Official PAL Tier List (Melee)

[VA]

you didn't really make any point?

 

[TelpeFion]

Actually I think Peach can't even chaingrab Falcon?

 

[VA]

She can a bit I think, from about 30% - 80% (I think). That's judged only by what I've seen recently. I saw a video of GAwes vs XIF and wes jumped out of it on 84%.

 

[Mr P]

let me rephrase my question: "name a falcon that consistently places higher than peach at peak meta game (the area of play where tiers are derived from)".

Falcon hasn't been winning tournaments since Isai. Peach doesn't really win that much these days but Cort places really high and Vidjo usually places above Silentspectre. What I'm saying is, mastering any of the top 4 out here can grant you tournament wins, it's usually anomalies that get to finals with jiggz or something like mang0. Most of the good players use Marth/Fox/Falco or some combination of. Anyway this probably makes no sense, I have no idea what I'm typing.

The only player who has been winning tournies with peach is cort and even then he uses a lot of other characters too because he knows the weakneses that peach has, and even the tournies he does win are small CT based ones. The only other peach player who i can think of who's been winning tournies is xelic but there's barely much competition where he is. Also what are you on about Vidjo normally places higher than silentspectre ? Name me some tournies they were both at. SS has consistanly placed top 3 and won several norcal tournies for about 2 years whilst vidjo hasnt been going to as many tournies recently but when he does he places normally just outside the top 5 at majors or within 5 in his region. Darkrain also wins the occasional tournie in the midwest. i think tournament record wise both the characters are represented in similar respects in the states so there is no real arguement there to say Peaches do better because they dont really.

Peach can chain grab falcon from about 20% - 80%, falcon can jump out after that.

 

[VA]

How about OC3 where Vidjo got 7th and SS got 13th? Also FC diamond Vidjo got 5th and Darkrain got 7th?

They were admittedly a while ago but I'm not sure Vidjo plays much anymore. But yeah, two solid examples of Peach placing above Falcon. I also recently watched Cort beat Shiz at Fast1. Shiz being the best Falco around right now.

I think there is a case to say that Peach usually does slightly better, anyway it doesn't matter that really isn't my point. I think by now we've established that Peach > Falcon.

 

[Mr P]

How about OC3 where Vidjo got 7th and SS got 13th? Also FC diamond Vidjo got 5th and Darkrain got 7th?

They were admittedly a while ago but I'm not sure Vidjo plays much anymore. But yeah, two solid examples of Peach placing above Falcon. I also recently watched Cort beat Shiz at Fast1. Shiz being the best Falco around right now.

I think there is a case to say that Peach usually does slightly better, anyway it doesn't matter that really isn't my point. I think by now we've established that Peach > Falcon.

Ok big deal, there's a couple of examples of vidjo placing slightly higher at a couple of tournies, i know there's tournies where darkrain has placed higher or whatever but the point is that generally they place around the same level in tournies. And cort beating shiz doesnt mean anything, shiz sucks against peach its a favourable matchup and cort is better so it means nothing.

I hate to do this but the overall majority of the top players think that falcon is a better character than peach, m2k,pc and cort all do anyway. I think you are a bit niave of what falcon is capable of tbh by the things you have said about him vs the top tiers. a year ago i would probably have agreed with you but looking at it more closely i think they are very close (i even voted peach higher when i helped create this list). Falcons learning curve is steep and at high levels of play he can be very effective compared to what he is at a mediocre level.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5220354&postcount=42538

 

[VA]

I can't be bothered to argue with you about this anymore. That come back was pretty feeble imo, you questioned my argument and I came back with actual tournament standings to back up my point, you just say "I know darkrain wins, they place the same". Big tournaments like OC3 and FC aren't that frequent so I using the most recent ones as examples is fairly valid.

I accept that I haven't been playing that long and as such my opinion is less considered that those that have been playing a while. But as it stands, Peach is slightly better than Falcon in my mind. That probably won't change, but as Paul pointed out your opinion is even less likely to change so cluttering this thread up isn't worth it.

