Big-Cat
Challenge accepted.
Actually, IIRC, Wolf is the only one on the roster who DIDN'T have a personal theme planned.
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[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!
- Thread starter SamuraiPanda
- Start date
- Status
Dracospawn
Smash Journeyman
Most of you. Did you really think that anyone would look through 28,000+ comments? I'm just now joining this thread. I skimed though about 4 pages.
Even though most people probably wouldn't, nintendo probably wants people to try to get to know and find out about these characters. Nintendo does need some new blood and many new things, but they shouldn't totally get rid of these characters out of the question. If they do, they should consider very carefully which ones to get rid of. Even though for some reason they didn't do this completly with brawl, they need to consider the fighting styles of the players, some will rant about such and such a character being gone. I can only imagine the revolt from the players when mewtwo wasn't in brawl. And if these dead characters are so little known, they can practically be treated as new characters, correct me if I'm wrong, literally.
UberMario
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jun 17, 2009
- Messages
- 3,312
I forgot about that . . .
@Pieman:
See: I'm repeating my points because you're not quite getting it. We haven't had any indication that Sakurai truthfully cares for the status of series, since after brawl the only installed series that "Ended" Was Mother, and apparently Kirby. None have ended before, so we truthfully don't know. Heck, that wasn't even on Sakurai's Critera. Until you get me some proof of matching up recent games to brawl appearences with supporting characters, there is no evidence we have.
We've never been in a situation where a series has just been "Dropped" Yet still has supporting characters that are certainly worthy of a spot. We now are, so I don't think either of us really have any true judgement asides from the Evolving/Static theory. Which the Evolving side is certainly the one you seem to believe in.
Now If you believe Lucas is Overkill: Too bad. Sakurai doesn't. Most other people don't seem to care/be fine with it.
Anyways: We're not expanding for the sake of expanding. The series already started with Lucas with expanding, so why not finish that? To me, when an Installed series meant to get more than one character added gets there, It's meant to tell It's story.
And as I keep saying, supporting characters get more and more obscure in how known they are. Claus and Masked Man still stand out in plot in Mother. Krystal still stands out in the plot in Star Fox. They're going to get obscure, and yet at the same time, nobody cares. It's infact done great things for many series in Smash. You stating this is a problem is pretty much you on your own. If It turns into a problem, it can very well be fixed.
Furthermore, It wasn't just characters that sold the series. Sure they helped, but the inventive gameplay like having 2v2 and the simplicity of it also got the word spreading around quickly. We're now in 10 years later where we've been opened up to many options. Little Big Planet for example has an amazing level editor. Smash doesn't. There's many things that could be done outside of that to sell a game. See, you missed this part:
Which speaking of which, Mother started Pokemon. If It wasn't for Marth and Roy in Melee, some people I know would have never been opened up to Fire Emblem. Heck, that's the only series I've ever had no knowledge of prior to Smash. If It wasn't for Snake, you wouldn't even have been able to ADD Megaman into this discussion. Why do people take what a series does for granite?
Finally: No, they don't have to fit Critera's in my book. Those categories come down to how many there are, which is what you're looking at, more so like this:
25 games/filler games, 25 games/filler games, 100 games, 100 games, 3 games/dead, 3 games/dead
And further more, you are simply clinging onto the series. Just being recent shouldn't matter because this is about Nintendo's entire History. Did we dump that word out too?
For sure finally:
I'm not being on my own satisfaction. Mother just happens to be in a situation we haven't been in before, and as I said, I've very much turned fond of each series having all there important characters. DK Gets Dixie and Rool, Mother gets Claus and Pokey, F-Zero gets Black Shadow and Goroh (Possibly Jody but that's a different topic), Wario gets Syrup and Mona (Possibly T), Fox gets Krystal, Yoshi gets Kamek, LoZ Gets...Whoever, Mario gets Jr and Toad (Well, debateable once more. Whatever), etc.
See? It's a "You can have your cake and Eat it too" Nothing wrong in that viewpoint. It's finishing what a series started. And really, you're stating like the recaction to these two will hurt the game. No character has had a hurtful reaction by many. Of course, there's been the 35 character roster reaction but that was mainly of how much hype was grounded up at the time. You never know what sometimes a character can do.
Infact, to be quite honest, most characters in Smash got a rather big popularity boost from it rather than the contrary along with being more Posistive with obscure characters.
Rumor: Most of them are false.
Theories: Those too.
Anyways, the thing is, supporting characters are unneeded to Third-Parties. There's no need, it creates law havoc, etc. Having other new companies asides from just Capcom however? Yeah, I'm fine with that.
Suggesting Misrepresentation is Awesome!
See: I'm repeating my points because you're not quite getting it. We haven't had any indication that Sakurai truthfully cares for the status of series, since after brawl the only installed series that "Ended" Was Mother, and apparently Kirby. None have ended before, so we truthfully don't know. Heck, that wasn't even on Sakurai's Critera. Until you get me some proof of matching up recent games to brawl appearences with supporting characters, there is no evidence we have.
We've never been in a situation where a series has just been "Dropped" Yet still has supporting characters that are certainly worthy of a spot. We now are, so I don't think either of us really have any true judgement asides from the Evolving/Static theory. Which the Evolving side is certainly the one you seem to believe in.
Now If you believe Lucas is Overkill: Too bad. Sakurai doesn't. Most other people don't seem to care/be fine with it.
Anyways: We're not expanding for the sake of expanding. The series already started with Lucas with expanding, so why not finish that? To me, when an Installed series meant to get more than one character added gets there, It's meant to tell It's story.
And as I keep saying, supporting characters get more and more obscure in how known they are. Claus and Masked Man still stand out in plot in Mother. Krystal still stands out in the plot in Star Fox. They're going to get obscure, and yet at the same time, nobody cares. It's infact done great things for many series in Smash. You stating this is a problem is pretty much you on your own. If It turns into a problem, it can very well be fixed.
Furthermore, It wasn't just characters that sold the series. Sure they helped, but the inventive gameplay like having 2v2 and the simplicity of it also got the word spreading around quickly. We're now in 10 years later where we've been opened up to many options. Little Big Planet for example has an amazing level editor. Smash doesn't. There's many things that could be done outside of that to sell a game. See, you missed this part:
Read that carefully. I clearly said how it was never the only thing that sold it, and just saying "HEY LOOK: WE HAVE POPULAR CHARACTERS" Is a horrid way to sell your game.
Which speaking of which, Mother started Pokemon. If It wasn't for Marth and Roy in Melee, some people I know would have never been opened up to Fire Emblem. Heck, that's the only series I've ever had no knowledge of prior to Smash. If It wasn't for Snake, you wouldn't even have been able to ADD Megaman into this discussion. Why do people take what a series does for granite?
Finally: No, they don't have to fit Critera's in my book. Those categories come down to how many there are, which is what you're looking at, more so like this:
25 games/filler games, 25 games/filler games, 100 games, 100 games, 3 games/dead, 3 games/dead
And further more, you are simply clinging onto the series. Just being recent shouldn't matter because this is about Nintendo's entire History. Did we dump that word out too?
