isn't exactly known for the best arguments.
 

Arcadenik

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It's a cycle. I feel that the character discussions never really accomplish much of anything.
Well, to be fair, character discussions usually end when said characters actually become playable. But if said characters are confirmed to be bosses, Assist Trophies, or just plain unplayable, expect to see the same character discussions continue for the sequel and so on.
 

Big-Cat

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Except we don't have another SSB game knowingly in the works so that's irrelevant.
 

Starphoenix

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Character discussion doesn't have to be depressing. We can discuss Elza and Kanan like Smashchu began to a couple pages ago.
 

Big-Cat

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I guess I stand corrected. We need to discuss previously undiscussed characters. The only problem with discussing Elza and Kanan is that we know barely anything about them in order to make a discussion about them.
 

Arcadenik

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Except we don't have another SSB game knowingly in the works so that's irrelevant.
Yes I know, but even before Brawl was officially announced we were discussing SSB3 for years right after Melee came out. Remember all those debates we had over the characters before some of them actually became playable/unplayable? Almost overnight, virtually all debates stopped when some of the discussed characters became playable/unplayable... but of course, as soon Brawl came out, we started discussing about the characters who didn't make the cut in Brawl for SSB4...
 

BBQTV

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i would rather have the roster boring then to have duck hunt dog in the next smash
 

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I guess I stand corrected. We need to discuss previously undiscussed characters. The only problem with discussing Elza and Kanan is that we know barely anything about them in order to make a discussion about them.
At least in Kanan's case we know she can use magic. Fire so far.
 

Big-Cat

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Speaking of which, where can I find some info on this game?
 

Fatmanonice

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How has that stopped anyone in the past? Pit wasn't very relevant until he got into Smash. We would have never said Ike was relevant if he wasn't in Brawl.
Ike was revelant with Brawl because when Brawl began production in 2005, Path of Radiance was the latest installment in the Fire Emblem franchise. Keep in mind that Ike was also one of the main characters in Radiant Dawn which was released in 2007. Pit, the Ice Climbers, ROB, and Mr. Game and Watch didn't have to be relevant because their franchises were long dead. In comparison, Fire Emblem has never gone without a game for more than a generation.
 

Arcadenik

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i would rather have the roster boring then to have duck hunt dog in the next smash
Singling out the Duck Hunt Dog once again... gotta love that. :rolleyes:

Sure, let's be conservative with the roster because we hate imaginative and fresh characters.
 

ToiseOfChoice

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Character discussions about my most wanted characters and potential newcomers from new franchises are depressing with and without Pieman involved. It makes me feel like we are going to see a boring and generic roster for SSB4: all 35 characters return plus Bowser Jr., King K. Rool, Toon Zelda, Ridley, Little Mac, Samurai Goroh, Krystal, Mewtwo, Roy, and Mega Man.
Singling out the Duck Hunt Dog once again... gotta love that. :rolleyes:

Sure, let's be conservative with the roster because we hate imaginative and fresh characters.
Probable =/= Boring, Generic, Expected

Very few people obsess over the chances of new characters as we do in this thread. What we expect tends to come out of nowhere for everyone else, especially when most aren't familiar with a fraction of what Nintendo has available.

Also likelihood bears no relation to how "imaginative and fresh" a character ends up being. Ridley is a good bet and he's a ****ing space pirate dragon. Duck Hunt Dog has no chance and also sucks completely.
 

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I'd like to add that Brawl pretty much had one character who came out from left field and that was ROB who still had a decent number of cameos in recent games. Everyone else (aside from Snake who was revealed when the game was first announced) was largely expected so, yes, SSB4 will probably follow suit when it comes to its characters. Everyone else had a decent amount of demand behind them and were decently known aside by those who's knowledge of Nintendo barely extends past Mario and Pokemon. If anything a lot more people were surprized by who didn't make it in rather than those that did.

I'm still a Geno fanboy but I know his chances for SSB4 are virtually nothing unless something comes along in the next 2-3 years. This doesn't really bother me though because, has Brawl has shown, you have a number of fans that are so dedicated that they're willing to hack the characters that didn't make the cut into the game. If you had told me in 2006 that fans were going to bypass Nintendo completely and hack Cloud, Goku, and Naruto into Brawl I would have punched you in the face but they've made it into a reality. Heck, it's been done for Geno twice and a third, completely from scratch project is currently in the works right now. SSB4 will probably be the same way except, by the time it comes, there will be even more knowledge on how to make legitimate and fully functional characters and put them in the game.