 

[Mr P]

I can't be bothered to argue with you about this anymore. That come back was pretty feeble imo, you questioned my argument and I came back with actual tournament standings to back up my point, you just say "I know darkrain wins, they place the same". Big tournaments like OC3 and FC aren't that frequent so I using the most recent ones as examples is fairly valid.

I accept that I haven't been playing that long and as such my opinion is less considered that those that have been playing a while. But as it stands, Peach is slightly better than Falcon in my mind. That probably won't change, but as Paul pointed out your opinion is even less likely to change so cluttering this thread up isn't worth it.

i cant be that bothered argueing about it anymore either if i could be bothered then i would look up darkrains tournament history for you but i "cant be bothered" either so that's that. I think the point is that there is no real discernable difference between both peach and falcon. And as PC's opinion shows it's pretty subjective, the tier list might say one thing but his opinion says something else as do each of our own. The only thing that is clear is that they are both on a similar level.

I'm sure you had a very nice little conversation with paul about it on msn but i have no idea what pauls opinion about my opinion has to do with anything, it's meaningless. It's just as true i'm not going to convince you either so whatever. And im not bias, when i voted for this tier list i put peach in top tier and i had ice climbers above falcon in high tier it's just that my opinion has changed over time.

 

[VA]

yes I had a lovely conversation with paul, it had nothing to do with you. It wasn't about your opinion, it was about mine. PC's opinion is not definitive to me. HugS thinks Marth is the worst match up for Samus where as conventional wisdom says sheik.

I'm done here.

*unsubscribe*

 

[Cpt.Zeppo]

Aye I just said that no-one is liable to compromise their opinion and I dont find tiers earth-shatteringly important, but at the end of the day we're all nice guys and I think it'd be fair to say that Peach and Falcon are very close.

 

[Retroking2000]

Lol why does people on here care about Tiers ?

 

[VA]

corrected: why do people care about tiers?

and people like discussing smash cos it's interesting. go home.

 

[Professor Pro]

VA you are in the wrong.

 

[VA]

care to elborate homes?

 

[Professor Pro]

Just felt like saying

VA you are in the wrong.

 

[VA]

Troll .

 

[VA]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=199342

lol, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't peach above falcon? hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Plus I think it would be nice to update the PAL tier accordingly.

 

[Mr P]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=199342

lol, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't peach above falcon? hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Plus I think it would be nice to update the PAL tier accordingly.

hmm correct me if i am wrong but isn't the collective opinion of some of the idiots in the back room worth less than either mew2king's or pc's ? hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm


lol

 

[ivootjes(nr18)]

The PAL tierlist is still quite accurate if you ask me, it still represents what charachters have dominated the european tournaments. (don't know about the other pal regions)

 

[VA]

EDIT: not worth it.

ivootjes I really think there is some weight in another vote for PAL tier list. But I have no bearing on any community lol.

 

[Marc]

hmm correct me if i am wrong but isn't the collective opinion of some of the idiots in the back room worth less than either mew2king's or pc's ? hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm


lol

I'm one of those idiots, and so is M2K. =p

The new SBR tier list is obviously made for the NTSC version of the game and is mostly about the American scene.

I don't think there'll be a new PAL tier list, because:
1. This list is still quite accurate.
2. Getting everyone together was really hard and many people have quit Melee since then.

 

[VA]

I can't really contest the accuracy as my knowledge of the European tournaments < my knowledge of American events. But yeah I suppose there is no point anyway, melee is dying, peak meta game is deaddd as fuck.

 

[forkgirl]

Hey sorry this is off topic, but can someone tell me which area in Europe has the biggest melee scene right now? And are there any huge melee tourneys planned for the summer?

also, how big of a difference is there between PAL and NTSC??

 

[Marc]

The Netherlands has the best and biggest smash community. Currently there are no big tournaments planned for the summer (but there'll probably be a big one in France around February).