For sure finally:
Uh no. Let's get one thing straight: I have an entirely different viewpoint than yours. You're saying we shouldn't add more mother/supporting characters to certain series because of the statuses of the series. I'm viewing them as telling there story and not just expanding for the sake of expanding.
I'm not being on my own satisfaction. Mother just happens to be in a situation we haven't been in before, and as I said, I've very much turned fond of each series having all there important characters. DK Gets Dixie and Rool, Mother gets Claus and Pokey, F-Zero gets Black Shadow and Goroh (Possibly Jody but that's a different topic), Wario gets Syrup and Mona (Possibly T), Fox gets Krystal, Yoshi gets Kamek, LoZ Gets...Whoever, Mario gets Jr and Toad (Well, debateable once more. Whatever), etc.
See? It's a "You can have your cake and Eat it too" Nothing wrong in that viewpoint. It's finishing what a series started. And really, you're stating like the recaction to these two will hurt the game. No character has had a hurtful reaction by many. Of course, there's been the 35 character roster reaction but that was mainly of how much hype was grounded up at the time. You never know what sometimes a character can do.
Infact, to be quite honest, most characters in Smash got a rather big popularity boost from it rather than the contrary along with being more Posistive with obscure characters.
Addition: Not the key focus
Rumor: Most of them are false.
Theories: Those too.
Anyways, the thing is, supporting characters are unneeded to Third-Parties. There's no need, it creates law havoc, etc. Having other new companies asides from just Capcom however? Yeah, I'm fine with that.
NinjaFoxX
Banned via Warnings
this threads always moving too fast huh?...
My hopes and dreams(Most likely not acheived):
-I definately do NOT want every Sonic Character. That seems like it would be EXTREMELY annoying to have Big, Amy, Cream, and a few other annoying characters. I would be fine with Sonic, Shadow, Knux, MAYBE Silver, Blaze and very little hopes for Tails(It would be annoying, but hes a classic, so you cant argue)
-I would love it if Roy and Mewtwo would return
-If it ends up being on the Wii, maybe make unique use of the Wii remote, I was kinda hoping for that with Brawl, and that doesnt mean the gamecube controller should be useless
-Better Online options. Maybe make use of the Wii speak and make it less random, maybe have the option to add people easier as friends for rematches another day, also a better idea with spectator mode is to put stats on the players like Wins-Losses, and which character they usually use, so your not wasting coins based off nothing
-While we're discussing online, it needs more options, like being able to select if you want Time, Stock or coin matches when you go into a random match, you should be able to choose whether you want items on or off
-The game needs...MEGAMAN! And of course to go with him, it could also use Protoman, Bass and Zero...maybe. And Gutsman('s *** XD)...ok, maybe not
-Other New Characters that I havent mentioned, but would be awesome: Waluigi(OK, Maybe not), Bowser Jr, Cloud(JK, though it would be awesome to see him in a SSB like fighting game, he doesnt really belong there, but there are pleanty of other FF characters[and KH characters for that matter] that would make any fighting game AWESOME), abd of course a Mii(ok, again, JK, thats completely stupid XD), and there are many others that would be awesome but I cant really think of them at the moment
-Also I would love to see them bring back every stage frome every previous game along with pleanty of new stages(Though, that may be way more stages than nessesary...but there are a lot of stages from previous games that I love)
-(Kinda off topic but) I hope they make a new Kid Icarus game for Wii or something, Including Pit in Brawl kinda got my hopes up for something like that
-Other than that, just improve the characters a bit, their moves and movement anyway, for instance I was AMAZING with Link in Melee, even better than I was with Young Link, in Brawl I SUCK with link and can ONLY use Toon Link...if I ever want to use a Link at all anymore
-I definately do NOT want every Sonic Character. That seems like it would be EXTREMELY annoying to have Big, Amy, Cream, and a few other annoying characters. I would be fine with Sonic, Shadow, Knux, MAYBE Silver, Blaze and very little hopes for Tails(It would be annoying, but hes a classic, so you cant argue)
-I would love it if Roy and Mewtwo would return
-If it ends up being on the Wii, maybe make unique use of the Wii remote, I was kinda hoping for that with Brawl, and that doesnt mean the gamecube controller should be useless
-Better Online options. Maybe make use of the Wii speak and make it less random, maybe have the option to add people easier as friends for rematches another day, also a better idea with spectator mode is to put stats on the players like Wins-Losses, and which character they usually use, so your not wasting coins based off nothing
-While we're discussing online, it needs more options, like being able to select if you want Time, Stock or coin matches when you go into a random match, you should be able to choose whether you want items on or off
-The game needs...MEGAMAN! And of course to go with him, it could also use Protoman, Bass and Zero...maybe. And Gutsman('s *** XD)...ok, maybe not
-Other New Characters that I havent mentioned, but would be awesome: Waluigi(OK, Maybe not), Bowser Jr, Cloud(JK, though it would be awesome to see him in a SSB like fighting game, he doesnt really belong there, but there are pleanty of other FF characters[and KH characters for that matter] that would make any fighting game AWESOME), abd of course a Mii(ok, again, JK, thats completely stupid XD), and there are many others that would be awesome but I cant really think of them at the moment
-Also I would love to see them bring back every stage frome every previous game along with pleanty of new stages(Though, that may be way more stages than nessesary...but there are a lot of stages from previous games that I love)
-(Kinda off topic but) I hope they make a new Kid Icarus game for Wii or something, Including Pit in Brawl kinda got my hopes up for something like that
-Other than that, just improve the characters a bit, their moves and movement anyway, for instance I was AMAZING with Link in Melee, even better than I was with Young Link, in Brawl I SUCK with link and can ONLY use Toon Link...if I ever want to use a Link at all anymore
Dracospawn
Smash Journeyman
My list of characters I would like to see in SSB4
Jack(madworld): This ultra violent character would normally be the last though for SSB4. He has a prosthetic arm complete with retractable chainsaw. Here he cannot be nearly as violent and cannot be in the slightest gory. He can come into brawl using primarly punchs, kicks and his chainsaw. He won't get to cut anyone in half here though. He also cannot cuss, I chuckle thinking that when jack gets K.Oed he says "DA****" but he will have to make a sound of pain here, if he is included. This may sound stupid to some of you but cool to me. This characters art style would be also in question, being that everything from his game is in black and white, except the blood and lives. Bringing a stage from the madworld series would be next to impossible, unless it has no music, because many of madworld's songs contain profanity.
Siegfried(soul caliber series): He seems like he would be in the middleweight catagory with a lot muscle. N He is a not-really-brutal character who is pretty heroic, the works. He can come with sword, Gram. He will be limited in trophy profile though, being his....disturbed past. He should not be a clone of ike, he will represent competition though
gray fox(metal gear solid series): This character is an assist trophy in brawl his coolness has been seen, but we would all like to see him do more than run a fast slashing like metaknight.
more metroid characters: Dark samus, maybe characters from hunters etc...
characters I would NOT like to see
Naruto: I should not, and WILL not say anything about this. Believe it
Characters from marvel: They already have a game where many of them cross over.
