[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

[DekuBoy]

Why the Dickens would you not want Starfy playable?

 

[augustoflores]

herm... i forbid myself from answering that question to the fullest as there are factors that are deemed opinions as well as the opinions of others in play on my decision for his non playability. sorry. (i also fear the starfy fans)
if he gets in, then... cool! but otherwise in my book he ain't viable.

you don't have to read this but:

Spoiler

(my book is completely different from everyone else's book considering that i use other peoples thoughts for me as well as my own mixed to a final decision, oh and the fact that others say the same thing and i take them into account, does not mean that i agree but i still have what they said and possibly use it against others)(you know what, this is probably why i am so confusing to understand, its like a schitzo trying to talk at once)

not really a spoiler but ... for people who don't want to read nonsense. (in their opinion)

 

[Arcadenik]

@ Pieman

This is Mario's Smash moveset.

B - Fireball
Side B - Cape
Up B - Super Jump Punch
Down B - F.L.U.D.D. or Mario Tornado
Final Smash - Mario Finale

You say Toad is more likely going to be a Mario clone because he does the same thing Mario does in Mario games. So I guess this is Toad's moveset, right?

B - Fireball, not Iceball (even though Mario can throw iceballs in NSMBWii)
Side B - Cape, not Toad Kart (even though Mario can drive karts in MK games)
Up B - Super Jump Punch, not Propeller Mushroom (even though Mario can use it in NSMBWii)
Down B - F.L.U.D.D. or Toad Tornado, not Vegetable or Pick Up (even though Mario can do the same in SMB2)
Final Smash - Toad Finale, not something different from Mario's (even though Mario might or might not know how to do the same in some game)

Oh, maybe he could be like Luigi!

B - Fireball, not Iceball (even though Luigi can throw iceballs in NSMBWii)
Side B - Toad Missile, not Toad Kart (even though Luigi can drive karts in MK games)
Up B - Super Jump Punch, not Propeller Mushroom (even though Luigi can use it in NSMBWii)
Down B - Toad Cyclone, not Vegetable or Pick Up (even though Luigi can do the same in SMB2)
Final Smash - Negative Zone, not something different from Luigi's (even though Luigi might or might not know how to do the same in some game)

No, even better, Peach!

B - Toad, not Iceball (Peach doesn't throw iceballs)
Side B - Toad Bomber, not Toad Kart (even though Peach can drive karts in MK games)
Up B - Umbrella, not Propeller Mushroom (Peach doesn't use Propeller Mushrooms but OMG! she uses Joy Vibe from SPP! and that's too similar for Toad's own good!)
Down B - Vegetable, not Pick Up (even though Peach can do both moves in SMB2)
Final Smash - Shroom Bloom, not something different from Peach's (even though Peach might or might not know how to do the same in some game)

And let's look at Bowser Jr., he got the same physical likeness to Bowser and the same body build like Bowser... so why would Sakurai see this character as someone completely different from the original? I mean, since Dr. Mario is just Mario in a doctor's outfit, Pichu is just a baby Pikachu, Young/Toon Link is just a young/toon version of Link, Lucas is just the Ness of Mother 3, and Toon Zelda/Toon Sheik were going to be toon versions of Zelda/Sheik (and I'm not touching the Star Fox furries). Dark Samus's trophy even described her as an exact clone of Samus in everything except color (it is technically true since she is really a Phazon clone of Samus). See the pattern here? If a character is too similar to an existing character from the same series, it is likely that character will be a clone (the only exception to this rule is Ganondorf and Sakurai admitted he turned Ganondorf into a clone because he needed someone to buff the Melee roster and Ganondorf had a similar body build to Captain Falcon).

Oh, and Toad also doesn't need to be in both Super Mario Galaxy games but he is there. Five of them, that is. I guess Toad is popular enough to keep showing up everywhere, not only that but Toad consistently gets story-related roles (that's important) whereas Goombas and Koopas are just there as obstacles and aren't any more or less important than Cataquacks or any lesser known enemies.

If you like to say Toad cannot fight because he does the same things Mario, Luigi, and Peach do in other games, well, I will be bold to say that at least Toad fights on his feet and have several possibilities for his moveset. You couldn't really say the same about Bowser Jr. The only time Bowser Jr. actually fought on foot was in New Super Mario Bros. for the DS and he was just like Boom Boom from SMB3 (and even then, Boom Boom wasn't any different from the Koopalings and parts of Bowser's moveset are inspired by the Koopalings, so indirectly Bowser Jr. wouldn't be any different from Bowser), and get this... he attacks by throwing green shells and we both know that you don't want characters to use specials that are already items. The other games always show Bowser Jr. fighting Mario in a vehicle - Mecha Bowser in Super Mario Sunshine, Koopa Klown Car in New Super Mario Bros. Wii, and various robots in Super Mario Galaxy games. So how do we know how Bowser Jr. fights outside a vehicle? Oh, yeah, we can just give him Bowser's moves and claim that it makes sense because they are father and son so Bowser would have been teaching Bowser Jr. how to fight.

 

[Pieman0920]

The only thing I've ever been conserned with in regards to Starfy is that his moveset might be a bit too limited, though that could just be chalked up to me not knowing enough about the series. Other than that, he seems to have enough games and popularity to be included, so I don't see what the problem is. He'd also probably come with a sea-themed stage, which is quite rare in Smash.