With this being said, there's really no sense in bemoaning characters not making it because if you can gartner enough support, somebody will eventually just hack them in. I know you've been pushing for the Duck Hunt Dog to show up in Smash Bros since at least 2005 (as long as I've been pushing for Geno) when I met you on the old Nsider forums but you really should come to terms with this. His chances probably are craptastic so, if I were you, I would be more concerned about finding people with hacking skills who share your interests than trying to convince people that he will show up. As I said before, Nintendo's mostly going to cater to the wishes of the main stream so hoping things will play out in your favor is definitely not the best route to go especially when you consider how Nintendo only hears what the majority wants and how these little conversations we have here never even reach their ears.
 

Arcadenik

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Fatman, you forgot Pokemon Trainer. No one seriously thought he would be in. I remember many people were outright against the idea of playing as Red because he never fought and they pretty much equalize him with Ash Ketchum from the Pokemon anime. So to them, Red = Ash and Ash = Fail therefore Red = Fail. Not to mention that there were debates about which starters would get in... many people were crying for Charizard and, after Ruby/Sapphire came out, they forgot about Charizard and cried for Blaziken. I remember telling them that why should Charizard or Blaziken get in over the other starters? What makes Charizard or Blaziken more important than the other starters and they used the anime to support their arguments. As it turned out, Charizard is playable but he is not the only starter as Squirtle and Ivysaur came along to remind everyone that all starters are equally important but not equally popular. Importance =/= Popularity was the point of Pokemon Trainer and his Pokemon.

I think Zero Suit Samus should be included in the same group with those who were not really expected. I don't remember Zero Suit Samus as being expected. I mean, while practically everyone were orgasming for the idea of playing as Ridley I remember suggesting a suitless Samus for SSB3 back in 2003 or 2004 and that was before I played Metroid: Zero Mission. I never seriously thought she would be in since it was a throwaway suggestion and practically everyone ignored my suggestion.

So, the unexpected characters in Brawl would have to be Zero Suit Samus, Snake, Pokemon Trainer, and R.O.B. while everyone else were expected with varying degrees. Also, what was unexpected was the removal of Dr. Mario, Pichu, Roy, Young Link, and Mewtwo when virtually everyone assumed that everyone from Melee would return. Right now, it is expected that everyone from Brawl will return in SSB4 but what if some characters from Brawl are removed in SSB4? My generic roster includes everyone from Brawl, you know...

Also, it was kinda funny how some of the newcomers in Brawl had some sort of flaws that people viewed and determined that they shouldn't or wouldn't be in Brawl like:

* Toon Link shouldn't be in because his cel-shading graphics won't fit with Brawl's realistic graphics
* Olimar is too tiny that it would be hard to see him on the stage so he shouldn't be playable
* Pit is too obscure to be playable because he only had two games in 1986 and 1991
* Wolf would be a clone of Fox therefore Krystal should be in over him (irony)
* Lucas shouldn't be in because we don't want Lucas to replace Ness like Sakurai planned to do in Melee
* Sonic shouldn't be in because he doesn't have any moves because all he does is run and spin

We are doing the same thing with potential newcomers for SSB4...

* Toad shouldn't be in because he is generic and doesn't have his own signature moves and he is not as important as he used to be
* Starfy shouldn't be in because all he does is spin
* Krystal shouldn't be in because Sakurai could turn her into another Fox clone
* Black Shadow shouldn't be in because he would be a clone of Ganondorf and we want Samurai Goroh
* Samurai Goroh probably won't be in because F-Zero is dead
* Takamaru shouldn't be in because we want Samurai Goroh as the samurai character
* Little Mac shouldn't be in because he has nothing but punches
* Dixie Kong probably won't be in because she is no longer important in the Donkey Kong games
* King K. Rool probably won't be in because the Donkey Kong games are not as popular as they used to
* Mewtwo probably won't be in because Sakurai removed him in Brawl and he is not important in newer Pokemon games
* Meowth shouldn't be in because he is not important in the Pokemon games
* Roy probably won't be in because Sakurai removed him in Brawl and his game wasn't popular
* Tingle shouldn't be in because Americans hate Tingle and he is Japan-only now
* and many others that I don't want to bother listing

I realize that the chances for the Duck Hunt Dog appearing is probably the same as Geno. I guess if the dog appears in more cameos and/or Duck Hunt gets a sequel, then he would be more probable.
 

Cyn

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I have to admit, even though I'm against DHD, there is something very satisfying in the thought of beating the crap out of him.
 

