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Data Official MU thread : Breaking Clouds Limits.

Which character should we start on first

  • Greeninja

    Votes: 21 8.8%
  • Rosalina

    Votes: 64 26.7%
  • One of the projectile spammers

    Votes: 61 25.4%
  • Little Mac

    Votes: 31 12.9%
  • Yoshi

    Votes: 35 14.6%
  • Captian Falcon

    Votes: 28 11.7%

  • Total voters
    240

pichuthedk

Smash Lord
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Sheik still destroys us.


Even or slightly in sonic's favor


Diddy still destroys us.


Shield, crouching, high frame advantage options, PSC to quick dash attacks, and aggressive forward rolls are our current top threats.
*sigh* Why do u have a feeling that even if I said mu's you would have still stated those 5 things? XD

In anycase I can agree with those but a writeup is prob needed for the sonic one.

I Can agree as well we need to get Pikachu outta the way. @BreaD- @hell-dew has 5 stocked me twice in bracket.

The second time LyLat wasn't our first stage...
 

DeLux

Player that used to be Lux
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The sooner we face our problems, the sooner we overcome them.

You see problems,
I see resolve.
 

Shaya

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Perhaps the right way to think about DeLux's style here is that he's describing how the neutral game goes, leaving it to player skill how hard you **** them if you get your punish (which should be a 0-death or you deserve to lose; basically).

HE USED TO DO THE SAME THING WITH ICE CLIMBERS IN BRAWL. I GET IT NOW.
I GET IT ALL.
IT MAKES SENSE.
QED Zero Suit is the best character in the game, maybe second after Meta Knight.
 
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DeLux

Player that used to be Lux
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Eh, I try to factor in the hurting bombs. If I only thought about neutral, I'd drop the character.

Are you ready for this?

We can't afford to be neutral. We must lose or find ourselves in our passions. Whether that passion be fear or courage, I'm not sure what to think. But I feel that whether we live or die, we must never be neutral.

Funny thing about grapes, if you put them through enough hell, they turn into some fine ass wine ;)
 
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Tobi_Whatever

あんたバカァ~!?
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Perhaps the right way to think about DeLux's style here is that he's describing how the neutral game goes, leaving it to player skill how hard you **** them if you get your punish (which should be a 0-death or you deserve to lose; basically).

HE USED TO DO THE SAME THING WITH ICE CLIMBERS IN BRAWL. I GET IT NOW.
I GET IT ALL.
IT MAKES SENSE.
QED Zero Suit is the best character in the game, maybe second after Meta Knight.
That's why ZSS always wins super hard or gets super bodied.

@ DeLux DeLux
That video was cute.
I will remember it while playing.
**** the neutral game, we don't need it.
 
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pichuthedk

Smash Lord
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Perhaps the right way to think about DeLux's style here is that he's describing how the neutral game goes, leaving it to player skill how hard you **** them if you get your punish (which should be a 0-death or you deserve to lose; basically).

HE USED TO DO THE SAME THING WITH ICE CLIMBERS IN BRAWL. I GET IT NOW.
I GET IT ALL.
IT MAKES SENSE.
QED Zero Suit is the best character in the game, maybe second after Meta Knight.
Tbh I do actually think about what DeLux says ,Alot of the time it Is some pretty deep stuff I agree with that which is why I started doing things like taking people to fd so I stop relying on platforms and work on my neutral game.
 
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Tobi_Whatever

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Tbh I do actually think about what DeLux says it's sometimes pretty deep stuff I agree with that which is why I started doing things like taking people to fd so I stop relying on platforms and work on my neutral game.

Tbh i
Thinking the Delux way helps me enjoy the game and the character more.
When he isn't occupied with saying that we lose the MU that is.
 

pichuthedk

Smash Lord
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XD well generally I lose mu's because I'm a fraud but the DeLux way of thinking makes me want to go for grand things
 

DeLux

Player that used to be Lux
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You guys keep conflating the word "thinking" with "feeling".
Just in case it's happening, don't conflate my lack of belief in matchups with a lack of faith in you or our character.
 

Shaya

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FD is honestly a pretty good ZSS stage.
On average working better for her than smashville against quite a few good characters.

Don't ever go to smashville unless you think you can chain fairs and do some down-b magic tricks reliably.
 
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BatShark

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Pikachu should be visited upon here before dealing with post-patch Diddy/Sheik. I personally think it is hands down her toughest MU. Luigi probably should be on deck too because we're going to see a lot more of him this patch period.
 

Shaya

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We can at least juggle Pika a little and he dies exceptionally early.

I think ZSS doesn't "struggle" with the short characters as much as people make out. I think on average dealing with Mii Brawler, Mario or Diddy's "heights" (due to their movesets) is often a lot more problematic. But in general I think if you're practicing in every match up in such a way that focuses on low hits to the ground, you'll be better for it (ftilts aimed downwards, thinking about how to use down tilt, dashing up-bs or up-bs out of shield, well spaced down smashes; use of side-b too).