Jack(madworld): This ultra violent character would normally be the last though for SSB4. He has a prosthetic arm complete with retractable chainsaw. Here he cannot be nearly as violent and cannot be in the slightest gory. He can come into brawl using primarly punchs, kicks and his chainsaw. He won't get to cut anyone in half here though. He also cannot cuss, I chuckle thinking that when jack gets K.Oed he says "DA****" but he will have to make a sound of pain here, if he is included. This may sound stupid to some of you but cool to me. This characters art style would be also in question, being that everything from his game is in black and white, except the blood and lives. Bringing a stage from the madworld series would be next to impossible, unless it has no music, because many of madworld's songs contain profanity.
Siegfried(soul caliber series): He seems like he would be in the middleweight catagory with a lot muscle. N He is a not-really-brutal character who is pretty heroic, the works. He can come with sword, Gram. He will be limited in trophy profile though, being his....disturbed past. He should not be a clone of ike, he will represent competition though
gray fox(metal gear solid series): This character is an assist trophy in brawl his coolness has been seen, but we would all like to see him do more than run a fast slashing like metaknight.
more metroid characters: Dark samus, maybe characters from hunters etc...
characters I would NOT like to see
Naruto: I should not, and WILL not say anything about this. Believe it
Characters from marvel: They already have a game where many of them cross over.
NinjaFoxX
Banned via Warnings
i still want someone from a tales series to be in(except emil cuz he fails)
nintendo dosent own Chrono anymore do they?, likewise, hes awesome and i want him...
tails(ovbious)
Lyn from FE6(it was 6 right?)
some metroid rep.
kumatora
(char i want in but is impossible)
Marisa from Touhou.....Master Spark>Aura all day.
and bring back every map in smash evar!
nintendo dosent own Chrono anymore do they?, likewise, hes awesome and i want him...
tails(ovbious)
Lyn from FE6(it was 6 right?)
some metroid rep.
kumatora
(char i want in but is impossible)
Marisa from Touhou.....Master Spark>Aura all day.
and bring back every map in smash evar!
Dracospawn
Smash Journeyman
Bring back every map in smash? BEST IDEA, EVER!!!!!!
ShinoandtheBallonFighter
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Oct 28, 2007
- Messages
- 625
Lyn is from FE7, FE6 is Roy's game.
Pieman0920
Smash Master
Actually we have had dead series entered in, and we have had series that used to get new installments, but now do not. For instance, the G&W had his last game back in 02, though most people forget that one. Even that though isn't quite as profundly dead as the Mother series. In any case, outside of G&W, Mother, and the other retro series out there, no other series, including Kirby since that did get a new game after Brawl can be counted as dead.
As for the lack of precidence, it much more logical to say that a series that does not generate anything new will not get anything new. In fact that smart money says that if anything from the Mother series gets covered at all, it will be Mother 1. (When its not recent, it seems Sakurai has a thing about going back to games from the begining, instead of games in the middle. That combined with the fact that the original game wasn't covered at all in the Smash series means it is the most logical to go for. Still that doesn't really suggest a new character, though it could mean a cameo from Ninten)
Did I say overkill? Sorry if I did, since that's not the word I was looking for. I was trying to say that Lucas pushed it. Its a bit more representation than Mother deserves, but its not too much. I tried to make sure I didn't say something to that extent, but sorry if I did there somewhere.
No, the original game tells its story. Smash is a crossover game. It doesn't focus on any other game's storyline to any real degree. This is what people don't understand when they say we need more villains, because its not about the villains. About the crossover. Refferences to the story of the original games are not needed outside of just added fluff.
I'm not denying they stand out in the plot, but that doesn't give them a ticket in, especially if their series is a wreck. And the only great things its done, much of which you noted before, is expand the brand and given it more fans. That could happen with Star Fox, DK, or F-Zero, but it can't happen with Mother, which has ended. Cripes, most people can't even get the old games anymore unless they are stealing them. You're right that obscure refferences can be helpful, but you're ignoring the fact that this does not apply to Mother.
That's how the first Smash sold itself. It was a unremarkable semi-fighting game before that would probably be as obscure as Mother is now, but since it used Nintendo characters, its became what it is today. Smash's gameplay wasn't the selling point, it was its staying power. Its still Smash's main selling point even with Brawl. When you have discussions about what is going to happen with the next Smash, everything revolves around characters, and this thread should be a very clear reminder to that.
Mother didn't start Pokemon. Ape and HAL were developers in the Mother and Pokemon series, so of course influences would occur because of that. That's not a merit on Mother's behalf, but rather Ape and HAL. Marth and Roy did introduce people to FE, but what are Porky and the Masked Man going to do for people huh? We already have Ness and Lucas, and it doesn't matter anymore if more people are introduced, since there won't be another game. You're saying all these things that can happen because of other games doing this, but you're not saying what Porky and the MM would do.
And thus we shouldn't be focusing on games that have already had representation well enough. Both Porky and the MM's games are represented, so if you want someone obscure you would better off with going with a new game to expand that game's fanbase.
It is expanding for the sake of expanding though because the story isn't a reason more than their looks. Its disregarding fans and the effects in sake of just bringing in some type of balance you think is happening because of the increase in characters. Thus you really are just increaseing the characters for the sake of increaseing the characters, but you're just choosing them based on priority in the series. That doesn't change the fact that they are only for the sake of expansion though, since they are not demanded by fans, and they won't expand the fanbase of the series either. You have a reason for picking these characters, but that doesn't change the other problems.
All of that is just so that the series get more characters though instead of paying attention to what fans want or what would help the series outside of Smash. Now in truth some of those characters are popular and would help promote things, but that doesn't apply to Mother where they aren't popular and there is nothing to promote.
Again, these positive effects can't apply to the Mother characters now, just like they don't really apply to the Ice Climbers. (Don't know about Pit there though...)Infact, to be quite honest, most characters in Smash got a rather big popularity boost from it rather than the contrary along with being more Posistive with obscure characters.
You don't need to be in a Smash 4 thread though to notice that people know that. Its very common knowledge. Like...extremely common knowledge. That's why you won't see many people talking about it. Its like a given.
NinjaFoxX
Banned via Warnings
this thread is at like 723 pages lol pretty much everything has been talked about so were all going to be talking in circles until an announcement of SSB4 come along(see this thread in like 7 more years lol....page 9001,9002....)
I will keep saying this as many times as I have to:
Lucas is not overkill because he's an important and non-filler character to his series: You're looking at pretty numbers too much and worried about keeping limits.
As I've stated: Think from a developers point of view for 5 seconds at least.
"So...What about Lucas?"
"HIS SERIES DOESN'T HAVE ENOUGH GAMES DESPITE HIM BEING AN IMPORTANT AND NON FILLER ADDITION TO IT. MOAR POPULARITY NOW."
Now then, where was I?
Attention to what fans want? fyi, If you look at the internet, people seem to be going far obscure into rosters, and for the most part, a lot of people have even done the completion of series. As for people outside of Smash, there's no accurate way to determine what they want asides from some cases (...Sonic) As for gathering people into smash, If they weren't gathered so much as by characters, then It's for sure the rest of the game, which a lot of the game hasn't quite kept up with other new games in some features/areas.
