[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

[OmegaXXII]

Jigglypuff doesn't deserve to return, but it will solely due to being one of the original 12. Pokemon Trainer won't get new Pokemon due to none of the other starters being as iconic as the originals, and more importantly the fact that new movesets would have to be made for them.

While I don't care much for talking about a smash 4 (because it's probably a long ways off) I gotta agree with this guy on the Jigglypuff thing. There is no reason that Jiggs needs to come back. Sure she's one of the original 12 and has been there since the beginning. But that's it. Other than that there is no reason why she should be in. She isn't really that popular anymore, she's not important to the series in any way, she doesn't represent a certain generation...really she's just a normal Pokemon who happened to be popular when smash64 came out. Compare that to the other Pokemon characters.

I really think Jiggly should be taken out. I know that he/she was there from the beginning but there was really no reason for "it" to be in the game in the first place, it was only due to Pokemons immense popularity at that time. Also the Pokemon Trainer will have three new Pokemon, but I wish it would be a Pokemon from three different generations just so Blaziken could get in

*looks in shock*

whoa! this may be the first time I actually see a group of people that actually agree with me on Jiggs removal, this is simply outstanding to see. and like you all said she is part of the "original 12" so her chances of being cut are probalby slim, but let's face it, she no longer as popular as she once was, she should be replaced by Mewtwo instead.

 

[Igneous42]

Ya 8-10 years ago......in this current generation there is no need for "it", that's all i'm saying. When's the last time Jigglypuff was one of the characters you met in a wifi match or seen in a movie(not that I watch the movies), there is no need for the pink fluffball. I mean just look at how often Jiggly is played in this game. I honestly have never played a Jiggly main on Wifi and you hardly ever see them in tournaments. Make her an assist trophy and leave it at that.

Pretty much what he said. I think only one of the things you mentioned was relevant to things that happened withing the last 5 years. Those reason are why she was an obvious choice for Smash64 and Melee, but they don't really support her for newer things.

My opinion is that they change Pokemon trainers Pokemon to represent multiple gens and she become a part of his moveset. Or even add a second Pokemon trainer that she is part of his/her moveset. She'd lose one move, but really in both Melee and Brawl you can break her upB so fast that it's rarely used.

 

[BraveDave88]

My only need would be Mega Man. If he isn't in the next Smash, my heart will break inside of me and there will be wailing in the streets. :-/

Otherwise, I'd love a more advanced Stage Builder that actually allows for real personalization of stages, custom music importing would be nice as well.

 

[MasterWarlord]

Removing Rest from Jigglypuff would be removing her signature attack in Smash. Removing Sing from Jigglypuff would be removing her signature attack in Pokemon. If you're going to get rid of one of her attacks, get rid of the completely generic B<, which is a simple punch that should just be one of her tilts IMO. Specials are meant for original moves, not generic punches. The only thing that makes it remotely unique is it can be used for recovery if spammed, but even then it's not like she needs better recovery.

I personally think it was ridiculous Mewtwo wasn't in Brawl, but that doesn't thing I mean Jigglypuff should be removed. I would include Mewtwo over Jigglypuff any day though, but Jigglypuff is iconic in Smash. Really, she's about as likely to leave as one of the retro characters. So long as Jigglypuff, Shiek, Falco and the retro characters remain popular in Smash, they'll stay, regardless of their status outside Smash. Why do you think Mewtwo was kicked? Bottom tier, while Shiek and Falco were top while Jiggs was high.

 

[-Mars-]

Removing Rest from Jigglypuff would be removing her signature attack in Smash. Removing Sing from Jigglypuff would be removing her signature attack in Pokemon. If you're going to get rid of one of her attacks, get rid of the completely generic B<, which is a simple punch that should just be one of her tilts IMO. Specials are meant for original moves, not generic punches. The only thing that makes it remotely unique is it can be used for recovery if spammed, but even then it's not like she needs better recovery.

