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[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

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LuVr

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I have a whole list of characters that I think could work for Smash Bros. 4:
- K. Rool [seriously underappreciated mater villain of the Donkey Kong series]
- Pichu [weak, but a helluva lot of fun to play]
- Dr. Mario [clones are okay, I mean they didn't hurt anything]
- Geno [To this day, I still curse Square Enix for not letting him stay in Brawl]
- Roy [I miss his firey sword]
- Waluigi [he may as well join]
- Toad/Toadsworth [Stop making Toad Princess Peach's counter and give him a place already.. or just make Toadsworth beat people with his cane]
- Birdo [hahahahaha]
- Mewtwo [I was P-Oed when they took him out... wayy more ****** than Lucario]
 

BBQTV

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look


you could argue till the cows come home why character x should be in or character y should not be in. but in the end the maker will put whoever he wants whether they deserve it or not
 

Pieman0920

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If we're going by series' "recent situations," then it still doesn't justify why Samurai Goroh was never considered, why Wario just now got into the game, why Kirby was the only series aside from Pokemon to get two new characters, why Wolf got in over Dixie, why FE was planned for three characters, why Sonic is here (poll numbers aside), etc.
On Wario...I'm never quite certain with Sakurai, but going by how the Wario series was represented in Brawl, its possible he didn't actually take the old Wario Land series into account, which is somewhat reinforced by the fact that he seems to downplay portable games, thogh I could be wrong with that last thing. In any case, he represented it under the Mario series, instead of splitting it up as its own like the Yoshi series, for whatever reason. Thus Wario not getting in until Brawl could be on a count of a character limit given to the Mario series/it was easier to just make Dr. Mario.

Goroh never being considered is probably because of the same reason that no real F-Zero character seems to be considered, which is that they are just racers. While Goroh could pottentially be made into a fighter, its still something that would have to be made from scratch, which is a pretty rare thing. (If you ask me, Cap's moveset seems to be a clear reuse of the resources Sakurai generated whith Ryuoh, which probably half explains how he got in the original) Plus, GX's sales seem to be...well actually I'm not sure. VGChartz says they were low, but its clearly missing data.

Kirby just got two because it had the characters and popularity for it, while more popular series such as Mario and Zelda already seemed to reach the maximum character slot cap that Sakurai seemed to have imposed. It was technically planned that DK get a second character (though it may have been a IC or Zelda/Sheik kind of deal) and Pokemon lost two characters to get its two new (or 4 counting movesets) ones. I already said that I don't have a clue what Sakurai is doing with the SF series, but Dixie didn't get in over Wolf due to technical issues. And while FE had three planned at some point, that's still not what happened, though I suppose the reasons why may be important here. As for Sonic...I'm not following you. If you go by sales, he's the 8th highest selling video game franchise, and his sales, while lower than in their peak, were still good at the time. Its not like they added four or more characters when he was included either.

Or scroll it back a bit, why Mac never made it in 64/Melee when Punch-Out had done better than even Metroid at that point (and don't give that "he doesn't have moves" bit), why Zelda had its full cast present by Melee when DK didn't even have Diddy, why Mother is present at all, and so on.
Well I think I can reffer to my statements that incluence of sales is biased towards recent sales, plus a possibility that Sakurai views the Yoshi, DK, and Wario f (Mother is probably there due to Earthbound 64 prospects, har har har)

Anywho, series performance, be it recent or lifetime, isn't as much of a factor as you want it to be. I don't want to have to dig out numbers again to prove it to you but I feel like you're gonna try and justify every example I listed anyway.
:mad: Get out of my head! :mad:


I still maintain that Pichu would work perfectly as an alt model. That was basically the whole point of clones to begin with; characters with the same size/shape/abilities as their base.
He could be put in like that, but he certainly couldn't be put in as a perfect reskin of Pikachu. Pichu's anatomy is different, so while he could share all the moves, and not have the whole gimick of shocking itself, it would still be either different, or be one ugly/deformed Pichu.

@ Fatman

Mewtwo: Bleh

Zero: Actually, this looks pretty interesting. A lot of work must have went into that. Its certainly not indistinguishable, since its clearly Link which what looks like ZSS's hair, and the moveset seems to be all retooled things from other characters, but it is a impressive effort.

Geno: Kind of Zero...but a bit worse. The moves with original animation were clearly choppy though.

Cloud: ...I can't tell what's happening some times here.
 

Fatmanonice

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I was referring to the priority in who seemed to get in. Yes, all the clones, save for Roy obviously, were high on the polls, but that was not what I was getting at. IIRC, but wasn't Pichu also pretty popular, at the time at least?

As for the "leftovers" thing, if your theory is right on how he used that for most of the inclusions in Brawl, I'll be amazed that he used an old statistic instead of getting a more up to date one with the requests he got during Brawl's development.
These are the Melee poll results:

Super Mario series:

(1) Koopa: 169 (Bowser)
(2) Princess Peach: 66
(3) Wario: 65
(4) Kinopio: 27 (Toad)
(5) Nokonoko: 9 (Koopa Troopa)
(6) Kamec: 8 (Magikoopa)
(7) Kuribou: 7 (Goomba)
(8) Mallow (Mario RPG): 5
(9) Geno (Mario RPG): 5
(10) Baby Mario: 3

Pocket Monsters series:

(1) Mewtwo: 35
(2) Mew: 24
(3) Satoshi (main character): 18
(4) someone from Pokemon: 12
(5) Lugia: 11
(6) Nyarth: 8 (Meowth)
(7) Raichu: 7
(8) Maril: 5
(9) Fushigidane: 5 (Bulbasaur)
(10) Togepy: 5

Legend of Zelda series:

(1) Ganon (including Ganondorf): 36
(2) Young Link: 8
(2) Princess Zelda: 8
(2) Sheik: 8
(5) Dark Link: 2

Kirby of the Stars series:

(1) Great King Dedede: 46
(2) Gooey: 17
(3) Meta Knight: 11
(4) someone of Kirby's comrades: 10
(5) Waddle Dee: 3

Mother series:

(1) Dosei-san: 18 (Mr. Saturn)
(2) Poo: 6
(3) main character of Mother 2, etc: 4 (Earthbound)
(3) Paula: 4
(5) Starman: 3
(5) Jeff: 3

Star Fox:

(1) Falco: 7
(2) Slippy: 5
(3) Wolf: 4
(4) Peppy: 2

Fire Emblem series:

(1) Marth: 21
(2) someone from Fire Emblem: 18
(3) Oguma: 8
(4) Celice: 4
(5) Siglud: 2
(5) Leaf: 2

Rare:

(1) 007 James Bond: 35
(2) Banjo & Kazooie: 18
(3) Diddy Kong: 15
(4) Blast Dozer robot (nothing specific): 2 (Blast Corps)
(4) 006 Trevelyan: 2

various Famicom / Super Famicom forces (NES / SNES):

(1) Sukapon (Joy Mecha Fight): 15
(2) Lip (Panel de Pon): 9
(3) Prince Richard (The Bell Tolls for the Frog): 8
(4) Metroid (Metroid series): 6
(4) Blacky (Wrecking Crew): 6 (Spike)
(6) Pit-kun (Parthena's Mirror): 5 ((Kid Icarus))
(6) main character of Shin Onigashima: 5
(6) main characters of Marvelous: 5
(9) Samurai Goroh (F-ZERO): 4
(9) Popo & Nana (Ice Climber): 4
(9) main character of Balloon Fight: 4

Third Party:

(1) Chocobo: 9
(2) Doraemon: 7
(3) Bomberman: 5
(4) Crash Bandicoot: 4
(5) Sonic: 3
(5) Rockman: 3 (Mega Man
)

As for the "old statistics", if it was true I don't think it was a bad move on his part because nearly all the characters I mentioned were still popular when Brawl began development. As for why he chose certain characters, this is what we know:

Dr. Mario- Liked his theme (Fever).

Peach- No details given.

Bowser- Planned for the original game.

Ganondorf- Said that he wouldn't have been added if his body type wasn't so similar to Captain Falcon.

Falco- No details given.

Ice Climbers- Wanted a retro character and liked how they worked compared to other characters (Urban champion, Bubbles, Balloon Fighter, and Excite Biker) he was considering.

Zelda- No details given.

Shiek- See above.

Young Link- See above.

Pichu- Literally a joke character.

Mewtwo- Was originally planned for the first game.

Mr. Game and Watch- Has a lot of respect for Gunpei Yokoi but doesn't say this is the reason GaW was added.

Marth- No details given.

Roy- Used specifically to promote the next Fire Emblem game.


Diddy Kong- No details given.

Wario- No details given.

Toon Link- No details given.

Zero Suit Samus- Wanted to add more female characters.

Pit- Was considered for Melee but the developers had issues with not only programming "flying" characters but also deciding how to make them fair since most characters recoveries were limited at the time.

ROB- No details given.

Metaknight- Same as Pit and he didn't want to give his characters more spaces at the time Melee was in development simply because he was the director.

King Dedede- Was planned for the original game. Also, like Metaknight with Melee, he didn't want to showboat his own creations.

Olimar- No details given.

Wolf- No details given.

Pokemon Trainer- No details given.

Lucario- No details given.

Ike- No details given.

Lucas- Was originally planned to replace Ness in Melee but Mother/Earthbound 64 was cancelled.

Snake- Longtime ties with Hideo Kojima and was approached about adding him to Melee.

Sonic- The overwelhming fan demand. Wasn't added into the game until the summer of 2007


Also, I found some juicy tidbits while digging around:

http://www.nintendo.co.jp/n01/n64/software/nus_p_nalj/smash/flash/1009/index.html

In the Ice Climbers’ profile on the Melee site, Sakurai states that they wanted 1 representative from the Famicom / NES era, and that the main characters of Balloon Fight, Urban Champion, Clu Clu Land, and Excite Bike were deemed bad choices due to how limited they are. He then goes on to say how being able to do things is “essential” when selecting characters.

Some people have argued that being currently important in a series doesn’t matter if they were important at some time. This is simply not true, and Sakurai apparently feels the same.

http://www.nintendo.co.jp/n01/n64/software/nus_p_nalj/smash/PostReturn007.html

In one suggestion here, someone asked if he would forget Princess Daisy. Sakurai responded:

“The heroine from Mario Land (GB), right? Nowadays she doesn’t make appearances of that kind.”
 

Big-Cat

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You didn't have to post those, but thank you anyway. Looking at these results though, did strike me. Assuming that he did use these old polls, why was Pit chosen over the apparently more popular Lip?

