[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

[mariorocks64]

Justaway is kind of right. Daisy should just stay as a alternate color for Peach, instead of showing up in a strikers uniform in order for you to ship LuigixDaisy. Plus, the better character to represent the sports aspect of the Mario franchise is Waluigi, and he shouldn't be in anyways.

The Pokemon may be generic, but they are Pokemon. Its their thing. The Yoshi who is in Smash is most likely "the" Yoshi from the Yoshi's Island games (rather than the Yoshi who showed up in SMW or the Mario Sports games) and is somewhat unique. In either way, he got his own game, rather than Toad, who just had Wario Woods, if you can even count that. While Toad may have had a stand out pressence back in SMB2, that was only SMB2, that was only because they needed a 4th character to fill in for the 4th character of Doki Doki Panic.

And as I've said with Hammer Bro, he's just a generic enemy with no real role. At least with Jigglypuff, she was important in the anime at the time of the original Smash, but as of yet, the Hammer Brother has had very few, and very unimportant roles. Additionally, a Goomba, Koopa Troopa, or Shy Guy would make much better generic Mario enemies to use, since they are a lot more recognizable.

thats no good excuse for pokemon. I don't think history and importance really matters in smash bros. to Nintendo, it should matter about the fun. hell, BRING ON THE PARTY FAVORS. new super mario bros wii could have used wario and yoshi disable the ability to ride yoshis. but instead, they make toad playable. two of them.although, it was just to fill up the multi player. but isn't diddy a spinoff character(I'm not sure)? donkey kong originated from the classic game donkey kong.

 

[SmashChu]

Yeah, if most people had played Fire Emblem: the Binding Blade, they would have probably hated his guts. Worst... Lord... Ever.

Yeah, he's pretty weak. He was doing OK for me. I'm on chap 9 or so though.

 

[Pieman0920]

thats no good excuse for pokemon. I don't think history and importance really matters in smash bros. to Nintendo, it should matter about the fun. hell, BRING ON THE PARTY FAVORS. new super mario bros wii could have used wario and yoshi disable the ability to ride yoshis. but instead, they make toad playable. two of them.although, it was just to fill up the multi player. but isn't diddy a spinoff character(I'm not sure)? donkey kong originated from the classic game donkey kong.

It is a good excuse for Pokemon, because that's the type of game it is. Its not a platformer where all the action is done by the controlled character. Even so, the Pokemon that have been chosen have had significant roles in their games or other media, which isn't something that the Hammer Brother has had privy towards. Toad is pretty much falling down that path as well, and even in NSMBWii, its Generic Toad Yellow, and Generic Toad Blue, with the "original Toad" nowhere in sight. If they wanted to, they could have just had Wario representing Yellow, and then just had the "regular Toad" show up there to represent blue, and that would have worked the same as well, but in the end they didn't go with that.

I have no idea where you're going with that Diddy Kong thing.

 

[n88]

It is a good excuse for Pokemon, because that's the type of game it is. Its not a platformer where all the action is done by the controlled character. Even so, the Pokemon that have been chosen have had significant roles in their games or other media, which isn't something that the Hammer Brother has had privy towards. Toad is pretty much falling down that path as well, and even in NSMBWii, its Generic Toad Yellow, and Generic Toad Blue, with the "original Toad" nowhere in sight. If they wanted to, they could have just had Wario representing Yellow, and then just had the "regular Toad" show up there to represent blue, and that would have worked the same as well, but in the end they didn't go with that.

I have no idea where you're going with that Diddy Kong thing.

Actuaally, it would have been pretty easy and more logical to make Waluigi blue instead of Toad.

 

[justaway12]

thats no good excuse for pokemon. I don't think history and importance really matters in smash bros. to Nintendo, it should matter about the fun. hell, BRING ON THE PARTY FAVORS. new super mario bros wii could have used wario and yoshi disable the ability to ride yoshis. but instead, they make toad playable. two of them.although, it was just to fill up the multi player. but isn't diddy a spinoff character(I'm not sure)? donkey kong originated from the classic game donkey kong.

Pokemon needed more characters, they are Nintendos 2nd best selling franchise, they were obviously going to be represented, and those particular ones were added because they were popular, except Pokemon Trainer and possibly Lucario.

No Diddy kong isn't a spin-off character, I'm pretty sure he appered in Donkey kong country but IDK, even if it did it is selling surprisingly well for a nintendo.

 

[Pieman0920]

Actuaally, it would have been pretty easy and more logical to make Waluigi blue instead of Toad.

?

How so? Waluigi is purple and black, while the traditional Toad is Blue, White, and Red. I guess in the end it would have balanced out fairly well with Waluigi though, since it would be the two Mario brothers and the two Wario...whatevers. (I don't think it was ever confirmed that they were brothers)

Oh, and while I know how this topic looooves FE discussion, a thought comes to mind. What if the third FE spot (assuming there is no new game) goes to Sheeda? While she isn't a lord technically, she still plays a important role in the original FE, which is technically the most recent with the DS remake. In addition, she could use a spear (or class change) to make her stand out.

 

[n88]

?

How so? Waluigi is purple and black, while the traditional Toad is Blue, White, and Red. I guess in the end it would have balanced out fairly well with Waluigi though, since it would be the two Mario brothers and the two Wario...whatevers. (I don't think it was ever confirmed that they were brothers)

Oh, and while I know how this topic looooves FE discussion, a thought comes to mind. What if the third FE spot (assuming there is no new game) goes to Sheeda? While she isn't a lord technically, she still plays a important role in the original FE, which is technically the most recent with the DS remake. In addition, she could use a spear (or class change) to make her stand out.

Waluigi's purple, admittedly, but the traditional Toad's most prominent color is red, not blue. I just think Waluigi would work better than Toad for P4 if Wario were P3. And yes, having the Wario (Bros? Freaks? People?) Things together would be epic.

Never played FE, so Sheeda means zilch to me.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

Eliwood's bad too but Roy's "holy Jesus this is the third time he's died on this map" bad. He should be an item that you throw at your enemies.

I must've been lucky, I didn't have much trouble with Roy until being level 20 was a liability. Still, he could've been worse.

Toad is pretty much falling down that path as well, and even in NSMBWii, its Generic Toad Yellow, and Generic Toad Blue, with the "original Toad" nowhere in sight.

