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Official PAL Tier List (Melee)
- Thread starter Marc
- Start date
Retroking2000
Smash Master
no one plays jiggs that much in europe .
because players have the tendancy to make fun out of other players when they play those types of character
'I' being one of them
good day sir gonna drink some brew in the pub
because players have the tendancy to make fun out of other players when they play those types of character
'I' being one of them
good day sir gonna drink some brew in the pub
Tero.
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2008
- Messages
- 2,686
No definitly not.Cant you say...are? Jiggz needs to be higher...
Jigglypuff is a bad character, true fact.
Fuzzyness
The Reality!
tero...yes/no...jiggz is kinda coming back onto me again >__< she's too good
man jiggz on brinstar <3 <3 and even on yoshi story
man jiggz on brinstar <3 <3 and even on yoshi story
VA
Smash Hero
so ****ing arrogant. yeah people stop playing jiggz because edwin makes fun of them.no one plays jiggs that much in europe .
because players have the tendancy to make fun out of other players when they play those types of character
'I' being one of them
good day sir gonna drink some brew in the pub
Tero.
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2008
- Messages
- 2,686
I still hate her lol, haven't played her in tourney since october or something like that ...
maybe I'll get back to jigglypuff one day =)
Fuzzyness
The Reality!
i stopped playing her, then used her in friendlies again and in tourney and felt the flow come back =)
She's ****ing sick!
She's ****ing sick!
Retroking2000
Smash Master
VA : that was a funny post
because you reacted properly to a ******** post shows how low your I.Q is
more nutrients for the brain
kthxbye
ofc jiggz is sick mango is proof
:D
how long have you known me on the boards to post anything serious you should continue putting me on your ignore list/
that prevents you seeming like some guy who has roys sword sideways up his donkey ***
good day
vanitydevil
because you reacted properly to a ******** post shows how low your I.Q is
more nutrients for the brain
kthxbye
ofc jiggz is sick mango is proof
:D
how long have you known me on the boards to post anything serious you should continue putting me on your ignore list/
that prevents you seeming like some guy who has roys sword sideways up his donkey ***
good day
vanitydevil
You need to play her more. Knowing how to play against a jiggz is hard enough. Not knowing gets you in trouble over the edge REAL quick. And who doesn't love
uair rest
utilt rest
uthrow rest
pound rest
fair rest
bair rest
just rest
wop
amazing air control.
etc..
etc..
rest..
and .Tero...i hope you were joking.
Bullet Bill
Smash Master
you do realise Knuttz that this is the PAL tier list and it was made for the PAL game. A lot of thought has been put into it. Jiggs is in the right place imo. Jiggs still gets ***** by a lot of the high tiers in PAL just likle NTSC
J03
Smash Master
oh my.
knuttz jiggs is awesome obv and has an easier time in PAL, in fact PAL is alot more even in general.
but jiggs hasnt over taken any of the 5 top tier and although is about the same level as samus/falcon/ IC's she hasnt gained any advantages to bump her up either.
Also why is luigi below mario o_0. luigi can go toe to toe with all the top tier and has an amazing edgeguarding game, superb recovery and great comboes. his only real disadvantages stems from his slow jump from missed aerials, which is classed as player error and as such should not hold him back on the tier list.
He is also Mr.priority and his dair/bair have huge hitboxes. in fact he has NO BAD AERIALS at all. IN FACT his only BAD move is his dash attack which has HUGE banter.
Compare that with Mario who is worse in almost all areas. mario's only saving factors are his defensive shell (f-smash game) and slightly better recovery in SOME situations.
this needs justification now obv!
knuttz jiggs is awesome obv and has an easier time in PAL, in fact PAL is alot more even in general.
but jiggs hasnt over taken any of the 5 top tier and although is about the same level as samus/falcon/ IC's she hasnt gained any advantages to bump her up either.
Also why is luigi below mario o_0. luigi can go toe to toe with all the top tier and has an amazing edgeguarding game, superb recovery and great comboes. his only real disadvantages stems from his slow jump from missed aerials, which is classed as player error and as such should not hold him back on the tier list.
He is also Mr.priority and his dair/bair have huge hitboxes. in fact he has NO BAD AERIALS at all. IN FACT his only BAD move is his dash attack which has HUGE banter.
Compare that with Mario who is worse in almost all areas. mario's only saving factors are his defensive shell (f-smash game) and slightly better recovery in SOME situations.
this needs justification now obv!
Bullet Bill
Smash Master
WTF Luigi is getting seriously overrated now just becasue a few people have started to use him. Yeah he is good but people playing well with luigi doesn't mean he is higher in the tier list. Tbh characters like link and pikachu are similar being underrated low tiers. He certainly isn't better than mario.
J03
Smash Master
I've decided to write this to hopefully enlighten a few people to the pros and cons of mario and luigi.
jab-equal
jab set- luigis is better
forward tilt- luigis is amazing, combined with his WD it is an effective kill move or just to send them off the stage
uptilt-luigis has huge combo potential, can also be comboed in and out of, although marios has combo ability and is a solid move, luigis is still better =/
i actually could go on but im not going to, you in your own mind can go through the moveset and form your own opinions, the only requirement being a large understanding of both their hitboxes, priorities and other advanced frame data. I'd rather write an constructive mini guide that evaluates their strengths and weaknesses, so here goes.