The major issue I've had with the pikachu match up is quick attack cancelling. I haven't found what's the best way to deal with it, like another character would throw out a nair, up smash or up tilt or something, which can just win against it's low-ish priority, but ZSS doesn't have the same options here from what I've seen. Perhaps better use of our own crouching AND crawling (into shields or whatever) could help, upwards angled forward tilt maybe good for it too.
 

David Viran

Smash Lord
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Dsmash. That's a move I don't see utilized very often in neutral. Choco's the only prominent player I see use it in neutral.
 

David Viran

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Also usmash doesn't out prioritize QA? Can up b out prioritize QA with out giving you friggin RCO lag?
 

Shaya

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Probably on Up Smash? May not catch low QA's though?

Up-B is probably the best bet for hitting Pika out of a QA on our shield up close though
 
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Overswarm

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Hi, I play ZSS for funsies sometimes.

My main is Megaman.

I'd just like to let you guys know holy **** you have an excellent character. Do you even know how much bull**** a megaman player has to go through? We have to give chip damage via projectiles until you get into our neutral zone, and then we have to have some sort of mixup in order to deal damage or get around safely. Jab is never safe and is always punishable at damage range by any character you'll find in tournament except on hit -- and after the 3rd hit you're back in the neutral zone again. Did you know as ZSS you can approach with an aerial, hit them, and follow up with another move? Guaranteed?! That is insane.

With ZSS someone can do an aerial and I can grab them and punish them to death. When I call their air dodge, I get to HIT them instead of just getting better positioning.

I mean seriously, Megaman sucks overall as a character and without customs is complete garbage. With customs he gets some cool stuff that allows for you to approach and defend differently the entire match, but with ZSS? You can punish everything with dash attack or grab if it's far away or one of your zillion kill moves if it's close. You have like a 2 frame jab! You can land with a u-air and follow with a jab! Megaman might as well be bowser compared to this!

Sincerely, a megaman main that laughs at your "sheik destroys us" comment

Delux in the future said:
I feel the Megaman vs. ZSS matchup is even or slightly in Megaman's favor.
 

NickRiddle

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Hi, I play ZSS for funsies sometimes.

My main is Megaman.

I'd just like to let you guys know holy **** you have an excellent character. Do you even know how much bull**** a megaman player has to go through? We have to give chip damage via projectiles until you get into our neutral zone, and then we have to have some sort of mixup in order to deal damage or get around safely. Jab is never safe and is always punishable at damage range by any character you'll find in tournament except on hit -- and after the 3rd hit you're back in the neutral zone again. Did you know as ZSS you can approach with an aerial, hit them, and follow up with another move? Guaranteed?! That is insane.

With ZSS someone can do an aerial and I can grab them and punish them to death. When I call their air dodge, I get to HIT them instead of just getting better positioning.

I mean seriously, Megaman sucks overall as a character and without customs is complete garbage. With customs he gets some cool stuff that allows for you to approach and defend differently the entire match, but with ZSS? You can punish everything with dash attack or grab if it's far away or one of your zillion kill moves if it's close. You have like a 2 frame jab! You can land with a u-air and follow with a jab! Megaman might as well be bowser compared to this!

Sincerely, a megaman main that laughs at your "sheik destroys us" comment
Sheik beats us, but I don't think it's destruction.

Also, Megaman being cheeks doesn't mean ZSS is broken. It'd be nice to have a grab faster than the average human reaction time. :(
 

David Viran

Smash Lord
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Hi, I play ZSS for funsies sometimes.

My main is Megaman.

I'd just like to let you guys know holy **** you have an excellent character. Do you even know how much bull**** a megaman player has to go through? We have to give chip damage via projectiles until you get into our neutral zone, and then we have to have some sort of mixup in order to deal damage or get around safely. Jab is never safe and is always punishable at damage range by any character you'll find in tournament except on hit -- and after the 3rd hit you're back in the neutral zone again. Did you know as ZSS you can approach with an aerial, hit them, and follow up with another move? Guaranteed?! That is insane.

With ZSS someone can do an aerial and I can grab them and punish them to death. When I call their air dodge, I get to HIT them instead of just getting better positioning.

I mean seriously, Megaman sucks overall as a character and without customs is complete garbage. With customs he gets some cool stuff that allows for you to approach and defend differently the entire match, but with ZSS? You can punish everything with dash attack or grab if it's far away or one of your zillion kill moves if it's close. You have like a 2 frame jab! You can land with a u-air and follow with a jab! Megaman might as well be bowser compared to this!

Sincerely, a megaman main that laughs at your "sheik destroys us" comment
Jab is frame 1. Sorry nitpicky.
 

Overswarm

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Sheik beats us, but I don't think it's destruction.

