Official PAL Tier List (Melee)

[C.R.Z]

looks good

 

[theartistformerlyknownaswavedash]

pichu ahead of mewtwo? but... HOW!? pichu takes damage from its own attacks!!

 

[cpahanso]

link should be higher. He usually beats marth, peach and shiek if equally skilled.

 

[j3ly]

other then that...swap mario and link, you know im right ^^

if u still think this ima slap you

 

[Aldwyn McCloud]

Ain't this a little bit outdated? It'd be about time to re-do it from scratch.

 

[Zephynazo]

This is way to outdated, u lazy mods, get a grip of yourselfes and edit this ****!

Like seriosuly!

 

[VA]

Ain't this a little bit outdated? It'd be about time to re-do it from scratch.

I said this a year ago but mods and stuff are like wah wah it's too much effort, who cares if it's changed in america cos europe is europe etc etc.

It's totally outdated + I want to be involved if it's being redone.

 

[Marc]

I can redo it in a similar way to the previous one, which basically entails giving every smash region a certain amount of spots and a representative to collect people.

 

[Zephynazo]

Never mind this post! >.<

 

[Tamoo]

I can redo it in a similar way to the previous one, which basically entails giving every smash region a certain amount of spots and a representative to collect people.

I think that would be a good move, although I personally don't care much for tiers, it's a useful resource for new ppl

 

[VA]

I can redo it in a similar way to the previous one, which basically entails giving every smash region a certain amount of spots and a representative to collect people.

Why now? When I said this a while ago you were like no it's too hard. But lol, whatever, hopefully I get a spot?

 

[J03]

imo it should just be the european top 10 that decide the list. after all theyre the most enlightened players obviously!

 

[Zephynazo]

Yes that is true... Armada is nr.1 in Europe, and he says Puff should be banned

The new tier list should not be based on the top 10 in europe.

 

[Yeniths]

I can redo it in a similar way to the previous one, which basically entails giving every smash region a certain amount of spots and a representative to collect people.

This would actually be great.

 

[Retroking2000]

marth for top tier ^^

 

[J03]

yeniths: why would it be great? the best and most eduacated players are the top 10. say if the UK got a position itd just be the UK no:1 (fuzzys) opinion not the countries opinion and fuzzy isnt one the people i would like deciding the tier list. the same applies to every country given a place who isnt the best to decide.

i could understand if you where trying to eliminate country bias, such as lots of falco players in france and lots of sheik players in holland, which i guess COULD alter their posistion on the tier list but Its not like its only one country who would be deciding anyway as the european top 10 encompasses at least 4 countries.

off the top of my head i would consider the contenders for top 10 to be:

Armada
Amsah
Adam
Zgetto
Calle W
Strawhat
Makenshi
Baxon
Aldywn
Over
Remen
Polion
Faab
Ice
...possibly fuzzy lol.

out of those players who in the top tier isnt represented?

in summary i am a genius and what i saw is unflawed and impecible.

Hell you could write a tier list by tallying the mains of those guys lol.

 

[grayfox]

The best players aren't nessesarily the players who know the most about the metagame, and the countrys character choice have to be taken into consideration, just having the top 10 would be a terrible idea. Consistant high placings, experience and previous showings of insight would have to be shown.

 

[Tero.]

Guys relax, I got this. Just wait till my pc is working again.

 

[Zephynazo]

Half of that list is the dutchie gang...

Just listen to what Grayfox said, that is true.

 

[J03]

rofl what ryan said sounds like complete ********, what can you expect from an arsenal fan though eh?

It sounds like some people want to be heard so badly that regardless of how much they understand, they dillude themselves to believe that they know best or that their input is better then people who clearly know more.

I trust tero however, i also dont care enough rofl.

 

[Zephynazo]

I don't even want to be heard, and i don't give a **** about the tier list tbh, but for some ppl it matters a bit, and would be nice to have atleast or more "correct" tier list than what is shown now. That is all.

I never even asked or said anything about me being a participant when decided the new tier list, unlike VA who def wants to be in it.

I don't know about Va, but if he has good experience and knowledge with the game, i think he should be a member to decide the outcome of the new tier list.

The "top 10 knows best" rule doesn't apply here, sorry.

 

[grayfox]

The UK participant should be Robby easily.

 

[VA]

Thank you Ryan ^_^

 

[Marc]

Why now? When I said this a while ago you were like no it's too hard. But lol, whatever, hopefully I get a spot?

I was really busy at the time, the need was less urgent, I was wondering if someone else would step up and it is still a hassle.

I don't feel comfortable dictating who should be voting for each country. I want a healthy mix of top players and debaters, but I do think every single voter should have considerable tournament experience. First order of business should be deciding how many voters each country gets and who is going to decide for each country, those people will take up 1 of the voting spots (unless they don't want to, of course).

My suggestion:

Austria (1 - ???)
France (4 - Slhoka)
Germany (3 - .Tero)
Italy (1 - ???)
Spain (3 - ???)
Sweden (4 - ???)
The Netherlands (5 - Marc)
The United Kingdom (3 - Fuzzyness)

Numbers based on size of the scene and international presence, along with the number of top players. Did I miss a country? Do we need more voters? Does anyone disagree with the representatives? Suggestions for the question marks? Whatever the case, I think the proportions should be something like this.

 

[Mew2King]

Jiggs is by far the best character in PAL. There are just no really good Jiggs in Europe

 

[VA]

You've never competed in Europe/PAL.

Not to mention your extreme tournament experience bias.