Marios strengths over luigi are thus. he is more usual to play, his comboes echo falcons to a degree, yet his combo ability is worse then luigis. his cape is his other advatage to a degree, luigis is his headbutt. For luigi his headbutt offers him his horizontal recovery with his down+b and up+b offering his veritcal making for a formidable recovery. not to mention his misfire which is an automatic recovery 1/8th of the time. Marios cape on the other hand helps him recovery to a slightly less degree (coupled with his down+b and up+b makes for a more even, but less effective recovery) however also doubles up as an effective edgeuard move. that said mario and luigi have similar edgeuarding games. both can drop off with bairs, mario can cape whilst luigi can f-tilt. however luigi has about a metric tonne of more options due to his slower falling speed. he can also double jump a dair for what is usually an instant kill on any vertically recovering player, mario does not have this option. Also as Luigi has alot more priority on his moveset this makes intercepting players all the easier.
Also mario has great difficulty edgeguarding from the stage when the opponent is recovering vertically. all he can hope for is that they miss the sweetspot so he can f-smash (the cape does not always work due to numberous chars having the ability to up+b facing the wrong way). obviously mario can simply jump on the edge and edgeguard from there, though most people are tards thinking the cape works all the time
. but as we all know sometimes there simply is not enough time to be able to get on to the edge.
As i mentioned earlier mario has a more fimilar stage game and i think the people responsible for making this tier list have mistaken this as an advantage. What i mean by a more fimiliar stage game is that his playstyle and flow are not to disimilar from what is considered the 'norm' metagame. Luigis is very unfimiliar like say peach; samus, bowser or the IC's whose metagames differ greatly from the mainstream. I'm not saying this is an advantage or disadvantage, in fact i'm trying to imply that this should be a neutral factor, as any high level player should know the ins and outs of the entire cast. i think its evident it was not kept neutral during the making of the tier list.
the next evaluative point is the breaking down of the stage game into its numberous parts, such as approach, platform game, defense and offense. Marios approach is fairly basic, using fairly high priority moves such as his nair, fake out bairs, fireballs and WD smash/grab. because of his simplicity many mario players prefer to start aggresive then resort to his defensive shell and punishment game which to be fair is really good. it is however simple in itself, using spaced f-smashes and punishing big jumps with uairs and hoping for a quick combo which can be led to a destructive finish. However this combo is so inconsistent as even if the mario does it right, the opponent can DI out of it with relative ease, these DI dependent comboes are often considered ineffective at high level play yet it was used as a strong positive point in the creation of the tier list. his move set is very average and is easy to use but pulling of consistant comboes with mario is bloody difficult. His platform game is crucial to mixing up his rather basic game and allows him to approach with more ease using his bair and push opponents off the stage and use his effective edgeguarding game.
Now if youve actually read all of my post thus far its pretty obvious that mario is a decent character worthy of respect and in the right hands is very difficult to overcome. if fact mario reminds me alot of Chun-li from the SF series. The point of this never was that mario is bad its simply that luigi is better, and how much better is obvious enough to warrant and change in the tier list.
Luigis stage game is strange to get around and because of its strangeness its alot harder to guess what luigi is going to do at any given time, especially because of his massive priority meaning that even if his opponent guesses right, luigi can still get a trade off which may put him in an advntageous posistion* (usually because luigis approach moves are so powerful they can knock you off the stage at relatively low %'s where as marios moveset lacks the power to do this). Luigi can approach in a few very effective ways due to his very long range WD. his f-tilt is quick and powerful and he can approach with smashes, yes thats right, he can approach with smashes. he needn't rely on his huge WD however because luigis defense game is probably in the top 3 of PAL characters. luigi can sit back and punish most advances on him simply by shoving out a nair which at least trade offs because of his amazing priority, alot of luigi players dont like just using the nair because it leaves them vunerable if it misses, luckily luigi can do ANY aerial bar the nair twice in any short hop. so if someone approaches from above, you can uair, if it misses, then shove out the nair, luigis directional aerials are ALL high priority, lastly if some one decides to come at you from the ground luigi can simply dair out of his sheild or at higher percents the up+b out of the sheild will take the stock. Regardless, no move is useful if your opponent sees it coming so mixing it up as always is crucial, you'll be happy to hear then that luigi has a relatively easy time mixing it up because his WD makes him as fast as falcon and his jump makes you look so vunerable its great to bait your opponent in (just dont forget to hit them before they hit you). After a low % combo against any character all luigi theoretically needs to do is grab, as he can do any power move out of them and its MORE effective then foxs' up throw-up air combo, because smash DI'ing luigis dair is sending you off the stage at 50%+ regardless, and as i mentioned earlier luigis edge game is slightly superior to marios too. Therefore luigi's stage game is bloody difficult to overcome, that is with even taking into consideration the ease that a luigi player can mix up his approach game to catch players unawares.
For more info on luigi approach mindgames i seriously suggest watching some KA Master or Pacman. For some sick Mario footage i suggest DJ Nintendo or Eggz.
*It is worth noting however that some planned tradeoffs can really work against luigi because of his slow jump, if luigi is knock up and the opponent away, its very difficult for luigi to get to the floor quick enough to punish the opponent, this usually happens a few times a match. It is not a disadvantage because luigi almost always comes out on top of a tradeoff when both chars are at equal percent. It just so happens that when this DOES NOT happen, luigi gains a upper hand.
Here are a few character specific advantages that luigi has that i didn't want in the mini guide because they are too specific, not general info like i wanted.
Luigi can combo FF's them with ease with his uptilt, up smash, chaingrabs and lead it to a dair out of a grab and edgeguard.
Against marth, who is considered counter-luigi, a luigi player can still force him on a level field because marth may outrange him but he needs to guess when luigi is going to actually approach, one wrong move and luigi can come in and do some serious damage.