I personally think it was ridiculous Mewtwo wasn't in Brawl, but that doesn't thing I mean Jigglypuff should be removed. I would include Mewtwo over Jigglypuff any day though, but Jigglypuff is iconic in Smash. Really, she's about as likely to leave as one of the retro characters. So long as Jigglypuff, Shiek, Falco and the retro characters remain popular in Smash, they'll stay, regardless of their status outside Smash. Why do you think Mewtwo was kicked? Bottom tier, while Shiek and Falco were top while Jiggs was high.

In case you haven't noticed Jigglypuff is low tier now just like Mewtwo was, and she is nowhere near popular. Your reasoning for keeping Jigglypuff in makes no sense at all.

 

[Chief Mendez]

With every game we've gotten new Legendaries but other than Mew and Mewtwo none have been described as the "ultimate" Pokemon.

lolwut?

If you're going to get rid of one of her attacks, get rid of the completely generic B<, which is a simple punch that should just be one of her tilts IMO.

You did not just put Pound--MOTHERLOVING POUND--on the same level as a tilt. That did not just happen. -.-

Alright, stupid, tired discussion, but--yeah, if they were to chuck out a Pokemon, it might be Jiggs. It won't be PT or Pikachu. It'll probably be Lucario though, if indeed any of them get cut. But it's not going to be Jigglypuff. Honestly, why do people dislike her so much? She's Jigglypuff. We've been enjoying her eternally-underestimated moves since 1999, and you all want to get rid of her because she's...what? Not used to promote the games anymore? No sh*t, she's not: the most recent generation is, which she's clearly not a part of. Because she's not important in the games? Neither are any other Pokemon.

I just don't understand the logic here.

SHE'S MOTHERF*CKING JIGGLYPUFF.

I rest my case.

I wouldn't mind Meowth being in SSB4....but thats just me.

And me! I was pulling for Mewoth to get a spot in Brawl, but alas and alack, he was once again stuffed into an item. And I'd still support him for SSB4, if not for that Pokeball thing...

 

[Illusive]

Pokemon Trainer shouldn't mix gens. That's a given.

Mudkip/Grovyle/Blaziken makes the most sense to me, because grovyle is the only 2nd stage pokemon that is cooler (from A LOT of empirical evidence) than its fully evolved equivalent, mudkip has a fad behind him, and Blaziken is quite popular if I remember correctly.

On another pokemon note, goldeen should become extremely powerful if it lands in water. Something like it swims around, then jumps out while performing "horn drill" which is a near one hit ko if it connects.

 

[Chief Mendez]

On another pokemon note, goldeen should become extremely powerful if it lands in water. Something like it swims around, then jumps out while performing "horn drill" which is a near one hit ko if it connects.

This is actually THE BEST IDEA EVER a really good idea...though it would mean more than just one stage would have to have water. And even then, standing/slow moving water, as opposed to the swift currents of the Great Sea.

 

[Illusive]

Not really. It's more an easter egg than anything else, so even if it lands in the brief water sections of the summit and delfino plaza, that's enough. Plus don't forget about all the new stages (which there should be at least 40 IMHO). It's just the incorporation of something I've been told should have been in since the first game.

 

[flyinfilipino]

Alright, stupid, tired discussion, but--yeah, if they were to chuck out a Pokemon, it might be Jiggs. It won't be PT or Pikachu. It'll probably be Lucario though, if indeed any of them get cut. But it's not going to be Jigglypuff. Honestly, why do people dislike her so much? She's Jigglypuff. We've been enjoying her eternally-underestimated moves since 1999, and you all want to get rid of her because she's...what? Not used to promote the games anymore? No sh*t, she's not: the most recent generation is, which she's clearly not a part of. Because she's not important in the games? Neither are any other Pokemon.

I just don't understand the logic here.

I agree with Chief. And MasterWarlord is right, Jigglypuff's already iconic in Smash; she's probably sticking around, like Falco and Sheik.

And personally, I wouldn't be surprised if Pokemon Trainer or Lucario got cut, and if Mewtwo didn't return.

Speaking of the latter, he hasn't gotten any more popular either, and isn't all that "important to the series".