I always figured the original Toad was pretty much done by the time Toadsworth started showing up. Not like Donkey Kong Jr. gone, since he's still in the spinoffs, but yeah. Shame they missed a great chance with NSMBWii.


And why is this thread always nigh unreadable whenever I pop my head in?

 

[Mario the Jumpman]

Someone mentioned liking Pichu about several pages back, right? We have Pikachu; Smash 4 is better off without Pichu (who by the way stinks worse than King Hippo's shoes (and I apologize to King Hippo)).

And I don't really support Shiida as a playable fighter very much...

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

Since Pichu had no data in Brawl, I think it's safe to say he's gone for good. The only way I could ever see him returning would be as an alternate costume for Pikachu (since his head, ears, and tail are big enough to reasonably fit inside Pikachu's hitboxes). Also, King Hippo has stinkier places than his shoes. His poop factory, for example.

I think Pieman is just grasping straws for non-sword weilding FE Lords, because apparently that's important. Prove me wrong!

 

[Pieman0920]

I woudn't say Sheeda is grasping at straws really. She's like the number 2 of the original game, and I think it may make more sense to expand on Marth's universe before Ike's. (Plus, its recent)

 

[Mario the Jumpman]

I pretty much know that the answer is no, but should Mike Tyson be playable in Smash 4, since he helped the NES Punch-Out!! achieve a bit more popularity? And the answer's very likely to be NO.

 

[Neckbeard Torterra]

i already called him, he said he was busy and that he wasn't interested in something that was only 95% explosions.

Joke of the day.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

I pretty much know that the answer is no, but should Mike Tyson be playable in Smash 4, since he helped the NES Punch-Out!! achieve a bit more popularity? And the answer's very likely to be NO.

Definitely no, especially since he's been associated with **** and ripping people's ears off.

That said, Mr. Sandman would be a good substitute, since his design is apparently inspired by him. He looks threatening enough, too (that's a compliment to Mr. Sandman, by the way).

 

[Spydr Enzo]

I still think the third spot (if there is no Fire Emblem game) for Fire Emblem will go to Roy. His status in his games clearly do not matter, as people who played with him or enjoyed his appearance in Melee would enjoy seeing him return again.

Also, what about Lyn? She was once very popular and has the most attention in Brawl for a non-playable Fire Emblem character. Plus, isn't she from the first Fire Emblem game released in America? I could be wrong though. But I think Lyn's chances are decent conidering her attention from Sakurai and her popularity, plus she represents a different generation, in between Marth and Ike, kind of helping to fill in the generation gap.

 

[Mario the Jumpman]

Punch-Out!! might get only one SSB4 rep, but if it can have two, who would be more likely: Glass Joe OR Sandman OR maybe King Hippo if Nintendo gives him the ability to get up after being knocked down?

And Lyn could be good as a third FE rep; she was a reliable AT helper and she was Roy's mom.

 

[Fatmanonice]

I must've been lucky, I didn't have much trouble with Roy until being level 20 was a liability. Still, he could've been worse.

Yeah, you must have been because the RNG ***** him like 90% of the time. I'm going through Fire Emblem for the third time and, miracle of miracles, Eliwood's not borderline useless this time around and I got him to level 20 by chapter 18 which is funny because, in my second playthrough in Hector's mode, I didn't even get him past level 7.

 

[Mario the Jumpman]

Was Roy popular in Japan? Sakurai thinks about Japan more than the rest of the world, doesn't he?

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Punch-Out!! might get only one SSB4 rep, but if it can have two, who would be more likely: Glass Joe OR Sandman OR maybe King Hippo if Nintendo gives him the ability to get up after being knocked down?

And Lyn could be good as a third FE rep; she was a reliable AT helper and she was Roy's mom.

Who would be likely as a Punch-Out rep? Either Glass Joe (S'il vous plait, ne frappez pas mon menton!) or Mr. Sandman (Good night!). I'm a bit on the fence between those 2.

King Hippo, on the other hand, would be in as a boss. He's not exactly the most mobile king in the world.

Lyn seems to be rather notable, yes. She could bring a bit of variety to the FE mix.

 

[mariorocks64]

one toad could represeent for all the other toads. we don't need toadsworth breaking his back during a game. well, here is my moveset




Entrance: Toad jumps out of his mushroom ship he yells "YEEHAWW!!!!!!".


Standard Attacks
A: punch
A a: punch
A A A: double kick
running A: head butt
side tilt: a colored flag. (a random color)
up tilt: a spear pointed upwards.
down tilt: a low kick that makes enemies trip
side smash: blue hammer
up smash: head butt
down smash: same as diddy


ariel attacks

standard: kick
forward: like diddy
backward: Toadsworth's stick
upward: head butt
downward: a stomp like Ganondorf. its stronger, but has no elements like ganondorf.



Special moves
standard: a bazooka. its chargeable. when charged, a firery cannonball comes out instead of a missle
side: jumps on his head and spins. can move around to hurt someone.
up: a jetpack
down: he jumps, he will grab whoever he lands on. then, he can walk around like DK. he can either throw thee enemy, or trap him in the ground.
Final smash: toad goes inside a yellow ship and flies away. then 3 other mushroom ship appear. the red one shoots lasers, the green one tries to ram you, and the blue one drops bombs. soon, the yellow ship will spawn an army of toads and they raid the stage to push opponents out.when all the toads fall off the stage, the real toad comes out and lands on the stage. and the final smash ends.


Grabs
grab attack: headbutt
forward throw: turns enemy around and kicks him to send him flying
backward throw: just like pikachu
down throw: puts you on the ground and he stomps on you.
up throw: holds you in the air and heead butts you upwards.

taunts
taunt 1: jumps for joy
taunt 2: waves to the screen and says "Hello"
taunt 3: the same thing he does in mario kart 64 when he is selected..
winning pose 1: same winning pose in mario party 7
winning pose 2: jumps for joy and say "WA HA HA! I'm the Best!
winning pose 3: he does his side B, then he gets dizzy and falls to the ground.
losing pose: he sits down and cries



Stats
speed: llllllllllllllllllllllll
power:llllllllllllllllll
agility:llllllllllllllllllllllllll
defense:llllllllllllll
offensellllllllllllllll

Toad is a fast runnier, his weapons, and his head are strong. his head is great defense, eveen though he still flinches.


specials
Crawl: yes
wall jump: yes
glide: no
wall cling: yes

Toad B move came from a quote in super mario RPG
Toads side special is a victory dance in mario strikers charged.
Toad stole toadsworth's stick.
in team battle, toad can free a partner who is trapped in the ground.



this is my moveset for toad. any questions?