Still, I think him using a poll for several years ago was a bad move, even if most of the results held true because you run the risk of having data that's out of date when a more recent survey would've ensured characters that came about post Melee. Case in point, Wolf. Yes, the guy's popular, but I'm sure Krystal is more popular, but I don't know how much and she didn't exist at the time (technically).
 

gantrain05

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Ganondorf- Said that he wouldn't have been added if his body type wasn't so similar to Captain Falcon. Bahahahaha! stupidest thing i ever heard, ganondorf > man in a race car any day.
 

ToiseOfChoice

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@Pieman: I have to remind myself that the argument was whether series' performance is a major factor in character's inclusions, what with Kuma's and Fatman's posts above you (the bold is for my own tired eyes, by the way):


- Wario: if he was part of Mario, there would've been no reason not to include him (keeping in mind that during Melee, Mario was still way ahead of Pokemon, so "balance" then wouldn't matter); if he was considered his own series, then he just flat-out didn't want him in because Wario Land was doing great. Either way series performance didn't matter there.

- Goroh: F-Zero did somewhere around Star Fox/FE territory (all of which were better than Mother) between 2001-2006. Also had more content than either series counting the anime. GX has outsold every FE to date except maybe FE3. So clearly it wasn't series performance.

- Kirby series: This one is actually fine, it's really just the fact that it was the ONLY series (aside from Pokemon) to get more than one new character. It'd been doing comparable to Metroid and DK (although with less promotion than Metroid and a better average than DK), but I suppose it's close enough to fit your theory.

- Wolf vs. Dixie: DK has always done better than Star Fox in every regard. Calling her exclusion a matter of technical issues (which wouldn't matter if she was solo like Diddy) means you agree that series performance wasn't the factor here.

- Fire Emblem trio: You conceded this one, right? Gonna assume you did for now.

- Sonic: Was thinking of the usual DK statement you'd make for K. Rool or Dixie in the next game ("the series hasn't been as good as usual"), despite it still doing very well compared to a number of series in Smash. I'll give you this one. Probably shouldn't have even listed him since the focus is on series that actually get more than one character anyway.

- Mac: You skipped it, but Punch-Out still had a comparable but better history than Metroid and outdid both retro series (even predates them). Obviously series performance wasn't stopping Mac back then.

- Zelda vs. DK in Melee: You can make the argument that the two were at least comparable, but DK had the better track record. The only thing Zelda had over DK was that OoT was more recent than DKC1 (and DK64 was no slouch either). Impossible to justify with series performance.

- Mother: Like Fire Emblem in that it's (mostly) JP only with niche sales, but with fewer games. Definitely not series performance.


Anyway, assume Mario (not counting the Wario situation), Pokemon, Kirby, and Metroid fit your theory.

That leaves Zelda (over), DK (under), Wario (under), Star Fox (over), F-Zero (under), Fire Emblem (over), Mother (over).

4 vs. 7, sounds pretty solid to me. Probably helps that most of the roster explanations people believe (including yourself) revolve around the characters themselves rather than the series.
 

Fatmanonice

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You didn't have to post those, but thank you anyway. Looking at these results though, did strike me. Assuming that he did use these old polls, why was Pit chosen over the apparently more popular Lip?

Still, I think him using a poll for several years ago was a bad move, even if most of the results held true because you run the risk of having data that's out of date when a more recent survey would've ensured characters that came about post Melee. Case in point, Wolf. Yes, the guy's popular, but I'm sure Krystal is more popular, but I don't know how much and she didn't exist at the time (technically).
Sakurai has said in the past that he tries to avoid showing favoritism towards Japan and he's largely kept his promise in that regard. Lucas, Marth, and Roy are the only three Japanese exclusive characters Smash Bros has had. In a way, it just leaves Lucas because Marth just recently dropped that status and Roy is no longer in the series.

In regards to Wolf, I've been told that Wolf is more popular in Japan than Krystal but I haven't seen substancial evidence for it.

Ganondorf- Said that he wouldn't have been added if his body type wasn't so similar to Captain Falcon. Bahahahaha! stupidest thing i ever heard, ganondorf > man in a race car any day.
I agree. The fact that he chose him, one of gaming's leading villians, solely on the fact that he saw him as having clone potential kind of insults my intelligence.
 

Big-Cat

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Sakurai has said in the past that he tries to avoid showing favoritism towards Japan and he's largely kept his promise in that regard. Lucas, Marth, and Roy are the only three Japanese exclusive characters Smash Bros has had. In a way, it just leaves Lucas because Marth just recently dropped that status and Roy is no longer in the series.
In regards to Wolf, I've been told that Wolf is more popular in Japan than Krystal but I haven't seen substancial evidence for it.
So apparently, popularity still has top priority in Japan if this is correct? Sounds like a double standard to me.
 

Pieman0920

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- Wario: if he was part of Mario, there would've been no reason not to include him (keeping in mind that during Melee, Mario was still way ahead of Pokemon, so "balance" then wouldn't matter); if he was considered his own series, then he just flat-out didn't want him in because Wario Land was doing great. Either way series performance didn't matter there.
I wouldn't say that there was no reason. Certainly a tthe time, the Wario series was doing great, and Wario was an established character ooutside of Mario, but for whatever reason, Sakurai didn't view his series as a seperate one like the Yoshi one, and Wario was lumped in with the Mario crowd. But when you view it like that, there should be even less reason why someone like Wario be cut right? You said it yourself, in that at the time Pokemon hadn't really caught up yet to total sales, and curent Mario games were still doing great. The problem as I see it, is that Sakurai simply put limits on how much one series could have. You yourself acknowledged that if every series had exact representation based around sales and sales only, then there would be a huge amount of Mario and Pokemon characters running about, and that'd be it. Its clear though that Sakurai puts limits on the popular series though to make sure they don't go out of control. The Mario series there had the largest amount of characters, and thus as Wario was still considered to be part of the Mario series, he got bumped off for later. (Dr. Mario, as said, was just an easy to add in clone. )