Against Sheik Luigi can put up his sheild against her well space attacks, then WD grab. Alternatively if you're against a tilt spammer you can WD, spot dodge, grab.
jab-equal
jab set- luigis is better
forward tilt- luigis is amazing, combined with his WD it is an effective kill move or just to send them off the stage
uptilt-luigis has huge combo potential, can also be comboed in and out of, although marios has combo ability and is a solid move, luigis is still better =/
i actually could go on but im not going to, you in your own mind can go through the moveset and form your own opinions, the only requirement being a large understanding of both their hitboxes, priorities and other advanced frame data. I'd rather write an constructive mini guide that evaluates their strengths and weaknesses, so here goes.
Marios strengths over luigi are thus. he is more usual to play, his comboes echo falcons to a degree, yet his combo ability is worse then luigis. his cape is his other advatage to a degree, luigis is his headbutt. For luigi his headbutt offers him his horizontal recovery with his down+b and up+b offering his veritcal making for a formidable recovery. not to mention his misfire which is an automatic recovery 1/8th of the time. Marios cape on the other hand helps him recovery to a slightly less degree (coupled with his down+b and up+b makes for a more even, but less effective recovery) however also doubles up as an effective edgeuard move. that said mario and luigi have similar edgeuarding games. both can drop off with bairs, mario can cape whilst luigi can f-tilt. however luigi has about a metric tonne of more options due to his slower falling speed. he can also double jump a dair for what is usually an instant kill on any vertically recovering player, mario does not have this option. Also as Luigi has alot more priority on his moveset this makes intercepting players all the easier.
Also mario has great difficulty edgeguarding from the stage when the opponent is recovering vertically. all he can hope for is that they miss the sweetspot so he can f-smash (the cape does not always work due to numberous chars having the ability to up+b facing the wrong way). obviously mario can simply jump on the edge and edgeguard from there, though most people are tards thinking the cape works all the time
. but as we all know sometimes there simply is not enough time to be able to get on to the edge. As i mentioned earlier mario has a more fimilar stage game and i think the people responsible for making this tier list have mistaken this as an advantage. What i mean by a more fimiliar stage game is that his playstyle and flow are not to disimilar from what is considered the 'norm' metagame. Luigis is very unfimiliar like say peach; samus, bowser or the IC's whose metagames differ greatly from the mainstream. I'm not saying this is an advantage or disadvantage, in fact i'm trying to imply that this should be a neutral factor, as any high level player should know the ins and outs of the entire cast. i think its evident it was not kept neutral during the making of the tier list.
the next evaluative point is the breaking down of the stage game into its numberous parts, such as approach, platform game, defense and offense. Marios approach is fairly basic, using fairly high priority moves such as his nair, fake out bairs, fireballs and WD smash/grab. because of his simplicity many mario players prefer to start aggresive then resort to his defensive shell and punishment game which to be fair is really good. it is however simple in itself, using spaced f-smashes and punishing big jumps with uairs and hoping for a quick combo which can be led to a destructive finish. However this combo is so inconsistent as even if the mario does it right, the opponent can DI out of it with relative ease, these DI dependent comboes are often considered ineffective at high level play yet it was used as a strong positive point in the creation of the tier list. his move set is very average and is easy to use but pulling of consistant comboes with mario is bloody difficult. His platform game is crucial to mixing up his rather basic game and allows him to approach with more ease using his bair and push opponents off the stage and use his effective edgeguarding game.
Now if youve actually read all of my post thus far its pretty obvious that mario is a decent character worthy of respect and in the right hands is very difficult to overcome. if fact mario reminds me alot of Chun-li from the SF series. The point of this never was that mario is bad its simply that luigi is better, and how much better is obvious enough to warrant and change in the tier list.
Luigis stage game is strange to get around and because of its strangeness its alot harder to guess what luigi is going to do at any given time, especially because of his massive priority meaning that even if his opponent guesses right, luigi can still get a trade off which may put him in an advntageous posistion* (usually because luigis approach moves are so powerful they can knock you off the stage at relatively low %'s where as marios moveset lacks the power to do this). Luigi can approach in a few very effective ways due to his very long range WD. his f-tilt is quick and powerful and he can approach with smashes, yes thats right, he can approach with smashes. he needn't rely on his huge WD however because luigis defense game is probably in the top 3 of PAL characters. luigi can sit back and punish most advances on him simply by shoving out a nair which at least trade offs because of his amazing priority, alot of luigi players dont like just using the nair because it leaves them vunerable if it misses, luckily luigi can do ANY aerial bar the nair twice in any short hop. so if someone approaches from above, you can uair, if it misses, then shove out the nair, luigis directional aerials are ALL high priority, lastly if some one decides to come at you from the ground luigi can simply dair out of his sheild or at higher percents the up+b out of the sheild will take the stock. Regardless, no move is useful if your opponent sees it coming so mixing it up as always is crucial, you'll be happy to hear then that luigi has a relatively easy time mixing it up because his WD makes him as fast as falcon and his jump makes you look so vunerable its great to bait your opponent in (just dont forget to hit them before they hit you
). After a low % combo against any character all luigi theoretically needs to do is grab, as he can do any power move out of them and its MORE effective then foxs' up throw-up air combo, because smash DI'ing luigis dair is sending you off the stage at 50%+ regardless, and as i mentioned earlier luigis edge game is slightly superior to marios too. Therefore luigi's stage game is bloody difficult to overcome, that is with even taking into consideration the ease that a luigi player can mix up his approach game to catch players unawares. For more info on luigi approach mindgames i seriously suggest watching some KA Master or Pacman. For some sick Mario footage i suggest DJ Nintendo or Eggz.
*It is worth noting however that some planned tradeoffs can really work against luigi because of his slow jump, if luigi is knock up and the opponent away, its very difficult for luigi to get to the floor quick enough to punish the opponent, this usually happens a few times a match. It is not a disadvantage because luigi almost always comes out on top of a tradeoff when both chars are at equal percent. It just so happens that when this DOES NOT happen, luigi gains a upper hand.