 

[codfish92]

move sets should really go in make your move. but i would say remove the crawl, toad is kinda small as it is, he shouldn't be able to crawl. also, he shouldn't be able to jump too high, he again is pretty small. small things don't jump too high

 

[mariorocks64]

move sets should really go in make your move. but i would say remove the crawl, toad is kinda small as it is, he shouldn't be able to crawl. also, he shouldn't be able to jump too high, he again is pretty small. small things don't jump too high

size doesn't matter. remember that.its the strength and health of the body.

 

[codfish92]

it's concept of volume. a snail, no matter how fit it is can't jump or move very fast(unless it has super muscles) if it kept his same size. the only way toad could jump that high is if he had some gliding or air moving system.

 

[Arcadenik]

Yoshi in Smash is not the Yoshi from SMW and spin-off games nor the generic Yoshis from Yoshi games. Yoshi in Smash is the amalgamation of all the Yoshis in the Marioverse.

Yoshi's specials
Egg Lay - from SMW and Yoshi games
Egg Roll - made-up but later appeared in Mario Power Tennis
Egg Throw - from Yoshi games
Yoshi Bomb - from Yoshi games
Super Dragon - from SMW

So, why can't Toad in Smash be the amalgamation of all the Toads in the Marioverse, including the Toad in SMB2, WW, and spin-off games and the generic Toads in NSMBWii?

Yoshis and Toads are more important than all the other generic species in the Marioverse like Goombas, Koopas, Shy Guys, and Boos. Yoshis and Toads are also the only generic species who are playable outside of spin-off games.

 

[codfish92]

i'm not saying toad can't be in it. i was just providing feed back on the moveset. and stating that movesets should go in make you move. it's entirely plausible(but not likely) that toad be in the next smash.

 

[mariorocks64]

i'm not saying toad can't be in it. i was just providing feed back on the moveset. and stating that movesets should go in make you move. it's entirely plausible(but not likely) that toad be in the next smash.

If toad was in smash, I will throw a party. seriously. I'll just lie about what the party is for.

 

[n88]

I've been thinking about Dr. Mario lately. That got me thinking about how people want him to be a costume in SSB4, and that led me to think about what other costumes could be in. By costume, I mean a color swap accessed in the normal way, but is more differentiated from the costume of the original character (In other words, uses a different model). Just like how Wario has two suits. Some ideas below:

Mario - Dr. Mario
Peach - Daisy
Bowser - Dry Bowser
DK - Funky Kong
Yoshi - Boshi
Wario - Duh
Link - Feirce Deity Link
Zelda/Sheik - Nayru/Din
Samus - Dark Samus
Ice Climbers - Baby Mario Bros
Olimar - Louie
C. Falcon - Blood Falcon
Pikachu - Pichu
Jigglypuff - (I don't know much about Pokemon, but if there isn't one that could be a swap for Jiggly, I would be surprised)
Marth or Ike - Roy (If he doesn't return)
Ness - Ninten
Mr. Game & Watch - Mrs. Game & Watch (Lulz)
Snake - Old Snake
Sonic - Shadow

Those are all the ones I could think of.

 

[mariorocks64]

I like the dry bowser idea.

item: dry shell
you throw a green shell. sometimes, the green shell will turn out to be a dry shell. when thrown, the shell breaks. then it forms into dry bones. and dry bones attacks anyone it sees. and I mean anyone. it will throw bones at you. sometimes, it will make an army and they will all try to kill everyone. so the players and CPU will try to knock them all off stage.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

I've been thinking about Dr. Mario lately. That got me thinking about how people want him to be a costume in SSB4, and that led me to think about what other costumes could be in. By costume, I mean a color swap accessed in the normal way, but is more differentiated from the costume of the original character (In other words, uses a different model). Just like how Wario has two suits.

I'll vouch for that, since I also want to see some more alternate costumes.

Mario - Dr. Mario

Good enough.

Peach - Daisy

Design change or dress change?

Bowser - Dry Bowser

That would suit him nicely. :bigthumbu

DK - Funky Kong

That would actually work, since Funky's design is so similar to DK.

Yoshi - Boshi

If Geno shows up in the next game, it'll happen.

Wario - Duh

No need to change a winning formula!

Link - Feirce Deity Link

That will work.

Zelda/Sheik - Nayru/Din

A bit unusual, but okay.

Samus - Dark Samus

That's an ideal way to put in DS without sacrificing Ridley.

Ice Climbers - Baby Mario Bros

Actually, I think that Balloon Fighter 1P and 2P would suit them better.

Olimar - Louie

It would require a design change, but okay.

C. Falcon - Blood Falcon

Doesn't he already have one of those in the pallette?

Pikachu - Pichu

Less likely. Raichu would be preferable (although even that is a stretch).

Jigglypuff - (I don't know much about Pokemon, but if there isn't one that could be a swap for Jiggly, I would be surprised)

No idea.

Marth or Ike - Roy (If he doesn't return)

Not so likely.

Ness - Ninten

Makes sense.

Mr. Game & Watch - Mrs. Game & Watch (Lulz)

Not really.

Snake - Old Snake

That's appropriate enough for him.

Sonic - Shadow

The only thing missing would be the upside-down quills, otherwise it works.