EDIT: @ Arc

Luigi is the prime suspect there. Toad can use fireballs in NSMBWii, basically uses the equivilent of the jump punch, and the other two moves work just as fine too. Basically everything you come up with as an excuse for Toad to be unique works just as well for Bowser Jr. You can easily say that either would be a clone or that either would have a unique moveset, so its just not a point to bring up at all.

 

[DekuBoy]

herm... i forbid myself from answering that question to the fullest as there are factors that are deemed opinions as well as the opinions of others in play on my decision for his non playability. sorry. (i also fear the starfy fans)
if he gets in, then... cool! but otherwise in my book he ain't viable.

you don't have to read this but:

Spoiler

(my book is completely different from everyone else's book considering that i use other peoples thoughts for me as well as my own mixed to a final decision, oh and the fact that others say the same thing and i take them into account, does not mean that i agree but i still have what they said and possibly use it against others)(you know what, this is probably why i am so confusing to understand, its like a schitzo trying to talk at once)

not really a spoiler but ... for people who don't want to read nonsense. (in their opinion)

Okay..... But from what I've seen the vast majority of people would like him playable. He has his own series which was successful in Japan and the US. I count all these things as important factors.


On the subject of Toad, I beleive that his moveset should consist of NSMBWii moves, SMB2 moves and Mario spinoff abilities.

 

[Cyn]

..........I am all for bringing in fresh blood. I support Toad in addition to Dixie Kong, King K. Rool, Meowth, Mewtwo, a new Pokemon (either Zoroark or someone newer, just don't be similar to Mewtwo and Lucario), Tingle (he is way more interesting and has more potential than the Balloon Fighter), the new protagonist from Golden Sun DS (I know he will be exactly like Isaac and Felix in that game anyway), a new Fire Emblem lord who is not a clone of Marth or Ike (and is not Roy, Lyn, and Micaiah), Starfy, Takamaru, Little Mac, Duck Hunt Dog (for the lulz like Mr. Game & Watch and R.O.B.), Mega Man, and a protagonist from Nintendo's new international and successful franchise (maybe The Last Story). So, do you see any potential clones from this wish list?

Meowth could be unique enough. I don't know much about the DK series characters to really comment on them (though haven't I read a proposed tag team with Dixie and Diddy?). Tingle would be way better than a baloon fighter. Golden Sun hasn't been done yet so that would be good. I don't know much about Starfy, but he looks kinda boring.

I think I've made my stance clear on Little Mac before.............he might be unique, albeit a little boring of a character (I think they'd have to take a few liberties with his moveset). I think Duck Hunt dog would be a cool assist trophy. If he was playable he would be too silly; I'd rather the spot on the roster be filled with someone worthy of recognition.


Mega Man could be a little "clone-y " if they don't watch it, but he should be easy enough to make fresh moves for, time permitting of course.

Your list runs little to no risk, imo, of having too many clones.

 

[Pieman0920]

Eh, whenever I think of new blood, I usually think of new series rather than third stringers from established ones. Thus I feel the that the focus should be on bringing in loads of newer series, rather than trying to milk the last drops out of older ones. The only characters from pre-established series that I think should get in are the ones who are really worth it, rather than just the next in line or something dumb like that.

EDIT: And I think I get what Arc misread about my post. Its not a matter of Toad not using moves that others can use, but rather the fact that as Toad only uses moves that others have used, that he could be a clone. If you didn't notice Arc, I edited my post earlier to respond to it.

 

[augustoflores]

some select factors: are all of starfys moves based on spinning? btw i haven't played it. its like sonic using the side b same like down b, kind of neut b, run a, smash up a, smash down a, grab down ****. (friggin ninty not knowing more about sonic. he has a great moveset already made for him in sonic battle)
if he gets in, then they should make him taller than kirby, in actuality starfy is taller. i don't have brawl to own so i cant check if they made him shorter than kirby and i dont want to go to youtube and hunt for a kirby/starfy smash comparison video. i am sure that they did make him smaller.

i really dislike it when games get retconned. i really, really like accuracy.

 

[Arcadenik]

Okay..... But from what I've seen the vast majority of people would like him playable. He has his own series which was successful in Japan and the US. I count all these things as important factors.

On the subject of Toad, I beleive that his moveset should consist of NSMBWii moves, SMB2 moves and Mario spinoff abilities.

I agree about Starfy right there. I understand why he wasn't playable in Brawl - he was Japan-only and a new franchise. At least Lucas was a Japan-only character in an international (although mostly Japan-only) franchise and is a clone of Ness.

And thank you! That's what I'm saying all along... that Toad should have a moveset consisting of NSMBWii, SMB2, and Mario Kart abilities. I mean, Toad's trophy in Melee and Brawl both talk about Toad's abilities in SMB2 and Mario Kart games and I think that Toad's SSB4 trophy would talk about NSMBWii in addition to SMB2 and Mario Kart.

Meowth could be unique enough. I don't know much about the DK series characters to really comment on them (though haven't I read a proposed tag team with Dixie and Diddy?). Tingle would be way better than a baloon fighter. Golden Sun hasn't been done yet so that would be good. I don't know much about Starfy, but he looks kinda boring.

