[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

[Sephiroths Masamune]

What do you guys (above) think of my Paper Mario Moveset?

Great move set I like it alot. it reminds me of my failure of a response to my Sephiroth move set.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Please explain why.

@lordvaati:

I would have to say that I'm curious as well. Please do elaborate.

 

[lordvaati]

Glass Joe seeks to win at least one more fight before his retirement, and goes to challenge Mario. but when he arrives at the end of the road, a Toad tells him that Mario left to another castle. enraged and eager to retire, Glass Joe prepares to fight Toad.

 

[Mario the Jumpman]

How about Little Mac vs Ganondorf?

 

[BG3]

Guys, I understand that marketing to the casual franchise is smart, but you don't have to destroy your hardcore franchise along with it. Also, if your library of games is just flooded with casual games(which happens to be true for the Wii) then that means that hardcore fans are being ignored to some extent. Even some of the previous hardcore contendors of Nintendo turned casual. Just look at Brawl.

 

[Big-Cat]

Guys, I understand that marketing to the casual franchise is smart, but you don't have to destroy your hardcore franchise along with it. Also, if your library of games is just flooded with casual games(which happens to be true for the Wii) then that means that hardcore fans are being ignored to some extent. Even some of the previous hardcore contendors of Nintendo turned casual. Just look at Brawl.

Actually, Melee's depth was a fluke. If I recall, Sakurai intended it to be more or less a party game way before the casual movement.

I hope they realize that a competitive environment that also allows you to go casual is the best way to go with this series.

 

[Neckbeard Torterra]

Actually, Melee's depth was a fluke. If I recall, Sakurai intended it to be more or less a party game way before the casual movement.

I hope they realize that a competitive environment that also allows you to go casual is the best way to go with this series.

i hope he knows that the ssb fanbase is 90% 'core gamer'

 

[BG3]

Actually, Melee's depth was a fluke. If I recall, Sakurai intended it to be more or less a party game way before the casual movement.

I hope they realize that a competitive environment that also allows you to go casual is the best way to go with this series.

I knew that Melee wasn't intended to be casual, but it did a good job of pleasing both sides of the fans. With Brawl, Sakurai just deliberately destroyed the competition in it, which was a big mistake IMO.

 

[Wizzerd]

Actually, Melee's depth was a fluke. If I recall, Sakurai intended it to be more or less a party game way before the casual movement.

So was Brawl's "shallowness", then. Anyway, what is this casual movement you speak of? Casuals have always, always been a part of gaming. There was never an influx of casuals into Smash either.

I hope they realize that a casual environment that also allows you to go competitive is the best way to go with this series.

Fixed. Some competitive players may be butthurt that you can no longer ride across the stage in a wave of drugs dash anymore, but not all competitive players prefer Melee anyway.

I knew that Melee wasn't intended to be casual, but it did a good job of pleasing both sides of the fans. With Brawl, Sakurai just deliberately destroyed the competition in it, which was a big mistake IMO.

No it didn't. Many casuals were discouraged by the existence of wavedashing and L-Cancelling, as it widened the skill gap too much. And Sakurai did not deliberately destroy competition. Tournaments still exist.

REVELATION TIME: I think Melee and Brawl are both great games. (Cue butthurt tourney players)

 

[BBQTV]

idont think they know the existence of wavedashing and L-Cancelling

 

[Big-Cat]

So was Brawl's "shallowness", then. Anyway, what is this casual movement you speak of? Casuals have always, always been a part of gaming. There was never an influx of casuals into Smash either.


Fixed. Some competitive players may be butthurt that you can no longer ride across the stage in a wave of drugs dash anymore, but not all competitive players prefer Melee anyway.


No it didn't. Many casuals were discouraged by the existence of wavedashing and L-Cancelling, as it widened the skill gap too much. And Sakurai did not deliberately destroy competition. Tournaments still exist.

REVELATION TIME: I think Melee and Brawl are both great games. (Cue butthurt tourney players)

The casual movement I speak of is the big increase of casual player games like Wii Sports.

Personally, I just want the competitive environment to have hitstun, better roster balance, advanced techniques not derived from glitches, and moves that can be canceled into each other (to expand combo options) at the very least.

I understand the whole turn-off with wavedashing, but from what I've read, L-Canceling wasn't a big deal. It seemed more like teching/ukemi than anything else. Anyway, if the next game goes competitive, they need to find a balance.

 

[Arcadenik]

KumaOso, when you said "better roster balance", what do you mean by that?

 

[n88]

I knew that Melee wasn't intended to be casual, but it did a good job of pleasing both sides of the fans. With Brawl, Sakurai just deliberately destroyed the competition in it, which was a big mistake IMO.