 

[codfish92]

I've been thinking about Dr. Mario lately. That got me thinking about how people want him to be a costume in SSB4, and that led me to think about what other costumes could be in. By costume, I mean a color swap accessed in the normal way, but is more differentiated from the costume of the original character (In other words, uses a different model). Just like how Wario has two suits. Some ideas below:

Mario - Dr. Mario
Peach - Daisy
Bowser - Dry Bowser
DK - Funky Kong
Yoshi - Boshi
Wario - Duh
Link - Feirce Deity Link
Zelda/Sheik - Nayru/Din
Samus - Dark Samus
Ice Climbers - Baby Mario Bros
Olimar - Louie
C. Falcon - Blood Falcon
Pikachu - Pichu
Jigglypuff - (I don't know much about Pokemon, but if there isn't one that could be a swap for Jiggly, I would be surprised)
Marth or Ike - Roy (If he doesn't return)
Ness - Ninten
Mr. Game & Watch - Mrs. Game & Watch (Lulz)
Snake - Old Snake
Sonic - Shadow

Those are all the ones I could think of.

that the best idea i've heard in a long time.

jiggly puff could be clefary(idk if that is spelled correctly), or she could be wigglytuff(slightly taller, but less round)

 

[BKupa666]

​

It's nearing two years since I finished the original Andy's Toys moveset, the only MYM3 set of mine that placed in the Top 50. Seeing as how all of the originals actually had playstyle potential, I have repolished and revamped them; here are Mr. Potato Head, Rex, Hamm, and Slinky, in time to coincide with Toy Story 3.

​

​

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Mr. Potato Head and Rex:
Potato Head benefits from having Rex on his side in a team match, seeing as how he'll need Rex's strong Smashes to win team matches. He can rack plenty of damage just fine, but manipulating parts during a gimp while two characters are pressuring him is a nightmare. Rex essentially becomes Potato Head's bitch in this team. He will have to be the one to KO his opponents, but unless he's letting Potato Head buff his Smashes or actually going for the KO, Rex must take a passive approach to the match, while Potato Head is the one going after your rivals.

Potato Head will always want to be the one going after opponents; Rex's survival is of high priority, seeing as how without him, Potato Head is stuck with no opening for KOs. It's to Rex's disadvantage to simply enter the fray, as his large size will be the death of him. He'll want to take to the air immediately, and use F-Air / B-Air copter to hover out of the way, buffing his Smashes in the process. Although Rex can try assisting Potato Head with longer-ranged attacks, his focus should be remaining as invisible as possible; he's a huge target in a multiplayer match. Potato Head will want to stick close to Rex at all times to defend him; because of this, Rex dictates where the fight takes place. He should try and maneuver himself into an ideal position for both Potato Head and himself, preferably one spacious enough for Rex's safety, as well as for Potato Head placing his spare parts. To clear out opponents, the duo can collaborate in using their Down Specials.

Possibly the best tactic Potato Head and Rex share is their ability to give the other some breathing room. Potato Head can send out Aliens to push away oncoming enemies, while preventing Rex from being *****. Rex can blow opponents away with a roar, giving Potato Head an opportunity to toss out spare parts and fill them with jacks. Rex can sit himself in front of any shoes Potato Head extracts and tell his teammate to Smash him whenever he's ready to use Neutral Special. Absorb the damage of the extra parts, then get to work seeking the KO. In contrast with Potato Head, Rex can KO more liberally in team matches. He can use his own stunners to make a character vulnerable, or let Potato Head bog them down before letting loose. Once the power is in Rex's hands, your opponents are in big trouble.

If you play without team attack for whatever reason, Potato Head loses this method of powering Rex up, but gains a tactic for defending Rex. Setting up a hat zone for Rex to hide gives Potato Head more freedom to tackle opponents on his own. Since he'll be eaten alive if he tries to use Neutral Special against two characters at once, Rex will want to focus solely on staying alive until Potato Head puts distance between his two opponents. With the rival teammates separated, Rex can go after one of them with the intent of absorbing damage, without having anything to fear.


Mr. Potato Head and Hamm:
Potato Head serves as both a damage-racker and a distraction during the first phase of a match alongside Hamm. Hamm obviously lacks Potato Head's close range supremacy, so he's better off letting his comedic partner take on opponents. Unlike Rex, however, Hamm will be remaining much less passive as he sits back. In fact, he won't be passive at all; he'll be hard at work, setting up towers while Potato head bides him time with his melee abilities and spacers. The more time you give Hamm to set up towers, the smoother the rest of the match will flow.

Hamm should attempt to set up two walls with which to trap Potato Head and the opposing team in close quarters. This is really Potato Head's time to shine; by using his multi-hitting aerials in combination with jabs and grabs, he can really wreak havoc on opponents. Although Hamm will want to stay out of the arena he's enclosed, he can conservatively drop in coins with N-Air, tripping foes for Potato Head. The spry spud can push opponents into these with a spacer, then punish their trip with a Smash. If he's careful, Hamm can join the fight, spraying opponents against a taped block wall with Side Special. You should only really attempt this if the two opponents are on opposite sides of the enclosed arena, as you don't want either character to take damage from friendly fire.

You may be wondering why towers are important to this match, when Potato Head can build damage on opponents just fine without being enclosed. Well, they're necessary for KOs, seeing as how Potato Head's gimping is nullified with two characters at his throat. However, he finds it incredibly to knock towers onto foes by throwing parts from a safe range. If Potato Head ever gets finished off during the match, the towers Hamm has set up will enable his survival as well. First off, the towers, taped or untaped, are obstacles that your opponents will have to navigate on their path to Hamm. If untaped, one enemy may knock a tower onto the other, doing Hamm's work for him. Hamm does have a bit of trouble spacing from two opponents physically, although his supply of soldiers, coins, and tape traps will serve him well in this regard. Hamm's spray of coins can easily put the hurt on multiple foes, and knocking down towers is no problem during the chaos of a multiplayer match.

Hamm and Potato Head's strategies don't vary too drastically with team attack turned off, except that Hamm can now enter the area he's enclosed to build damage on the opposing team even faster with a coin spray. Considering Potato Head can do so fine on his own, Hamm may still want to play a more secondary role, so if Potato Head is finished off, he can prolong his team's lifespan by taking on opponents without the damage he may accumulate in a close-ranged free-for-all.

Mr. Potato Head and Slinky:
Potato Head and Slinky both specialize in quick damage-building. The two players on a team will have to experiment in this match-up to determine which strategies lend themselves to doing so without shooting each other in the foot. Potato Head must refrain from placing spare arms he intends to grab with near Slinky (so as not to interrupt his Neutral Special), while Slinky beware which character he attacks if Potato Head ventures inside his circle to pressure a victim.

