[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

[CyberMario]

OVER RULED! the amount of fail and ignorance in that post is tooooooooo much

Is that all? Heh. Your not worth a thought in my head.

 

[BBQTV]

Is that all? Heh. Your not worth a thought in my head.

thats funny that you say that especially since you were the one to make that ignorant post.........

 

[Big-Cat]

Besides that Brawl has it all covered. I really love the effort the developers put into Brawl. I don't think people give them enough credit. I know Brawl has it's (microscopic) downsides. But people need to relax and be happy with what we got.

LMAO

You must not be aware of the downsides in this game. Why else would we have all these mods out there? Certainly, they weren't satisfied at how Brawl was handled. Quite frankly, neither was I. It was quantity over quality, IMO in some areas while others were lacking.

 

[Pieman0920]

Actually Kuma, even if Brawl was Melee 2.0, exactly like Balanced Brawl, or whatever your perfect version of the game would be, I'd think that there would still be hundreds of mods out there. :V

Anyways BBQTV, lay off the guy. He's clearly new. Yeah he makes som cancer-inducingly bad character selections (and gameplay mechanics, what with that 3D thing) but everyone starts off that way. If we found your first few posts in this topic, would they be much different?

 

[Big-Cat]

Actually Kuma, even if Brawl was Melee 2.0, exactly like Balanced Brawl, or whatever your perfect version of the game would be, I'd think that there would still be hundreds of mods out there. :V

Not necessarily. If a lot of people are highly satisfied with a game, despite its flaws, there may not be many attempts to mod the game. It also depends on easy it is to hack into the game. As of right now, IIRC, Brawl is pretty much the only console game to have a modding community, a community that was formally exclusive to the PC world.

However, this does not take away the fact that people will have their different visions for a better game. Modding just makes it more vocal.

 

[Shorts]

What is "Balanced" like, im just a regular everyday run of the mill player who knows a few tricks, i know very little about this melle 2.0 and "balanced" talk. I do feel like when compairing the gameplay between the two, melee feels much smoother.

 

[Pieman0920]

Exactly. The thing with Smash is that its popular no matter how you slice it. There's no way to say that I more satisfying game would lead to a decrease in the amount of people who would mod the game or not, but there will always be a group that want something different. Given how popular Smash is, and how there are no real alternatives to it outside of its own series, it was bound to attract people who had the time and resources to modify the game. And given how there would always be some character cut, or the game would be too much like Melee, or not enough like it, there would always be a large enough group of fans to try to mod it. Perhaps less, but it would likely still be there.

Thinking about it, I think I may have struck something with that "no alternatives" comment. Most console games have loads of alternatives. You don't like Street Fighter but you like traditional fighters? KoF, BlazBlue, Guilty Gear, or whatever, may be what you really want. You like FPSs but you don't like how Halo plays? There are loads of other FPSs to go with. There aren't many games that are like Smash though, as most of them are either poorly made, or stray too far away from the mechanics of Smash in order not to seem like a complete copy. This, I think, may be the reason why Brawl has a large community based around moding it, while other console games don't. Its either this, or previous Smash games, and it doesn't help that it takes so long for new versions to come out. Heck, I think this goes a long way to explain MUGEN as well, since that's basically a substitute for the lack of MvC styled games, which were also really popular, yet didn't have a lot of variations. Of course that's for the PC, while the other is modded on a Wii, but I still think it matches up.

 

[Big-Cat]

What is "Balanced" like, im just a regular everyday run of the mill player who knows a few tricks, i know very little about this melle 2.0 and "balanced" talk. I do feel like when compairing the gameplay between the two, melee feels much smoother.

Melee 2.0 is the currently in development Project M. It's in the alpha stages so they're working on finalizing the engine before going into balancing the game. Here's a video demonstrating some of the things in it. Personally, I'm against their over-complication of one of the mechanics and bringing back L-Canceling.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxA9jHvfWPc

Balanced Brawl doesn't mess with Brawl's engine. It just balances out the characters while giving them new properties in some cases. For example, Fox and Peach can feint out of their side B's and Zelda can finally approach her opponent with Nayru's Love. All these videos will provide the changes per character.