Pieman0920

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I recall making a numbers list that showed how very few series match up in characters compared to popularity via sales (included Melee and Brawl). If memory serves, you basically just said "that's close enough to what I'm saying" even though it was way off.
Actually, your list kind of reaffirmed it for me given the situations that most series are in (Lack of recent DK market and lack of viable Metroid/F-Zero characters being issues here) although there was one screwy problem that I don't think can be explained in the form of Star Fox. What baffles me even more about that series is that Sakurai didn't seem to know anything about it beyond SF64 while he was starting up on Brawl. =/


SSB: 2/12 = 16.6% (1/6.0)
Melee: 4/26 = 15.4% (1/6.5)
Brawl: 6/39 = 15.4% (1/6.5)

Assume there's 8 Pokemon and 48-52 characters:

8/48 = 16.6% (1/6.0)
8/52 = 15.4% (1/6.5)

It'd be no more overpopulated than any other game in the series. Having Mewtwo, Lucario, and a new guy would be fine.
He was also suggesting that Pichu get in too. :urg:

Anyways, I still think its a really bad idea to give them 8, even if the alternative I'm thinking of is 7. There really should be a tighter limit on this one.


And anyways, character discussions don't get anywhere, but neither does anything else that we really talk about here. We're not developing a game after all, so any proposed gameplay mechanic, tweek to the system, additional mode, extra music track, or anything like that has any real meaning other than just throwing it out there. Now while you might get depressed about that, just remember that this is all just for fun and lighten up. :p

EDIT: Arc's right. PT came out of left field, and no one expected him in the slightest. There were a select few who thought Red would get in, and fight on his own, but no one saw the PT coming. Also Wolf was a fairly large surprise, since he didn't have as many supporters as Krystal, and most people thought he'd turn out to be a clone. (And remember, back then people thought there would be no more clones)

And Fatman, the whole thing about the hacking community getting in half-baked SE/Anime characters into Smash by screwing about with how Ike looks/plays isn't that inspiring. (Plus I find it highly insulting to the developers, but that's just me)
 

JHillier

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I would like to see these characters in the next brawl

Mario - Luigi - Peach - Bowser - Mini Bowser - Dr Mario - Boo - Petey Pirranha - Donkey kong - Diddy kong - Cranky kong (Jokes) - Kritter - King K Rool - Yoshi - Wario - Link - Young Link - Zelda/Shiek - Ganondorf - Samus - Zero Suit Samus - Rundas - Gandrayda - Trace - Spire - Pit - Ice Climbers - R.O.B - Kirby - Meta-Knight - King Dedede - Olimar - Louie - Fox - Falco - Wolf - Peppy - Cpt Falcon - Pikachu - Lucario - Squirtle - Ivysaur - Charizard - Infernape - - Jigglypuff - Marth - Roy - ike - Ness - Lucas - Mr Game and Watch - Snake - Sonic - Shadow - Tails - Dark Samus
 

Pieman0920

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...I'm not going to coment on some of the worse things about that character list, but rather express my profound surprise, that it contains Young Link, Dr. Mario, Pichu, and Roy, but no Mewtwo. :V
 

Big-Cat

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Actually, your list kind of reaffirmed it for me given the situations that most series are in (Lack of recent DK market and lack of viable Metroid/F-Zero characters being issues here) although there was one screwy problem that I don't think can be explained in the form of Star Fox. What baffles me even more about that series is that Sakurai didn't seem to know anything about it beyond SF64 while he was starting up on Brawl. =/
This was epic fail on Sakurai's part. Nothing in the stages or characters has a reference to post-64 outside of the easter eggs and trophies. Definitely a case of Did Not Do The Research which is quite ironic considering he wanted to please as many people as possible.

And anyways, character discussions don't get anywhere, but neither does anything else that we really talk about here. We're not developing a game after all, so any proposed gameplay mechanic, tweek to the system, additional mode, extra music track, or anything like that has any real meaning other than just throwing it out there. Now while you might get depressed about that, just remember that this is all just for fun and lighten up. :p
The whole depressing thing was hyperbole. I just get bored when the conversation goes to something previously discussed quite a number of times extensively. Anyway though, to some, small extent, we sort of are developing the game. Think about it, someone could come by, seeing the ideas discussed and like it, and then it spread around the gaming forums. The chances of that happening for anything particular are low, imo, but still.