The differences between PAL and NTSC are definitely noteworthy for competitive players, but it's nothing huge. For example, in PAL Fox has a weaker upsmash, shorter up+B and he's lighter, Sheik can't chainthrow out of her downthrow anymore and has a weaker aerial up, Marth is lighter and his aerial down is a meteor instead of a spike etc.

 

[Fuzzyness]

shieks up air is usable in combos (****s over marth and fast fallers), falcos down air hitbox is smaller, mario is heavier, Marth's sword is slightly different (more curved or something? Frostbyte told me this), Marth stumbles when hit by a shine (thunders combo is useful), Falcon's jabs don't need to be cancelled or delayed, Ganondorf is weaker in general, IC have no freeze glitch.

that's most of the other differences. Honestly if you played it for a little bit you'd notice it's easy to adjust between versions. When us Londoners tried NTSC we got used to teching the D air against the wall instead of trying to meteor cancel it against marth..unless it's the D air combo of course >_> and all the damage differences and such are also really easy to adjust to. The game plays the same really so there's no johns =P

 

[VA]

lol those differences are a little bit wrong charles, falco has half the amount of spike shines on his dair, i.e the first 30 spike the last 30 do not (I don't know the frame data exactly), ganon loses 1% damage and big KO power on his dair and a huge knockback decrease on fair. The reason Marth falls when hit by shine is due to a weight change (lighter by 1), marth's sword is identical, uair is no longer a KO move with sheik and she loses power on usmash tipper. mario is actually 2 points lighter.

you should probably read this: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=57155

oh and it's really not easy to adjust to the versions, it's fine to play with other people who don't know the version but going from PAL to NTSC metagame is a HUGE change in playstyles and version difference. no charles, you do not understand this and cannot claim to.

 

[Fuzzyness]

dude, that's playstyles not the version differences, that means you'd have to adapt to players not the version

 

[VA]

nope. they use the differences in their game styles and that is tough to adapt to. you make it sound although the differences are just there, as if you read them and once you know what they are, you've adapted. it's way more subtle than that, they'll use a move in a place that you wouldn't expect and the result will be really confusing becuase you'll go further than you expect or whatever.

I know what I'm talking about....

 

[Joanna Dark]

I think it's easier to adapt to NTSC when you're used to PAL version, than the other way around.
When I went to America for 0C2, after 3 weeks, NTSC had became my new standard, but when I came back to France, it was really disturbing, I was doing way too many Dair lol (with falco ^^).

 

[VA]

I was in america for 3 months and after I came back it was really easy to re adjust to PAL. That's what I found. But in the case of someone like m2k who knows the game pretty much be a huge perfectly it would probably change switching versions.

 

[J03]

aye NTSC is broken

 

[Super Mari0]

I can't really contest the accuracy as my knowledge of the European tournaments < my knowledge of American events. But yeah I suppose there is no point anyway, melee is dying, peak meta game is deaddd as fuc*.

im sorry, but fuc* is not dead
people still fuc* alot even nowadays
so yeah, melee isnt dead at all, new players are coming and getting better

good example is mango, he climbed his way to the top and silent spectre is with him too
also in germany the scene is pretty active
and i dont care what happens with the american scene (i hope it lives on forever) but this scene isnt planning to ''die''

 

[VA]

yeah well I wrote that a while ago ^^

agreed scene is not dying blah blah I play all the time still xD

 

[Fuzzyness]

****it VA, think before you speak lol

 

[isthattim?]

gah, been looking for this teir list for hours thanks to the people who put it together (although i doubt they still look at this thread)

 

[Marc]

I'm still here. =p

 

[FraanTicK]

not really it depends on how good the kirby is

 

[TTTempesTTT]

WEll it does depend but even if the kirby was goodthe kirby could lose just because of its skill

 

[chris the brawler]

i don't see how these matters >__>

since these are so different and stuff there's no way they can be correct in any way...

 

[Retroking2000]

i remember looking at this thread all the time , the dicussions were so interesting.