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=OfficerCooper#g/u

 

[Big-Cat]

Exactly. The thing with Smash is that its popular no matter how you slice it. There's no way to say that I more satisfying game would lead to a decrease in the amount of people who would mod the game or not, but there will always be a group that want something different. Given how popular Smash is, and how there are no real alternatives to it outside of its own series, it was bound to attract people who had the time and resources to modify the game. And given how there would always be some character cut, or the game would be too much like Melee, or not enough like it, there would always be a large enough group of fans to try to mod it. Perhaps less, but it would likely still be there.

Thinking about it, I think I may have struck something with that "no alternatives" comment. Most console games have loads of alternatives. You don't like Street Fighter but you like traditional fighters? KoF, BlazBlue, Guilty Gear, or whatever, may be what you really want. You like FPSs but you don't like how Halo plays? There are loads of other FPSs to go with. There aren't many games that are like Smash though, as most of them are either poorly made, or stray too far away from the mechanics of Smash in order not to seem like a complete copy. This, I think, may be the reason why Brawl has a large community based around moding it, while other console games don't. Its either this, or previous Smash games, and it doesn't help that it takes so long for new versions to come out. Heck, I think this goes a long way to explain MUGEN as well, since that's basically a substitute for the lack of MvC styled games, which were also really popular, yet didn't have a lot of variations. Of course that's for the PC, while the other is modded on a Wii, but I still think it matches up.

You really are on to something. At least in fighting games, outside of Smash, you're basically left with two basic options: 2D or 3D fighters and the different games in each of those subgenres. The problem with Super Smash Bros.' s genre, the platform fighter, is that there really is no high quality alternative.

It has a monopoly, so to speak, on the genre it created because it seems either everyone's afraid to challenge Nintendo or fear of being a copy cat (didn't stop them from taking on Capcom, Namco, or Sega) . As it is, Super Smash Bros. stands unopposed. We've already seen in our personal lives what happens when you're left with only one option. That option doesn't care so much about the quality because people have to come to them.

This is where other companies, be it Capcom, Namco, or whoever, need to step in. The beauty of competition in business is that it encourages companies to put out the best they can make and everyone wins. Instead of putting up different mascots, so as to reduce the Super Smash Bros. comparisons, against each other in a platform fighter, I'd like to see an original roster, be it something crazy as Guilty Gear, or as an affectionate, but in depth, parody of traditional fighters (something you could consider the original SSB to be).

Who knows, maybe I'll end up doing something like this in the future.

EDIT: I forgot this: Supposedly, the Jump Superstars games play similar to SSB so that's a start.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Is that all? Heh. Your not worth a thought in my head.

You're*

And thus we derail into another repeated debate because yet another new guy doesn't know how this thread works. I wish the first post would explain. Ah well. As for responses;

@Toise: Very well. What do you think specifically on Bowser Jr and Toad?

@Pieman: What makes you think towards the direction you're facing at with "No Newcomer"? What if your beliefs on what makes a character get in changed around to fit a similar idea that say Toise, FMOI, or Myself follow? Just the idea module, not the exact same specific thoughts module.

And as per usual, feel free to debate each others posts. Well, knowing you two won't, that rule applies to when other people join.

 

[augustoflores]

in all this time i never subscribed... weird. anyways
@pieman, that was excellently put, i could not have said it better myself,
@Kuma, Jump Ultimate Stars, Battle Stadium D.O.N, DreamMix TV World Fighters, (Power Stone, Power Stone 2 possibly), Onimusha Blade Warriors, etc.
(shortiecanbrawls voice: it used to be a child's voice, now it is an extremely hot voice. keep the avatar!)

 

[Pieman0920]

@Kuma

JSS/JUS are aren't quite like Smash. They have lots of platforms where you can be knocked off of and die, but the game is still revolves around taking out a health bar. It also has a high focus on switching characters and assists. The thing with it though is that its also a portable game thats found only in Japan, so it doesn't really help people looking for an alternative.

