Data Official MU thread : Breaking Clouds Limits.

[David Viran]

Low angled ftilt is bae.

 

[Wyles]

Nair is probably the best option against pik/shorties in general

 

[BJN39]

So...Hello ZSS MU thread!

The Zeldas had done a discussion on the ZSS MU, but I forgot to actually message you all here about it while it was happening, so, then we moved onto the next MU... >.<

SO I was wondering if any of you would be willing to share scores and MU tips here, and then I can tally them together with the Zeldas' scores, and give the MU data to the MU thread owner to use. If any of you could, it would be much appreciated! ^ ^

 

[DavemanCozy]

We're discussing Fox in the Lylat System:
vs

Bad matchup for Fox, imo. Click here if you agree and want to tell me why and how to play it.

 

[hiROI]

Have we discussed Ness? Because that's not the greatest match up and Florida has quite a number of Ness players.

Got 5/35+ at a tournament and got sent to losers and knocked out of tourney by Ness. I managed to 2-1 Hbox (Jiggs, Villager) and 2-0 Plup (pikachu, Rosalina) , but I used Peach against Ness because I am stump.

 

[Shaya]

I feel as if this match up is all about stage positioning to maintain... composure.
When you're at like 80-90% or above, things are really really scary. It's really unfair that his short ass, easy uair/nair out of shield punishes and dash grab spamming scrub **** is "good enough" to beat us.

But when it comes to neutral game, I don't think we lose, and if we stay centre stage and have a lead, that's all we should be thinking about. Flip Jump is -really- good at going off stage to kill his recovery, you need to be pin point and never **** this up, you want to kill him at 30% then time him out. Whatever it takes.

 

[pichuthedk]

I feel as if this match up is all about stage positioning to maintain... composure.
When you're at like 80-90% or above, things are really really scary. It's really unfair that his short ***, easy uair/nair out of shield punishes and dash grab spamming scrub **** is "good enough" to beat us.

But when it comes to neutral game, I don't think we lose, and if we stay centre stage and have a lead, that's all we should be thinking about. Flip Jump is -really- good at going off stage to kill his recovery, you need to be pin point and never **** this up, you want to kill him at 30% then time him out. Whatever it takes.

I'm a fraudulent zero suit who hates Ness with a passion and I approve of this message ; D.

 

[Moydow]

Greetings from the boards of the twin tacticians!
We've just started our discussion on over at the Robin boards' matchup thread. Any input from you guys would be much appreciated!

 

[meda9871]

HIIII!

We have just started our discussion on and we would appreciate any input to make sure we get inputs from both sides. Also because nearly all of us believe we destroy in this matchup.

Click here to agree with us or prove us wrong!

 

[pichuthedk]

Spoke with @ hiROI and sonic was one of the suggestions for the next MU, I'm gonna try to grind something together in a bit but input when you guys can I have some exp in this MU but most of them are not MeekSpeedy so it's..hard to say i've only played him once in bracket despite knowing him for so long. that fraud status =[

 

[pichuthedk]

Reserved* for later
Sonic 50:50

The blue streak speedster who supposedly rolls around at the speed of sound, We ain't got time for that so lets slow him down.

Pros for us

-Spins can be canceled with lasers based off of speed if sonic is spinning to slow he can be stunned by uncharged or charged laser.
-
-have some tools for spin dash like side b Possible zairs and pivot grab.
-able to clash with sonic's spring and possibly move and punish him on his way down just watch out for his nair.
-sonic spring edgeguards should just about never happen for zss.

-his kill throw nerfed but be cautious with rage.

Cons
-Sonic's speed is annoying as it will somewhat counter our airspeed if he travels via ground.
-his bait and punish game is better then most characters
-Disjointed f-smash and we can't really get out of his upsmash (someone confirm please)

Stages to avoid
-Lylat for the same reason you always avoid it.
-SV IIRC @DeLux or @ Shaya Said it gives Sonic a get out of jail free card (Memory Johns)
-If the Sonic catches you easily while getting away unscathed you should probably avoid delphino


Ground Game

Sonic can win here if you let him his tilts are not super amazing or anything , however if you let him continuously cross you up with run through f-tilts or his spin dash gimmicks you will quickly find your self losing ground. Sonic's dash grab and pivot grabs respectively can be somewhat hard to react to when you have little experience against him when he goes from 0-60 by the time you blink. Our tilts are good against him and although Sonic is somewhat short I feel like this is one of those MU's where you do not need to be as precise with the angle at which you F-tilt like the others. His down smash can somewhat cover your rolls if your rolling behind him or onto the stage from the ledge.