The only way to truly get a general gist of what people want is to host a gigantic poll outside of the internet, and even then that has forgery. Sure, Mario may have more sales, but that doesn't mean people want *Insert every mario character here*
And furthermore, the point is that Pokey and Claus ARE Next in line to the Mother series. You're saying more shouldn't be taken from the line, I'm not. This is another "My Series > Your Series" Debate, which honestly, Sakurai has debunked this on multiple occasions. And as stated, the roster will just keep going into further amounts with supporting characters. There is nothing stopping that and nothing saying no currently.
Thus, the only thing logical to stop that is what Sakurai considers of "Dead" Series, or moreso, If Sakurai considers the series moreso similar to Evolving than Static. Until I see some mystical quotes about "Dead" Series that's actually a fact, then nope. It's pretty 50/50 as told.
mystery_dungeon
Smash Journeyman
If the next adventure mode is to have a story, how about the main enemies be the neglated characters throughout Nintendo history, angry that they had no spotlight after all these years. The characters can range from having only one or two games in the past or were from bigger series but with only one or two appearances throughout. Characters such as Wart, Ninten (jealous that Ness got in Smash Bros and not him), Balloon Fighter, Doshin the Giant, Kabula (it took it until Kirby Superstar Ultra to make a comeback), etc.
I only thought of this because characters like the above aren't well known
I only thought of this because characters like the above aren't well known
ShinoandtheBallonFighter
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Oct 28, 2007
- Messages
- 625
I more or less agree with Pieman. Lucas was sort of unessecary because the series was not going anywhere, very few knew who he was (I know I didn't, I know more Nintendo than the average) and your claiming him to be important to the series and while he is an important character to Mother, Mother isn't an important series (thought I doubt I'll convince you of this.)
ScoobyCafe
Smash Journeyman
Gonna have to step in a little, Koops.
If the series could contain a amount of characters, then golly, give it the character. In my opinion, Mother is three-quarters full--it could hold another, hopefully Ninten or Pokey. Even you are cognizant of that to an extent, the latter part of your second paragraph suggests as much.
I hope you have reasonably justifications for believing that, 'cause that's a pretty dumb thing to say, in my eyes.
But about Smash selling because of the characters, you're right for the most part. So why are you stamping "No" on characters who some may recognize and say "Oh snap, Pokey is playable!? I will buy 2 copies of SSB4," because you have some fallacy about a series I believe you have little knowledge of?
You don't believe Pokey has to promote something in order to be playable, so don't kid yourself. But about him not being popular, I'd like to know how you arrived to that conclusion. He's as recognizable as Ness and Lucas.
You're still saying that. I also like how you're using your personal views to rationale what you apparently think is objective truth. Protip: Not to sound rude, but you should probably keep your subjective statements in check.
If the series could contain a amount of characters, then golly, give it the character. In my opinion, Mother is three-quarters full--it could hold another, hopefully Ninten or Pokey. Even you are cognizant of that to an extent, the latter part of your second paragraph suggests as much.
The hell?
I hope you have reasonably justifications for believing that, 'cause that's a pretty dumb thing to say, in my eyes.
"I talk in absolutes, therefore am correct," is what I'm getting from that bold part, there. SSB is a great game, and is considered to be the game that revitalized what used to be a run-of-the-mill genre.
But about Smash selling because of the characters, you're right for the most part. So why are you stamping "No" on characters who some may recognize and say "Oh snap, Pokey is playable!? I will buy 2 copies of SSB4," because you have some fallacy about a series I believe you have little knowledge of?
Uh, provide a different experience for the player other than what Ness and Lucas can provide, much like Falco or Wolf?
Yeah, Kirby is pretty much good as far as representation is considered. Mother? Nah, Ninten or Pokey could be added.
I seriously question how much you know about Mother.
You don't believe Pokey has to promote something in order to be playable, so don't kid yourself. But about him not being popular, I'd like to know how you arrived to that conclusion. He's as recognizable as Ness and Lucas.
Why, because the series isn't ongoing? You believe Sakurai pays much attention to whether or not a series is active? If yes, then I sure hope you can point to some sort of proof of that.
He's an important and non filler addition of the Mother series. If we go by what most people know in general, then that actually takes away a lot more ideas than people think it does. The series is lesser than other franchises? Sure, but a lot of others are as well. As series are seen as "Complete" To developers, like the "Big Three" Or Kirby, then why not go around and spread the supporting characters to others? Because of some random number restraints people are making?
There's no reason not to. Not knowing who he was was just general not knowing about said series. Popularity creates boring rosters.
edit:
Horah for you and Kuma. Now I'm just waiting for Toise, FMOI, and SmashChu and this will be a full all outGonna have to step in a little, Koops.
As for ninten, I must admit, Mother 1 does deserve some love. Even If It was my least favorite of the Three, Ninten is a great Alt Costume idea for people who want to feel more like they're playing as him. A stage mixing the final boss places of the three would for sure be cool. Teddy could make a good AT.
ShinoandtheBallonFighter
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Oct 28, 2007
- Messages
- 625
Most series are incomplete, and Mother shouldn't be at the top of the list in fixing that.He's an important and non filler addition of the Mother series. If we go by what most people know in general, then that actually takes away a lot more ideas than people think it does. The series is lesser than other franchises? Sure, but a lot of others are as well. As series are seen as "Complete" To developers, like the "Big Three" Or Kirby, then why not go around and spread the supporting characters to others? Because of some random number restraints people are making?
There's no reason not to. Not knowing who he was was just general not knowing about said series. Popularity creates boring rosters.
edit:
Horah for you and Kuma. Now I'm just waiting for Toise, FMOI, and SmashChu and this will be a full all outbrawlMother fest.
As for ninten, I must admit, Mother 1 does deserve some love. Even If It was my least favorite of the Three, Ninten is a great Alt Costume idea for people who want to feel more like they're playing as him. A stage mixing the final boss places of the three would for sure be cool. Teddy could make a good AT.
complete" is another hing that is debatable.
Big-Cat
Challenge accepted.
FMOI, who I think is awesome and whatnot, is not necessary for a cluster*bleep* debate. Toise and Chu pretty much make the stuff hit the fan and it goes on for days.Horah for you and Kuma. Now I'm just waiting for Toise, FMOI, and SmashChu and this will be a full all outbrawlMother fest.
As for ninten, I must admit, Mother 1 does deserve some love. Even If It was my least favorite of the Three, Ninten is a great Alt Costume idea for people who want to feel more like they're playing as him. A stage mixing the final boss places of the three would for sure be cool. Teddy could make a good AT.
For MOTHER 1, some love would be great. I'd love it if we had a stage for each game. Give MOTHER 1 Paradise Line(Ridin' on the Paradise Line!), going through all the towns like Mother's Day, Youngtown, the Zoo, etc. and maybe include Magicant as part of the stage. MOTHER 2 is fine as it is, but Saturn Valley would be nice. For MOTHER 3, I didn't like NPC all that much. Maybe Tazmilly Village or something.
Above all else, the MOTHER 1 soundtrack music MUST be in the next game, even Eight Melodies.
And nobody is saying it shouldn't. It's not like we can't attempt to complete multiple series at the same time. We don't have any "True" List to follow in lists of what should be at the "Top", just what we think/want. That's like saying "Falco shouldn't be at the top of the list, Diddy Should've in Melee" Granted Melee was rushed, but point made.