@Thirdkoopa

...What? I don't get what you're trying to say there? Why do I think that a no new Mario character is only likely if the other series don't expand? If that's what you're asking, its because I can't comprehend the Mario series being on equal terms with several of the lesser series. It just doesn't seem right given the Mario series popularity. If the other series don't expand though, and new characters are generally from new series that don't have characters, then I can see the Mario series staying at the 4 that it has now. (Keep in mind though that when I say that the other series generally don't expand, I don't mean that they don't expand at all. I'm just saying like 3 or 4 characters to old series)

 

[Big-Cat]

@Kuma

JSS/JUS are aren't quite like Smash. They have lots of platforms where you can be knocked off of and die, but the game is still around taking out a health bar. It also has a high focus on switching characters and assists. The thing with it though is that its also a portable game thats found only in Japan, so it doesn't really help people looking for an alternative.

So it sounds like a hybrid of the Capcom Vs. games and SSB. Okay, then I stand corrected. But still, this does emphasize that there's not that many high quality alternatives. As such, I fear the quality of future SSB games unless someone tries to challenge Nintendo.

As for the Mario debate, I think that we may very well get both in. There's nothing saying they can't both be in.

 

[Pieman0920]

...Eh, I didn't mention tha tit was like a combo of the Vs series and Smash? Nuts. I meant to say that, but oh well. In any case, the game actually did have a fairly big community of GameFaqs, or at least it used to. Its been so long that it kind of shrank. We're really about due for another one, I say.

But really thinking about it, I'm not sure how another series that immitates Smash would work. Most of the games that are pretty much clones of Smash, such as Dream Mix TV, TMNT Smash Up, Battle Stadium D.O.N., Onimusha Blade Warriors, Viewtiful Joe: Red Hot Rumble, or any other game I'm forgetting, all don't take themselves seriously in any way. (And they all use health bars for the most part, besides D.O.N I think) Now Smash doesn't quite do this either, but the community developed around it kind of pushed it in that direction.

Thinking more about it, I don't think there can be a high level alternative at all. No one out there is going to try to actually copy Smash's formula, there are too few series that can actually rival Nintendo's star power to get enough fans, and even fewer would risk alienating them by making a competative game.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

That wasn't what I was asking, Pieman. I was more so directing the question towards how you often come to think the whole "One Series > Another" Theory (Not trying to rat you out on it this time or anything) - What would you think on the whole situation if your stances on how a character gets in were to change to fit say, FMOI's, Toise's, or my views? Would it still be the same with just more possibility at Mario not changing? Would it be the same? Totally different?

But still a great (And clear) answer. This discussion is at least going somewhere even with a lack of people.

 

[BBQTV]

what if sakurai has a contest and whoever wins gets to pick who gets in?

 

[Pieman0920]

How would I know? My stance on things are like my own, so asking me what they'd be like if they were more like someone else's is pointless, because then they would be like their's. I think you know full well what my stances are, and that's how they would turn out, and there's no way I'd know what would happen if you had some type of mix and match version of my opinions interspliced with others, especially ones that I don't agree with. I hate the idea that all series have a set point at which they will be "complete" or something like that, since that just means adding in all the characters that fit the standard story tropes, and disregard if they are a good or original character.

@BBQ: Please refrain from posting Godot, or any other big AA sprite in the middle of this topic like that.

 

[BBQTV]

How would I know? My stance on things are like my own, so asking me what they'd be like if they were more like someone else's is pointless, because then they would be like their's. I think you know full well what my stances are, and that's how they would turn out, and there's no way I'd know what would happen if you had some type of mix and match version of my opinions interspliced with others, especially ones that I don't agree with. I hate the idea that all series have a set point at which they will be "complete" or something like that, since that just means adding in all the characters that fit the standard story tropes, and disregard if they are a good or original character.

@BBQ: Please refrain from posting Godot, or any other big AA sprite in the middle of this topic like that.

i'll stop

if you convince me

 

[Starphoenix]

But still a great (And clear) answer. This discussion is at least going somewhere even with a lack of people.

May I join in? I'm not able to type a long post right now as time is scrunched for me. In short though, if this subject is what I believe it to be, I am of the belief characters are not to fit some quota or to "stetch a series". Characters are added upon one of or a mixture of three reasons:

1: People actually enjoy and/or request them (most everyone on the roster)
2: For advertisement (ie Marth and Roy)
3: To bring an element of surprise and uniqueness (ie Mr. Game and Watch and others)

Characters are added individually, not collectively.