Potato Head's role in the first phase of the match is similar to that when he plays alongside Hamm. He'll be the one biding time for his teammate early on, but rather than setting the stage to his liking, Slinky will be stretching himself out. All Potato Head has to do is grab an opponent, or allow his Aliens to carry them away, and Slinky will be all set to surround a victim. As Slinky takes to the skies, Potato Head must really turn it up offensively, in order to defend Slinky. You really don't want him to lose his stretch distance, especially if you want to surround multiple opponents.

You do have the option of surrounding a single opponent, in which case Potato Head will want to keep the one not encircled occupied. Slinky can rack damage with his usual tactics on a surrounded opponent. If it seems the outside character will interrupt his pose, he has the option of rolling them up with F-Smash, although he does so at the risk of snaring Potato Head as well. With multiple opponents, Slinky's damage-racking becomes even easier; as opponents bounce between his spring walls, they'll collide with each other frequently, taking damage even more quickly. When it comes time to KO, Slinky can either use his normal methods, or simply grab a foe with a stretched spring, and allow Potato Head to gimp them as usual.

In the absence of team attack, Potato Head can enter Slinky's circle without the danger of being slung around. He can simply grab an encircled victim as Slinky stretches his sling at them, or wait around directly above Slinky. If an opponent tries escaping, he can use B-Air or D-Air to bring them back to the ground, giving Slinky a juicy opening for damage.

Rex and Hamm
Rex is forced to step up to the plate and show some bravery at the start of this match-up. Although Hamm is superior to Rex at close range, he must start off in the background, piecing together towers; Hamm's structures are essential to winning this match. It's Rex's priority to ensure he has time to do so, so he's going to have to use any means necessary to keep opponents focused on him. Hamm will have to rely on the space the Rex player gives him to do so, as he can't set up much of anything with two characters coming at him.

By using Down Special, Rex can push victims away from Hamm. If they get close to him, moves such as D-Smash without added damage can trip foes, while pummeling them can stun them temporarily. As a last resort, just offer yourself up as combo food to keep the opposing team busy. Use any means necessary to give Hamm time to set up; don't worry too much about taking damage, as you're not as vital later on. Once Hamm has a single, taped tower up, he'll want to take over for Rex, who is more likely than not fairly beat up at this point. Corner the opposing team against the tower and let loose Side Special on them. You'll be holding it out for a fairly long time, considering Rex won't have built much damage with his slow attacks. Hold onto your army men, as they can deal with a single opponent better than a pair.

Although Hamm and Rex start off the match in a rather disadvantageous rut, once they get momentum, they're in a big power position, especially when it comes to KOs. Hamm can always knock down his tower on opponents for an easy KO. He can also build a separate one for the express purpose of knocking it onto Rex, for him to absorb with Neutral Special if he hasn't stacked enough damage onto his Smashes with earlier enemy attacks. If you can, try to give Rex the safety net of a guaranteed KO, just in case a stray attack topples your tower before you can. After Hamm relieves Rex of his duties, he should flee to build damage on his Smashes, giving him this extra option.

Without team attack, Rex has the additional choice of whaling on opponents caught in Hamm's Side Special, to build damage faster. Although adding damage to your Smashes in the air should be a higher priority, this option damages the opposing team faster, allowing Hamm to conserve a few more seconds on Side Special. Unlike when paired with Potato Head, no team attack doesn't affect how Rex adds damage to his Smashes; Hamm can still knock towers onto Rex, due to the tower collapsing not qualifying as an attack from Hamm himself.

Rex and Slinky
Slinky is going to have to do most of his set-up work on his own, considering Rex is poorly-suited to distracting opponents. Fortunately for him, it's not nearly as important for Rex to defend his partner as it is when he's paired with Hamm. Slinky is able to fend off opponents by snapping at them as he stretches himself out. A helping hand never hurts, however; Slinky would appreciate it if Rex roared opponents away from him so he can reach maximum length early on.

Imprisoning a character isn't difficult for Slinky; Rex can go after characters with his stunners, leaving Slinky time to drop down on them with Neutral Special. Rex won't have to worry about occupying his victims for too long. Slinky is fast enough to get airborne and encircle opponents in a matter of seconds; he'll be able to save Rex before his opponents start overwhelming him. Ideally, Rex won't have accumulated too much damage at this point; Slinky doesn't take as long to set up as Hamm, and Rex won't be as actively interfering.

Slinky is important for building damage in the match...you don't need me to spoonfeed you that. However, him keeping opponents in his coils serves a dual purpose. The second purpose is to keep the opposing team from Rex, allowing him to get into the air and buff his Smashes. Since Rex has an easier time KOing opponents than Slinky, he'll be all set up to finish them off whenever Slinky sees fit to release them. Slinky won't need to hold onto opponents for too long in order for Rex to sufficiently power himself up. Doing so for a little longer than usual in order to allow Rex to buff himself to the point of being overpowered is not necessarily a bad thing, though (quite the contrary).

Although without team attack, Rex can jump into Slinky's circle and use stunners on trapped opponents, he's better off staying outside. Not only will he be removed from the risk of enemy attacks, he'll have time to buff his Smashes, which will be nigh impossible with the former option.

Hamm and Slinky
Due to both characters requiring set-up in order to come out on top, the players will have to decide which characters gets to set up first. Hamm requires more back-up than Slinky in order to operate, which Slinky can't always provide without set-up of his own. Therefore, Hamm will want to send army men and coin traps after opponents while Slinky stretches himself out. Slinky will be much more useful later on with a longer middle (even moreso than usual).

These tactics also serve as a thorn in the opposing team's side when it comes time for Slinky to surround them. Once Slinky has them in his coils, he'll want to keep them trapped for as long as possible, returning the favor for Hamm and giving him time to construct his block city. Hamm will likely more time than Rex for his set-up, so Slinky will have to bring out the stunning aspect of his grab. Snare an opponent by adding a grab hitbox to any spring-based move, then constrict or slam them to keep them in your coils for a longer period of time. Hamm will greatly appreciate an environment in which he can build towers without the threat of them falling on his head. Of note, Hamm should be wary of setting up tape traps in this match; they can snag Slinky's spring out of his Neutral Special, due to being a grab hitbox, which is the last thing Hamm wants.