 

[GreenKirby]

Pokemon Trainer shouldn't mix gens. That's a given.

Why not?

Despite being based on Red, PT really should have no certain generation only Pokemon.

 

[flyinfilipino]

Why not?

Despite being based on Red, PT really should have no certain generation only Pokemon.

Pokemon Trainer's design is specifically based on the third-gen FireRed and LeafGreen remakes. They could make him/her more generic, however.

 

[gantrain05]

Pokemon Trainer's design is specifically based on the third-gen FireRed and LeafGreen remakes. They could make him/her more generic, however.

i think he's more based on the 1st gen red/blue. even has the same clothes.

 

[SirKibble]

Jiggs stays. And you can't take Pound from her. It's easily her most useful Special. If they're gonna take out a Pokemon, it had better be Lucario. And that's coming from someone who uses the guy a lot and would really love to have him stay.

Spoiler

But...

Leave out Mewtwo. He's lame... Siriusly... "Look, I'm Mewtwo, I'm so cool with my claws spikes huge muscles wings cool theme song mom symmetrical bumps on my head."

Yeah, Mewtwo has pretty much nothing to make him cool, so that argument sucks.

 

[gantrain05]

Jiggs stays. And you can't take Pound from her. It's easily her most useful Special. If they're gonna take out a Pokemon, it had better be Lucario. And that's coming from someone who uses the guy a lot and would really love to have him stay.

But...

Leave out Mewtwo. He's lame... Siriusly... "Look, I'm Mewtwo, I'm so cool with my clawsspikeshuge muscleswingscool theme songmom symmetrical bumps on my head."

Yeah, Mewtwo has pretty much nothing to make him cool, so that argument sucks.

are you serious? mewtwo deserves to be in over any other new pokemon or even lucario, and he's way cooler than any other pokemon with his psychic powers and his will to rule the entire freakin world, evil is always cool, thats why i play ganondorf, even tho he's sucktastic.

 

[MasterWarlord]

Mewtwo has bad assery and was the first overpowered Pokemon, and is an actual character.

About cutting Lucario or Pokemon Trainer, I just simply don't think you people understand. Pokemon WILL have five characters in SSB4. There's no excuse why it shouldn't. The first three are obvious returners, the fourth is the 5th gen rep, the fifth is a battle between Mewtwo and Lucario.

 

[SirKibble]

are you serious?

Yes.

mewtwo deserves to be in over any other new pokemon or even lucario

First, I'll assume you meant to add "after Pikachu" to that, because no Pokemon deserves a place more than Pika. Anyway... No. Mewtwo is old and not cool anymore. He was cool... Pretty much only for the first generation, when he was the only ultimate Pokemon.

and he's way cooler than any other pokemon with his psychic powers

Yeah, that's pretty unique.

and his will to rule the entire freakin world

Woohoo. 'Cause we don't have anybody else in Smash who wants to do that. Besides, that's movie-based, and aren't we against that?

evil is always cool, thats why i play ganondorf, even tho he's sucktastic.

So you're saying we should include every villain ever? They're all evil. All right, I'll assume you don't want that, and I'll make another point. Smash is, for the most part, about the heroes, not the villains. Notice that SSB64 had NO villains or evil characters. And by now, we've still only got a handful, and they're basically the HUGE ones.

 

[gantrain05]

kibble, your anti-mewtwoism is going to get you killed someday, just face it, mewtwo deserves a spot, because honestly, every gen of pokemon besides the first was freakin lame, even nintendo realizes that, thats why they have FIVE first gen pokemon in brawl and only one newcomer. mewtwo>lucario anyday.

 

[Chief Mendez]

Not really. It's more an easter egg than anything else, so even if it lands in the brief water sections of the summit and delfino plaza, that's enough. Plus don't forget about all the new stages (which there should be at least 40 IMHO). It's just the incorporation of something I've been told should have been in since the first game.

Yeah, I know, but it's still a good idea. Little insights like that are what make big projects like this good.

Pokemon WILL have five characters in SSB4.