 

[SmashChu]

I'm not saying we need to discuss Zelda Wii stage ideas, but speculating on soon to be outdated stages does not seem logical. Especially when the current Zelda series is always reflected in Super Smash Bros.

The most recent is always what will be a stages. Melee had Temple, a stage based off of LoZ2.

How would I know? My stance on things are like my own, so asking me what they'd be like if they were more like someone else's is pointless, because then they would be like their's. I think you know full well what my stances are, and that's how they would turn out, and there's no way I'd know what would happen if you had some type of mix and match version of my opinions interspliced with others, especially ones that I don't agree with. I hate the idea that all series have a set point at which they will be "complete" or something like that, since that just means adding in all the characters that fit the standard story tropes, and disregard if they are a good or original character.

Well said!

Weerp weerp Here comes the thread police.

OVER RULED! the amount of fail and ignorance in that post is tooooooooo much

Hey, you are the one calling people names. Say something productive or shut up.

Setting bail at $1,000,000

LMAO

You must not be aware of the downsides in this game. Why else would we have all these mods out there? Certainly, they weren't satisfied at how Brawl was handled. Quite frankly, neither was I. It was quantity over quality, IMO in some areas while others were lacking.

OH, God forbid someone likes this game.
The word "opinion" means nothing to you does it.

Look, this thread is for anyone to discuss SSB4 and until there is more then one topic to do so, we need to accept everyone who is willing to talk about it. So play nice kids.

 

[SmashChu]

You really are on to something. At least in fighting games, outside of Smash, you're basically left with two basic options: 2D or 3D fighters and the different games in each of those subgenres. The problem with Super Smash Bros.' s genre, the platform fighter, is that there really is no high quality alternative.

It has a monopoly, so to speak, on the genre it created because it seems either everyone's afraid to challenge Nintendo or fear of being a copy cat (didn't stop them from taking on Capcom, Namco, or Sega) . As it is, Super Smash Bros. stands unopposed. We've already seen in our personal lives what happens when you're left with only one option. That option doesn't care so much about the quality because people have to come to them.

This is where other companies, be it Capcom, Namco, or whoever, need to step in. The beauty of competition in business is that it encourages companies to put out the best they can make and everyone wins. Instead of putting up different mascots, so as to reduce the Super Smash Bros. comparisons, against each other in a platform fighter, I'd like to see an original roster, be it something crazy as Guilty Gear, or as an affectionate, but in depth, parody of traditional fighters (something you could consider the original SSB to be).

Sorry, I have to point something out.

Monopolies are typically tied to industries, not products. Nintendo would be a monopoly, not Super Smash brothers. Monopolies also doesn't mean a lack or quality. It just means they are in an industry where there is no competition (and it can be on a local or regional level). You can have a monopoly with a good product.

Also, people have alternatives. Videogames are an entertainment medium, so consumers can just not buy videogames and just buy something like a CD or rent a movie instead.

This seems more of a way to say that Smash bros is somehow not a "quality" product.

 

[BBQTV]

Weerp weerp Here comes the thread police.

Hey, you are the one calling people names. Say something productive or shut up.

Setting bail at $1,000,000

http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=3890744

 

[Cyn]

Sorry couldn't resist.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

How would I know?

...You can't be this dense. This was a joke, right?

It's a very simple method. Replace what makes you think a character gets in, toy it around a bit, fit the ideologies of another, and see where it goes. I've done it a lot before so don't even give me the random stuff of "Oh, that isn't possible". Just weighing in or out one factor more or less can change quite a bit. But god forbid someone tries to break the current thread mold around a bit so we don't run into a Pieman/Arc/Gameplay/Etc cycle.

I'm not just asking you to do this - This is something for everyone else here to try and do.

If not then we pretty much get the same horrible debates re-ran unless someone/something interesting comes/happens.

May I join in?

Why not?