I think I've made my stance clear on Little Mac before.............he might be unique, albeit a little boring of a character (I think they'd have to take a few liberties with his moveset). I think Duck Hunt dog would be a cool assist trophy. If he was playable he would be too silly; I'd rather the spot on the roster be filled with someone worthy of recognition.

Mega Man could be a little "clone-y " if they don't watch it, but he should be easy enough to make fresh moves for, time permitting of course.

Your list runs little to no risk, imo, of having too many clones.

Yeah, Meowth could be very unique. He would have scratches (he is known as the Scratch Cat Pokemon) so he could have fast but weak moves and he could use different versions of Pay Day for his specials. For example, the Pay Day from the Pokemon games (where Meowth throws a coin) could be his B move and the Pay Day from the original Smash could be his counter attack move (it could be called Payback from the Pokemon games and it is down+B) and his Final Smash would be the Pay Day from Brawl (just call it Super Pay Day and call it a day ). Meowth's side+B would have to be Fury Swipes where Meowth repeatedly scratches in a similar manner to Marth's side+B move and his up+B would be Faint Attack.

Dixie Kong could be a bit like Diddy Kong in terms of A moves but for her B moves, I think she could borrow her sister Tiny Kong's Feather Bow from DK64 for her B move and be able to float with her helicopter hair spin move from DKC2 (this could also be used as her up+B move). I think she could maybe fight with her hair like Medusa (from Marvel Comics).

Nothing is too silly to be playable in Smash. This is Nintendo we are talking about. We got a LCD stick figure and a NES peripheral as playable characters. The Duck Hunt Dog would be epic. Siccing ducks at the opponents and pointing at the opponents so the hunter (the Duck Hunt player) can shoot at the opponents and flying away with the ducks and throwing clay pigeons (white frisbees from the Clay Shooting mode). And his taunt would be his infamous laugh.

Eh, whenever I think of new blood, I usually think of new series rather than third stringers from established ones. Thus I feel the that the focus should be on bringing in loads of newer series, rather than trying to milk the last drops out of older ones. The only characters from pre-established series that I think should get in are the ones who are really worth it, rather than just the next in line or something dumb like that.

EDIT: And I think I get what Arc misread about my post. Its not a matter of Toad not using moves that others can use, but rather the fact that as Toad only uses moves that others have used, that he could be a clone. If you didn't notice Arc, I edited my post earlier to respond to it.

Oh, I do want more franchises represented in SSB4. But I also want a few characters from existing franchises. Toad, Meowth, Mewtwo, a new Pokemon from Black/White, Dixie Kong, King K. Rool, and a new Fire Emblem lord for the existing franchises. Tingle, Starfy, Takamaru, Little Mac, Duck Hunt Dog, Mega Man, the protagonist from Golden Sun DS, and a protagonist from a new Nintendo franchise (maybe The Last Story if it is successful) for the brand new franchises.

There aren't many noteworthy new franchises and most of them are rather obscure or not that successful. I mean, Drill Dozer, Fossil Fighters, Chibi-Robo, Custom Robo, Sin & Punishment, Captain Rainbow, etc.? At least the retro characters have the excuse of being obscure because that's the point of being retro.

 

[ElPanandero]

Let me write a list of characters that i would never have playable (not to be confused with "i would never play as")

My Forbidden:
Toad- Meh I care Not
Starfy- I'd prefer just about anyone over him, but am ok with it if he's in
Duck Hunt DogI'm with Arcade, this'd be awesome
Balloon FighterMost Wanted Retro, and in my most wanted top 5
Dixie Kong Another very wanted character, with Diddy of course
Funky Kong- Nah, pretty lame
Excite Bike Another wanted Retro, it'd be pretty awesome
Wolf Link/w Midna-Agreed, Worst characters suggestion ever in all of Smash history
MeowthMeh why not
Waluigi (almost forgot him)I'm cool with Walski
any anime character (unless nintendo owned, but alas)I could dig some anime characters (Let's go Yuske)
Edit: MiiLameity Lame
Galacta KnightAwful
Link/w MasksBest suggestion short of Old Young Link returning. Majora Link would be ana mazing character that I really would love to see
Louie Meh, it'd be cool
Ryu Hayabusa If that's the Ninja Gaiden, then yes.
GooeyI like Gooey
Chibi-Robo Be ool for laughs


On the Brink:
(my unknown status for--)Tingle (this means i cannot decide between a few major factors)-Nah, unless he's a summoner like Toise said...
(my unknown status for--)ZoroarkToo early to tell
(my unknown status for--)Toon ZeldaYes
(my unknown status for--)RidleyDon't care either way
(my unknown status for--)Simon Belmont (because i would rather want to get Alucard but the factors...)Sure, let's go Simon
(my unknown status for--)GenoNO!
Edit: (my unknown status for--)Tom NookNot a fighter, out.
(my unknown status for--)Knuckle Joe (not saying i would, but still) No.
(my unknown status for--)Kamek (im thinking he could work like roll from TvC, WHAT? could.)No
(my unknown status for--)Darkrai No, no legendaries outside Mewtwo
(my unknown status for--)Bowser Jr./w Shadow Mario If's he's got shadow MArio then Sure, without it's Meh for me

Comments in Bold

@Pie
in Games like Tekken (after the Bloodline Rebellion came out) Most characters were more or less balanced IIRC...I could be wrong.