Of course, Mother shouldn't be the exact first priority/top of the pole, I agree there. Moreso the series who are close to completion (Hey StarFox) And the series who got an ignored amount of Focus in Brawl should. The rest after that is really up in the air, because completion is pretty debateable unless It's a series like StarFox or Kirby.
edit:
He's not necessary, but It'll help the whole "Go on for days" Thing. I agree Chu and Toise do a better job at keeping these discussions on. Come on!
As for Mother, I would personally think Magicant (Mother 1/2) And Mt.Itoi/Cave of the Past/100 floors (Mother 1/2/3) would work well along with past stages, but Paradise Line could be interesting as well. I'd really however like Excess Express more personally. Now that is a train that had a lot of life.
Agreed. I'm still shocked that Pokey Means Business is missing yet we have the place where the Climax of the plot is.
ScoobyCafe
Smash Journeyman
I'm still holding out for Ninten to be re-designed so he could differentiate himself from Ness. But I suppose I could settle for an alt (not really, lol).
Have to say, though, Mt. Itoi would be a pretty ballin' stage--with the underwater base and all. Paradise Line would be amazing, as well. Teddy would be cool, but EVE would be fantastic as an AT. <3
And the OST, man, Poltergeist is still very [insert overly used word] to this day. So good.
An alt would be fine, It'd at least make the character feel more like the character + Itoi even said they're the same person. If we get Pokey instead with a Ninten alt, It's a 4 > 3, which is for sure better as long as Mother 1 gets some love.
I've posted specifics on the Stage Discussion group taking Gamenerd's idea and making Mt.Itoi idea pretty indepth. I can go into details If you want. The Underwater base can even add more to it. How did I forget that song? Never knew the actual name. I need to take some time and listen to Mother 1's OST a bit.
ScoobyCafe
Smash Journeyman
Itoi didn't say that completely out-right, to my knowledge. He was being ambiguous when he said it. I'd have to see exactly what he said to be 100% sure, though. And I honestly would mind if Ninten was an alt., but I guess I would get over it, considering what you said.
But yeah, I'd love to see what you have in mind for Mt. Itoi. I have a few ideas myself, so seeing your own ideas should be a interesting read.
But yeah, I'd love to see what you have in mind for Mt. Itoi. I have a few ideas myself, so seeing your own ideas should be a interesting read.
n88
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Oct 10, 2008
- Messages
- 1,542
@Scooby
I think he said that he designed Ness so that the player could view Ninten and Ness as the same character, or something along those lines.
Assist Trophy list, anyone?
I think he said that he designed Ness so that the player could view Ninten and Ness as the same character, or something along those lines.
Assist Trophy list, anyone?
- Waluigi
- Rosalina
- King Boo
- Funky Kong
- Kamek
- Kat & Ana
- Tingle
- Midna
- Dark Samus
- Metroid
- Knuckle Joe
- Louie
- Krystal
- Andross
- Jody Summer
- Lyn
- Black Knight
- Jeff
- Jil Dozer
- Chibi-Robo
- Barbara
- Infantry & Tanks
- Devil
- Ray Mk III
- Lip
- Saki
- Glass Joe
- Doc Louis
- Mr. Resetti
- Tom Nook
Yeah: I mean honestly, I may never have Masked Man playable, but I at least have his Alternative Costume in Kid form, which is already great. As for Mt. Itoi
First Phase - Basically, you start out right on the Mountain. It could have you go up on a platform starting from the sea base. Eventually, Giygas's Ship will pick you up.
Second Phase - Now we're on Giygas's ship, of course things get topsy turvy, and enemies will occasionally come up along with it doing one of those stops like on an Air Plane, so It's not "LOL HALBERD CLONE" As it moreso moves more than other flying vechiles
Third Phase - Plane crashes, leaving you in the Final Battle scene of Mother 2. I have a friend who made a stage with just this and made it very appealing. It'll have Devil's Machine but moreso reflecting on your attack ins however being able to "Break it" Or "Turn it on"
Fourth Phase - Time will fly by leaving a time warp, similar to what Pokey used to get to Mother 3. Here you'll fight at the final fight scene of Mother 3, with the Needle right in front and one of the sides being walk-off (Or both or none. whatever) If the Needle is somehow pulled (Similar to the Chimera thing, haven't developed this yet) The stage will go back to the First Phase.
Big-Cat
Challenge accepted.
Aside from the ones in bold, I'm fine with it. I'm aware, though, that Rosalina would make a nice AT, but I can see her being playable.
ShinoandtheBallonFighter
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Oct 28, 2007
- Messages
- 625
What I'm saying is, assuming we get a resonable amount of newcomers, not counting new series, we sjould complete more weighted series. DK (With Dixie and Rool), Starfox (if you count Krystal
), Poke/Fire Emblem (...You know), F-Zero (Potentially, agreed with Pieman if it's dead, nothing new) should all be completed before Mother. 5 newcomers for completion, around 5 newcomers from new series, Mother doesn't rank all that well, maybe if we get 11+ and there are no new existing franchises, Mother could get the bone thrown you want them to
ScoobyCafe
Smash Journeyman
Blue: Could be an alternate costume
Red: Could be a playable character
Yellow: Could be a story mode boss
Okay list, overall. Glass Joe would be absolutely hilarious.
Sounds good.
Sorta similar to what I have in mind, actually, but yours is probably better. Bascially, (1) my idea starts off with everyone on a platform or plot of land atop the water. It'll get sucked through a cyclone, (2) trasnporting everyone into the underwater base. Later, (3) you'll teleport to the peak of Mt. Itoi leading to the cave. (5) Giegue's ship will rise in the background, and beam you into the ship. After that, (6) you'll transport back to the platform. Wash, rinse, repeat.
Had something awesome for a S&P stage, but that's another topic altogether.
Pieman0920
Smash Master
Sorry Scooby, I'm kind of sick of this whole debate, so I'm not going to really go into it. Koopa, if there's something you really want to say from his post, then bring it over to your own, because if I start reading it, I'll be pretty much compelled to reply, and I don't like doing so with two people at once.
And this isn't a My Series>Your series thing because I'm not compairing Mother to any other series here. I'm stating what Mother's situation is right now and how it won't get any new games or fans in the coming years (Well at least fans who will actually pay for the game) Thus it makes no sense to use another character because of the reasons YOU stated about obscure characters. You keep on not addressing this, but I agree that obscure characters can be good inclusions because of how they introduce fans to different games. Now the problem with Porky and the MM are that they don't do this. Ness and Lucas have their games covered, so already do the generating interest part. Given that the series almost certain won't get a new game, there's no point in adding them as ways of expanding the audiance. Also given the fact that they are obscure, and do not have many fans to speak of, there's no reason they should get in due to popularity. Your only justification here is that they bring some type of balance to the Mother series, as if that's something Sakurai is going for. In the end though, that simply translates out to expanding just because you think the series should expand, which you keep on ignoring here. Adding characters for a sake of finishing up a story IS adding characters just to make the series bigger if there is no other reason for the character's inclusion, and I'm not sure if you understand that or are just ignoring it.