I left this open for debate. Anyone willing to debate it can very well do so. If I wanted to debate with someone specifically I'd probably do it over PM's instead of screwing up this entire thread at others expenses.

Weerp weerp Here comes the thread police.

If that was a comment in his offense not only do you guys officially disappoint me, toise, and FMOI, but you also bore us all. That goes to the general thread.

 

[ElPanandero]

So this is borderline locked now with all the spam. I'm curious to see how this pans out.

 

[Pieman0920]

...You can't be this dense. This was a joke, right?

It's a very simple method. Replace what makes you think a character gets in, toy it around a bit, fit the ideologies of another, and see where it goes. I've done it a lot before so don't even give me the random stuff of "Oh, that isn't possible". Just weighing in or out one factor more or less can change quite a bit. But god forbid someone tries to break the current thread mold around a bit so we don't run into a Pieman/Arc/Gameplay/Etc cycle.

I'm not just asking you to do this - This is something for everyone else here to try and do.

If not then we pretty much get the same horrible debates re-ran unless someone/something interesting comes/happens.

...Are you that dense? Do you think what you’re asking makes any sense?

You’re asking for me to tell you how I would think if didn’t disagree with something, yet could still disagree with it. I don't agree with the notion that series need to be "balanced" out like how Kirby is right now. I think that the individual character matters, and that a more popular series warrants more characters because of the effects that popularity inevitably brings to the series, aka more content to go with demand. If I were to start off under the notion that all series should have the same amount, which would mean unpopular or unoriginal characters should be included because they have a stereotypical key role in their series, I'd modify that by simply not limiting it. I would say that in certain cases there shouldn't be characters that fill out those roles, and in certain cases there should be series which go beyond those set roles. Thus I would reach my original conclusion yet again, because that's what I believe.

 

[Arcadenik]

I believe that in order to maximally represent the Marioverse franchise, it really would only need 8 characters. They would adequately represent many aspects of the Marioverse franchise throughout its long history without overrepresenting or misrepresenting. These eight characters are what I call the Mario Big Eight.

The majority of the Marioverse franchise are spin-off titles and the heart of these spin-off titles are the Mario Big Eight. The idea of the Mario Big Eight started with the Mario Kart series, the most popular spin-off sub-series the Marioverse franchise has to offer (it is not surprising it got a stage in Brawl). These eight characters collectively are the mascots of the Marioverse franchise and they are playable in the majority of spin-off titles. Now, while Smash is not a Mario spin-off title, it is really the closest thing we have to a Mario fighting game. Adding Toad to the Smash roster would finally complete the Mario Big Eight and having them all together again in Smash would really cap it off as the ultimate Mario spin-off title.

I really think the Mario Big Eight best reflects the whole Marioverse franchise. Nintendo most certainly advertises many Nintendo products with the Mario Big Eight imagery, whether it is whole or partial. Look at what Nintendo is offering on the Club Nintendo service.

Club Nintendo Mario 3-Poster Series
Bowser Folder Set w/ Bookmarks
Mario & Friends Folder Set w/ Bookmarks
Toad & Friends Folder Set w/ Bookmarks
Mario & Luigi Greeting Card Set
Mario Party Playing Cards
Hanafuda Cards

USAopoly even produced a Mario-themed chess set with the most of the Mario Big Eight and a Nintendo-themed Monopoly set with the Mario Big Eight.

Super Mario Chess Collector's Edition
Monopoly Nintendo Collector's Edition

I think it is pretty clear that Mario, Luigi, Peach, Toad, Yoshi, Donkey Kong, Wario, and Bowser are the faces of the Marioverse franchise. To cement my statement, Nintendo Power recently released a special Mario issue (click here) where it lists only Luigi, Peach, Toad, and Yoshi as Mario's friends and only Donkey Kong and Wario as his frienemies while Bowser is universally acknowledged as the villain of the whole franchise. This is just one of the many reasons why I don't think Toad is a random choice like Daisy, Waluigi, and especially Geno.

Nintendo loves to milk their biggest games for all they are worth and they would be insane to not want to milk more profits from New Super Mario Bros. Wii and Super Mario Galaxy 2, the two biggest Mario Wii titles in recent times. I am very confident that Yoshi will return in SSB4 along with a new stage from Super Mario Galaxy 2 and because of New Super Mario Bros. Wii, I really believe that Toad will be playable in SSB4 along with a new stage from that game.