Brawl got nerfed in the physics because people complained that Melee was too fast. SSB4 will probably be faster than Brawl because people complain about Brawl being slow. Believe it or not, Sakurai does try to make people happy.

At any rate, Nintendo just made a mistake w/casualizing a lot of games that don't really appeal to casuals as much anyway. They just need to separate the casual from the hardcore a little more, and they'll be fine.

@Arcadenik
By better roster balance, I think he means nobody on Meta Knight's level.

 

[gantrain05]

melee wasn't exactly fast if you are playing it casually, it may even be slower than brawl so i don't know where u say people were complaining melee is too fast when the majority of gamers are casual players anyway.

 

[Big-Cat]

KumaOso, when you said "better roster balance", what do you mean by that?

Pretty much what n88 2004 said. To expand on this, I don't want characters to have too many good or bad matchups. Ideally, It'd like to see an even share of good, bad, and neutral matchups.

The fighter type system I proposed could help balance the roster if done right.

 

[DekuBoy]

Indeed.

Also .WC. I didn't mean to insult you, as I clearly said 'new people who can't spell'. Intelligent posters such as yourself are always welcome here.

 

[Paper Mario Master]

Sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.....................now what?

 

[Hero.]

Sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.....................now what?

We wait.




















We wait.

 

[n88]

How about some cameo discussion? I rarely see people talk about Trophies/Stickers in the next game.

I would like to see something like this for Trophies (Just did a few series where I kinda know what I'm talking about):

Super Mario Bros

(Various character/final smash/AT/Item trophies)
Petey Pirahna
Bowser Jr.
Toad
Rosalina
Paper Mario
Daisy
Birdo
Classic Wario
Koopa Troopa
Goomba
Blooper
Dry Bones
Wiggler
Pirahna Plant
Mario Kart

 

[mariorocks64]

I always wondered what it would be like to perfectly hack brawl and turn it into Smash 4.

because the hacks and progams made so far are
Brtsm
stage studio
texture hacks
Brawl+
BBrawl
PSA
model extractor

whats the next step? a way to change stage features. you could practically make SSB4.

anyway, the CPU needs better difficulty that suits casuals, 5 year olds, undecideds, and competitive and true gamers.

casuals/5 year olds
_________________
level 1-4. it would be extremely easy for them
even metaknight would go easy on them

undecided
_________
level 5
the characters are going to fight hard, but will show some weak points.

competitive/true gamers
______________________
level 6-10
the enemies become rough.
level 10 will be named "vicious" as the CPU will forever attack you no matter what. they are the ones who surpass everyone. I dare you to beat a level 10 metaknight. infact, even jigglypuff would have the chance to mop the floor with you.



online needs to be better. less lag, better waiting room. and a ranking system. also, include rank match. free match are the ones that can have taunt parties. and an online tournament will suit well. and stock battles must be included to with anyone.

team matches shouldn't require uniform for characters. they should be able to use any color.you don't have that in classic. oh, and team matches should be in tourney mode in vs mode.

event matches need to be better and more original.

more options should be added to special brawl.

 

[Pieman0920]

Isn't that essentially a combination of Brawl/Melee's trophies though?

I'm going to guess that the major problem with predicting trophies is that we'll probably never go back to how Melee was. What I mean by that is that back in Melee, mostly all of the trophies were made for Melee, even if the character/item/location in the trophy was actually not used as a character/enemy/background element/whatever in the actual game.

In Brawl though, a good 90% or so of trophies that weren't directly from Brawl's other modes were ripped straight from other games. Thus we didn't see some of the obscure refferences like we did in Melee's trophies, but rather just got things that happened inbetween Melee and Brawl. Its the reason why you don't see any Mother/Yoshi/Non FE9/10 trophies, since they only have sprites, and no actual models to rip from.

Thus if we get the same treatment that we did in Brawl, which is fairly likely, we'll get trophies from games that came out slightly before Brawl all the way to around the time SSB4 will be announced.

 

[Akuma145]

i think jack from madworld would be epic and travis touchdown from no more heroes would be great in the next installment!

Probably already in this thread but im not going through 1k + pages lol

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

Pretty much what n88 2004 said. To expand on this, I don't want characters to have too many good or bad matchups. Ideally, It'd like to see an even share of good, bad, and neutral matchups.

The fighter type system I proposed could help balance the roster if done right.

You might as well be asking for world peace. Even achieving Brawl's level of balance with around 50 characters will take considerably longer than the time spent on Brawl, even if you homogenize things a bit.


@n88: I'm a big trophy nut, so if every series had a massive number of trophies, I'd be really happy. There are 42 Kirby trophies in Brawl, that's enough to have every F-Zero GX character (minus Mr. Zero) and Blue Falcon. And was it really too much to expect an Ultimate Chimera trophy?