Where onstage Hamm sets up a tower has no real bearing on the match, as long as it's on the same ground level as Slinky. He can knock a tower over right into the midst of Slinky's circle; due to his spring only being affected by grabs, the blocks won't damage him at all. Slinky can simply grab an opponent and let Hamm do the honors. If Hamm wants to play it safe and build a tower away from Slinky, in case his victims escape and knock it down on your team, you still have that KO option in your hands. Slinky can simply roll into the tower with F-Smash, although in this scenario, he may actually get hit himself (not good, due to his light weight).

This is the one toy team where essentially nothing changes without team attack. All strategies are still viable, and the few newer ones should be avoided. Hamm should never enter Slinky's circle; building towers is much more important than building damage at a slightly faster rate. Although you can set up tape traps more safely now, Hamm should still direct his focus on building; Slinky can fare well enough with his own stunners.

Mr. Potato Head vs. Rex - 50/50: Draw
The key to beating Rex is to limit his opportunities to absorb damage. Potato Head can do so with relative ease by pressuring Rex with his multi-hitting attacks, such as U-Tilt, D-Smash, and several aerials. Rex has trouble facing Potato Head in close-range combat, due to his slower attacks that can't combo in the slightest. Looking at the short term repercussions of this, Rex would seem to be fighting a losing battle. However, when it comes to KOs, he's got Potato Head one-upped. You see, Potato Head will be attacking with multi-hit attacks whenever possible, to force Rex to suffer multiple hits to absorb just one for future use. This would be a problem against an opponent with a traditional KO method. The problem is, if Rex defends himself properly, Potato Head will have a lot of trouble using his parts against Rex.

The neurotic lizard can blow parts onstage off the edge with Down Special, taking them out of the game until Potato Head is KOed. Because Rex isn't physically handling the parts he roars at, Potato Head cannot attack with the parts to prevent them from going offstage, as he can when a character is holding them. Potato Head needs his parts for gimp KOs, so he's essentially forced to conserve them until he's ready to finish Rex off. Even then, you'll have to ensure Rex doesn't blow your airborne parts away, or use super armor to nullify the gimp. Of course, Potato Head isn't completely screwed, seeing as how he can still fight without parts, but it does cripple his damage-building a bit. It will be a while before Rex adds enough damage to a Smash by absorbing the weak first hits of combo moves to KO his adversary, which makes it all the more vital that he lands the finishing blow when the time comes. Rex has very little room to slip up, but if Potato Head's weakness is exploited well enough with Rex's defense, he can fight a very toe-to-toe match against him.

Mr. Potato Head vs. Hamm - 75/25: Mr. Potato Head's Favor
Potato Head has the easy option of approaching Hamm early and preventing him from getting any towers up...but it's not necessary for him at all, considering the new strategies opened up to Potato Head with blocks onstage. This match-up goes pretty much how Potato Head dictates it to go. Hamm must space flawlessly to prevent Potato Head from interfering, and to build damage when the time comes.

The kicker here is that, even when Potato Head isn't up close to Hamm, the acidic spud can still play the game by sending out his spare parts and Aliens. No matter how far Potato Head is from Hamm, it's a lose-lose situation for the plastic pig. Aliens and spare parts can easily push away multiple soldiers; both can also be placed on a piece of Hamm's tape to create an obstacle for the piggy bank, as well as prevent him from knocking them away. Potato Head's preference to KO from a range doesn't change, but he's not limited to just gimping. By inflating a part and tossing it at Hamm's tower as he's building it, he can topple his own work on him. Because Hamm relies so heavily on getting up towers for KOs, Potato Head can rely on them being out, and consistently take advantage of them for his own gain. Merely getting up a tower without being battered around is a huge challenge for Hamm in this match-up.

Mr. Potato Head vs. Slinky - 25/75: Slinky's Favor
Unlike Hamm and especially Rex, Slinky can actually keep up with Potato Head to give him limited time to throw out parts. Because parts are the only real option Potato Head has for overcoming Slinky, he'll have to prioritize this over stretching himself out from a distance. As he still has the options of Dash Attack and D-Air, however, this is no game-changer for Slinky.

Slinky won't have too much difficulty imprisoning Potato Head, considering he'll have to approach to build damage without the luxury of spare parts. Once he's in Slinky's coils, Aliens, jacks, and spare shoes won't free him from his non-hurtbox springy prison; only arms will do the trick, by grabbing Slinky's spring. However, Slinky can simply prevent Potato Head from getting an arm out in the first place, and if he somehow fails at this, he can roll to a safe place with F-Smash. Due to being unable to safely get out parts, Potato Head will have trouble gimping Slinky (who's difficult to gimp in the first place, what with N-Air copter), while Slinky can KO fine by releasing his rebounding opponent. Potato Head's moves can KO Slinky's light weight more reliably than they can against heftier characters, but he'll often be attempting a comeback to do so, considering Slinky will be far ahead in the damage count by then.

Rex vs. Hamm - 25/75: Hamm's Favor
Both characters will be wanting to start this match at a distance. Due to Rex wanting to remain at a distance in the air at first to power up his Smashes, Hamm has plenty of time to construct towers. When it comes time to close the gap, Rex is at a thorough disadvantage. Hamm is the superior character at close combat; his multi-hitting damage-builders also force Rex to take damage if he wants to add damage to his Smashes. In addition, if Hamm corners Rex against a taped tower with a spray of coins, Rex will be thoroughly screwed, what with his poor DI and large size and weight.

While Rex can fight well against traps and obstacles that he can blow away (see Potato Head match-up), Hamm has the perfect counter to this. It's called tape. If Hamm tapes down his blocks, soldiers, and N-Air coins, Rex will be unable to blow them away. Hamm can also set up tape traps onstage to hold Rex down, preventing him from absorbing the hit of a falling tower. Big bulky Rex will be fighting an uphill battle staying away from all the damaging, immovable objects, while Hamm could care less, as he uses his chaingrabs and pushing moves to ensure his collapsing towers land right on target. It's much easier to land them on Rex as well, due to his sheer mass.

Rex vs. Slinky - 75/25: Rex's Favor
It may come as shocking that a heavyweight male protagonist such as Rex comes out on top of a speedy lightweight damage-racker, but it's true. Slinky has the misfortune of spoon-feeding Rex opportunities to absorb damage whenever he attempts to rebound Rex inside his circle pose. Rex is more than happy to simply allow Slinky to surround him, just to gain access to these chances. As such, the fact that Rex can't get to Slinky fast enough to prevent him from stretching has no real effect on him.