But...they've already got six.

even nintendo realizes that, thats why they have FIVE first gen pokemon in brawl and only one newcomer.

Somehow I doubt Smash Bros. is an accurate meter of how much stock Nintendo puts in any given character.

I mean, did you all catch that fifty-hour R.O.B. RPG on DS last year? Man, that guy is just tearing it up in popularity lately, amirite?

 

[Lord Viper]

Myrrh from Fire Emblem The Sacred Stones for AT.

She can turn into a dragon and burn all her foes. X)

 

[SirKibble]

kibble, your anti-mewtwoism is going to get you killed someday

Then I'll die a martyr.

just face it, mewtwo deserves a spot

Yeah, about as much as Smoochum.

because honestly, every gen of pokemon besides the first was freakin lame

I'm quite a fan of all the games, actually. The first was the best, but by no means are the others lame.

Spoiler

Dissin' the games that gave me my Lanturn, Flygon and [insert 4th gen after I get a chance to get further into Diamond] isn't cool, man.

even nintendo realizes that, thats why they have FIVE first gen pokemon in brawl and only one newcomer. mewtwo>lucario anyday.

The first generation are the most iconic, for sure. Pika and Jiggs are pretty much mascot characters, Pokemon Trainer is your actual character, accompanied by the ever-familiar starters that every one of us who's been with Pokemon from the beginning grew close to in one way or another, and then there's the last spot, filled by a new Pokemon because they wanted to advertise the latest installment. Mewtwo is old news. He's not the all-powerful legendary Pokemon anymore. There are like, a bazillion all-powerful legendary Pokemon now. He doesn't really have anything that makes him stand out anymore.

Why do people want him back, anyway? What makes him so cool? I really fail to understand what's so enticing about this guy...

 

[Chief Mendez]

Dissin' the games that gave me my Lanturn, Flygon and Toxicroak isn't cool, man.

Yeah, seriously. A lot of people will say that Ninty's running out of ideas and making bad Pokemon now, but...

That's just not true. Sure, there may be a few too many Legendaries now, but aside from that, I generally feel that each generation's been better than the last.

Also, whoever that was on the last page: Myrrh was a generic character from a lame game, and just showing up and breathing fire would be boring...unless it was somebody else. Like, if they stuffed Medeus into an AT Capsule.

That would be the sh*t.

 

[SirKibble]

Yeah, seriously. A lot of people will say that Ninty's running out of ideas and making bad Pokemon now, but...

That's just not true. Sure, there may be a few too many Legendaries now, but aside from that, I generally feel that each generation's been better than the last.

I whole-heartedly agree.

I'll take your word for it on Toxicroak. But I don't think any Pokemon will ever outdo Lanturn for me. I'm a big fan of both Water and Electric Pokemon, so when I found out there was a fusion Pokemon in Gold/Silver, it became my favorite Pokemon, indefinitely.

 

[kuro06]

I wanna know why people keep beliving that mewtwo is this "badass"? I remember how lame he was after the movie. after he turned ash to stone everyone started to cry and go emo. Mewtwo realize what he did was wrong, ash turned back to normal, mew2 and the clones leave. Ash says "Where are you going?" and Mew2 says "To follow my heart"...so yeah that's it. There goes the "badass" everyone keeps saying mew2 was. I don't mind him coming back but..he's NOT this evil tough guy people keep talking about.

 

[gantrain05]

yeah, well if you took mewtwos stats from the red/blue games, he would still wtfpwn nearly every legendary that exists, not to mention like as soon as pokemon tourneys were around they had to ban mewtwo because he could so easily 1 hit K.O nearly every other pokemon, he's way more badass than most of the new legendaries, that look really more like ******** digimon than pokemon, i mean cmon wtf palkia and dialga don't even look like pokemon.

 

[SirKibble]

And yet he sucked balls in Melee...

 

[gantrain05]

And yet he sucked balls in Melee...

well, maybe cuz you sucked balls with him, Taj would like to have a word with you.