- Goroh: F-Zero did somewhere around Star Fox/FE territory (all of which were better than Mother) between 2001-2006. Also had more content than either series counting the anime. GX has outsold every FE to date except maybe FE3. So clearly it wasn't series performance.
Yes, F-Zero has the sales to warent an extra character, but it doesn't quite have the characters. If you go by sales alone, without paying any attention to the characters being added in, we'd at least have two or so different breeds of Nintendogs. F-Zero has more characters than most series, and they generally all have their own unique personality, but they still hide behind their cars for the majority of the games, and unlike the SF crew, aren't talkative. Thus, what you have to do is create an entire moveset from scratch and that seems to be a large, though not impossible to deal with, road block. Captain Falcon probably got through it due to the whole Ryuoh stuff, and I can easily see Goroh making it through next game (and BS probably would have done so in Brawl, if not for Ganny) but its still a lot of effort for something that should already be there in lesser selling series.

As for the anime though, there actually is content there that could be used for a fighting game, especially with Goroh. He actually did use his sword some times to do crazy stereotypical samurai stuff. Why the anime wasn't counted in any real way, I can't quite say, but if you really did want to take the anime into consideration, then you sort of have to push Goroh back a bit, since his role in it wasn't as large.

- Wolf vs. Dixie: DK has always done better than Star Fox in every regard. Calling her exclusion a matter of technical issues (which wouldn't matter if she was solo like Diddy) means you agree that series performance wasn't the factor here.
Its not a matter of me attributing her exclusion based on technical issues, but rather its a given fact at this point. Now while this is just a guess, what probably happened was that they were supposed to work like Zelda and Sheik, but followed each other around like the Ice Climbers thus being close to how they worked in DKC2, but you probably know that this is what I think by now. As it stands this, or whatever the real way Dixie was supposed to be added in, didn't work out, and thus she got excluded. Now in regards to this meaning that the performance had no issue here...yes, it didn't. Some type of error caused it to be messed it up, but I don't really think it hurts the theory, since it was an outside problem.

- Fire Emblem trio: You conceded this one, right? Gonna assume you did for now.
Maybe. It sort of depends on what cut out Roy. If the development team thought that the FE series simply had too much, or there was a crunch for space, I think it would fall in line with my theory. If he was cut for a technical reason, like Dixie's was, then it would go against it.

- Mac: You skipped it, but Punch-Out still had a comparable but better history than Metroid and outdid both retro series (even predates them). Obviously series performance wasn't stopping Mac back then.
I skipped this? I didn't mean to. Anyways, it is curious why Mac was never included. When Sakurai talked about other retro series, he never seemed to mention it. Heck, there are no Punch Out stickers either. Whatever the case though, PO's old sales don't really have much to do with a debate on curent performance, since they had all happened in the NES days. It was a retro series at the time, and prior to Punch Out for the Wii, was one that changed main characters. Retro characters inclusion doesn't seem to work with sales, nor does it seem to work with straight up popularity. I suppose I have to concede that its just random with them, but hopefully Little Mac can get in now since he's not completely retro anymore.

- Zelda vs. DK in Melee: You can make the argument that the two were at least comparable, but DK had the better track record. The only thing Zelda had over DK was that OoT was more recent than DKC1 (and DK64 was no slouch either). Impossible to justify with series performance.
LoZ also had MM come out recently too, as well as the Oracle games and LA Dx, so if you count the sales for the generation, it was doing better overall. Given how this initially got them the addition of Zelda/Sheik, and then latter the two clones, I think it falls in line well enough. This does lead me to another observation though in that DK64 was pretty under represented. While it allegedly got a stage in the form of Jungle Japes, there was no real location like that in the game, and just had the same name for some unknown reason. No real trophies for it either at the time of Melee, though I suppose you could say K.Rool could pottentially have been.

- Mother: Like Fire Emblem in that it's (mostly) JP only with niche sales, but with fewer games. Definitely not series performance.
On further reflection, you're right here. This shouldn't have been series performance, at least with Lucas. Back in the day, Earthbound was pushed as a big game, and Earthbound 64 was coming out (har) so Ness doesn't seem like that odd of a choice if he was all on his own. On his way to Melee though, Sakurai actually stated that he wanted to put in Mother 3's main character in Melee, isntead of Ness, but obviously couldn't. When Lucas finally did get his game, and Brawl came out, he got in and Ness wasn't cut. Thus Lucas probably got in just because Sakurai wanted him to get in, and it didn't matter that much with sales. Still, even though I acknowedge that it was probably just Sakurai, it didn't really screw all too much with the theory, because the previous series that only had one character, but had higher sales (F-Zero, Yoshi, and Metroid I guess) have character issues, which Mother doesn't really.

Anyway, assume Mario (not counting the Wario situation), Pokemon, Kirby, and Metroid fit your theory.

That leaves Zelda (over), DK (under), Wario (under), Star Fox (over), F-Zero (under), Fire Emblem (over), Mother (over).