As soon as Slinky starts stretching his spring towards an encircled Rex, all Rex has to do is brace himself and use Neutral Special. He'll absorb the damage and won't even rebound. Because Slinky will be racking damage on Rex at a much slower rate, it will be a while before he can KO the big guy. Even then, he'll have to do so craftily, in a way that Rex won't predict and absorb. You could try knocking Rex offstage and gimping him with N-Air, but it'll be a while before you can knock Rex anywhere. Rex will be able to send his light opponent flying far before that point anyways.

Hamm vs. Slinky - 50/50: Draw
Hamm has more time to get up his towers than he does facing Potato Head. Slinky won't want them onstage, but considering his set-up is much more important to his game than Potato Head's, Hamm will have less to worry about while Slinky stretches at a distance. Slinky can try stretching at close range, but a barrage of soldiers can hold off Hamm's canine opponent just fine.

Slinky may seem to have the clear advantage at first; blocks don't damage his spring, so he can simply D-Smash a tower out of circle pose to dispose of it, or direct Hamm into his own tower after grabbing him. Fortunately, Hamm's tape gets him out of another jam quite conveniently. By placing tape all over the stage, he can free himself from Slinky's coils, due to the tape having a grab hitbox, and knock blocks onto Slinky as he's stuck. Unlike Potato Head with his arms, Hamm isn't limited to just two pieces of tape onstage, so he can place them all around to his liking, preventing Slinky from simply rolling to safety. In addition, to prevent from being rebounded off the side, Hamm can tape together a wall of blocks, and tech off it to cancel his momentum as he's launched. Both characters can rack damage decently on each other, but both shut down each others' KO methods conveniently. A professional Hamm and Slinky match can take quite some time...patience will be key from both players.

Mr. Potato Head vs. Rex vs. Hamm vs. Slinky: 45/25/15/15
Potato Head is far and away the best at building damage in a free-for-all setting. Rex is a joke at close range and Slinky will have trouble stretching enough to imprison all three characters and rebound them. Hamm can spray coins, but for a limited time; he'll have trouble having the time to send out soldiers or set up tape, though. Of course, the problem Potato Head has in his team matchups lingers on in this one...although he can rack damage, he can't gimp KO with three characters coming at him at once.

Which means, the toys will have to form alliances to come out on top. Potato Head needs an alliance in order to KO, while the others need an alliance to outlast the moody spud. Potato Head is best off aligning himself with Hamm; considering how Slinky's light weight is easy to finish off, while Rex can easily be comboed, the duo can run the show fairly easily. What's more, Potato Head can dominate Hamm once it's just the two of them left. Hamm will essentially be playing for second place in this matchup, unless he's smart enough to let Potato Head take the damage, then finish him off before he gets the chance to do the same.

Rex and Slinky will want to team up in order to take out the other two before vice versa. Slinky can surround Rex and spoonfeed him chances to absorb damage. Rex can then KO Potato Head and Hamm with his souped-up Smashes. Like Potato Head with Hamm, this option will be in Rex's best interest as well, considering he can overcome Slinky at the final two. This alliance is more difficult to maintain than Potato Head and Hamm's, due to those two being able to hit Rex out of Slinky's grasp with ranged moves. Hamm and Slinky, the losers in these match-ups, have little they can do when teamed up to overcome Potato Head and Rex, although they may wish to do so, just so they have an actual chance once only two characters remain. Potato Head wins this FFA most often, due to his close-range prowess and versatility, although with the proper temporary-truces, the other toys aren't completely out of the picture (Rex has the best chance of the remaining three, while Hamm and Slinky's chances are about even).

 

[Arcadenik]

I don't see how Toad is any less likely than Bowser Jr. and Paper Mario.

 

[Wizzerd]

I don't see how Toad is any less likely than Bowser Jr. and Paper Mario.

Bowser Jr. and Paper Mario are unique characters. There is no Toad anymore outside of spinoffs, there are Toads. It would be like adding a random Goomba.

 

[Spydr Enzo]

Bowser Jr. is definitely more likely than Toad. It can be argued that Paper Mario is at equal footing with Toad, although Paper Mario seems to be the more popular choice. I wouldn't be surprised to see Toad in SSB4, but I am expecting Bowser Jr. to appear, which just seems more likely.

 

[Wizzerd]

Bowser Jr. is definitely more likely than Toad. It can be argued that Paper Mario is at equal footing with Toad, although Paper Mario seems to be the more popular choice. I wouldn't be surprised to see Toad in SSB4, but I am expecting Bowser Jr. to appear, which just seems more likely.

Paper Mario IS at an equal footing with Toad. He's actually lightyears more likely. ChronoBound captures most of my sentiments in his ULTIMATE Probable Playable Characters in Brawl topic from a while back:

Originally, Toad was one of the five most important characters in the Mario series. The Toad was one of four playable characters in Super Mario Bros. 2, was the main protagonist of Wario’s Woods, an important character in Super Mario RPG, and was one of the characters that showed in the Mario Kart games. Unfortunately, The Toad, is basically missing in action. The last game he had an important role in was Super Mario RPG which was released back in 1996. Toad was one of the “now or never” characters for Melee. Toad’s only chances of ever entering the Smash Bros. series as a playable character existed back before Melee’s release. Super Mario Bros. 2 was just re-released for the Game Boy Advance, he was still one of the main racers in Mario Kart (Mario Kart: Super Circuit was just released), and Wario’s Woods was one of the hidden games in Animal Crossing. Toad, unfortunately, did not get in Melee, and simply became one of Peach’s special moves and a trophy. Since then, even the generic Toad has been getting a lesser role in the Mario games. Toad was a hidden character in Mario Kart: Double Dash (instead of being a starter like in the other games) and was not even playable in Mario Power Tennis. Toad has been shown to be one of Peach’s special moves, which has basically deconfirmed him again.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=124098

 

[Pieman0920]

I still think the third spot (if there is no Fire Emblem game) for Fire Emblem will go to Roy. His status in his games clearly do not matter, as people who played with him or enjoyed his appearance in Melee would enjoy seeing him return again.