 

[SirKibble]

Anecdotal evidence is not your friend. Sorry. I did suck balls with him, as did everyone I know. And I think most people will echo that.

 

[Chief Mendez]

well, maybe cuz you sucked balls with him, Taj would like to have a word with you.

Spoiler

10notthattajs

 

[MasterWarlord]

Mewtwo sucking balls in Melee is Sakurai's idiotic fault, not the character's. Shiek and Falco came back solely due to being popular in Smash due to being top tier. Do you really think a clone (Falco) or a transformation (Shiek) deserved to come back over an original moveset? That's blasphemey right there. This is why we are outraged. Don't you dare pin the bottom tier as a negative against Mewtwo.

Mewtwo has an ACTUAL CHARACTER. He's not a generic species like every other Pokemon and not a mindless beast like the other legendaries.

 

[SirKibble]

I only pulled the bottom tier card because of all the Mewtwo being banned because of OHKOs and demonically high stats in Pokemon talk. That's hardly an argument for him to be in, because obviously, he can still suck in a different game.

And maybe it's just me, but I feel like every Pokemon's got character and personality, at least to some extent. Any edge Mewtwo has is because of Pokemon: The First Movie, and it's not a great edge either, IMO.

 

[gantrain05]

I only pulled the bottom tier card because of all the Mewtwo being banned because of OHKOs and demonically high stats in Pokemon talk. That's hardly an argument for him to be in, because obviously, he can still suck in a different game.

And maybe it's just me, but I feel like every Pokemon's got character and personality, at least to some extent. Any edge Mewtwo has is because of Pokemon: The First Movie, and it's not a great edge either, IMO.

even if his edge was because of his movie, its still easily the best pokemon movie out there.

 

[kuro06]

Mewtwo sucking balls in Melee is Sakurai's idiotic fault, not the character's. Shiek and Falco came back solely due to being popular in Smash due to being top tier. Do you really think a clone (Falco) or a transformation (Shiek) deserved to come back over an original moveset? That's blasphemey right there. This is why we are outraged. Don't you dare pin the bottom tier as a negative against Mewtwo.

Mewtwo has an ACTUAL CHARACTER. He's not a generic species like every other Pokemon and not a mindless beast like the other legendaries.

He only really had an character in the movie (which sucked looking back at now). In the games none of the pokemon really had a personality whatsoever. Falco being a clone was Sakurai's fault as well. He could have gave Falco a orginal moveset. Starfox needed at least one or so extra rep and Falco was around since the series started so that's a good reason why he was added. Shiek was in OoT which people proclaim several times to be the greatest game of all time. Beside that Shiek is a popular character both out and in the game. So of course she stayed.

When melee was made Gen2 was out and Mewtwo was still popular but that was over seven years ago and his popularity dropped. Although I didn't want him to be cut I wanted him to be improved but stuff happens. The next game should have at least keep a pokemon for each generation.

 

[MasterWarlord]

2nd gen will likely never get a playable character, and at this rate 3rd gen is also probable. I do agree that if another trainer is introduced/replaces the current one though, it should be the 3rd gen one. Mudkip/Grovyle/Blaziken makes too much sense.

Falco and Shiek DID NOT deserve to be in Melee before Wario, Diddy, Dedede and Meta Knight. Don't even get me started on Ridley and K. Rool. Starfox wasn't in dire need of a second rep in Melee, it just happened to be an easy clone. Falco would've never been in Smash if he wern't an easy to make clone, as Falco's popularity took a nose dive in favor of Wolf and Krystal when Brawl rolled around.

 

[Chief Mendez]

Mewtwo has an ACTUAL CHARACTER. He's not a generic species like every other Pokemon and not a mindless beast like the other legendaries.

No, Mewtwo's just one of the few that talk. So does Lucario, but there's more than one of them (I think).

But Deoxys, Darkrai, Jirachi, and--O SNAP SLOWKING. They're all "actual characters", even if some of them don't talk.

Do you really think a clone (Falco) or a transformation (Shiek) deserved to come back over an original moveset?