 

[Cyn]

Nothing is too silly to be playable in Smash. This is Nintendo we are talking about. We got a LCD stick figure and a NES peripheral as playable characters. The Duck Hunt Dog would be epic. Siccing ducks at the opponents and pointing at the opponents so the hunter (the Duck Hunt player) can shoot at the opponents and flying away with the ducks and throwing clay pigeons (white frisbees from the Clay Shooting mode)..........

The LCD stick figure makes sense because G&W games are iconic. But I would be ok with DHD replacing ROB. I would've been happier with any character over ROB.

I really hope if there is a next smash, there are more iconic figures that started their life on Nintendo. Like Hayabusa mentioned below. And, of course, my personal hope: a Castlevania rep, since they still release new games for DS on a regular basis.

 

[Pieman0920]

Oh, I do want more franchises represented in SSB4. But I also want a few characters from existing franchises. Toad, Meowth, Mewtwo, a new Pokemon from Black/White, Dixie Kong, King K. Rool, and a new Fire Emblem lord for the existing franchises. Tingle, Starfy, Takamaru, Little Mac, Duck Hunt Dog, Mega Man, the protagonist from Golden Sun DS, and a protagonist from a new Nintendo franchise (maybe The Last Story if it is successful) for the brand new franchises.

There aren't many noteworthy new franchises and most of them are rather obscure or not that successful. I mean, Drill Dozer, Fossil Fighters, Chibi-Robo, Custom Robo, Sin & Punishment, Captain Rainbow, etc.? At least the retro characters have the excuse of being obscure because that's the point of being retro.

Meowth is mushing it too much in terms of milking the series too much. I'd also say that Mewtwo, DIxie, and K.Rool would be too, but to lesser degrees. A new FE lord or Pokemon has the pottential to be popular enough to warent a spot beyond milking the franchise dry, and Tingle has his own game series at this point. Everyone else you mentioned would simply be part of a new series, and thus okay by my book. (Well besides Duck Hunt Dog, because that's just silly) The more obscure yet recent games are actually prime games to get into Smash, because while the characters are not well known, they get attention from Smash, and thus something like what happened with Fire Emblem could happen again. In addition, I'd also have to point out that the term retro should be bumped up a gen or two to at least include the SNES, if not the N64 as well.

 

[DekuBoy]

Me loves Captain Rainbow.

But do you really consider K.Rool to be milking the series? He's an iconic villain and important to his series. Dixie was just another sidekick and I think Diddy has that role covered.

 

[Serph]

No offense implied, but if you were to want to be taken seriously, perhaps you shouldn't be posting ideas for a game that, first of all, has been hinted by Sakurai to not be happening and probably won't ever exist

Huh? Sakurai has basically said that if Nintendo asked him to make another Smash Brothers he would seriously consider it.

It will happen with or without him anyway.

 

[Pieman0920]

Me loves Captain Rainbow.

But do you really consider K.Rool to be milking the series? He's an iconic villain and important to his series. Dixie was just another sidekick and I think Diddy has that role covered.

I think I've gone down this road a thousand times or so by now.

In my opinion, K.Rool really can't be called iconic. He's simply the generic cookie cutter villain developed for the Donkey Kong Country series. There's nothing about him that honestly stands out from any other villain like this, and his popularity is dervived almost completely from his position in the series. (And don't even get me started on how the DK series really doesn't need another character) Thus I feel that adding him in would just be milking the series to try to get a villain out of it rather than a character. Quite frankly, the DK series is already somewhat covered in terms of having a villain (lol Mario) so there isn't any "need" for that, and even if Mario didn't count, it I must stress again that the Smash series isn't about bringing in old match up or "classic fights" or any of that BS, but rather about crossover fights between Nintendo's iconic mascots. At the very least Dixie Kong was given her own game, and could have been a unique character with Diddy, but then again, I wouldn't really think she's all that deserving either.

 

[Krazy Monkey]

Here's my two cents on the Pokemon series. Obviously there are alot of good fighters in the series that could be in the next installment. And they are:

Meowth (Correct me if im wrong but he was conisidered to be playable for SSB.)
Mewtwo (He was playable in Melee and is part of the forbidden 7.)
Pichu (He was playable in Melee and HG and SS increased it's chances a little imo.)
Plusle and Minun (Part of the Forbidden 7 and by Nintendo's track record I think remakes of Ruby and Sapphire will be made thus increasing there chances a little.)
Zoroark (New flavor of the month Pokemon and will be in the next movie.)
New Pokemon Trainer Leaf, Gold, or Generation 5 trainer. (Any of these trainers could be in the one but honestly I'd rather for Red to be the only trainer in the game.)

The thing is Pokemon will probably get 5 open spots and we all know Pikachu and Jigglypuff will take a spot. So now there is only 3 spots available. Now the question is who's getting in? And who's getting replaced? Will Lucario stay or get the boot? Is a new Pokemon trainer a good idea? Remember most characters that were meant to be in SSB and Melee became playable later on in the series. So I wouldn't count out Meowth, Mewtwo, or Plusle and Minun just yet. *said the noob.* :D

 

[DekuBoy]

I think I've gone down this road a thousand times or so by now.