EDIT: Arc's right. PT came out of left field, and no one expected him in the slightest. There were a select few who thought Red would get in, and fight on his own, but no one saw the PT coming. Also Wolf was a fairly large surprise, since he didn't have as many supporters as Krystal, and most people thought he'd turn out to be a clone. (And remember, back then people thought there would be no more clones)

And Fatman, the whole thing about the hacking community getting in half-baked SE/Anime characters into Smash by screwing about with how Ike looks/plays isn't that inspiring. (Plus I find it highly insulting to the developers, but that's just me)
I remember seeing the Pokemon Trainer's name on the Dojo the day he was announced. Before I went down to see the picture, I was starting to wonder how the heck he would work. I definitely didn't see him working the way he was implemented. Wolf was another surprise, but then so was the lack of Krystal and Ridley, two characters that were considered shoo-ins. The clone thing also reminds me that the opposite can happen too for any given character.

The SE and anime characters, while originally starting as mostly Ike mods, have been developed further. I remember seeing an Ichigo mod where they imported a model from one of the Bleach Wii games into Brawl. Then there's work involved in getting the Assist Trophy characters as playable characters.
 

BBQTV

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i love how people think Krystal and Ridley would be shoe ins. like i never would think that they would get in and i think it makes sense
 

Cyn

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i love how people think Krystal and Ridley would be shoe ins. like i never would think that they would get in and i think it makes sense
Krystal atleast has some sort of chance. As much as I'd love to see Ridley, Duck Hunt Dog has better chances.

Hehe, another shot at DHD.
 

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^Best be trollin' vox.

Anyways @ Kuma: The best idea for that is to actually go around and spread the ideas in different forums then. I very much doubt that most people take the ideas from here and spread them around, especially from the very vast and meaty center of this topic. Otherwise, you'd just have to keep restating everything every page or so in the off chance that someone will click on the last page of the topic and see it.
 

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He was also suggesting that Pichu get in too. :urg:
Hey I was not advocating Pichu return, I was simply stating that if the second generation was to receive some type of character due to HG/SS the most likely option would be Pichu. Not that I want him in or expect him.
 

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Hey I was not advocating Pichu return, I was simply stating that if the second generation was to receive some type of character due to HG/SS the most likely option would be Pichu. Not that I want him in or expect him.
Why the Pichu hate D:
I think a notch ear/pikachu color tag team would be dandy! Just fix some of the flaws pichu had in melee. Like killing itself >.>

Once again we can always advocate Suicune :D
I would love to play as "her" she is sort of the most popular dog. At least it seems like it. I mean entei was at one point. But suicune has her own little story line in HG/SS along with being in the thirteenth movie. I just like the idea of a compassionate pokemon. Good balance against Mewtwo.
 

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Technically, as long as you don't mass produce it, or try to sell it, you can do anything to the game you want as long as you legally bought it so I personally don't think hacking in characters is an insult towards the developers. Also, even though it's only been done for about a year now, the hacked characters aren't all too bad and play pretty well. Usually the people who make characters are a lot more knowledgable and a lot more dedicated towards their work so, as opposed to character textures and stage hacks, there's more quality control in that sector. I've been impressed by what I've seen so far and it gives me full confidence that SSB4 could end up with hacked characters that are almost indistinguishable from those that were naturally in the game. Like I said earlier, two or three years from now I can actually see that happening.
 

Pieman0920

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Well sparing the ethics behind it, I can't possibly see how you think that hacked characters can be indistinguishable. Truthfully I don't know all that much about the more advanced ones, and thus I would like to request a good example of what you think has the most quality, but from the odd few that I do see here and there, they are pretty sloppily intergrated, and certainly noticable. For one, mostly every new character I've seen has moves taken from other characters, and if the model was actually imported from another game, its garishly obvious that it should be there in Smash. Then again, with all the hacked in music and stage textures, I guess it may seem just as at home as anything else in what has essnetially boiled down to MUGEN 2.0.

But as I said, I don't pay all that much attention to the hacking scene, so if there really is some quality work coming from it, I'd really be interested to know.
 

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they made a Cloud moveset swap to Ike and i cant play as him in the library with the original moveset (also sephiroth was made for marth and it was made even worse, not flexible like usual, i am forced to play as the chars that weren't tampered with)

i don't know where this came from but cloud can shoot a fireball... how did the hackers do that? if they can really do that, then technically, they can do anything they want... unless... it could be the image of the explosion bomb thing but i don't truly think so.

(just curious, did anybody even read the thing i was talking about approx. 4 pages ago about Ultimate Super Smash Bros Melee?
 