 

[Big-Cat]

If that was a comment in his offense not only do you guys officially disappoint me, toise, and FMOI, but you also bore us all. That goes to the general thread.

Now, now, is there really a need to put you three up so high? Especially when FMOI doesn't post here that often?

 

[Big-Cat]

So this is borderline locked now with all the spam. I'm curious to see how this pans out.

Wait, the mods come here and check this thread out?

@SmashChu
I should've realized that it was his opinion, but he struck me as someone that was left in the dark about the other flaws of the game.

I'm not going to debate with you on that other stuff. I'm enjoying Super Street Fighter 4, even without my stick, getting good grades, have a performance tomorrow in one of my classes and I'm really excited, and finals are almost here. I'm not going to let you be a detriment to my enjoyment.

EDIT: Sorry, meant to edit this into the last post.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

You’re asking for me to tell you how I would think if didn’t disagree with something, yet could still disagree with it.

Why not?

It's a very new way to view things - You could say "Well, this could potentially have more of a chance from happening, but I still see this as plausible for these reasons" Instead of just defending them with the same old stances of "X Is popular" Per say - I am not saying that you only do that. That goes to the entire thread.

This way, you can not only show defense and agree with certain viewpoints, but you can also proceed to actually arguing them to a better point. I'll give you two scenarios:

(This thread in a mainstream summary):
Pieman: This is why I think X should get in
Toise: This is why I don't think X should get in.
Pieman: It's because your views of characters fall under a certain critera.
Toise: Yours do to.
*Rambling goes here*

(What I am trying to grasp at and experiment with):
Pieman: This is why I think X should get in
Toise: This is why I don't think X should get in
Pieman: Well, looking at your reasoning behind X, I would have to say that I disagree a bit because X does hold a stronger standpoint to your factors than you think.
Toise: I can agree with that a bit, however looking at your views on how he would get in, it doesn't seem like X is strong enough reasoning due to the factors it holds in it (I.E. Not being that strong to the series - Just an example off the bat)

And if you, or for that matter anyone else doesn't like this style of trying something different, then honestly, here's something: Don't join in unless you have something to say to counter. Why? You've already stated what you think yourself. What else do you have to say if you truly have so little?

If you want to continue this disagreement I could do so out here but I advise you take it to Private Messages. That goes for anyone else who wants to continue this on.


Edit note: And otherwise, you end up derailing debating "What gets a character in" (Which none of us have an 100% answer to) instead of the actual characters themselves.


@Arcadenik: Next time please read the point of this debate before attempting to repeat this thread. Just a question but did you read up generally on the rules for this? Ah well. That at least sums up your opinions on Toad.

Also bolded/underlined so it's easier to see with the rest of this.

So this is borderline locked now with all the spam. I'm curious to see how this pans out.

If you all stay on the current topic and keep at it it won't be.

edit:

Now, now, is there really a need to put you three up so high? Especially when FMOI doesn't post here that often?

Wasn't trying to put us up that high but rather stating the damage that's been going on, that of which I'm trying to actually experiment out with mending it differently. I probably sound more harsh than I thought I did upon writing this.

I don't mean anything really personally asides from the Pieman comments. Even then, those are really just the terrible cycles he ends up fueling, not his actual personality a majority of the time. I just want this thread to go further instead of mushes of downwards repeats.

It feels like that TV show that comes on and feels like it repeats itself longer and more stripped out with less people and less colors and so on. I want to change that TV show and make it different without changing the true origins, or at least try to for a while. I've already incited you guys back into arguing

But I know, I'm being a bit of a hypocrite with saying "I want to improve this thread" and getting a bit high and mighty myself with the insults and so forth. That and I've been working on a lot on my plate at once, so I admit I feel like I've had a stick shoved up a certain spot a bit.



And I'm not going to bother replying to anything not on the actual topic after this post. I'll reply in PM. Back to debating the subject at hand.