In my opinion, K.Rool really can't be called iconic. He's simply the generic cookie cutter villain developed for the Donkey Kong Country series. There's nothing about him that honestly stands out from any other villain like this, and his popularity is dervived almost completely from his position in the series. (And don't even get me started on how the DK series really doesn't need another character) Thus I feel that adding him in would just be milking the series to try to get a villain out of it rather than a character. Quite frankly, the DK series is already somewhat covered in terms of having a villain (lol Mario) so there isn't any "need" for that, and even if Mario didn't count, it I must stress again that the Smash series isn't about bringing in old match up or "classic fights" or any of that BS, but rather about crossover fights between Nintendo's iconic mascots. At the very least Dixie Kong was given her own game, and could have been a unique character with Diddy, but then again, I wouldn't really think she's all that deserving either.

I think a lot of people (me included) love K.Rool so I guess he's like Marmite. Either love it or hate it.

And milking series isn't that bad as long as characters are relevant. Unlike say, Dr Mario. If K.Rool has an original moveset then I don't see his inclusion wasted whatsoever.

 

[Pieman0920]

@KM: Meowth wasn't considered for SSB 64. Mewtwo was, but not Meowth.

@DB: I really question where you're getting it that people "love" K.Rool for anything, but in spite of my distaste for him, he does have his chances. The moveset thing doesn't really factor into whether a franchises is being "milked" in my opinion, but its true that putting Dr. Mario back in, at least in a form where he takes a spot, would be pretty bad.

 

[Serph]

The thing is Pokemon will probably get 5 open spots

What makes you say that? The fact that Mewtwo and Plusle/Minun were planned shows that at one stage they were prepared to give Pokemon six slots in Brawl, so we shouldn't make any assumptions about how many it'll get in the next game.

I'd be happy with Pikachu, Pokemon Trainer, Jigglypuff, Mewtwo, Lucario and a fifth gen monster.

 

[Collective of Bears]

@KM: Meowth wasn't considered for SSB 64. Mewtwo was, but not Meowth.

I'm pretty sure Meowth was considered for SSB64.

SmashWiki sez:
"Meowth was one of several characters considered during development to be playable in the original Super Smash Bros., but ultimately cut from the original roster due to time constraints. Meowth shares this distinction with Bowser, Pit, King Dedede, Mewtwo, and Peach. Of all these characters, Meowth is the only one to have remained unplayable thus far. "

 

[DekuBoy]

I wrote out a response but SWF is screwing up again.

In short: K.Rool has lots of fans. That's why he is always suggested. Not cause of representation.

 

[Pieman0920]

I'm pretty sure Meowth was considered for SSB64.

SmashWiki sez:
"Meowth was one of several characters considered during development to be playable in the original Super Smash Bros., but ultimately cut from the original roster due to time constraints. Meowth shares this distinction with Bowser, Pit, King Dedede, Mewtwo, and Peach. Of all these characters, Meowth is the only one to have remained unplayable thus far. "

Its been rumored yes, but that's it. Rumors. I guess I shouldn't have said "considered" or anything like that, but what I really meant to say was that Meowth wasn't programmed in as far as anyone knows. Like the 7 unplayable characters that had data in Brawl, there was a similar situation in Smash 64, where Mewtwo, Bowser, and King Dedede had data. Pit, Peach, and Meowth are just rumors, and there is nothing out there that really signifies if they would have been considered or not. (Its on the Smash wiki though because...well that's a wiki. Anyone can edit that thing. There's no real source for it either, and there are other pages where Smash 64 pottential characters are listed, but Meowth isn't on the lists)

@ Deku

But how many times do you hear that a K.Rool Supporter wants him in beyond reasons that he is the main DK villain?

 

[Shorts]

While looking through my closet today I came across a game that I had a short lived addiction to, it was Muramasa: The Demon Blade, idk if the majority of you have played it but I think Momohime would be an awesome 3rd party character. Momohime is a girl who is possesed by this evil spirit who was a crazy good swordsman when he was alive, so now they have this small japanese girl running around obliterating her opponents and doing so in a kimono ^.^
Her moves would almost all be sword based considering the only way to use any sort of projectile is kill enough ppl to save up for your special attack.
She carries three swords so that could give her three b moves based on each swords special attack. and her down b could be her taking out her pot and cooking some food and then eating it, which would take her % down some. However you could stop her by attacking her while she is still cooking.
She would be a cross between shiek, link, and meta knight. She would be fast moving like shiek, and her sword slashes would look like meta knights in a way, but not be so rapid and about the same speed as links.

And yes, both meowth and mewtwo were considered for ssb64, but werent added in due to time restrictions. Peach, Bowser, Pit, and DeDeDe were going to be added as well but were left out for the same reason. So far only poor old meowth hasnt been in a game. And probably never will be...

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

Its been rumored yes, but that's it. Rumors. I guess I shouldn't have said "considered" or anything like that, but what I really meant to say was that Meowth wasn't programmed in as far as anyone knows. Like the 7 unplayable characters that had data in Brawl, there was a similar situation in Smash 64, where Mewtwo, Bowser, and King Dedede had data. Pit, Peach, and Meowth are just rumors, and there is nothing out there that really signifies if they would have been considered or not. (Its on the Smash wiki though because...well that's a wiki. Anyone can edit that thing. There's no real source for it either, and there are other pages where Smash 64 pottential characters are listed, but Meowth isn't on the lists)

Backing this up, Sakurai's page for 64 also outright mentions having planned Bowser, Mewtwo and Dedede. If the other three were planned as well, he probably would've mentioned them.