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Why the Pichu hate D:
I think a notch ear/pikachu color tag team would be dandy! Just fix some of the flaws pichu had in melee. Like killing itself >.>

Once again we can always advocate Suicune :D
I would love to play as "her" she is sort of the most popular dog. At least it seems like it. I mean entei was at one point. But suicune has her own little story line in HG/SS along with being in the thirteenth movie. I just like the idea of a compassionate pokemon. Good balance against Mewtwo.
Ironically enough, Suicune got the game, Entei got a Movie, and Raikou got a TV subseries (granted it was terribly awful). The Dog trio got more attention than any of the other trio's..though I do suppose Suicune could be more popular.

Well sparing the ethics behind it, I can't possibly see how you think that hacked characters can be indistinguishable. Truthfully I don't know all that much about the more advanced ones, and thus I would like to request a good example of what you think has the most quality, but from the odd few that I do see here and there, they are pretty sloppily intergrated, and certainly noticable. For one, mostly every new character I've seen has moves taken from other characters, and if the model was actually imported from another game, its garishly obvious that it should be there in Smash. Then again, with all the hacked in music and stage textures, I guess it may seem just as at home as anything else in what has essnetially boiled down to MUGEN 2.0.

But as I said, I don't pay all that much attention to the hacking scene, so if there really is some quality work coming from it, I'd really be interested to know.
Ah when I pressed quote I had an exaple...but I forgot it now...there was a really good hack of Young Link wih a few minor errors...and I've seen some other good ones, I assure you. I'll check out the Workshop later and see if I can find them. Kitty Corp (I think that was the name) has a large collection of Brawl Hacks.
 

ToiseOfChoice

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Actually, your list kind of reaffirmed it for me given the situations that most series are in (Lack of recent DK market and lack of viable Metroid/F-Zero characters being issues here) although there was one screwy problem that I don't think can be explained in the form of Star Fox. What baffles me even more about that series is that Sakurai didn't seem to know anything about it beyond SF64 while he was starting up on Brawl. =/
If we're going by series' "recent situations," then it still doesn't justify why Samurai Goroh was never considered, why Wario just now got into the game, why Kirby was the only series aside from Pokemon to get two new characters, why Wolf got in over Dixie, why FE was planned for three characters, why Sonic is here (poll numbers aside), etc.

Or scroll it back a bit, why Mac never made it in 64/Melee when Punch-Out had done better than even Metroid at that point (and don't give that "he doesn't have moves" bit), why Zelda had its full cast present by Melee when DK didn't even have Diddy, why Mother is present at all, and so on.

Anywho, series performance, be it recent or lifetime, isn't as much of a factor as you want it to be. I don't want to have to dig out numbers again to prove it to you but I feel like you're gonna try and justify every example I listed anyway.


He was also suggesting that Pichu get in too. :urg:

Anyways, I still think its a really bad idea to give them 8, even if the alternative I'm thinking of is 7. There really should be a tighter limit on this one.
I still maintain that Pichu would work perfectly as an alt model. That was basically the whole point of clones to begin with; characters with the same size/shape/abilities as their base.

And yeah, 8 might be too many Pokemon for a lot of people (especially someone like you who'd prefer more new series). Still a realistic figure though.
 

Big-Cat

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I believe Toise said it best a while back, "It's not so much the series of origin that is important for a character than it is the character itself."Obviously not verbatim, but the point still stands.

Come to think of it though, I would like to know what the priorities are for some of these inclusions. I believe the lack of Dedede and MK was due to Sakurai trying to be modest (some would say otherwise in Brawl), and that they were included in Brawl partially because Brawl could have very well been the last time to work with those characters again since he was still freelancing at the time.

I'm guessing others such as Wario and Diddy were excluded from Melee because of time considering they only had somewhere around a year and a half to work on it. If we exclude the clones, the newcomers were Bowser, Peach, Zelda, Sheik, Ice Climbers, Marth, Mewtwo, and Mr. Game and Watch, only nine newcomers before the decision to add clones (maybe).

An explanation for the first three (and arguably Sheik) aren't really needed. Ice Climbers was the chosen retro character, Marth I'm not sure of (can't complain though), Mewtwo is just Mewtwo, and Mr. Game and Watch was, IIRC, a tribute to Gunpei Yokoi.

In the case of Young Link and Ganondorf, those two were clones (should've been better handled in Brawl, IMO) of pre-existing characters thus explaining their inclusion in Melee. Everyone else was more or less, "Meh, we can do it."

Sorry, but I'm just rambling here.
 