4 vs. 7, sounds pretty solid to me. Probably helps that most of the roster explanations people believe (including yourself) revolve around the characters themselves rather than the series.
As I said, I don't really think LoZ and DK are wrong when you consider the timeframes. Wario's pottentially under (depends on how your view is on where the series split from Sakurai's perspective) SF is clearly over, F-Zero simply has character issues, and I don't think FE, Mother actually have problems, even if the reasons are dubious for character inclusion. Thus...well its as I said before, the only thing that really doesn't make sense to me here is Star Fox (And Mother, but that worked out) :psycho:
 

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Wolf was still popular here too.
If ya remember, there were still qutie a few people who supported Wolf pre-Brawl, despite the fact that they knew he'd probably be a clone.
I know guys; in fact, I had no problems with his inclusion so long as Krystal was in as well.

It always just struck me though that Krystal was the more popular one. By the way, now that I think about it, we can't really tell how popular she and Wolf are in Japan. Apparently, the Starfox games sell better in the U.S. while not so much in Japan (one thing the guy who did the FMAxStarfox video has mentioned on his DA account).
 

ToiseOfChoice

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@Pieman: Gonna skip most of these since you're pretty much agreeing that your theory is wrong in most cases.

I skipped this? I didn't mean to. Anyways, it is curious why Mac was never included. When Sakurai talked about other retro series, he never seemed to mention it. Heck, there are no Punch Out stickers either. Whatever the case though, PO's old sales don't really have much to do with a debate on curent performance, since they had all happened in the NES days. It was a retro series at the time, and prior to Punch Out for the Wii, was one that changed main characters. Retro characters inclusion doesn't seem to work with sales, nor does it seem to work with straight up popularity. I suppose I have to concede that its just random with them, but hopefully Little Mac can get in now since he's not completely retro anymore.
I'm referring to 64/Melee, where Super Punch-Out was only 5/7 years old respectively (same as Super Metroid). Back then he would've been perfectly fine as a contemporary character, and for the sake of Sakurai's Melee NES character he'd be no worse than ICs.


LoZ also had MM come out recently too, as well as the Oracle games and LA Dx, so if you count the sales for the generation, it was doing better overall. Given how this initially got them the addition of Zelda/Sheik, and then latter the two clones, I think it falls in line well enough. This does lead me to another observation though in that DK64 was pretty under represented. While it allegedly got a stage in the form of Jungle Japes, there was no real location like that in the game, and just had the same name for some unknown reason. No real trophies for it either at the time of Melee, though I suppose you could say K.Rool could pottentially have been.
SNES DKC wasn't that long ago at the time ('94, '95, and '96) and the series was still putting out GB games that were doing about the same as Zelda's handhelds. To say Zelda was doing better overall means you're focusing on too small of a time period.

Also even if you stretch your theory a little, it can't explain why Zelda got four (FOUR!) new characters, more than even Pokemon. Or why DK didn't get Diddy at all.


As I said, I don't really think LoZ and DK are wrong when you consider the timeframes. Wario's pottentially under (depends on how your view is on where the series split from Sakurai's perspective) SF is clearly over, F-Zero simply has character issues, and I don't think FE, Mother actually have problems, even if the reasons are dubious for character inclusion. Thus...well its as I said before, the only thing that really doesn't make sense to me here is Star Fox (And Mother, but that worked out) :psycho:
These are all listed for the present, so Wario clearly counts as his own (and he's most definitely under). F-Zero's character issues exist in your mind entirely. You can't write off Mother/FE as "okay, even if they're not," that's basically saying "I'm right even though I'm wrong." And DK and Zelda have been uneven when they should've been on par with each other, that's a fact.

I know you want to think your theory is close enough to working, but it's not. There's just too many holes and outside explanations, a good chunk of which are either speculation or flat-out wrong.


Last side-notes: you missed the part where technical issues for Dixie are irrelevant if she's solo like Diddy. F-Zero characters aren't "just racers," they haven't been since GX (and neither Falcon nor Goroh have been since 1990). Clones still add up to a series' character count; if there was room for Doc, there was room for Wario. Roy was cut for time.



I know guys; in fact, I had no problems with his inclusion so long as Krystal was in as well.

It always just struck me though that Krystal was the more popular one. By the way, now that I think about it, we can't really tell how popular she and Wolf are in Japan. Apparently, the Starfox games sell better in the U.S. while not so much in Japan (one thing the guy who did the FMAxStarfox video has mentioned on his DA account).
I never got the impression that that was the case until I went to SmashBoards. Even then I was still pretty sure Wolf was more popular since he'd been in 64 and Krystal actually had haters.
 

Ma(r)th

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I would like to see Link get more speed and higher priority in some of his moves. He's one of my favourite characters to use, but in Brawl he seems like a paperweight.

I would like to see the smash ball removed and perhaps final smashes being awarded to players who accomplish difficult things such as remaining in the game past 250% or something.

I think I would like the whole game sped up more. The games seem to be slowing down. And of course I want a better wifi: no lag.

There are a lot of characters I would like to see in SSB4: Final Fantasy characters (like Cloud or Squall), Dart from LoD, and Yo****sune from Genji: DotS. Specifically from Nintendo I like the idea of including Mallow and Geno from Mario RPG. I also would like to see a koopa or paratroopa, the Dark Link from OoT (hazy and bluish in colour and able to disappear through the ground), and Phantom Ganon from OoT (floating and lithe with a battle style completely different from regular Ganondorf).