Didn't we have a discussion about this with Arcadenik a while back?



@Pieman: People do love K. Rool. Usually fans mention stuff like villain/female/etc. status because they think it makes a better case for their character. And it sorta works since non-fans typically end up going "well, I guess he's okay then, I don't really know anything about that series."

 

[Arcadenik]

Mewtwo - planned to be in SSB64 (confirmed), playable in Melele
Bowser - planned to be in SSB64 (confirmed), playable in Melee and Brawl
King Dedede - planned to be in SSB64 (confirmed), playable in Brawl
Pit - planned to be in SSB64 (rumored), playable in Brawl
Peach - planned to be in SSB64 (rumored), playable in Melee and Brawl
Meowth - planned to be in SSB64 (rumored), still not playable in any Smash game so far

Notice the pattern? All six characters are either confirmed or rumored to be planned to be in SSB64 but only Meowth is not playable yet. I hope Meowth will be playable but there are some people who want to keep Meowth out of the roster because they fear he will take away the spot from Jigglypuff or Mewtwo or any new Pokemon from Black/White and because they think Meowth have no moves and because they think the addition of Meowth would be over-repping the first generation and thus a Pokemon from different generations should be added for the sake of having different Pokemon from different generations (this reason is very similar to adding females/villains for the sake of having females/villains).

 

[Starphoenix]

I hope Meowth will be playable but there are some people who want to keep Meowth out of the roster because they fear he will take away the spot from Jigglypuff or Mewtwo or any new Pokemon from Black/White and because they think Meowth have no moves and because they think the addition of Meowth would be over-repping the first generation and thus a Pokemon from different generations should be added for the sake of having different Pokemon from different generations (this reason is very similar to adding females/villains for the sake of having females/villains).

Whatever happened to having characters added because people actually like them? I am sick of the "quota" mentality everybody takes in regards to character development. Sure, no one wants a game oversaturated by one single party, but again define oversaturation? It can come down to semantics in that case. Though I think everyone can generally agree that anything above ten roster blocks per franchise is a reasonable definition for "oversaturation".

 

[Serph]

It works both ways, too. A lot of people seem to think that Mario and Zelda deserve more playable characters, but if all the big names are already there then what can you do? There's no point in bringing in fringe characters just so you can say "look, this important series has plenty of representatives".

Bowser Jr. is a possibility for Mario, but I really don't think Zelda has many other viable options. Instead of scraping the barrel for a newcomer they should just treat Ganondorf as a new character and give him his own moveset. (Although as I said a few pages back, key moves and those that are already unique to him should remain)

 

[Arcadenik]

For the Zelda series, Sakurai considered Toon Zelda (and Toon Sheik) for Brawl, though I am not too excited over the idea of two more clones. So I would like Tingle to be added even though he might be represented under his own series (his icon could be a Rupee or something Tingle-related instead of the Triforce).

Oh, and I am not too interested about Ganondorf getting a sword. He never used it in Ocarina of Time, let alone own one (I know, I played it last night). It is no wonder why Sakurai turned him into a Captain Falcon clone. They should just add a magical projectile from OOT to his Warlock Punch to make him a bit more different from Captain Falcon.

For the Mario series, you got Bowser Jr. and Toad. Either one is a possibility (it would be nice to get both) and I am rooting for Toad (in case we don't get both and mainly because I see Bowser Jr. as a potential clone). I don't think Bowser Jr. and Toad could be considered fringe characters because they have strong ties to the main Mario canon as they consistently have story-related roles on a recurring basis. Fringe characters would be Dr. Mario (and we all know he was added as a filler clone), Waluigi, Daisy, and especially Geno.

 

[Serph]

Oh, and I am not too interested about Ganondorf getting a sword. He never used it in Ocarina of Time, let alone own one (I know, I played it last night). It is no wonder why Sakurai turned him into a Captain Falcon clone. They should just add a magical projectile from OOT to his Warlock Punch to make him a bit more different from Captain Falcon.

I never said anything about a sword. All I want to see is a unique moveset. Even if Sakurai didn't want to give him a weapon, there's still no excuse for him being a Falcon clone.

Either way, he used a sword in the Spaceworld demo (which featured in his Melee celebration and trophy), Twilight Princess, and had two in Wind Waker. So it's still an option. A combination of swordplay and kick attacks (uair, dair, ftilt, dtilt) would be very fitting if you ask me, and would give him extra range and some nice disjointed hitboxes.

For the Mario series, you got Bowser Jr. and Toad. Either one is a possibility (it would be nice to get both) and I am rooting for Toad (in case we don't get both and mainly because I see Bowser Jr. as a potential clone). I don't think Bowser Jr. and Toad could be considered fringe characters because they have strong ties to the main Mario canon as they consistently have story-related roles on a recurring basis. Fringe characters would be Dr. Mario (and we all know he was added as a filler clone), Waluigi, Daisy, and especially Geno.