 

[Marc]

The man has a point though... I'd be upset not seeing Jigglypuff up there, considering she is relatively better over here (despite our lack of good mains). Voters will need to have that kind of awareness.

 

[Zephynazo]

But no way she is best.

Fox and Sheik is better, def.

Marth and Falco also.

She is prolly equal with peach, but better than CF.

 

[VA]

The man has a point though... I'd be upset not seeing Jigglypuff up there, considering she is relatively better over here (despite our lack of good mains). Voters will need to have that kind of awareness.

I dunno, I think yeah she's more viable. But it doesn't make sense to just place her high when we don't have anyone representing/proving this. Peach is obviously more viable in PAL but has Armada to back her up.

 

[Marc]

Consider this:
-Jigglypuff dominates in NTSC to the point where she is now considered top... in a version where most other top tiers are significantly better than they are in PAL.
-Both Amsah and Armada (our best players) have lost to Jigglypuff, while Amsah even was in a better position than he'd be in PAL. It has very much been proven that Jigglypuff is viable in interaction with Europe.

Our tier list doesn't represent Europe, it represents the PAL version of the game. We don't have high level representation for characters like Ice Climbers, DK and Pikachu either, but we can still observe what they are capable of.

 

[strawhats]

Jiggs is by far the best character in PAL. There are just no really good Jiggs in Europe

mango'll have to show PAL whats up when he goes to Europe.

 

[NeutralDamage]

I support this, good idea =).

 

[Nihonjin]

Jiggs is by far the best character in PAL. There are just no really good Jiggs in Europe

I wouldn't say "by far", but I'm not going to argue she's not.

 

[VA]

Consider this:
-Jigglypuff dominates in NTSC to the point where she is now considered top... in a version where most other top tiers are significantly better than they are in PAL.
-Both Amsah and Armada (our best players) have lost to Jigglypuff, while Amsah even was in a better position than he'd be in PAL. It has very much been proven that Jigglypuff is viable in interaction with Europe.

Our tier list doesn't represent Europe, it represents the PAL version of the game. We don't have high level representation for characters like Ice Climbers, DK and Pikachu either, but we can still observe what they are capable of.

I agree but this raises an issue. We lack jiggz meta game experience, Amsah may have lost to her but it's his first time playing in tournament against the character at that level. Armada did pretty **** well against her. The thing is at their level I think it's not about the character so much as the player. Armada had Mango on the ropes but he dropped it, not due to jigglypuff but due to Mango.

I think Jiggz is a great character and is much higher than we place her, but I don't think it works to just place her at the top because of Mango and Hbox. We don't know what would happen if we had our own versions of them and Armada and Amsah had the chance to devise better tactics.

 

[Zephynazo]

ppl think jiggs is so good it's becoming ridiculous.

Marc, Amsah and some other euro's got beaten (bad?) by Jiggz at pound and now they instantly think she is top-tier (best in the game?) in the PAL version.

Look, as VA said, it is not really just Puff, it is also the player controlling the character.

IMO: Marth, Sheik, Fox and Falco is better than jigg.

Peach is prolly equal with jiggs.

CF is worse than jiggs.

Keep in mind that this is my opinion.

 

[VA]

I dunno but m2k has such a biased opinion of characters. If he loses to them he thinks he's losing on the basis of character ability, not accounting for his own nerves causing him to lose etc.

I think if m2k was stonger mentally he would be pwning with Marth and Fox still. Mango, Hbox, Armada and Amsah are all mentally stronger than m2k. Armada and Amsah lack jiggz experience, M2k knows the match up, he knows what to do. When his mind falls and you see him get mad is when you see him lose, but if he was able to stay stronger I believe he could take out any Jigglypuff.

But w/evs I see her strengths.

 

[stelzig]

I don't know if i'd agree with saying that because you're convinced you didn't lose because your opponent is doing better is a weakness (say, if it was the belief that it was 100% due to the stage he lost then it would definetly be a strength). I don't think m2k losses confidence when playing against jiggs if it isn't against those players he knows usually beat him with her. His fear is probably link more to the players - he just concludes it's because of their characters. The only way that is really a weakness is that you probably won't think you can improve/work on the matchup much either.
That and he's just as fast at convincing himself that he is gonna lose when he has lost (weakness) as he is he's gonna win when he hasn't (strength).

 

[Fuzzyness]

I dont think CF is worse than jiggz, its just the player lol

in terms of character ability and speed >_> speed is so important in smash

tho tbh I used fox against jiggz due to lack of confidence, when jiggz has got empty jumps around falcon the matchup becomes so nasty lol

 

[CaptainEvilStomper9]

You've never competed in Europe/PAL.

Not to mention your extreme tournament experience bias.

Doesn't Armada also think Jiggs is the best? its not just one top players opinion.

 

[VA]

Yeah well I'm relating this to the fact that the top European players are likely to think this. They can't think of tactics to beat her due to a lack of tournament experience against her. If we had a Euro Mango or Hbox who knows what strategies armada and amsah would come up with. Right now they play with what they know and clearly it's not working, but I don't believe this is because she's undeniabley the best, more that Mango and Hbox are exceptionally difficult to beat with her in current meta game. If that makes her top tier then so be it. I think it would be a mistake to put her at the top of the tier list as by the end of 2010 she'll be defeated.

Just a side note, m2k thought marth was the best at one point, m2k recently thought sheik was the best. M2k loses to jiggz he suddenly thinks she is the best. M2k loses to Diddy and suddenly Diddy is the best in Brawl, not just a MK counter :/

Bias is heavily involved in the opinions of the top players xD