@Pieman: Out of fairness, they did have to spend a ton of time digging up old NES instruction manuals for stickers and whatnot. I'd imagine next time they'd be a little more prepared, especially when they've already got everything from Brawl.

 

[Wizzerd]

The casual movement I speak of is the big increase of casual player games like Wii Sports.

Personally, I just want the competitive environment to have hitstun, better roster balance, advanced techniques not derived from glitches, and moves that can be canceled into each other (to expand combo options) at the very least.

I understand the whole turn-off with wavedashing, but from what I've read, L-Canceling wasn't a big deal. It seemed more like teching/ukemi than anything else. Anyway, if the next game goes competitive, they need to find a balance.

Eh, fair enough. I'm totally fine with wavedashing/L-Cancelling/comboing existing, but it just bothers me when people say Melee physics are madatory, which they aren't. Character balance, however, is something I can totally agree on. Toise is right that it's difficult with lots of characters, but it wouldn't be too hard to make sure that if characters were measured against Brawl characters nobody would be above mid-high tiers and nobody lower than mid-low tiers (I hope I'm making sense here).

Talking about trophies? Why not talk about... Assist Trophies! We totally need a Cranky Kong AT as a Resetti clone (with different dialogue, obviously).

 

[Big-Cat]

You might as well be asking for world peace. Even achieving Brawl's level of balance with around 50 characters will take considerably longer than the time spent on Brawl, even if you homogenize things a bit.

It may or may not take as long. It may even be doable. It ultimately depends on how they do it. If I recall, Capcom had something like tournaments in development in order to balance the characters in Street Fighter IV. If they try that next time, it may be better balanced. Then again, does it really seem they've tried in the first place?

Toise is right that it's difficult with lots of characters, but it wouldn't be too hard to make sure that if characters were measured against Brawl characters nobody would be above mid-high tiers and nobody lower than mid-low tiers (I hope I'm making sense here).

Well, it's inevitable that tier lists will come about. There will be top, bottom, and everything between tiers.However, as I have said earlier, I don't want tiers to exist the way they do in Smash. Have you noticed that we have viable and non-viable characters in tournaments? I would like to see a bottom tier character be able to beat a top tier character because of skill and strategy such as not letting your weaknesses pop up too much and punishing the opponent.

 

[Paper Mario Master]

For trophies all the alt. costumes like classic Wario should get a trophy if you beat classic in that alt.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

What's wrong with regular trophies? I like those.


@Kuma: If you're big on heavy reading and haven't seen this already, take a gander. I'm about to pass out right now so I can't get in depth, but basically it's VERY time consuming. Sakurai would need to start now to achieve the balance people are hoping for.

 

[BG3]

Brawl got nerfed in the physics because people complained that Melee was too fast. SSB4 will probably be faster than Brawl because people complain about Brawl being slow. Believe it or not, Sakurai does try to make people happy.

At any rate, Nintendo just made a mistake w/casualizing a lot of games that don't really appeal to casuals as much anyway. They just need to separate the casual from the hardcore a little more, and they'll be fine.

@Arcadenik
By better roster balance, I think he means nobody on Meta Knight's level.

The first statement you just said is the exact reason why some smash fans became pissed. Little kids complained that they couldn't keep up with Melee, so Sakurai casualized the game, which is good, but not at the extent that Sakurai took it. It's like Chess. Now, chess is a game that requires deep thought and the use of your mind. Now say that groups of people started complaining on how it was too complicated for them to understand and required an easier version of it that was accessible for those people. Now all of a sudden, all the chess tournaments are now using this version of the game because more and more people will play it due to its ease of understanding, which in turn, adds more money in their pockets. If you were a dominant chess player, would you not be outraged at what had just happened to the classic game of thinking? People didn't understand the game, so it was made piss poor easy, which now means that next to no strategy is involved, turning it more or less into a childrens board game. To a dominant chess player, this would've been an outrage. The main chess players who compete in tournaments and play competitively had their game ruined to fit the needs of a larger audience of people.

This same situation can kind of be compared to Melee and Brawl. While my example was kind of illogical to happen in the real world, it still contains the same concept. Melee with items on was casual enough. He didn't have to butcher the whole engine along with it. By engine, I am referring to hitstun, sheildstun, no auto grab ledges, etc. I am not referring to wavedashing and the like. A casual player rarely notices certain things about the engine, if anything at all.
If the devs didn't half *** the character balance as well as add some of the competition elements that were present in Melee(again, not wavedashing), then both sides would truly be happy. That didn't seem to be the case with Brawl, he probably knew that competitive players would be angry at him for what he was doing to smash. LMAO, it kind of seems like he was trying to make them mad, because clearly, the intended audience for this game was for people who've never heard of smash bros. before.