Here are a few character specific advantages that luigi has that i didn't want in the mini guide because they are too specific, not general info like i wanted.
Luigi can combo FF's them with ease with his uptilt, up smash, chaingrabs and lead it to a dair out of a grab and edgeguard.
Against marth, who is considered counter-luigi, a luigi player can still force him on a level field because marth may outrange him but he needs to guess when luigi is going to actually approach, one wrong move and luigi can come in and do some serious damage.
Against Sheik Luigi can put up his sheild against her well space attacks, then WD grab. Alternatively if you're against a tilt spammer you can WD, spot dodge, grab.
Bullet Bill
Smash Master
Very passionate Joe I'll give you that. Clearly Will has made a good impression on you. However I can see you're not giving mario the credit where it is due.I've decided to write this to hopefully enlighten a few people to the pros and cons of mario and luigi.
jab-equal
jab set- luigis is better
forward tilt- luigis is amazing, combined with his WD it is an effective kill move or just to send them off the stage
uptilt-luigis has huge combo potential, can also be comboed in and out of, although marios has combo ability and is a solid move, luigis is still better =/
i actually could go on but im not going to, you in your own mind can go through the moveset and form your own opinions, the only requirement being a large understanding of both their hitboxes, priorities and other advanced frame data. I'd rather write an constructive mini guide that evaluates their strengths and weaknesses, so here goes.
Marios strengths over luigi are thus. he is more usual to play, his comboes echo falcons to a degree, yet his combo ability is worse then luigis. his cape is his other advatage to a degree, luigis is his headbutt. For luigi his headbutt offers him his horizontal recovery with his down+b and up+b offering his veritcal making for a formidable recovery. not to mention his misfire which is an automatic recovery 1/8th of the time. Marios cape on the other hand helps him recovery to a slightly less degree (coupled with his down+b and up+b makes for a more even, but less effective recovery) however also doubles up as an effective edgeuard move. that said mario and luigi have similar edgeuarding games. both can drop off with bairs, mario can cape whilst luigi can f-tilt. however luigi has about a metric tonne of more options due to his slower falling speed. he can also double jump a dair for what is usually an instant kill on any vertically recovering player, mario does not have this option. Also as Luigi has alot more priority on his moveset this makes intercepting players all the easier.
Also mario has great difficulty edgeguarding from the stage when the opponent is recovering vertically. all he can hope for is that they miss the sweetspot so he can f-smash (the cape does not always work due to numberous chars having the ability to up+b facing the wrong way). obviously mario can simply jump on the edge and edgeguard from there, though most people are tards thinking the cape works all the time
As i mentioned earlier mario has a more fimilar stage game and i think the people responsible for making this tier list have mistaken this as an advantage. What i mean by a more fimiliar stage game is that his playstyle and flow are not to disimilar from what is considered the 'norm' metagame. Luigis is very unfimiliar like say peach; samus, bowser or the IC's whose metagames differ greatly from the mainstream. I'm not saying this is an advantage or disadvantage, in fact i'm trying to imply that this should be a neutral factor, as any high level player should know the ins and outs of the entire cast. i think its evident it was not kept neutral during the making of the tier list.
the next evaluative point is the breaking down of the stage game into its numberous parts, such as approach, platform game, defense and offense. Marios approach is fairly basic, using fairly high priority moves such as his nair, fake out bairs, fireballs and WD smash/grab. because of his simplicity many mario players prefer to start aggresive then resort to his defensive shell and punishment game which to be fair is really good. it is however simple in itself, using spaced f-smashes and punishing big jumps with uairs and hoping for a quick combo which can be led to a destructive finish. However this combo is so inconsistent as even if the mario does it right, the opponent can DI out of it with relative ease, these DI dependent comboes are often considered ineffective at high level play yet it was used as a strong positive point in the creation of the tier list. his move set is very average and is easy to use but pulling of consistant comboes with mario is bloody difficult. His platform game is crucial to mixing up his rather basic game and allows him to approach with more ease using his bair and push opponents off the stage and use his effective edgeguarding game.
Now if youve actually read all of my post thus far its pretty obvious that mario is a decent character worthy of respect and in the right hands is very difficult to overcome. if fact mario reminds me alot of Chun-li from the SF series. The point of this never was that mario is bad its simply that luigi is better, and how much better is obvious enough to warrant and change in the tier list.
Luigis stage game is strange to get around and because of its strangeness its alot harder to guess what luigi is going to do at any given time, especially because of his massive priority meaning that even if his opponent guesses right, luigi can still get a trade off which may put him in an advntageous posistion* (usually because luigis approach moves are so powerful they can knock you off the stage at relatively low %'s where as marios moveset lacks the power to do this). Luigi can approach in a few very effective ways due to his very long range WD. his f-tilt is quick and powerful and he can approach with smashes, yes thats right, he can approach with smashes. he needn't rely on his huge WD however because luigis defense game is probably in the top 3 of PAL characters. luigi can sit back and punish most advances on him simply by shoving out a nair which at least trade offs because of his amazing priority, alot of luigi players dont like just using the nair because it leaves them vunerable if it misses, luckily luigi can do ANY aerial bar the nair twice in any short hop. so if someone approaches from above, you can uair, if it misses, then shove out the nair, luigis directional aerials are ALL high priority, lastly if some one decides to come at you from the ground luigi can simply dair out of his sheild or at higher percents the up+b out of the sheild will take the stock. Regardless, no move is useful if your opponent sees it coming so mixing it up as always is crucial, you'll be happy to hear then that luigi has a relatively easy time mixing it up because his WD makes him as fast as falcon and his jump makes you look so vunerable its great to bait your opponent in (just dont forget to hit them before they hit you
For more info on luigi approach mindgames i seriously suggest watching some KA Master or Pacman. For some sick Mario footage i suggest DJ Nintendo or Eggz.