Last and most importantly, I would love a feature where one could design one's own character within certain parameters (i.e. using an existing character as a base and changing things like speed, moves, jump height, and priority by divvying out points from a set value). The appearance of the character could perhaps be changed not only with colour but with intricate skins and costumes.
 

Pieman0920

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@Pieman: Gonna skip most of these since you're pretty much agreeing that your theory is wrong in most cases.
Eh?


I'm referring to 64/Melee, where Super Punch-Out was only 5/7 years old respectively (same as Super Metroid). Back then he would've been perfectly fine as a contemporary character, and for the sake of Sakurai's Melee NES character he'd be no worse than ICs.
Well, that's a bit sketchy if you ask me. Punch Out for the NES sold better than any Metroid game at the time, but what exactly were the sales of Super Punch Out? I don't really recall that game ever being that popular, and it also featured a different main character. Little Mac at the time could be considered retro, while new Little Mac wouldn't but I have no idea how well the new Little Mac was received, or how his game did.


SNES DKC wasn't that long ago at the time ('94, '95, and '96) and the series was still putting out GB games that were doing about the same as Zelda's handhelds. To say Zelda was doing better overall means you're focusing on too small of a time period.

Also even if you stretch your theory a little, it can't explain why Zelda got four (FOUR!) new characters, more than even Pokemon. Or why DK didn't get Diddy at all.
I wouldn't say its that small of a time frame when its an entire generation being considered. I will say that I find it strange that DK64 got such a large shaft, and that the Zelda series may have been riding on the coattails of how popular and acclaimed OoT was. Keep in mind though, that while the Zelda series was the one that increased the most in that transition, two of its characters were late addition clones, while another was there to test out a new mechanic (Sheik). Thus going by the original plans, and factoring out the extra time given at the end, you've got an increase for the LoZ series by 1 or 2, depending on how you count it, which falls in line a lot better. (I suppose DK could have been given a clone in the form of Funky or Chunky, but those were second or third tier characters)


These are all listed for the present, so Wario clearly counts as his own (and he's most definitely under). F-Zero's character issues exist in your mind entirely. You can't write off Mother/FE as "okay, even if they're not," that's basically saying "I'm right even though I'm wrong." And DK and Zelda have been uneven when they should've been on par with each other, that's a fact.
I don't get the Wario thing you said there. The F-Zero thing really is an issue though, since the majority of characters just don't get their movesets from out of nowhere. Though they could work in a moveset that has elements from the more combative aspects of the races, like giving Goroh a "spin attack" or a "side attack" or something. (Either way, this seems kind of similar to those TvC/MvC3 disputes over Pheonix Wright. I'd have to imagine that Goroh would be closer to Franziska's position there rather then Edgeworth's, though I think I'm rambling here) Mother I conceded, but Fire Emblem doesn't have a problem. Yeah, they had 3 planned at one point, and we don't know why he was cut, but he was still cut in the end. And, my rebuttle on the DK/Zelda thing not being taken into consideration here, they only should be on par with each other as a fact if you believe the theory. :p

I know you want to think your theory is close enough to working, but it's not. There's just too many holes and outside explanations, a good chunk of which are either speculation or flat-out wrong.
I think I probably have been poorly presenting my opinion here, since it was based around the idea that this is what causes the general backbone of character decisions, though it isn't a solid thing that provides the inclusion of every character, especially with series like Metroid, F-Zero, and Yoshi which have issues with their characters. Its absolutely true that the idea that sales are the only factor is a faulty one, but I just believe that they are the most important issue in deciding how series progress.

Last side-notes: you missed the part where technical issues for Dixie are irrelevant if she's solo like Diddy. F-Zero characters aren't "just racers," they haven't been since GX (and neither Falcon nor Goroh have been since 1990). Clones still add up to a series' character count; if there was room for Doc, there was room for Wario. Roy was cut for time.
I don't think it matters if Dixie was not going to be paired up with Diddy. However she was planned to be included, technical issues cut her out, and that's all we know for a fact about what cut those 7 characters. And while all of the F-Zero racers have their own bodies, backgrounds, and personalities, that doesn't really come into play for anyone but a select few in the actual games. Falcon has his story mode where all he does is race a computer, race on a dare, race for money after dressing up, race a gang, save Jody by racing against time, race against time again to save his life, race for a belt, race for a belt again, and then race against the contents of the belt. Also he ripped his pants. Even Captain Falcon doesn't do much more than race, and he's the main character who had a story mode dedicated to him. Its very simple that despite their backstories, the F-Zero characters don't fight, and because of that, its difficult (though by no means impossible) to convert them into Smash characters.

And I wouldn't really say clones work that way in terms of character count. Doc did bring up the total to five, but that doesn't mean there was time for Wario. The clones were an after thought. Also the sales theory would indicate that Dr. Mario indeed would get in before Wario, since Wario Land sold less than Dr. Mario (GB) had. :V

I never got the impression that that was the case until I went to SmashBoards. Even then I was still pretty sure Wolf was more popular since he'd been in 64 and Krystal actually had haters.
Ehhh, Wolf didn't have a real fanbase, pre-Brawl announcement, while Krystal always did. Of course Krystal also had a group of haters, which could be seen as balancing that out.
 

Big-Cat

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I never got the impression that that was the case until I went to SmashBoards. Even then I was still pretty sure Wolf was more popular since he'd been in 64 and Krystal actually had haters.
Really? At the very least, some of the gaming forums I've visited had Krystal as highly requested character, moreso than Wolf. Then again, the rosters I saw may have been roster predictions than wishlists.