Air Game
His only aerials you probably need to worry about which also vary depending on the reason he wants to use them would be his bair/up air out of spin dashes (or out of spring) his dair is not really a threat he will more then likely be using it out of spring to get back to the ground asap couple with his Nair for the Autocancel -> jab if your in the vicinity. It is possible with poor spacing on Sonic's part for him to do his spindash , you shield it he jumps and springs (which misses you due to spacing) and he dairs like normal to the spot right infront of you or behind you. I landed some downsmashes strictly from being patient or by clashing with his spring Via up smash getting into position relatively easily.


Moves to watch out for
-Those mix up disjointed F-smashes
-Trying to flip jump to much you can and will get clipped by Upsmash or spin dash ->bairs
-Every once in a while I see Sonic players mix up their spin dash approaches with homing attack after they hit your shield and jump don't be over zealous.

 

[Macchiato]

http://smashboards.com/threads/set-ph1r3-to-the-rain-roy-matchup-discussion-peach-rosalinda-zss-6-29-15-7-15-15.406195/

We are now discussing ZSS. Please come join us and add your input. Add fuel to the ph1r3, but remember to keep it Civil.

 

[Rucent]

Spoke with @ hiROI and sonic was one of the suggestions for the next MU, I'm gonna try to grind something together in a bit but input when you guys can I have some exp in this MU but most of them are not MeekSpeedy so it's..hard to say i've only played him once in bracket despite knowing him for so long. that fraud status =[

Currently, the Sonic MU thread is discussing ZZS!
http://smashboards.com/threads/soni...0-zero-suit-samus.390575/page-7#post-19548773

I also would like to see if you of you guys/girls want to play agianst me, so we can learn from each other a bit.

 

[Honor]

Looking for things to keep in mind when play Capt. Falcon. One of the guys I spar with just seems to pull away in the 2nd half of the game and I haven't taken a set off him in weeks

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

To all Zero Suit Samus' out there, the Rosalina sub-forum has a match-up discussion thread all set up to analyze Rosalina's match-up against Zero Suit Samus. Got anything to share for the Rosalina vs. Zero Suit Samus match-up? Then head to the following thread link...

http://smashboards.com/threads/409972/

In terms of the rules, be sure to go to the directory thread.

http://smashboards.com/threads/404194/

 

[Arma_]

Damn, everyone is trying to learn about ZSS at the same time. XD

 

[Dabuz]

What is ZSS's MU spread among the top/ high tiers looking like?

 

[Shaya]

IMO:

-1:
0:
+ >=1:

 

[NickRiddle]

Pretty sure we beat Yoshi

 

[infiniteV115]

I think Sheik is -2, Diddy is -1, Yoshi is +1, Rosa is -1

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Rosa is 0 or 1 imo
Pika might be -2
I think we beat Yoshi because of superior air game.

 

[NickRiddle]

We beat Yoshi because he's easy to combo, and bair breaks DJ armor at kill%.

 

[MiniSmasher]

I may be a little late with this or I could be wrong, but I vaguely remember something interesting against Ness. I remember getting hit by a PK fire but I was able to jab between each hit of it if I DI'd downwards to keep myself grounded tricky to do that and jab though). Since ZSS's jab is frame one, it manages to come out between each hit, which stopped the Ness getting a grab and therefore the regular follow-up. Not sure how reliable this is, but it was really useful at the time. Might help the match-up a little since I know we lose it.

Edit: Just tried it out in training and your jab does come out between hits if you're not caught with a PK fire in the air. Very useful for preventing grab follow ups.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

I may be a little late with this or I could be wrong, but I vaguely remember something interesting against Ness. I remember getting hit by a PK fire but I was able to jab between each hit of it if I DI'd downwards to keep myself grounded tricky to do that and jab though). Since ZSS's jab is frame one, it manages to come out between each hit, which stopped the Ness getting a grab and therefore the regular follow-up. Not sure how reliable this is, but it was really useful at the time. Might help the match-up a little since I know we lose it.

Edit: Just tried it out in training and your jab does come out between hits if you're not caught with a PK fire in the air. Very useful for preventing grab follow ups.