....Wait, were you reading my post there? I said he wasn't overkill. Lucas is pushing it in my eyes, but by no means is he a bad inclusion. He's the star of Mother 3 and thus is the representation of it. Given that the series had gotten a new game so recently, it makes sense that he was included. In my mind, the Mother series is a bit too small to have another character, but its not a real problem because there's a actual point to it. Its just that for Porky and the MM its not the same case.
Technically Sakurai does have something akin to that, but we just don't know the real answers. I suppose the list could change a few things about my perceptions of who was likely if we actually knew the results, but that's simply not the case. In any case as I've said before, more apperances of a character generally translated out to a character being more popular, and thus that's a fairly good meassure of things. Now for certain series this is very difficult given the story structures that certain games are given, but things do slip through.
(Porky is next in line. Claus isn't. There's no real point for a second villain if you really go by your balancing...but wait again that's a different debate.)
And this isn't a My Series>Your series thing because I'm not compairing Mother to any other series here. I'm stating what Mother's situation is right now and how it won't get any new games or fans in the coming years (Well at least fans who will actually pay for the game) Thus it makes no sense to use another character because of the reasons YOU stated about obscure characters. You keep on not addressing this, but I agree that obscure characters can be good inclusions because of how they introduce fans to different games. Now the problem with Porky and the MM are that they don't do this. Ness and Lucas have their games covered, so already do the generating interest part. Given that the series almost certain won't get a new game, there's no point in adding them as ways of expanding the audiance. Also given the fact that they are obscure, and do not have many fans to speak of, there's no reason they should get in due to popularity. Your only justification here is that they bring some type of balance to the Mother series, as if that's something Sakurai is going for. In the end though, that simply translates out to expanding just because you think the series should expand, which you keep on ignoring here. Adding characters for a sake of finishing up a story IS adding characters just to make the series bigger if there is no other reason for the character's inclusion, and I'm not sure if you understand that or are just ignoring it.
Its really not a issue of Sakurai thinking if its a dead series or not, because it really is dead. There are some series such as F-Zero who have not gotten a new game this generation, and can be viewed as dead because there are no plans in the future, but those don't count as dead because they have not been stated by their directors as something that has completely been ended. The Mother series has, and thus will just become more and more of a retro game. (And if that's the case, then any representation at all will be around Mother 1, rather than 2 or 3. )
We don't know. The only time Sakurai has really "Aked" To these are on two occasions:
1)Adding the supporting characters people want/that are more popular usually first - Bowser gets in before D3. D3 Gets in before Ridley, and the line goes on.
2)Sonic. Do I need to say more?
And just because a character appears multiple times doesn't quite mean an audience likes him. It could also mean they just don't care.
And that is all I need to make a good reply to this. Anyhow, wrong and wrong. Lucas is a supporting character that very well was worthy to be in and is a huge part of Mother. The series may not be the "BIGGEST" Or "Highest Level Standards" To you but in Sakurai's eyes, he sees Lucas as an important character. From what we know, he very well views Masked Man and Pokey as important. New Pork City, the biggest spoiler in the game, got in. Of all the stages he could've picked.
Now here's what you don't get: Sakurai doesn't account series for there current status, and until you have proof of it so, it doesn't. However, I do have proof:
Look, It's similar to even representation of important characters. God forbid that.
Bigger series getting complete, smaller series like StarFox making there way through, another addition in series.
Smaller series like Kirby, Mother, DK, and Fox got the bone to them regardless of there current statuses. Some series like F-Zero and Metroid (...Well It got ZSS) got a bit of the shaft temporarily, but whatever. Digging deeper in supporting characters. Nothing bad about that.
Oh, here's the important fact of that: Sales keep going up. Complaints weren't rampant more on Characters being obscure. Complaints were rampant for...Just about everything else. Lack of Past Stages, Lack of care in removed veterans, Lack of an online that can hold itself up, Lack of an exciting Stage Builder or Story...Must I go on?
Now then, with this all being said, why would this change with Characters? Finishing up what story they represent is what seems to be going on here. All you're doing is matching up these newcomers with recent games, which doesn't work because this is our first time dealing with an installed Dead Franchise.
See - You're talking in absolutes like Sakurai has to follow your idea of thinking in thinking they're filler because they're not popular, which he surely doesn't. He seems to be viewing them on how much weight they hold to there series, which is also fine.
And there is nothing out there saying It's wrong. It's making sure a series goes well when given love in Smash.
Think of it this way - You start playing Melee. You pick Roy. Roy is your main. You decide to play Fire Emblem: Shadow Dragon. You only find Marth and a bunch of supporting characters in there. You're completely lost.
However, look at what a "Completed" Series has done:
You start playing Brawl. You pick up King D3. King Dedede is your main. You decide to play A Kirby's Dream Land game or Air Ride, finding out all the "Main" Characters are in it.
Why is this such a wrong way of viewing things? You're saying we should mis-represent series on purpose just because they aren't as big? This is not a smash congress. My past info has clearly shown that It IS Heading in that direction. You're on a boat with yourself apparently thinking
1) "It should be changed" Which is one of the least things wrong with Smash now.
2) "Supporting characters should stop because the series is dead" Which also has no logic AND Proof over it since we have never been in this situation.
And 3) "It's shoeing in a character because they aren't recognizeable to Nintendo in general" Annnnnnd...Nope. Not seeing anything in this where he has to complete that.
Finally:
"Hi, my name is Pieman. I use generalizations to generalize characters instead of actually playing the games themselves. Because Pokey is in Mother 3 as well, I have made the assumption that we don't need him based on what game he originates from rather than his actual character."ToiseOfChoice said:
Also we have Meta-Knight too. Mind explaining that without saying "BIGGAR SERIES"?
Pieman0920
Smash Master
I'm going to try something here. I'm going to post one thing here and I want to see if you can get it Koopa. I don't know if its all this text, but you seem to be skipping over this.
YOU'RE making your decision based around categories. You're saying we need this characters because they are important to this series, not because people want them, and not because they can make people like the series more. You're saying that being a villain in said series is all the justification that is needed to be a new character. You're saying that we need more villains just because they are villains, though you're wording it in a different way. You're saying one thing I agree with, but pushing characters who don't line up with what you're saying.
YOU'RE making your decision based around categories. You're saying we need this characters because they are important to this series, not because people want them, and not because they can make people like the series more. You're saying that being a villain in said series is all the justification that is needed to be a new character. You're saying that we need more villains just because they are villains, though you're wording it in a different way. You're saying one thing I agree with, but pushing characters who don't line up with what you're saying.
-"Importance stuff" Wrong. I'm going by the direction that seems to be going on here with supporting characters as shown.
-"Because People Want Them" Is something we don't really know much well outside of the internet since It's all over the place. BTW, Claus is a wanted suggestion.
-"They can't make people like the series more" Bringing in characters with new attributes and uniqueness compared to the Previous ones like Past supporting characters have done won't do anything to people's opinions? Uh, yes they can make people like it/change opinions.
And I'm not worried on categories here. It's giving each installed series there important characters; Which is what keeps going on here and has no facts in disapproval of it. Not "LOL YOU DESERVE MORE CHARACTERS" Which is showing to be more of a factor on who gets what first. Mario and LoZ gets complete before Kirby and others, Kirby gets complete before Metroid and Star Fox, and so on.