I would like to see Link get more speed and higher priority in some of his moves. He's one of my favourite characters to use, but in Brawl he seems like a paperweight.
Priority works different than you might think. When you increase the priority of an attack, unless you give it transcendent priority, you're for the most part increasing the range of the hitbox. Then there's high and low priority, after just reading on it, clashing attacks if they're within a certain damage range, and attacks that trade hits.

But Link does need to be improved though. More speed in his attacks and running speed, and a better vertical recovery could fix things up quite a bit.

After reading up on priority, I can really appreciate the design of the concept.
 

Nik21

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Things i want:
for characters, i would like to see (some of these are just ideas)
roy
mewtwo
lyn
krystal
bowser jr
toad
waligi
midna
ridley
a 5th gen pokemon to replace lucario
a new pt (replace the old one) that has 2nd gen starters and alternate gender
plusle & minun
so they only charcater that would get the boot would be lucario

lagless wi-fi play (its realistic, mario kart wii has it with 12 people playing at the same time)

no room on the disc wasted for bull**** like masterpieces and repitive storymodes

more sophisticated stage builder

meta knight nerfed and a balanced roster in general

faster gameplay (faster than brawl but not quite as fast as melee might be just right)
 

Shorts

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Krystal had/has haters? What is the reasoning behind this? Was it just the fact that the people who hated krystal wanted wolf in or what? Anyways, I have heard rumors that StarFox has a new game possibly in the makes. So maybe Krystal will be a reality in SSB4.
 

Big-Cat

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Krystal had/has haters? What is the reasoning behind this? Was it just the fact that the people who hated krystal wanted wolf in or what? Anyways, I have heard rumors that StarFox has a new game possibly in the makes. So maybe Krystal will be a reality in SSB4.
A good amount of people didn't like Adventures, her debut, because it didn't play like the previous two Starfox games. I enjoyed it for what it was: An adventure game featuring Starfox characters and considered it to be a "side story" so to speak.

Not only that, but by introducing her, she ended up becoming furry fodder and this introduced a lot of people to the furry fandom which a lot of people now believe to be nothing but porn. In reality, she was just one of the countless victims of rule 34.

Then there are people who just don't like her, but every character in any given medium has haters.
 

Shorts

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Lol, furries. Well whatever you like is your buisness, so i dont see why that makes her hateable. Besides, starfox had one female character who played in imfintesimle part before krystal. (it was falcos girlfriend in 64, i think her name is Kat, actually she came back in the newest game for the ds) Krystal hate is just silly. Shes a much better choice than Slippy >.> Krystal is really the only other character that i think is considerable for smash. I like Peppy, and Panther and Pigma. But their appereance over Krystals would be soo....... random.
 

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I think Krystal's chances lay entirely on whether or not another Star Fox game comes out in the next couple of years. Between Melee and Brawl, there were three new Star Fox games which helps explain why Star Fox got another character despite the series only having five games. The more that I think about this the more that it becomes clear to me that Fire Emblem definitely deserves three reps given not only the number of games it has had but its lifespan too which is almost as long as Metroid and the Legend of Zelda. Given Sakurai's past comments about relevance, I'm starting to become concerned for Ike despite the fact that 1. he has an original moveset and 2. was a starting character. It's funny because I used to hate him completely but since playing Path of Radiance, he's become the only new Brawl character aside from King Dedede and Wario that I'd be upset about if he were cut.
 

ElPanandero

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I don't like Krystal. She has an annoying personality and as a character I dislike her...just like all you who hate slippy. On top of that her support is annoying >.>
 

ToonNess64

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I don't really mind Krystal becoming playable in the next game :p

btw over Bowser jr.

I didn't went through all 2166 pages to check so excuse me.

Many say that he would become a Bowser clone because their both Koopas and because they got similar personality's etc.

I don't really think Bowser jr. could become a clone if he was playable.... at least if its up to Sakurai. :p


remember the Koopaling's? they recently came back in New super mario bros wii so its kinda hard to mis. :)

how about Bowser jr. making use of some of his siblings moves? he can have a moveset thats not similar to bowser's you know. :)

For example:

With his neutral B move he could use his paint brush.... maybe using it the same way as his siblings staffs or as the magikoopa's staff? :s

With his side B special move he could do that spin roll move that Roy and Morton done in Super Mario World whenever they got hit on their head. he can even charge it to go with better speed and power. (Its kinda like a mix of Yoshi's side special move, the egg roll and Bowser's up special move, the koopa spin.... if that's what they where called?)

With his down B special he could roll off some of those fireballs in the same fashion that Larry and Iggy had done in Super Mario world :p if he shoots them of a hill like place, they roll down much faster and might even increase power.