*It is worth noting however that some planned tradeoffs can really work against luigi because of his slow jump, if luigi is knock up and the opponent away, its very difficult for luigi to get to the floor quick enough to punish the opponent, this usually happens a few times a match. It is not a disadvantage because luigi almost always comes out on top of a tradeoff when both chars are at equal percent. It just so happens that when this DOES NOT happen, luigi gains a upper hand.
Here are a few character specific advantages that luigi has that i didn't want in the mini guide because they are too specific, not general info like i wanted.
Luigi can combo FF's them with ease with his uptilt, up smash, chaingrabs and lead it to a dair out of a grab and edgeguard.
Against marth, who is considered counter-luigi, a luigi player can still force him on a level field because marth may outrange him but he needs to guess when luigi is going to actually approach, one wrong move and luigi can come in and do some serious damage.
Against Sheik Luigi can put up his sheild against her well space attacks, then WD grab. Alternatively if you're against a tilt spammer you can WD, spot dodge, grab.
Luigi's Ftilt is fine but not better than Marios. It has very similar range priority and power to Marios. Luigi does have a good moveset theres no doubt about that but I think you've forgotton Mario's grab game for example. The Up and Down throws can chaingrab a HUGe amount of characters to quite high percent which is unescapable and can be combo'd into Dsmash, fsmash. He also has an absolute legendary uptilt which is prob one of the best in the game. Comes out fast very good priority and sends them straight up. Mario also has strong combos against a lot of characters and has a strong fast Dsmash at his disposable and a pretty rangey Fsmash which is useful anyway.
In terms of recovery Luigi's is better but Mario's is still decent and you have a lot of options to stall. You can also come back with fireballs making it that much harder to edgeguard. He also has a good grab range (ledge). Luigi's recovery is good but unsafe as after each and every forward B which you NEED to use most of the time, you are vunerable.
Edgeguarding. To start off with Marios bair is better and lot more capable of cheap kills than luigi. Mario also has the cape and while it doesn't work all the time (obviously) it's still very effective as guarantees death. Mario also has the Dsmash which is a great way of punishing anything that isn't sweetspotted. An interesting point you brought up as well is falling speed. Luigis is slower and you can fit in more aerials but it also means hitting people below the stage (which is where many characters come back) becomes difficult. I'm not sure why but you mentioned edgeguarding a firefox straight up. Presuming it's not an edgehog, which is universal, you can just cape then dsmash or fsmash.
Projectiles. Well Marios isn't fantastic but even the fireballs are better than luigs... fireballs.
Mario's approach game is fairly simple but he unlike luigi he is not forced to approach with wavedashes. Luigi has a godawful jump kinda like samus' which means that wavedashing is luigis only decent approach. Luigi has a crazy WD of course and he can approach well with it but you don't get to exploit his high priority aerials. His jump also makes him vunerable even though he has so much priority he can still be outranged. Mario while still having good priority from bair and nair is far less vunerable.
Luigi is a good character don't get me wrong and we're all well impressed with Will (Will has always been a good low tier player anyway). Yeah luigi is good against fox and falco but against the other top tiers is far less convincing. Mario has a good moveset himself, a ridiculous uptilt, a great fsmash and Dsmash. He has great combos AND reliable chaingrabs. Mario is better because luigi has limitations in his recovery and his approach which mario doesn't suffer from.
Professor Pro
Smash Legend
I dont think I read any of them long useless post over useless characters lol.
I think luigi only ***** people who don't know how to play against him and who are scared of the WD to attack or grab or anyfin.
I think Mario is better then luigi. I think fox is better then luigi and mario.
I read a lil bit of Bullet post and I havent seen Will (COEY) luigi to be impressed.....if you tell me how he did against some of the players at GGT2 I will ahve an idea of what level he is at lol.
I think luigi only ***** people who don't know how to play against him and who are scared of the WD to attack or grab or anyfin.
I think Mario is better then luigi. I think fox is better then luigi and mario.
I read a lil bit of Bullet post and I havent seen Will (COEY) luigi to be impressed.....if you tell me how he did against some of the players at GGT2 I will ahve an idea of what level he is at lol.
J03
Smash Master
aye a nice rebutal and between the two statements weve pretty much covered the major points.
time to get a little more specific so to start off im going to build upon the points you have made.
Luigi and mario both have an amazing grab game. i think the difference between them is that mario can chain grab alot of cast where as luigi can only really chain grab a few characters. that said, it is much easier for luigi to get his big 'heavy' hit from his grabs and on top of that, luigis 'heavy' hit (dair) is more powerful then anything in marios arsenal. Another point is that he doesn't need to rely on a 'direct' chain throw as he can combo in and out of his grabs on almost any character to a % where his grab-dair will knock them off stage for an edgeguarding oppurtunity.
You are correct with luigis recovery, he is vunerable at numberous times. but with good DI luigi should always be getting sent to the top corner, from there luigi can pull of 2-4 headbutts before ever getting near the stage, massively increasing the misfire chance for an auto recovery. its also worth noting that most players cannot do luigis down+b to its fullest potential. i would like to point out that those who can prove how useful the move is. Vertically the move (when max charged) offers the same height, approx., then his up+b. This gives them the chance to recover from much higher up, thus keeping there options and making it very difficult to be edgeguarded at all. this is just one option obviously and marios recovery is 'safer' but it is much worse then luigis in terms of distance. also luigi can stall for ages before needing to up+b. if your opponent has lost his invincibility frames, they will just drop, even if they realise, the situation is reversed.