 

[Pieman0920]

@Arc: I think the problem with the Toad issue is that when looking back at the days of Mario Kart 64, it'd make sense to put Toad up in the position of next most likley character. The thing is with the time that has passed, Toad isn't as relevant as he was back in those days. I think a simmilar thing can be said back in the original Mario Kart where the roster didn't have DK and Wario, but instead had DK Jr. (I know, I know, they are technically the same) and Koopa Troopa. As the series evolved from there to MK64 though, it was updated with characters who were more important at the time. Given that its been over a decade since MK64, I believe the series has moved on since then, and that Bowser Jr. is more relevant, and thus more likely to get in than Toad. Though of course there's nothing technically stating that both can't get in.

The products though...kind of throw things up in the air as evidence for your claims though, especially when you say Toad isn't as random of a choice as Daisy and Waluigi, when those two are in several products that you posted there. (And again, they both are characters that gained popularity after Mario Kart 64, and thus couldn't be represented then)

@Koops.

You sure picked pretty much the worst subject to try to do that with. I don't agree with that character selection process at all, and that's why I think there should be a different one. Its really quite simple. If someone comes up with a point that I can agree with, then I agree with it, but you're not going to get me to make hypothetical speculations about how I'd agree with something that I'm completely against. Heck, THIS is off topic, and has nothing to do with Smash 4, so you're not helping in that regard.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

Adding on to the Toad thing, I thought it was kinda funny how apparently Yoshi's Island DS makes it the big seven:

God I hate Mario character discussions.

 

[Arcadenik]

Debates are about presenting your points to suppose/oppose something, not posting one-liners... how do I make my points concise to get my message across when every time I make my points concise, I get replies like "no, you are wrong because.... (starts the Pieman cycle)" or they just disregard my points.

I mean, when I say that Toad is one of the faces of the Marioverse franchise because he is one of the Mario Big Eight. I get replies like "Goombas, Koopas, Shy Guys, etc. are the faces of the franchise too but that doesn't mean they should be playable." So I try to provide a counterpoint by saying that Toad and Yoshi are the only generic species to be playable in main games while the other generic enemies are playable only in the spin-off games. I get replies like "but Yoshi has his own series so that's okay for Yoshi to be playable but not okay for Toad."

It is very clear that Toad, despite his generic status, is one of the faces of the Marioverse franchise and is considered one of Mario's friends (along with Luigi, Peach, and Yoshi) and is one of the more popular characters. But people love to say "but he is not important!" or "but he will be a Mario clone!" or even "but he has no moves!" and yet hypocritically list Bowser Jr. (a potential Bowser clone), Waluigi (not important and has no moves), or Geno (not important) in their wish lists.

ThirdKoopa, did you even read my post or did you just look at the length of my post and then decide not to read it and tell me to make it shorter for you?

Pieman, yes, Daisy and Waluigi are on those products but they have no importance/role in any main games (the main games are generally considered to be platformers and RPGs). At least Toad consistently appears in main games unlike Daisy (only one time) and Waluigi (like never). Daisy and Waluigi suddenly became some of the new faces of the Marioverse franchise after they got in one too many spin-off games but they are still not as important as Toad is.

Toise, maybe Toad wasn't born yet? Also, we got Baby Daisy. Guess that makes her one of the Big Eight, right?

 

[Big-Cat]

Okay, so if character discussion is an accident waiting to happen, gameplay discussion is just what SmashChu needs to get me stuck in another ******* argument, music's.... not really that debateable; same with items.

How expansion on the established modes and returning old ones? For example,

How would you keep All-Star mode fun? Brawl showed that the Melee way really doesn't work when you expand the roster beyond 24/25. I think one way would be to take elements of the Multi-Man X mode and put it into the All-Star mode with some new elements too.

Here's what I'm thinking:
You do not have a rest area like before. Rather, the mode acts kind of like Survival Mode. You start off fighting Mario characters on one stage. After KOing them, you have the score and your health recovers by a certain amount (based on the difficulty settings) and you immediately go onto the next set of characters. Unlike before, you don't have continues. Once you get KO'd, that's it. Your record is based on how fast you complete that mode with whatever character.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

Brawl most definitely DIDN'T use the Melee way, don't know why that wouldn't work still (especially if it turned into 4v1 and 5v1 down the line like in Multi-Man).