Yeah that's possible and known.

 

[MiniSmasher]

Yeah that's possible and known.

Good to know I thought it probably would be, but might as well post anyway.

 

[Puff-Man]

I may be a little late with this or I could be wrong, but I vaguely remember something interesting against Ness. I remember getting hit by a PK fire but I was able to jab between each hit of it if I DI'd downwards to keep myself grounded tricky to do that and jab though). Since ZSS's jab is frame one, it manages to come out between each hit, which stopped the Ness getting a grab and therefore the regular follow-up. Not sure how reliable this is, but it was really useful at the time. Might help the match-up a little since I know we lose it.

Edit: Just tried it out in training and your jab does come out between hits if you're not caught with a PK fire in the air. Very useful for preventing grab follow ups.

Or you could just jump backwards and shoot a laser.

 

[MiniSmasher]

Or you could just jump backwards and shoot a laser.

If he's very close to you, he can grab you before you can jump out sometimes. That and if you always jump out and shoot a laser he can read it and just absorb it.

 

[Puff-Man]

If he's very close to you, he can grab you before you can jump out sometimes. That and if you always jump out and shoot a laser he can read it and just absorb it.

Ness shouldn't use PK fire up close only For Glory Ness scrubs do that. It can be punished easily. If he absorbs the laser I can punish that. For example:

Ness hits me with PK fire. I jump out of the PK fire. I shoot a laser. Ness absorbs it. When Ness absorbs something up close he won't be able to move for a small period of time. So the I get back and grab Ness.

Or you can just Nair or do anything else.

 

[NickRiddle]

Ness shouldn't use PK fire up close only For Glory Ness scrubs do that. It can be punished easily. If he absorbs the laser I can punish that. For example:

Ness hits me with PK fire. I jump out of the PK fire. I shoot a laser. Ness absorbs it. When Ness absorbs something up close he won't be able to move for a small period of time. So the I get back and grab Ness.

Or you can just Nair or do anything else.

Ness can jump/roll out of magnet immediately after absorbing something.

 

[MiniSmasher]

Ness shouldn't use PK fire up close only For Glory Ness scrubs do that. It can be punished easily. If he absorbs the laser I can punish that. For example:

Ness hits me with PK fire. I jump out of the PK fire. I shoot a laser. Ness absorbs it. When Ness absorbs something up close he won't be able to move for a small period of time. So the I get back and grab Ness.

Or you can just Nair or do anything else.

I've seen people PK Fire for a punish before and grab combo out of that.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Hey ZSS mains!

Us over at the Charizard threads are talking about the matchup between Charizard and Zero Suit Samus.

We're interested in what you think so come on over and visit.

http://smashboards.com/threads/charizard-matchup-discussion-zero-suit-samus.410561/

 

[WispBae]

OMG IT'S SO LEWWWWD IN HERE MY POOR EYES, PUT SOME CLOTHES ON!!!

Anyways, the Doggy boards are currently discussing this MU and would love your input on it!

Click this picture of Bunny Suit Samus to hop straight to the thread!

 

[pichuthedk]

I could a sworn I said something about the Ness pk fire thing...hmm must have been to either V115 a random Ness or another zss player.

The thing that sucks about that is its a trade off where there is only one counter and that's a well timed dash attack .

The % you take for doing that seems to not be worth it unless you were for example like at the ledge and he had done so from the air while recovering high.

 

[Trifroze]

COME OAHWN: http://smashboards.com/threads/come-ahwn-captain-falcon-mu-thread-lap-8-zss.399692/

Falcon boards are discussing the ZSS matchup, do drop by to give your input.

 

[andrebound]

I need help with the luigi matchup if anyone has any experience and advice?

 

[infiniteV115]

I need help with the luigi matchup if anyone has any experience and advice?

Here's a video that will probably help, it's me beating one of the best (if not the best) Luigi player in NA
And here's me beating him again

Generally you'll want to use short hops at neutral, whether empty, or with nair/bair. Nair/bair are super safe on Luigi's shield because of how far he slides. You can also generally short hop over fireballs and punish him for shooting them out, though it depends on the positioning (ie it doesn't always work). And of course if you connect with a sh nair/bair, that's good damage and nair sets up for followups. Just be careful with your shorthops cause he can challenge these with sh fair, or just run up usmash, so be ready for both of those.