Well Toad is still nowhere near the level of Mario, Luigi, Peach and Bowser, and I personally don't think he's worth a playable spot anyway.

Not even going to comment on Tingle. All I'll say is "ugh".

 

[ElPanandero]

Alright here we go:

@StarPheonix: Avoiding too-many-of-one-series in Smash helps to keep the majority of fans happy. While that isn't really a main factor, why purposely make people annoyed when you don't need to. If Mario is getting 9 characters, but lonely old Falcon is still by himself, how should F-Zero fans feel. They're gonna be pissed. While it may not ruin sales or anything, having fans not be upset with your decisions is always a good route to go.

Serph: You and everyone else know my stance on Ganon.

@Arcade/Serph: Toon Zelda is becoming a far more viable option with the release of Spirit tracks with her new more active role therein. Doesn't she have spirit possession powers or something? I think that could at least be grounds to create a semi-unique set...or you know have Zelda use moves that she actually did at some point, and not the bonus treasures of OoT link.

 

[Serph]

Just digging up a post I missed from a few pages back:

and Ganondorf is starting to lose importance in the Zelda series

What?

How do you work that one out? Ganondorf is just as important to the Zelda series now as he ever was. The only games he tends not to feature in are handheld instalments.

 

[Arcadenik]

@ Serph

No one is saying Toad is near the level of Mario, Luigi, Peach, and Bowser. It seems as if you think that if a character is added, that means that character is very important in their franchise and is just as important as the main character/mascot of said franchise.

For me, I think Toad would be an interesting fighter in SSB4. He would be your classic "small, speedy lightweight" fighter, only he got superhuman strength to back him up. I think his fight style could be something like a hit-and-run style.

- Iceballs (New Super Mario Bros. Wii) - it could be useful for freezing enemies when their percentages are over 100% so Toad can smash them offstage easily or Toad could lift and carry the frozen opponent with reduced resistance
- Toad Kart (Super Mario Kart) - it is perfect for a high-speed hit-and-run assault on the ground and in the air (using the feather, of course)
- Propeller Mushroom (New Super Mario Bros. Wii) - it would be very useful as a recovery move where Toad propels very high and it could also be useful for getting out of crowded situations quickly and Toad could also attack from above with a drill kick move
- Vegetables (Super Mario Bros. 2) - Peach pulls out small vegetables but Toad pulls out bigger vegetables (a demonstration of his superhuman strength) that dish out more damage
- Picking up & carrying (Super Mario Bros. 2) - Toad could grab an opponent and then picks them up overhead and be able to carry them around, this move would be useful for throwing opponents offstage
- Wall running (Wario's Woods) - Toad could run on walls to escape from situations where he could be trapped by getting chain-grabbed like on Shadow Moses Island

And F-Zero wasn't that great of a franchise, sorry, but it is almost a dead franchise with its last game in 2003. Why would a dead franchise get a second playable character? I mean, it is one thing to give a dead franchise one playable character because that's the point of retro characters, it is a different story for adding characters to dead franchises that already have a playable character. And you forgot one of the basic laws of human nature and fanboyism, it is IMPOSSIBLE to make all fans happy.

@ ElPanandero

Just because Toon Zelda was active in only one game doesn't mean she is a very viable option. Let's not forget that Zelda's new possession powers only came to her when she died and became a ghost. So, now she isn't dead and is alive again, why would she have ghost powers? And I thought Zelda's specials made sense to her since the three magical spells in OOT were named after the goddesses and Zelda is connected to the goddesses (personally, I think Din's Fire was more based on the Fire spell in Zelda II). Also, Zelda doesn't really fight so Sakurai had to come up with something that fits Zelda's character. That's another reason why I thought the three spells from OOT made sense for Zelda's specials.

 

[Arcadenik]

Just digging up a post I missed from a few pages back:

What?

How do you work that one out? Ganondorf is just as important to the Zelda series now as he ever was. The only games he tends not to feature in are handheld instalments.

Ganondorf only had three games. OOT, TWW, and TP. Also, I belive that in TP he was originally planned to NOT be in the game but was added in the last minute to please the OOT fans and then he got killed again. So now we have two dead Ganondorfs in both timelines. What if the new Zelda game with the new fairy-sword-spirit-girl character doesn't feature Ganondorf? I am not saying Ganondorf should be removed because of that, I am merely stating that Ganondorf is starting to lose importance in the Zelda series.

 

[Serph]

@ Serph

No one is saying Toad is near the level of Mario, Luigi, Peach, and Bowser. It seems as if you think that if a character is added, that means that character is very important in their franchise and is just as important as the main character/mascot of said franchise.

They don't necessarily have to be of vital importance, but "Toad" isn't even treated as a character in his own right. It's just a generic Mushroom Kingdom race.

Ganondorf only had three games. OOT, TWW, and TP. Also, I belive that in TP he was originally planned to NOT be in the game but was added in the last minute to please the OOT fans and then he got killed again. So now we have two dead Ganondorfs in both timelines. What if the new Zelda game with the new fairy-sword-spirit-girl character doesn't feature Ganondorf? I am not saying Ganondorf should be removed because of that, I am merely stating that Ganondorf is starting to lose importance in the Zelda series.

Ganondorf is Ganon, and together they've featured in every console Zelda with the exception of one. Even if you want to treat them as separate characters, why would you say he's "only" appeared in three games? That's 3/4 console outings since his debut...