Isn't that a really bad way of picking characters though? Its disregarding what fans of the series want, for those who are not fans. By this logic, I'd say that Waluigi would be the most likely Mario character, since more people probably recognise him over Bowser Jr.

Also, what about Lyn? She was once very popular and has the most attention in Brawl for a non-playable Fire Emblem character. Plus, isn't she from the first Fire Emblem game released in America? I could be wrong though. But I think Lyn's chances are decent conidering her attention from Sakurai and her popularity, plus she represents a different generation, in between Marth and Ike, kind of helping to fill in the generation gap.

They probably aren't that great due to the fact that her game is in the past now. It also sold fairly poorly if I recall. In addition, its possible that the generation gap doesn't mean all too much, given the status of Pokemon, and LoZ, which seem to focus on either the very old, or the most recent thing, rather than what's inbetween.

 

[john!]

I'll list my predictions just so I can say told ya so if I'm close.

Starting characters:

- Mario
- Peach
- Bowser
- Wario
- Donkey Kong
- Diddy Kong
- Link
- Zelda/Sheik
- Ganondorf
- Samus/Zamus
- Yoshi
- Kirby
- King Dedede
- Fox
- Falco
- Pikachu
- Pokemon Trainer (Chikorita, Quilava, Feraligatr)
- Ness
- Lucas
- Captain Douglas Jay Falcon
- Marth
- Olimar
- Sonic
- Snake
- R.O.B.

Unlockable characters:

- Luigi
- Paper Mario (or a character from the next Mario)
- Geno (Dunno why he's so popular...)
- King K. Rool
- Wolf Link + Midna (or a character from the next Zelda)
- Tingle
- Ridley
- Meta Knight
- Krystal
- Wolf
- Jigglypuff
- Darkrai (Darkrai Combo?) or a 5th gen
- Porky Minch
- Black Shadow
- Ike
- Mr. Game & Watch
- Starfy/Stafy
- Mega Man
- Isaac
- Bomberman
- Little Mac
- Banjo-Kazooie
- Tom Nook

 

[Arcadenik]

Wizzerd, seriously, the "Toad is generic" argument is weak. Yoshi is generic, too.

The Yoshi is playable in:
- Super Mario World (only in the Yoshi's Island 2 level)
- Yoshi's Safari
- Mario & Wario
- Yoshi Topsy-Turvy
- Super Mario 64 DS
- spin-off games

Generic Yoshis are playable in:
- Super Mario World
- Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island
- Yoshi's Story
- Super Mario Sunshine
- Yoshi Touch & Go
- Yoshi's Island DS (the Yoshi is born at the end)
- New Super Mario Bros. Wii
- Super Mario Galaxy 2
- spin-off games

The Toad is playable in:
- Super Mario Bros. 2
- Wario's Woods
- Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga (only at the very beginning)
- spin-off games

Generic Toads are playable in:
- New Super Mario Bros. Wii
- spin-off games

Also, adding Toad is not the same as adding Goomba. Yoshis and Toads are the only generic species playable outside of spin-off games. Goombas, Koopas, Shy Guys, Boos, and all the other generic enemies are never playable outside of spin-off games. That makes Yoshis and Toads the most important generic species in the Mario series. And besides, Goomba cannot fight as a viable Smash fighter without arms anyway.

 

[Big-Cat]

It can be argued that Paper Mario is at equal footing with Toad, although Paper Mario seems to be the more popular choice.

Maybe on this board, but I would look around more to get a better idea of this.

 

[Wizzerd]

Wizzerd, seriously, the "Toad is generic" argument is weak. Yoshi is generic, too.

The Yoshi is playable in:
- Super Mario World (only in the Yoshi's Island 2 level)
- Yoshi's Safari
- Mario & Wario
- Yoshi Topsy-Turvy
- Super Mario 64 DS
- spin-off games

Generic Yoshis are playable in:
- Super Mario World
- Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island
- Yoshi's Story
- Super Mario Sunshine
- Yoshi Touch & Go
- Yoshi's Island DS (the Yoshi is born at the end)
- New Super Mario Bros. Wii
- Super Mario Galaxy 2
- spin-off games

The Toad is playable in:
- Super Mario Bros. 2
- Wario's Woods
- Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga (only at the very beginning)
- spin-off games

Generic Toads are playable in:
- New Super Mario Bros. Wii
- spin-off games

Notice that all of the roles of "The Toad" are either outdated or spinoffs. If spinoffs counted for anything Waluigi would have been in Brawl. "The Yoshi," however, has plenty of recent roles. Also, Yoshis have their own series, and one large enough that it deserves a character- how else are the Yoshi games going to be given a character?

Also, adding Toad is not the same as adding Goomba. Yoshis and Toads are the only generic species playable outside of spin-off games. Goombas, Koopas, Shy Guys, Boos, and all the other generic enemies are never playable outside of spin-off games. That makes Yoshis and Toads the most important generic species in the Mario series. And besides, Goomba cannot fight as a viable Smash fighter without arms anyway.

My point was that it would be like adding a completely generic enemy, not that Goombas have any chance at all. And don't be so close-minded, Goombas can easily fight with head attacks, kicks, lunges, Paragoomba wings, the Kuribo's Shoe, etc.

EDIT: john9blue, that list looks very reasonable, but my suggestions would be:
-Don't bet on PT getting new Pokemon.
-Bowser Jr. is probably going to get in as a Mario character before Paper Mario does. They both can get in, but I would suggest not having Paper Mario without Bowser Jr.
-Geno is... a one-game character who isn't the main character and requires third party rights. I wouldn't have him.
-Tingle is probably enough for new Zelda characters, so I'd bring back Toon Link instead of a new Zelda character.
-If you're going to add Krystal, I would reccomend cutting Wolf so that SF doesn't have four characters.
-If there's no fifth gen, we'll probably get Mewtwo back (and where's Lucario?).
-Mother getting another character is very doubtful, and it would probably be somebody from Mother 3 anyway.
-Megaman, Bomberman and Banjo-Kazooie... Megaman is gold, but Bomberman and Banjo-Kazooie haven't had a notable game for a while. If you add a third party beyond Megaman, Simon Belmont seems like the best option, or maybe Ryu.
Otherwise, looks very good.