Pieman0920
Smash Master
That's still generalizing things by a category instead of the characters themselves. By this logic, we will get Mr. Sandman and Doc Louis after we get Little Mac because they are important to their series, even if they aren't characters who are actually wanted.
We can tell because of the sales of the series. The sales of the series indicate how sucessful the story and characters are, and increased sales and reapperances show who is popular. Now while Mother may not be a good series to show this with due to its few games, that hurts it int he end because less people actually know what the series is about. We don't have to get the poll results because of this because we know it has to be low.
Incredibly unlikely since the characters being introduced are even less important or relivant to the experience of the game, especially as they are not playable (okay, Claus is, but not really) In addition as I've said before, even if you do change someone's mind here, they are likely just going to steal the game. In regards to Mother 3 did you go about with importing it to show actual support, or did you just steal it like most people have had to do?
The dissproval of it that the supporting characters (bar Wolf there) are chosen because they are popular or can expand the series appeal. They don't fit in to your categories for important characters which disregard what people want or would want. And your idea of how it should expand with these lesser series is absolutley horrible because no one wants these guys. Its ignoring what people want in favor of some deranged sense of balance.
Edit: Pieman, everything from Cafe's post is at the bottom of this.
Pokey and Claus are important and do fall under that. Even shown by you saying "Next in line"
Which is why all this sales stuff ties in horridly when looking at all the series Smash has. Think outside the box.
As for my history with Mother, It actually doesn't come from Smash. As stated, the only series that I've ever been introduced to IN Smash is Fire Emblem.
But to Clarify: My dad has a friend who's son wanted to get FF7 and Super Mario 64 and some other games on his N64 and Playstation, so I got hand-me-downs. However he was a huge fan of RPG's, so I ended out with a lot of rare stuff (SMRPG, Chrono Trigger, Earthbound, FF "3", etc) However, I was young at the time and way less experienced with gaming, so I had to use the guide. When I was playing Smash with three of my friends, or just the one who actually owned a 64, they were surprised to find that I knew who Ness, Captain Falcon, and Samus were.
Time passed by, we moved, thus having my mom selling my SNES. This is near the beginning of the GC Era. I was pretty disappointed but I remembered the names of said RPG's. Thankfully, one of my friends had a used SNES, So I finished Earthbound on there from borrowing. Eventually finished on "Stolen" Copy as well, but I deleted that)
Time passes by again, I find out that Mother 3 is being continued. One of my other friends whom I got into Smash has his sister knowing Japanese, so they got the game imported for me. I of course traded it back to them, but It was hard to get import costs when I already played it.
I did end up however having to "Steal" Mother 1, but I did try very hard to find a reasonable price copy + Remember, those are all in Japanese. It can ruin the experience a bit when you're stuck having to search the internet or so every hour.
"ignoring what people want" Uh no. We never said we're denying other important characters here. People are fine with the roster getting more obscure in the cast of supporting characters to cover things. Sales and other info I've shown DOES Show that.
It's not a "Deranged sense of balance" It's "I don't like it totally because I think It would be presented horribly" When supporting characters have been introduced very well with the other "MOAR POPULAR AND IMPORTANT" Ones
like Lucas and Wolf.
Cafe/Pieman stuff: (TORTURE!)
If the series could contain a amount of characters, then golly, give it the character. In my opinion, Mother is three-quarters full--it could hold another, hopefully Ninten or Pokey. Even you are cognizant of that to an extent, the latter part of your second paragraph suggests as much.
I hope you have reasonably justifications for believing that, 'cause that's a pretty dumb thing to say, in my eyes.
But about Smash selling because of the characters, you're right for the most part. So why are you stamping "No" on characters who some may recognize and say "Oh snap, Pokey is playable!? I will buy 2 copies of SSB4," because you have some fallacy about a series I believe you have little knowledge of?
But they aren't that standout-ish as opposed to the other boxers. It's like the Mother party or the Metroid hunters.
Pokey and Claus are important and do fall under that. Even shown by you saying "Next in line"
But that doesn't tell what fans want for a smash game
Which is why all this sales stuff ties in horridly when looking at all the series Smash has. Think outside the box.
Incredibly unlikely? That's like saying "Hey, K. Rool won't do anything. We have DK" When introducing a unique playstyle and whatnot, people get interested possibly more. When they see someone like Claus maybe, that will cause them to do some research and look into it.
As for my history with Mother, It actually doesn't come from Smash. As stated, the only series that I've ever been introduced to IN Smash is Fire Emblem.
But to Clarify: My dad has a friend who's son wanted to get FF7 and Super Mario 64 and some other games on his N64 and Playstation, so I got hand-me-downs. However he was a huge fan of RPG's, so I ended out with a lot of rare stuff (SMRPG, Chrono Trigger, Earthbound, FF "3", etc) However, I was young at the time and way less experienced with gaming, so I had to use the guide. When I was playing Smash with three of my friends, or just the one who actually owned a 64, they were surprised to find that I knew who Ness, Captain Falcon, and Samus were.
Time passed by, we moved, thus having my mom selling my SNES. This is near the beginning of the GC Era. I was pretty disappointed but I remembered the names of said RPG's. Thankfully, one of my friends had a used SNES, So I finished Earthbound on there from borrowing. Eventually finished on "Stolen" Copy as well, but I deleted that)
Time passes by again, I find out that Mother 3 is being continued. One of my other friends whom I got into Smash has his sister knowing Japanese, so they got the game imported for me. I of course traded it back to them, but It was hard to get import costs when I already played it.
I did end up however having to "Steal" Mother 1, but I did try very hard to find a reasonable price copy + Remember, those are all in Japanese. It can ruin the experience a bit when you're stuck having to search the internet or so every hour.
You're making up Critera's too when we don't know exactly why they're chosen. Series are getting all there important characters by the minute as shown.
"Because no one wants these" And that brings me to my point of outside the internet.
"ignoring what people want" Uh no. We never said we're denying other important characters here. People are fine with the roster getting more obscure in the cast of supporting characters to cover things. Sales and other info I've shown DOES Show that.
It's not a "Deranged sense of balance" It's "I don't like it totally because I think It would be presented horribly" When supporting characters have been introduced very well with the other "MOAR POPULAR AND IMPORTANT" Ones
like Lucas and Wolf.
Cafe/Pieman stuff: (TORTURE!)
You're still saying that. I also like how you're using your personal views to rationale what you apparently think is objective truth. Protip: Not to sound rude, but you should probably keep your subjective statements in check.
If the series could contain a amount of characters, then golly, give it the character. In my opinion, Mother is three-quarters full--it could hold another, hopefully Ninten or Pokey. Even you are cognizant of that to an extent, the latter part of your second paragraph suggests as much.
The hell?
I hope you have reasonably justifications for believing that, 'cause that's a pretty dumb thing to say, in my eyes.
"I talk in absolutes, therefore am correct," is what I'm getting from that bold part, there. SSB is a great game, and is considered to be the game that revitalized what used to be a run-of-the-mill genre.