There's also no evidence to suggets that he was only added to TP at the last minute... :/

Link, Zelda and Ganondorf will always be central to the series because they represent the three Triforce segments. The fact that Ganondorf (seemingly) died at the end of TP means nothing, because it's been shown (as early as the second game) that he can be revived. Additionally, he was sealed in stone by the Master Sword at the end of Wind Waker, not killed.

There's absolutely nothing to suggest that G'dorf is losing his importance to the Zelda series, and I will be very surprised if he isn't the main antagonist in Zelda Wii.

 

[Arcadenik]

Don't start with the "generic" thing again. Toad is an individual and a species. Just like Yoshi is an individual and a species. Also, let's not forget that Toad and Yoshi are the only generic species who are ever playable in non-spin-off games. Yeah, they are the only species to be playable in main games. That makes Toad and Yoshi rank way higher than Goomba, Koopa, Shy Guy, Boo, etc. Toad could even be the red Toad, the leader of the Toad Brigade, in Super Mario Sunshine/Galaxy. There was that screenshot in Super Mario Galaxy showing the red Toad wearing a blue vest with the rest of the Toad Brigade in the intro.

All right, but I would be surprised if Ganondorf doesn't appear in Zelda Wii, too.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

Are there any "logic" posts from Arcadenik that aren't horribly biased?



@Panera Bread: I don't know your stance on Ganon, but I was recently reminded of how awesome Phantom Ganon in OoT looked with a lance. He should use those more often. Actually everyone should use lances more often.

 

[augustoflores]

what if zoras or gorons were playable? i am not referring to masks. (disclaimer: i am not saying it is a good idea so don't rave at me)

@ganondorf stuff: selectable alt final smash: magical ganondorf. (just a suggestion, don't rave this either)

one more thing, shadow mario costume for mario that doesn't affect him in any way. if daisy is still limited to peach, then voice change for daisy palette, shadow palette, dark link palette, etc.

 

[Starphoenix]

@Panera Bread: I don't know your stance on Ganon, but I was recently reminded of how awesome Phantom Ganon in OoT looked with a lance. He should use those more often. Actually everyone should use lances more often.

If only Ephraim from FE:SS had been received better...

 

[Shorts]

wow, so much to comment on and all i have is a wii D:
here i go:

El Panandero, if im not mistaken you once became very upset when I said i think Ganondorf needs an overhaul of move changes, soo i assume you like where he stands, no?
And everyone needs to remember Roy got in ssbm with only having one game appearence. And i think that game came out after melee no less, while im not saying totally disregaurd the amount of appearences a character has had just remember Roy. So Toon Zelda, much to my dismay could have gotten in like Roy. Heck dhe almost was in!


@Serph I agree with you 100% on toad being a generic race, i mean they dont call mario human and bowser koopa, yet every toad, excluding toadette & toadsworth, is just called toad. I would much prefer Bowser Jr, he stood out to the creatores of all the mario games and has albiet not become a staple mario villian, still is important. He had to compete with seven distinct koopalings and the mario party koopa kids. (there was four different versions, normal colored, red, blue, and green) And....... I even enjoy the thought of Daisy in smash.......

And one last thing to add to the decline of Ganondorfs power, can anybody say, Agahnim?


Edit: I think I have an idea to help ease the pain of specific pkmn gens being totally unrepped. the level: Pokéearth! It would work just like Delfino plaza in brawl, but instead going to one well recognized town/mt./route from each land.
Kanto could be The veridean forest, or mt. moon. Leaf, Red and blue are battling in the background.
Johto you could land on bell tower and watch ho-oh soar around the city. The background could show where you first meet the legendary dogs, as well as the kimono dance studio. Gold Silver and the girl could be walking around the town.
Hoenn could be the Mauville city bike path, where trainers whizz by on their mach bikes. Maybe throw brandon and may in as cameos? in the background you could see the mauville powerplant entrance and plusle and minun there.
Sinnoh would be spear pillar, after using the azure flute. Lucas and Dawn could make cameos.

 

[Pieman0920]

Ugh, my internet has been really acting up on me.

Anyways, in regards to Meowth, its still just a rumor that he'd be in Smash 64, and as it stands, there is no proof that he was ever planned to be playable. The fact that he was a Pokeball pokemon while Mewtwo, a confirmed planned character, probably indicates that Meowth was never planned. Heck, it makes no sense that they would have planned four Pokemon for that first game.

In regards to Toad, I still can't see his neutral special being the ice ball, since that's really not a signature move of his. Its like if Yoshi got his freeze breath from Yoshi's Island as his neutral special or something. Also running up the walls like that makes no sense. For one you assume that chain grabs will occur in Smash 4, and secondly, you assume that somehow he can get out of it, as to run up the wall, but disregard the very nature of a chain grab.

And also you never addressed the possibility that Toad has as likely a chance to be a clone as Bowser Jr. does. Look at Luigi's moveset, and tell me anything in there that wouldn't apply to Toad. Toad used fireballs in NSMBWii, as well as basically preformed a jump punch. The Luigi Cyclone and Green Missle are also just as easy to copy over, and heck, even Negative Zone is. Most of Luigi's regular moves also would work out perfectly with Toad.