Fatmanonice

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Well sparing the ethics behind it, I can't possibly see how you think that hacked characters can be indistinguishable. Truthfully I don't know all that much about the more advanced ones, and thus I would like to request a good example of what you think has the most quality, but from the odd few that I do see here and there, they are pretty sloppily intergrated, and certainly noticable. For one, mostly every new character I've seen has moves taken from other characters, and if the model was actually imported from another game, its garishly obvious that it should be there in Smash. Then again, with all the hacked in music and stage textures, I guess it may seem just as at home as anything else in what has essnetially boiled down to MUGEN 2.0.

But as I said, I don't pay all that much attention to the hacking scene, so if there really is some quality work coming from it, I'd really be interested to know.
Which ones have I been impressed with? My short list:

BigSharkZ's Mewtwo

Eldiran's Zero

Shadic's Geno

Akari Un's Cloud

Keep in mind that I've been following the PSA scene closely ever since Phatomwings released Phoenix Mario, the first PSA, last summer. As you can see, things have come a pretty long way since last year. Are the characters still kind of gritty? Yes but you have to keep in mind that they're not being made by professionals. They're not perfect by any means but give it a couple of more years and I'm sure there will be stuff that will rival what was originally put in the game. Also, I never said they were indistinguishable now but I believe they have the potential to become that way eventually.

I believe Toise said it best a while back, "It's not so much the series of origin that is important for a character than it is the character itself."Obviously not verbatim, but the point still stands.

Come to think of it though, I would like to know what the priorities are for some of these inclusions. I believe the lack of Dedede and MK was due to Sakurai trying to be modest (some would say otherwise in Brawl), and that they were included in Brawl partially because Brawl could have very well been the last time to work with those characters again since he was still freelancing at the time.

I'm guessing others such as Wario and Diddy were excluded from Melee because of time considering they only had somewhere around a year and a half to work on it. If we exclude the clones, the newcomers were Bowser, Peach, Zelda, Sheik, Ice Climbers, Marth, Mewtwo, and Mr. Game and Watch, only nine newcomers before the decision to add clones (maybe).

An explanation for the first three (and arguably Sheik) aren't really needed. Ice Climbers was the chosen retro character, Marth I'm not sure of (can't complain though), Mewtwo is just Mewtwo, and Mr. Game and Watch was, IIRC, a tribute to Gunpei Yokoi.

In the case of Young Link and Ganondorf, those two were clones (should've been better handled in Brawl, IMO) of pre-existing characters thus explaining their inclusion in Melee. Everyone else was more or less, "Meh, we can do it."

Sorry, but I'm just rambling here.
I've shown this several times before in the past but most of the new characters that appeared in Melee (Bowser, Peach, Zelda, Young Link, Ganondorf, Sheik, Marth, Falco, and Mewtwo) did very well in the Melee poll and ranked high in their respective categories. Pichu represented the most recent Pokemon generation, Roy represented the most recent Fire Emblem game, the Ice Climbers were retro and appeared on the poll too, and Mr. Game and Watch kind of came out of left field. Dr. Mario, from what's been said, was the only character that was added simply because "he felt like it."

With Brawl, I believe a lot of the characters selected strongly correlated to the Melee poll and were essentially "left overs." Wario, Pokemon Trainer, Diddy, King Dedede, Metaknight, Wolf, Pit, and Sonic appeared on the Melee poll and all except Wolf and Pit had a large number of votes towards them (usually ranking just below the characters that actually made it into Melee). Snake was a supposed Melee leftover because Kojima approached Sakurai too late about Snake's inclusion during Melee's development. Lucario represented the most recent pokemon generation, Ike represented the most recent Fire Emblem game, Lucas was originally planned to replace Ness in Melee but Sakurai got cold feet, Olimar represented the only major Miyamoto franchise that wasn't represented by someone at the time, ZSS was an extension of Samus, and ROB came out of left field.

There's a lot of other stuff that he's explained for a good number of characters (for example, Ganondorf wouldn't have even added to Melee if his body type wasn't so similar to Captain Falcon) but I just wanted to leave this as food for thought.
 

Big-Cat

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I was referring to the priority in who seemed to get in. Yes, all the clones, save for Roy obviously, were high on the polls, but that was not what I was getting at. IIRC, but wasn't Pichu also pretty popular, at the time at least?

As for the "leftovers" thing, if your theory is right on how he used that for most of the inclusions in Brawl, I'll be amazed that he used an old statistic instead of getting a more up to date one with the requests he got during Brawl's development.
 
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