As for edgeguarding i would like to point out that luigi can hit you through the stage with the huge hitbox on his dair. so even if you sweetspot it will still hit if timed correctly (the timing on this aint too difficult either) all you can do is tech which gives the luigi more then enough time to get into whatever posistion he wants, unless you missed the tech, in which case you're dead xD. I think you mistook the meaning of the advantage of luigi's falling speed. What i meant is that luigi can hold on to the edge, wait untill your roughly about to up+b, drop from the edge and simply hold a hitbox right where you want to go. Infact the only way to recover against a luigi is to recover high, and dont think luigi doesnt know this xD, he cant wait around for ages whilst you fall to the stage and heavy hit you when you land. As for edgeuarding as a whole both these chars have what they need to get by, and as such should be dropped from further discussion.
As for projectiles, what can i say, luigis fireballs have mostly novel use though you can use them to cover your WD, as in, fireball->WD. and as they fire horizontally you can occasionally throw one at someone whose hanging from an edge you want. but in all honesty they're not too great.
The next bit is definatly the most crucial part of the discussion. Luigi appears dependent on WD for approaching, just think about it, slow jump, massive WD its a no brainer. luigis WD is his most effective approach and its probably the most effective approach in the game. he can rush about 3 tip distances at falcons speed before he starts to lose momentum which in turn effectively controls the horizontal with his grabs and f-tilts (obviosuly WD->sheild->grab to take any hit thrown your way). much in the way falco uses his lasers, they're falcos entire horizontal game, just one move. It might be just one move, but that really is all he needs. You mentioned that luigi cannot use his priority moves whilst WD'ing, this is not true. Luigi can cancel his WD with a jump then an aerial whenever he wishes, which high level players abuse. For example WD-> Nair against a jumping opponent. Luigi can also exert alot of sheild pressure with SHD-aerial->l-cancel->uptilt->SHD-aerial. Mario struggles alot against sheilds as his main stratergy vs sheild is to grab, which weakens his options.
Although Luigis jump makes him look vunerable dont forgot that luigi is never vunerable, you cant combo him for a reason, his nair. so whenever luigi accidently jumps (or baits you by making you believe that) he can nair you and the situation is reversed.
Also Luigi has an easier time vs the low tiers and his matchup vs Marth needs a rethink because its much more even then it appears. Luigi can also **** the spacies as hard as anyone whilst they cant **** him. Sheik gives him a hard time but can dish it right back and also destroys her recovery.
Luigi has has better match ups in the game and is better then Mario on paper.
time to get a little more specific so to start off im going to build upon the points you have made.
Luigi and mario both have an amazing grab game. i think the difference between them is that mario can chain grab alot of cast where as luigi can only really chain grab a few characters. that said, it is much easier for luigi to get his big 'heavy' hit from his grabs and on top of that, luigis 'heavy' hit (dair) is more powerful then anything in marios arsenal. Another point is that he doesn't need to rely on a 'direct' chain throw as he can combo in and out of his grabs on almost any character to a % where his grab-dair will knock them off stage for an edgeguarding oppurtunity.
You are correct with luigis recovery, he is vunerable at numberous times. but with good DI luigi should always be getting sent to the top corner, from there luigi can pull of 2-4 headbutts before ever getting near the stage, massively increasing the misfire chance for an auto recovery. its also worth noting that most players cannot do luigis down+b to its fullest potential. i would like to point out that those who can prove how useful the move is. Vertically the move (when max charged) offers the same height, approx., then his up+b. This gives them the chance to recover from much higher up, thus keeping there options and making it very difficult to be edgeguarded at all. this is just one option obviously and marios recovery is 'safer' but it is much worse then luigis in terms of distance. also luigi can stall for ages before needing to up+b. if your opponent has lost his invincibility frames, they will just drop, even if they realise, the situation is reversed.
As for edgeguarding i would like to point out that luigi can hit you through the stage with the huge hitbox on his dair. so even if you sweetspot it will still hit if timed correctly (the timing on this aint too difficult either) all you can do is tech which gives the luigi more then enough time to get into whatever posistion he wants, unless you missed the tech, in which case you're dead xD. I think you mistook the meaning of the advantage of luigi's falling speed. What i meant is that luigi can hold on to the edge, wait untill your roughly about to up+b, drop from the edge and simply hold a hitbox right where you want to go. Infact the only way to recover against a luigi is to recover high, and dont think luigi doesnt know this xD, he cant wait around for ages whilst you fall to the stage and heavy hit you when you land. As for edgeuarding as a whole both these chars have what they need to get by, and as such should be dropped from further discussion.
As for projectiles, what can i say, luigis fireballs have mostly novel use though you can use them to cover your WD, as in, fireball->WD. and as they fire horizontally you can occasionally throw one at someone whose hanging from an edge you want. but in all honesty they're not too great.
The next bit is definatly the most crucial part of the discussion. Luigi appears dependent on WD for approaching, just think about it, slow jump, massive WD its a no brainer. luigis WD is his most effective approach and its probably the most effective approach in the game. he can rush about 3 tip distances at falcons speed before he starts to lose momentum which in turn effectively controls the horizontal with his grabs and f-tilts (obviosuly WD->sheild->grab to take any hit thrown your way). much in the way falco uses his lasers, they're falcos entire horizontal game, just one move. It might be just one move, but that really is all he needs. You mentioned that luigi cannot use his priority moves whilst WD'ing, this is not true. Luigi can cancel his WD with a jump then an aerial whenever he wishes, which high level players abuse. For example WD-> Nair against a jumping opponent. Luigi can also exert alot of sheild pressure with SHD-aerial->l-cancel->uptilt->SHD-aerial. Mario struggles alot against sheilds as his main stratergy vs sheild is to grab, which weakens his options.