Sheik is an original moveset.

its still easily the best pokemon movie out there.

Destiny Deoxys beats it, just because of Munchlax and the Hot Dog Vendor.

 

[MasterWarlord]

Shiek is an original moveset, but she's sharing the slot with Zelda. Original character > Original transformation. Just thought I'd clarify that.

Slowking has nothing memorable other then his line "I could use pants.". Yes, legendaries that don't talk don't have any real "character", they're mindless beasts. Even if you count Lugia or Jirachi, at least Mewtwo has an interesting back story that adds to the bad assery. Giovanni is easily the most bad-*** human character in Pokemon, breaking out from him was one of the few good things to watch in that horrendous anime.

Bring back team rocket **** it! In games and in anime. I'd become interested in the actual bloody anime if they brought back Team Rocket, and buy the new game for more then just the new Pokemon.

 

[flyinfilipino]

Mewtwo sucking balls in Melee is Sakurai's idiotic fault, not the character's. Shiek and Falco came back solely due to being popular in Smash due to being top tier. Do you really think a clone (Falco) or a transformation (Shiek) deserved to come back over an original moveset? That's blasphemey right there. This is why we are outraged. Don't you dare pin the bottom tier as a negative against Mewtwo.

Mewtwo has an ACTUAL CHARACTER. He's not a generic species like every other Pokemon and not a mindless beast like the other legendaries.

I thought we didn't approve of anime/movies being factors in Smash?

Spoiler

10DONTYOUDARES

 

[MasterWarlord]

I'd prefer if anime were made irrelevant just due to how I despise it and Sakurai's rules, but surprisingly it IS viable. Change the voice acting to Japanese in Melee. Mewtwo talks. Also, there's no way Jigglypuff or Lucario would of got in if the anime were ignored.

Anime is an irrelevant argument for smash. . .EXCEPT the Pokemon anime.

 

[flyinfilipino]

I'd prefer if anime were made irrelevant just due to how I despise it and Sakurai's rules, but surprisingly it IS viable. Change the voice acting to Japanese in Melee. Mewtwo talks. Also, there's no way Jigglypuff or Lucario would of got in if the anime were ignored.

Anime is an irrelevant argument for smash. . .EXCEPT the Pokemon anime.

The anime can be referenced as a reason for popularity, but you can't really say that the Pikachu/Jigglypuff/Mewtwo/Lucario in Smash are the ones from the anime/movie. Mewtwo having a 'character' is really a bad reason.

Spoiler

Aren't you going a bit back and forth on the Lucario being in due to a movie/being an obvious 4th gen representative?

 

[MasterWarlord]

The anime can be referenced as a reason for popularity, but you can't really say that the Pikachu/Jigglypuff/Mewtwo/Lucario in Smash are the ones from the anime/movie. Mewtwo having a 'character' is really a bad reason.

Spoiler

Aren't you going a bit back and forth on the Lucario being in due to a movie/being an obvious 4th gen representative?

Lucario is in due to being the mascot of 4th gen, and he became the mascot through that movie, gamefreak stamping him everywhere.

But really, why are we arguing about why Mewtwo is bad *** and such? Pikachu and Jiggs aren't going anywhere, and there will of course be the 5th gen rep. The original starters are the most popular and Sakurai would be dropping 3 movesets if he cut the trainer, having to make 3 more for another, so the trainer won't go anywhere either.

That leaves one spot open. Don't give me the crap about Pokemon having six characters in brawl/seven in this SSB4, I'm talking about character select screen slots. People say Brawl has 35 characters, not 39. Pokemon having the same slots as it had in Brawl would be ant outrage. The only valid candidates to fill this slot are Lucario and Mewtwo, and they'll have a battle to the death to see who gets in.

Lucario's popularity will of dwindeld by the time SSB4 comes around due to a new gen being out, Mewtwo's will of stayed in tact due to nothing happening to him that already hasn't. This will put the two Pokemon on more even footing. Unless Mario gets two newcomers, I don't see both Mewtwo and Lucario being in the same game.