You are right that Nintendo didn't need to casualize games that didn't even appeal much to casuals. This is one of my arguments supporting that Nintendo COMPLETELY shafted the hardcore Nintendo fans as well as the decent amount of competitive players it had.

If any of you cared enough to read this rant, well it's what I truly beleive. I really think that Nintendo is a completely changed company, which makes me as a previous Nintendo fan...kind of sad, really, LMAO.

 

[mariorocks64]

The first statement you just said is the exact reason why some smash fans became pissed. Little kids complained that they couldn't keep up with Melee, so Sakurai casualized the game, which is good, but not at the extent that Sakurai took it. Melee with items on was casual enough. He didn't have to butcher the whole engine along with it. By engine, I am referring to hitstun, sheildstun, no auto grab ledges, etc. I am not referring to wavedashing and the like. A casual player rarely notices certain things about the engine, if anything at all. If the devs didn't half *** the character balance as well as add some of the competition elements that were present in Melee(again, not wavedashing), then both sides would truly be happy. That didn't seem to be the case with Brawl, he probably knew that competitive players would be angry at him for what he was doing to smash. LMAO, it kind of seems like he was trying to make them mad, because clearly, the intended audience for this game was for people who've never heard of smash bros. before.

You are right that Nintendo didn't need to casualize games that didn't even appeal much to casuals. This is one of my arguments supporting that Nintendo COMPLETELY shafted the hardcore Nintendo fans as well as the decent amount of competitive players it had.

now I hate thos little kids! melee was fun for epic fights. so was brawl.

melees battle hard physics made fun fights
brawl's miracle survivor physics make fun fight
if these were combined into SSB4, it would be the best smash physics ever!

 

[BG3]

now I hate thos little kids! melee was fun for epic fights. so was brawl.

melees battle hard physics made fun fights
brawl's miracle survivor physics make fun fight
if these were combined into SSB4, it would be the best smash physics ever!

Maybe I went a bit out of line saying they were all little kids complaining, but nevertheless, that is the main audience enjoying brawl.

 

[Paper Mario Master]

A combo of Melee and Brawl For the Win, it would be Epic and Awesome

EDIT:Speaking of Epic and Awesome here's an awesome piano version of Mute City/Big Blue.....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSLsLamtguE

 

[BG3]

A combo of Melee and Brawl For the Win, it would be Epic and Awesome

Agreed. Let's just hope that SSB4 blows Melee and Brawl out of the water.

 

[mariorocks64]

Maybe I went a bit out of line saying they were all little kids complaining, but nevertheless, that is the main audience enjoying brawl.

well..... I'll just call them kiddies anyway.

those kiddies need to get use to fast paced games!
one time, my nephew complained because my brother said he only plays baby games. then I said "the first nicktoons was kinda tough but the second one was too easy. then my brother mocked this info. "THIS GAME IS TOO HARD!!! MAKE THE NEXT ONE EASIER!!! I WANT TO UNLOCK NEW CHARACTERS EVENTHOUGH I SUCK!!!!!!" lol

I hope SSB4 has both melee physics, and brawl physics combined.

 

[Paper Mario Master]

Agreed. Let's just hope that SSB4 blows Melee and Brawl out of the water.

Hoping for it.........When ever I think of Melee I think of Marth and Mewtwo.....and Brawl is Toon Link and Ike and well a bunch of people........

 

[mariorocks64]

Agreed. Let's just hope that SSB4 blows Melee and Brawl out of the water.

in a good way or a bad way? because the kiddies can make SSB4 make a bad turn with useless rants.

hasn't anyone seen my idea for hacking brawl to turn it into SSB4?

 

[Roxas The Keyblade Bearer]

i think dark samus,shadow,tails should be in brawl along with another starfox,earthbound character and i could go on but im just too lazy to put the whole list

 

[BG3]

in a good way or a bad way? because the kiddies can make SSB4 make a bad turn with useless rants.

hasn't anyone seen my idea for hacking brawl to turn it into SSB4?

In a way Melee was, pleasing both sides of the fans.

 

[mariorocks64]

In a way Melee was, pleasing both sides of the fans.

it didn't seem to please the kiddies.

 

[Paper Mario Master]

So.............is it agreed that a combo of Melee and Brawl would be good?

Although I liked Brawl a bit more that Melee so I'd rather have it more new stuff so......2/3 Brawl 1/3 Melee and 100% SSB4 or 1/6 Melee 1/3 Brawl and 4/6 SSB4

 

[mariorocks64]

So.............is it agreed that a combo of Melee and Brawl would be good?

Although I liked Brawl a bit more that Melee so I'd rather have it more new stuff so......2/3 Brawl 1/3 Melee and 100% SSB4 or 1/6 Melee 1/3 Brawl and 4/6 SSB4

that is a very good idea! what about my idea on hacking brawl ton turn it into SSB4?