Generally speaking, all the single-player modes tend to benefit more from randomized opponents than fixed. Don't know why Brawl ditched that, but oh well.

 

[Pieman0920]

Oh I wish music was debatable. I almost never get good music suggestions from this place. ._.

As for All-Star revisited....I say make it like Melee's was but maybe make it so that you can go up to around 4 or 5 enemies all at once, in instances. I think it would work out in the end. Trying to group them all by series again would be a mistake.

Edit: Har

As for the Survival Mode idea....I don't get it. We already have Endless Melee/Brawl....but this is just a limited version of it with the goal of having a good time? I don't quite see the appeal.

@ Arc: Well Toad makes apperances, but he hasn't had major roles in forever, unless you stretch it out to guys like the Blue Toad and the Yellow Toad from NSMBWii, which aren't actually Toad. And if you do go by the stance that the role is what makes the difference here, then you must realize that ever since SMS, Bowser Jr. has had major roles in all of the main line Mario games. (And the "clone" hypocracy is moot. Toad could easily be a clone of Luigi, just as Bowser Jr. could be a clone of Bowser, so its not something that worth being brought up in regards to trying to say that one is better than the other)

 

[Big-Cat]

Brawl most definitely DIDN'T use the Melee way, don't know why that wouldn't work still (especially if it turned into 4v1 and 5v1 down the line like in Multi-Man).

Generally speaking, all the single-player modes tend to benefit more from randomized opponents than fixed. Don't know why Brawl ditched that, but oh well.

Maybe not in the way you're thinking, but I'm referring to having to fight entire roster as such. Although, the randomization did make things a lot more enjoyable, especially Classic Mode considering the odds of having a repeat run through was incredibly low.

As for the Survival Mode idea....I don't get it. We already have Endless Melee/Brawl....but this is just a limited version of it with the goal of having a good time? I don't quite see the appeal.

Have you ever played Time Attack in a fighting game? It's kind of like that. Of course, it's not for everyone, but at least Smash has always been good about giving you options (whether or not they're any good is something else entirely).

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Hey look, thanks to Pie telling me to go make this thread more interesting I did just that. Pie manages to be the unsung hero once more.

Now then since Kuma said items I just got a thought popped into my head: How about something where you can determine how chaotic each item is and the game gives default stuff? For instance, you can put "Items Allowed: "Lower Items only"" Which would remove stuff like say Hammers or Bombs and the more "Middle" Stuff.

I'll make this more clear in the mourning when I'm not dead tired if you guys still don't catch my idea there. I'll also reply to other points made tomorrow.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I want the next Smash to be like Brawl- with more characters. More awesome characters like King K.Rool, Mewtwo and the likes and no more clone movesets. That's all I basically want.

 

[Arcadenik]

Pieman, does it really matter whether Toad is an individual or a species? What's the difference between Toad and the two Toads in NSMBWii? What's the difference between Yoshi and the eight Yoshis in Yoshi's Island games? Nothing except for color so the "generic" argument is moot. It doesn't matter if Toad is not one of the two Toads in NSMBWii or whether Toad is the red Toad of the Toad Brigade in SMS and SMG1+2 because Toad can just represent all the Toads if he is playable just like Yoshi can just represent all the Yoshis in Smash.

In that sense, it is like how Smash Link may look like TP Link but he is really representing all the Links and how Smash Zelda may look like TP Zelda but she is really representing all the Zeldas. So, please stop using the "generic" argument against Toad because it is really moot. All that matters is that Toad is one of the major Mario characters in main games whether he is playable or not and whether he is an individual or a species.

I also don't think it matters if Toad doesn't have big roles like he did back in the 20th century because Smash is not just about Nintendo All-Stars battling each other, it is also about Nintendo history. Toad is both classic and modern because 1) Toad was one of the main characters in early Mario games (classic) and 2) Toads are playable in NSMBWii (modern). So, a playable Toad in Smash would be the sum of classic and modern Toads and that's one of the reasons why I think his moveset should reflect that.