Don't use lasers at neutral; fireball goes through them (I think) and they're pretty laggy.

All this sh pressure conditions Luigi to shield; he'll run in and shield as a method of closing the gap if you're short hopping all the time and you're punishing him for shooting fireballs. This allows you to occasionally throw out empty hop --> grabs, cause ZSS converts off grabs really well (and dthrow uair is guaranteed at high % and kills at around 135, pretty reliable kill option against Luigi). Just, obviously, be careful with the grabs. But yeah that's your general gameplan; condition with short hops and punish him for shooting fireballs.

If he does happen to hit you with a fireball, ZSS can actually jab before he can connect with the dash grab. And if it hits you shortly after he's shot it (ie it's still close to his body and he's still in the fireball-shooting animation), you can punish with other stuff (ftilt/dtilt/dash attack)

All of Luigi's aerials are unsafe on shield; if he lands into your shield with any aerial, you can punish with upB OoS, utilt or jab. Usmash will also work if they're right next to you (and also against a rising sh fair), I wouldn't risk going for shieldgrab though.

If you have trouble dealing with Luigi's anti-juggle game (ie you have trouble juggling him with uairs cause he keeps breaking out with nairs/dairs/bairs/downBs), you can bait these out and safely usmash from under. Or shield and punish as mentioned above. Or just land and grab/laser/dsmash them. Or, if you don't have time to get to the ground, try positioning yourself so that you can punish them with a max-range uair or back hit of nair (cause I think these are the only two things we have that are disjointed enough to beat out these moves). I generally like to alternate between (uair --> wait for airdodge and uair) and (uair --> immediate uair), works pretty well for juggling.

When you're getting combo'd, just DI away and jump/downB away if necessary; just don't spam them and don't use them during low% dthrow combos, cause you might get clipped out of them and now you're in the air without your escape options.

The only time you shouldn't DI away is after you hit about the 80% or so mark; if you DI away and the Luigi hits you with dthrow bair you'll die super early (cause horizontal vectoring still exists), so watch out for that.

If you're getting juggled, abuse your superior air speed and your safe recovery; if need be just go offstage and tether from afar to get to the ledge, and put yourself back onstage from there. Or, just hold away the entire time and Luigi is generally too slow to catch you because of our airspeed. DownB helps here, and so do double jumps (which allow us to change our direction) and breverses, in case he DOES get close enough to you to punish your landing.

Also...never never NEVER airdodge after dthrow.

 

[andrebound]

Thank you so much, this was really helpful.

 

[Dark_Ky]

I despise Ness with a passion and the fact that my friend who likes to talk trash and has a srub mentality uses him manifests my anger even more lol

I need to know everything be beat this little ******:

- which stages should I use?
- which range should I be in?
- how should I approach him or keep him out?
- how should I DI when I am comboed?
- best way to edge-guard him?
- I have trouble vs pk-fire even though I feel like I shouldnt. I always respect it more than I think I should. whats the best way to deal with it?

and more general advices vs Ness are very much aprreciated ^^


a question on Mario:

when he grabes me and does d-tilt, d-tilt, d-tilt, ub-B: whats the best way to escape it?

 

[David Viran]

I despise Ness with a passion and the fact that my friend who likes to talk trash and has a srub mentality uses him manifests my anger even more lol

I need to know everything be beat this little ******:

- which stages should I use?
- which range should I be in?
- how should I approach him or keep him out?
- how should I DI when I am comboed?
- best way to edge-guard him?
- I have trouble vs pk-fire even though I feel like I shouldnt. I always respect it more than I think I should. whats the best way to deal with it?

and more general advices vs Ness are very much aprreciated ^^


a question on Mario:

when he grabes me and does d-tilt, d-tilt, d-tilt, ub-B: whats the best way to escape it?

https://youtube.com/watch?list=PLA0x72gyzAF1V1s2EsVmbho0_PvtyMbsD&v=Hvlvk3imOwI

https://youtube.com/watch?list=PLA0x72gyzAF1V1s2EsVmbho0_PvtyMbsD&v=u5pOZKc8dlo

Watch and learn.

 

[Tito Maas]

lol honestly I hate Ness so much. I feel like it's not even worth using the grab because I get crushed on a whiff, and he likes to play just outside the range of the grab. I feel like my only saving grace is DSmash on shielded PKT2

But I've always hated Ness.