With his up B special move he can use that ball that Lemmy Koopa used in Mario Bros 3. he can use that ball to make a higher jump in the air while the ball that falls to the opposite direction can fall on the enemies heads which can cause quite allot of damage. (kinda like a mix of Sonic's spring and the Soccer ball item except it cant be used by other characters after it was taken out like with Sonic's spring)


I don't know what his Final smash would be though. :s

well this is just an overall idea for Bowser jr. :D I'm not a huge supporter of him, just wanted to give some ideas. :p


btw I would like to see the story mode being improved with actual NINTENDO enemies and PLEASE Sakurai >_< stop kicking out my favourite characters. D: (I mis Mewtwo and I'm fearing he's going to kick out Toon Link as well now D: oh well at least Ness is still playable XD)
 

Pieman0920

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I'm not sure if Krystal's chances depend on a new SF, but rather a new SF that actually rivals SF64. Sakurai, during development, admited that he didn't know who Krystal was, which indicates that he never payed any attention to Adventures, Assault, or Command, despite that being half of the series at that point. Unless Sakurai goes back and revisits the games, or another SF game has the appeal of SF64, he may never look into it hard enough to know Krystal exists, and thus we may either get no new SF character (which is probably for the best) or we get another SF64 character (hurr durr Slippy)
 

Big-Cat

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I'm not sure if Krystal's chances depend on a new SF, but rather a new SF that actually rivals SF64. Sakurai, during development, admited that he didn't know who Krystal was, which indicates that he never payed any attention to Adventures, Assault, or Command, despite that being half of the series at that point. Unless Sakurai goes back and revisits the games, or another SF game has the appeal of SF64, he may never look into it hard enough to know Krystal exists, and thus we may either get no new SF character (which is probably for the best) or we get another SF64 character (hurr durr Slippy)
I think we all want that, but I doubt the last three games not being near that caliber has anything to do with him being ignorant on the series. I sincerely believe that he pretty much just didn't do a whole lot of researching before deciding on the roster.
 

Fatmanonice

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I think we all want that, but I doubt the last three games not being near that caliber has anything to do with him being ignorant on the series. I sincerely believe that he pretty much just didn't do a whole lot of researching before deciding on the roster.
He's also admitted to not being that big of a gamer and only being a fan of a few franchises. From how he talks, his "gamer" days were back during the NES era and he rarely goes out of his way to play certain games unless they really pique his interest.
 

ToiseOfChoice

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All part of getting older don'tcha know.

To be fair, he did probably have to learn 6+ years of game history for anything Nintendo (plus MGS/Sonic) while drafting up all the other components of the game.
 

Pieman0920

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I suppose its possible that it was just Sakurai not paying attention in the interim between Melee and Brawl, but I can't help but think that he may have been a fan of SF64, since you need a bit more than a casual knowledge of the game to know who Wolf is, or consider him as a playable character. Hopefully, as Toise said, he got a good update on the basics of Star Fox series (as well as other series) when he was working on Brawl....though hopfully even more, he pays more attention what's happening now between Brawl and whenever development on SSB4 happens.
 

Fatmanonice

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Well, he works with a ton of people and pretty much has connections to not only every major player at Nintendo and their second parties, but he has a lot of connections with third parties too. He definitely has all the resources at his disposal but its decision if he actually uses them. The guy could be a Nintendo encyclopedia for all we know and even still have limited interests.
 

Shorts

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Well, he works with a ton of people and pretty much has connections to not only every major player at Nintendo and their second parties, but he has a lot of connections with third parties too. He definitely has all the resources at his disposal but its decision if he actually uses them. The guy could be a Nintendo encyclopedia for all we know and even still have limited interests.
Exactly, it seems to me that not only is he not paying attnetion to newer game releases he also doesnt enjoy the whole third party thing. He can have any numbers to any major gaming company at any hour of the night. Yet he still only let Snake in, because he was begged to get in and Sonic because nintendo either pushed him to or made him.

If he makes the next smash bros alone, with no partner, then i suspect we should see very few changes to how the rosters are going to look. Only Pikmin was the realitly new franchise that got character representation. Asides from WarioWare. So maybe a few new franchises, one or two more retro characters and MAYBE one new third party.
 

Pieman0920

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Well if he had limited interests, that wouldn't really explain why he let Star Fox get all the way to three characters. If he didn't know much, or care to know much about a series, it woudn't make sense that he would give it one new character with each game.
 

Big-Cat

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The only way the machinima could've been made was with hacking.
 

BBQTV

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^I don't get it. That's not really a hack at all. Its just Machinima video where a lot of footage was super imposed over backgrounds.
pieman you dont know much about hacks and it shows
The only way the machinima could've been made was with hacking.
now this person right here knows about hacking and even then it doesnt take a genius to know that hacking was used in that video. all im trying to do is show what you can do with hacking
 

FRiSKruns

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well, when SSB4 comes out I definitely hope it's not on DS as the rumor around says, I'd really hate to play on such a small screen =.=

on to the characters, I'd love it if they add Zero of Megaman X series, or even though I like him less Zero of the Megaman Zero series, they should keep Sonic the Hedgehog and buff him a bit because for being one of the fastest characters in video game history his attacks lag quite a bit, not to mention he really doesn't have many attacks which he uses his legs in.. (bair,uair,utilt,dtilt,ftilt,dair) I'm confident that's all but I'm not really thinking hard on it.

many more things I could say I'd appreciate but then it'd be pretty long.

Edit:mind you out of those attacks of sonics only 2 of them actually have good KO potential while the rest are just decent in combos
 

Pieman0920

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pieman you dont know much about hacks and it shows

now this person right here knows about hacking and even then it doesnt take a genius to know that hacking was used in that video. all im trying to do is show what you can do with hacking
I suppose, but that still has nothing to do with the hacks that go around here that have to do with importing textures or modifying the games in some way. That's what I meant by a hack, though I suppose its true that it couldn't have been done without hacking too...but seriously, it something completely different. I have no real distaste for things like that or Garry's Mod or whatever, but generally don't care for these modified versions of the game, which that was clearly not. That being said, I'm not really impressed by poor DBZ parodies either.
 
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