Although Luigis jump makes him look vunerable dont forgot that luigi is never vunerable, you cant combo him for a reason, his nair. so whenever luigi accidently jumps (or baits you by making you believe that) he can nair you and the situation is reversed.
Also Luigi has an easier time vs the low tiers and his matchup vs Marth needs a rethink because its much more even then it appears. Luigi can also **** the spacies as hard as anyone whilst they cant **** him. Sheik gives him a hard time but can dish it right back and also destroys her recovery.
Luigi has has better match ups in the game and is better then Mario on paper.
J03
Smash Master
he ***** them lol
he beat jam (close as hell) and i beleive jam finished in the top 5. also jam is one of the most veteran players in europe who has exp against every type of char. so to say luigi only does well against peeps who dont know how to play against him is actually a disguting comment which shows your inexperience
xXx-NoobKing-xXx
Smash Hero
Roy is top tier.
Sorry I've never posted that before.
Come to GENESIS!!! http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=211141
Sorry I've never posted that before.
Come to GENESIS!!! http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=211141
VA
Smash Hero
jam hates luigi and will freely admit to not having a clue of what to do against him. saying that I know what I'm doing against luigi and will gave me trouble (although I did JV 4 stock him after losing the 2nd game).he ***** them lol
he beat jam (close as hell) and i beleive jam finished in the top 5. also jam is one of the most veteran players in europe who has exp against every type of char. so to say luigi only does well against peeps who dont know how to play against him is actually a disguting comment which shows your inexperience
He's tricky and that's for sure, he has sheik style combos that keep you in lag for a long time. It's confusing in terms of DI etc. But the only part of your essay I read was about luigi's utilt > mario's utilt. Which is just wrong. Mario's utilt is amazing with one of the most ridiculous hitboxes in the game. Anyway, they're both underrated.
Faab
Smash Ace
Let's just play fox falco sheik and marth and tournaments from now on.
Tero.
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2008
- Messages
- 2,686
sounds good.
Professor Pro
Smash Legend
Oh yeah I forgot you have massive experience.....sorry about that.is actually a disguting comment which shows your inexperience
I agree loool.
J03
Smash Master
aye you did you cocky little prick i've got years on you, in looks, style, height and smash experience.
i doesnt matter if im better then you lad, i know i'm smarter and i know alot more information smash wise. On top of that i know alot more then people think i do. theres only a handful of active UK smashers that know more then me
VA: perhaps, but lugis uptilt is still sick.
i've got years on you, in looks, style, height and smash experience.i doesnt matter if im better then you lad, i know i'm smarter and i know alot more information smash wise. On top of that i know alot more then people think i do. theres only a handful of active UK smashers that know more then me
VA: perhaps, but lugis uptilt is still sick.
COEY
Smash Lord
You guys sounding the same, just like your languages...... <3
Alright for my say as a luigi player on the subject, for a start off jo3 and bullet bill both havent got a clue tbh. Jo3 plays me all the time so he is obviously gonna be biased, the fact is any character can beat any other character in the game if you play your opponent enough. Also luigi has no good match ups vs the high tier (and pesronally i find marth easier than either fox or falco), if anyone thinks that he does they are wrong. Sure he can do well against them but its all about player skill and knowledge of match ups. But this is common knowledge.
I dont play luigi cause i think hes the best character in the game stats wise, i personally imo think hes the most fun for me and fits the way i play smash quite well. The fact that i have done better in tournament with him than any other character is because of this i believe.
Prof what are you on about also, jo3 has a european tournament under his belt as well as 2-3 years of uk smash tourneys and fest (most fests that he helped run).
Raise or lower luigi w/e wont stop me playing him. Also im coming to the german tourney so i hope to see and id be happy to talk to alot of the important euro community about anything else on this matter.
Professor Pro
Smash Legend
LOL How could you possibly know if you have more information then me smash wise....you might have more experience then me cos you have been about for longer but for you to stay say that you know more is a massive statement. Just because I don't talk about the game alot on smashboards does not mean that you know alot more then me smash wise.
I know alot more then people probably know I do since I never really talk bout smash cos it equals in long posts like yours above lol. Thats just for me anyway lol I don't like doing long posts unless they are insulting an individual lol.
My smash knowledge has helped me to get me to where I am in the UK now anyway which shows something baby.
:embarrass
Bullet Bill
Smash Master
to be fair I thinka lot of the players on here are fairly knowledgeable. No point in argueing about it.
Aiko
Smash Champion
lets leave it at that, this discussion, whilst has had good debate from jo3 and bill, isn't going to progress anymore and i doubt anyone is going to refresh the PAL tier list anytime soon.
Professor Pro
Smash Legend
We weren't arguing. Just a bit of friendly banter. (I think that word was actually approiate for this situation loool)
J03
Smash Master
come on pro, you've been playing for what? 1 year or something.
I've been playing so much longer then you and ive hosted more events then you ever will. imo your as good as who you play, and ive been top of the NW for years. Man theres so much more **** then you know in my head. i find it ****ed up that people think what you do is unique, i've seen and done it already. I don't respect players who drop smarts for speed and who can be read like a book. I respect you coz you aint dropped smarts, you just dont have any, it aint your fault, youve just not got the experience atm. If you could play for a few more years youll be sick as hell. Untill presume i know more then you and save me the energy of having to repeat myself k?