But about Smash selling because of the characters, you're right for the most part. So why are you stamping "No" on characters who some may recognize and say "Oh snap, Pokey is playable!? I will buy 2 copies of SSB4," because you have some fallacy about a series I believe you have little knowledge of?
Uh, provide a different experience for the player other than what Ness and Lucas can provide, much like Falco or Wolf?
Yeah, Kirby is pretty much good as far as representation is considered. Mother? Nah, Ninten or Pokey could be added.
You don't believe Pokey has to promote something in order to be playable, so don't kid yourself. But about him not being popular, I'd like to know how you arrived to that conclusion. He's as recognizable as Ness and Lucas.
Why, because the series isn't ongoing? You believe Sakurai pays much attention to whether or not a series is active? If yes, then I sure hope you can point to some sort of proof of that.
Pieman0920
Smash Master
It was more that you pick out anything in particular that you wanted to say from what Cafe said, because if you just copy and paste all of his post, then I'm basically just arguing with him and you at the same time. If you have something you agree with, say it yourself, though you could end it by saying Scooby said it first. =/
Doc Louis is Mac's constant companion and the only one Mac has got there. Its not like a large pary that has to be fully represented to have any form of balance. Sandman is a recurring "bad guy" who was the almost final boss of the latest game. By the logic you're throwing around, these two will have to get in no matter what because they are important to the series and would bring a sense of "balance" to it.
Again, I'll say Porky is next in line, but not Claus. But as I've been going on, being next in line doesn't mean that you should get into the next Smash. The Baby Bros are pretty much next in line for the Yoshi series, but they shouldn't get in.
Sure it does. Series that sell more and have more fans make up a greater majority of the Smash fans. There are more Mario fans in outside of, and inside of Smash. You find more people wanting new Zelda, Pokemon, and other larger series characters than you do smaller ones, because these series have more fans. Now as I've said, their demands aren't the only ones fulfilled,
Sales is what ties into everything the most. There are outliers, but nothing big. Its not the only factor, but you're being blind if you can't see its the biggest factor.
For the record, I think K.Rool is a horrible choice, but that doesn't change the fact that he can promote the brand since its expanding. In addition I can't ignore the large amount of people who really seem to want him in. The Mother characters don't have this type of demand, and any reserach into it will likely cause them stealing the game, so what would be the point of that?
Good for you, with the lack of stealing the third game. I didn't actually doubt you really played Earthbound, since you're clearly a large fan of it, and usually the biggers fans start off playing their series as a kid.
By the minute? Anyways, no they aren't. At least not how you're phrasing it. The important or popular characters overall (i.e. not bound by their series) are getting in. Characters who represent something new, be it a gameplay mechanic or a forgotten series are being placed in. What you're banking on here is that their status as the Mother villains (ie important) is what will automatically get them in despite no other character having shown to have done this with the possible outlier of Wolf (Whatever Sakurai's views on Star Fox are confound me, since the series did expand by a great deal since Melee, but if I am to understand things correctly, he didn't even play thos egames. In any case, Wolf's inclusion may just be that of the clones in Melee) Still one outlier and 34 that fit the trend doesn't make things better for your Mother characters. Just very unlikley.
As I've addressed before, the roster is getting more obscure, but the obscure characters being put in are those that are the most requested. The thing with the balance system which you're trying to propose is that it does not take into account characters who break your ideas of what is balanced and instead placing new characters in because of the roles they fill up in the story. Its the exact same as including a character because theya re a villain or because they are female, but just wording it around a bit differently. The thing is that it makes no sense in Smash 4 to give Mother a new character when other series are getting new games and other characters are getting more popular, and other series are starting to get their legs. By the time of Smash 4, there will certainly be enough new characters to fill the roster without having to resort to taking gernerally unknown ones from games that already have characters in Smash. Because of that, you'll likley be pushed off until Smash 5, and by that time even more time will have passed and more characters from the other series will have popped up (or preexisting characters will have gotten more importance) If the Mother series is to get any non-Mother 1 character its going to have to get a new game in there so that it actually has some spot light, otherwise it will keep on being pushed back again and again until there is really no point at all to adding anything.
You want specific tl;dr run of that post?
Stop talking in Absolutes. It doesn't make you anymore right than anyone else's opinion.
And
You have no proof that representation will stop because It's "Dead"
And
I doubt you know much about the series.
Makes more sense If you're comparing an installed series, which you do later in the post...
Why should the Baby Bros not get in? Variations? Because y'know, Paper Mario isn't the only choice (be noted TTYD is my favorite Gamecube Game)
Regardless, shouldn't =/= What Sakurai Thinks. + There's also Kamek.
Next in line doesn't make you a "Shoe-In" For the next smash, but It does help. It just depends on what Sakurai thinks on series that have the biggest priority, which you AND I don't have the answer too.
And just as an FYI, Masked Man is one of my favorite gaming characters of all time, duh. But just because Pokey and Masked Man are next in line on who has a chance at a mother slot doesn't mean I'll blindly ignore everything
Heck, I've even given the "Evolving" Theory a 50/50 shot at happening, where Sakurai thinks the series should be represented similar in sorts of Fire Emblem. Having It's protaginists and that's it.
No it doesn't.
Until you post something of Sakurai's wording that does, it doesn't. The pictures I posted up even show proof of this + The GDC And what he said there about Characters. I've been bringing up clearly factual evidence that you haven't denied, and yet, I have yet to see the magical word of "Sales" Come out of his mouth on characters.
"Lots of people want K. Rool" "THATS THE INTERNETS NOT SMASH FANBASE LOL"
Annnnnnd where was I? Also "Horrible Choice" Him? Now what are your "Great" Choices? I seriously wonder.
Automatically get them in? No. I never banked on that. If he doesn't consider the series as the "Evolving" Theory then yes, they certainly have a good chance of eventually making it in. Possibly sooner.
And nope, as I said, bigger series get complete by what we've seen. Smaller series like Kirby, DK, Mother, and Fox are getting the nod. There is nothing to suggest otherwise that this won't continue in general with series.
edit: And let me just note now that there is no priority on what the developers should work on with installed series asides from Fanmade Rules. Despite Fox getting some focus in Melee, he still got more, while say, F-Zero got a shaft.
ScoobyCafe
Smash Journeyman
Aww
Well I advise you and Koops to agree to disagree, then, 'cause neither of you are budging. You think Mother shouldn't--yet realize it could--get another character for [silly] reasons Koops nor myself agrees with, saying so-and-so doesn't apply to said characters.
Let me just say, though, that my reasons for wanting Pokey is because he can indeed add something to Smash Bros. that Ness nor Lucas can provide, and that he can indeed get into Smash Bros. because people are familiar with his character, thanks to Mother, as well as Smash Bros.
EDIT:
One more thing, about "Baby Bros shouldn't getting in," this is why we can never get anywhere in discussions, let alone engage in intelligent discussions. One where we're like "Hey, this character is great for Smash." "I dunno, he/she has some issues. "Gee, didn't think about that, but you might want to look at it this way." "Wow, I can definitely see where you're coming from."
Seriously, hop off your high horse. If you cannot even dignify the character with the least bit of plausibility, you should fall back and refrain yourself from saying anything else silly.
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