I've been playing so much longer then you and ive hosted more events then you ever will. imo your as good as who you play, and ive been top of the NW for years. Man theres so much more **** then you know in my head. i find it ****ed up that people think what you do is unique, i've seen and done it already. I don't respect players who drop smarts for speed and who can be read like a book. I respect you coz you aint dropped smarts, you just dont have any, it aint your fault, youve just not got the experience atm. If you could play for a few more years youll be sick as hell. Untill presume i know more then you and save me the energy of having to repeat myself k?
Professor Pro
Smash Legend
How have I been playing a year loool. I've been playing about 2 year and a bit now. I dunno why you are trying to come like I said you dont have any knowledge on smash when I was saying you don't know how much I know to be making statements like the one before. I defintely know I know more then you think I know which allowed me to progress as fast as I did in this community.
loool I don't have any smarts. Guess Zeppo just lost to a normal player who had speed....along with VA.
Why do you find it ****ed up that people think what I do is unique loool, it's not there fault if they haven't seen someone play like me before lol.
Of course I still got some expereince to get to become the best player in the world of course but just because I don't have YEARS of expereince and hosted events doesn't mean that you have more smash knowledge then me. It just means you have more experience with the game.
I see I hit your soft spot with this whole knowledge and experience about smash lol. I ought to bring the subject up more loool.
Luv u baby. If you post again make it happy lol, you're not meant to be on my list on the people I argue with its only meant to be VA or Bullet Bill or people like that lol. I don't mind carrying on this thing but just as long as I sense no hostility.
I LOVE YOU J03!
Aiko
Smash Champion
Jo3, Pro: go take your experience banter to msn.
finish.
finish.
Professor Pro
Smash Legend
Sorry Aiko.
Sorry.....
on discussion fox should be first on the tier list and sheik should be 7th.
Sorry.....
on discussion fox should be first on the tier list and sheik should be 7th.
J03
Smash Master
naw pro i was just high and figured itd be hilarious to smack you around verbally. but you really should just presume i know more then you =/ so should everyone, i can see your thought process's when you play, your a notch above chrisboi level no johns like he beat me last time hoho.
Also yall underestimate charles hes alot better then people think. he makes it look easy going toe to toe with you, like hes not even trying =/ honestly i dont think hes trying most of the time, when he swtiches it on hes the best by a long way. =( we all need to knuckle down to get to his level of the game. ironically his level is the norm in high level european play.
no johns like he beat me last time hoho. Also yall underestimate charles hes alot better then people think. he makes it look easy going toe to toe with you, like hes not even trying =/ honestly i dont think hes trying most of the time, when he swtiches it on hes the best by a long way. =( we all need to knuckle down to get to his level of the game. ironically his level is the norm in high level european play.
Professor Pro
Smash Legend
How could you say I underestimate Charles when you have no idea of what I think of Charles and I play him more way often then you so I have more of a picture of what he is like loool.
He's defintely not the best by a long way when he turns it up but he is defintely the best in the UK. I know after a short while like 3 months - 1 year I will beat him overall anyway but I know you prob won't agree so I will just show you in the future lol.
He's defintely not the best by a long way when he turns it up but he is defintely the best in the UK. I know after a short while like 3 months - 1 year I will beat him overall anyway but I know you prob won't agree so I will just show you in the future lol.
VA
Smash Hero
Pro is smart and I know he has knowledge about the game that he doesn't flaunt. However I don't think you beating me and Z means that you are smarter. I think I have a fairly accurate guage of who is smart and who isn't in UK smash scene and I know that Pro is well up there.
VA
Smash Hero
Professor Pro
Smash Legend
I agree tbh loool. Which is why I made that comment. Plus I play Charles more often the he does he doesn't play me that and the top 5 often to make the statement of Charles being way better then all of us.
There is quite the difference between top 5 and the bottom 5 of the UK.
Yeah I didn't mean it in the sense as I was smarter then you lot. It was just cos he said that i'm not smart at all and I was saying how could this be because in the tournament I beat you two and it would take way more then just speed to take you two out cos you're both very good players.
J03
Smash Master
VA- you probably dont understand because your not on charles level =/ lol, oj but lets be clear, high level european play includes the entire 32 man bracket. if i meant higher i would higher said 'top' or 'best in euro'. Obviously your opinions are your own but Pro isnt one of the UK's smarter players !!!(?(?(!!!IMO!!!)?)?)!!! or maybe our definitions or smart are what differ.
Pro- your ignorant if you think charles isnt the best by a chunk. I appreciate your last statement as of course i not going to agree with a comment like that. Obv you took the high ground and you'll force me to admit your as good as charles if you beat him. GJ on getting banned btw
Pro- your ignorant if you think charles isnt the best by a chunk. I appreciate your last statement as of course i not going to agree with a comment like that. Obv you took the high ground and you'll force me to admit your as good as charles if you beat him. GJ on getting banned btw
VA
Smash Hero
If you remember clearly Z and charles ranked exactly the same at ESA2 so :/
you don't understand smash nearly as well as you think you do.
you don't understand smash nearly as well as you think you do.
J03
Smash Master
naw i just play the game. tell me what you think gives you more of a right to be correct then me in this situation? a few places on the rankings? other then that you and I are almost identical in experience both in the UK and abroad.
Your arrogance outshines your accuracy
for a long time i have considered Z to be on par with Charles. I thought they both excelled in different areas. It is clear to anyone with a brain that Charles is better then Z atm especially seeing as Z doesnt really play that much atm.
Your arrogance outshines your accuracy
for a long time i have considered Z to be on par with Charles. I thought they both excelled in different areas. It is clear to anyone with a brain that Charles is better then Z atm especially seeing as Z doesnt really play that much atm.