Also, Megaman being cheeks doesn't mean ZSS is broken. It'd be nice to have a grab faster than the average human reaction time. :(
or one that doesn't make you fly through people when you dash grab

but you know what, when you guys get a grab it wrecks people so whatever
 

pichuthedk

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or one that doesn't make you fly through people when you dash grab

but you know what, when you guys get a grab it wrecks people so whatever
Some of the wrecking is slightly DI able and once the opponents % is high enough Zss will only finish Wrecking you if your dumb and let her bait your air dodge...not to mention the fact that some chars do have some sort mobility shinanegans...
 

DeLux

Player that used to be Lux
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Hi, I play ZSS for funsies sometimes.

My main is Megaman.

I'd just like to let you guys know holy **** you have an excellent character. Do you even know how much bull**** a megaman player has to go through? We have to give chip damage via projectiles until you get into our neutral zone, and then we have to have some sort of mixup in order to deal damage or get around safely. Jab is never safe and is always punishable at damage range by any character you'll find in tournament except on hit -- and after the 3rd hit you're back in the neutral zone again. Did you know as ZSS you can approach with an aerial, hit them, and follow up with another move? Guaranteed?! That is insane.

With ZSS someone can do an aerial and I can grab them and punish them to death. When I call their air dodge, I get to HIT them instead of just getting better positioning.

I mean seriously, Megaman sucks overall as a character and without customs is complete garbage. With customs he gets some cool stuff that allows for you to approach and defend differently the entire match, but with ZSS? You can punish everything with dash attack or grab if it's far away or one of your zillion kill moves if it's close. You have like a 2 frame jab! You can land with a u-air and follow with a jab! Megaman might as well be bowser compared to this!

Sincerely, a megaman main that laughs at your "sheik destroys us" comment
Megaman wins the matchup outright.
 

Overswarm

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If 'lemons' is reasoning for anything, the reasoning is incorrect. Lemons aren't safe unless you're short hopping backward. You can just slowly remove the stage behind Megaman and force him to do something. If he jabs even once and isn't short hopping backwards, he can be punished. Ganon can punish megaman. Bowser can punish megaman. Megaman's jab is a "brick wall"; it seems annoying and unstoppable, like jigglypuff's back-air in Melee, but ultimately just requires patience and a little knowledge to beat.
 

Shaya

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Pellets negate ZSS' trap game significantly as they're very potent as a horizontal tool (which is ZSS' main diction).

ZSS can reliably dash attack and zair Megaman ALL day, but the reward for her punishes are really average.
She cannot reliably (I would go as far to say she can't use them AT ALL) nair, grab, paralyzer or down smash megaman.
We can't afford to challenge your back air in the air and this is also an issue for us in many ways (recovering / getting back on stage).

As a small character your pellets cover our every angle but up airing below you. Short of the dash attack position, we don't actually have a way to force you into the air in a way we can capitalize on. Back air can beat us coming from below him often as well.

ZSS has issues with shields and Megaman is likely the best character in the game against ZSS at making her despise their existence. Diddy holding a banana may be worse.
 
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Overswarm

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You guys should play Megaman for like a day. Megaman has no OoS options but grab -- none. If he's holding a metal blade he can hit you for 5 to 10%, but that requires a metal blade in hand.

ZSS can dance around like mad and all our punishes will be grab -> hope you mess up and we get another hit.

If megaman uses pellets and you aren't using a move, jump over and hit him with your nair. If megaman is in the air, he has a giant blind spot beneath him. Play him like ROB in Brawl. Short hop aerial to force an air dodge, then u-tilt or grab and put him back up in the air. Repeat.

Megaman isn't hopeless in the matchup, but ZSS' biggest weaknesses here is that she shouldn't be using paralyzer at all in this matchup. Stick to nair, jab, f-tilt, u-air, bair, to a lesser extent fair, and dair to the groudn whenever Megaman chases with a double jump.

When Megaman gets to 110% you can go for a d-smash in some situations (like calling a roll or get up from ledge, rolling behind megaman's drop off jump nair from ledge, rolling behind a called f-smash, other random situations) and then fox trot to up+b to catch them when they pop out of the d-smash.

Megaman's entire gameplan in every matchup is "get chip damage from people trying to rush down too quickly", then to jab just outside of max range so you can't punish and hope you run into them, then wait for you to commit to something so MM can shield grab, then try to corral them with danger wrap, u-air, metal blade, and f-smash until we get you off stage.

If you walk, don't run, megaman can't hurt you from across the stage. If Megaman ever jumps at metal blade range (for the guaranteed blade -> grab combo), you can safely roll behind him while he is rising and then punish the telegraphed diagonal metal blade with a dash u-air or simply remain in shield if he tries to falling aerial.

Once you are just outside of his pellet range, he will start mashing jab hoping to gain 2-6%. Don't shield if you get hit, just take the damage, but you shouldn't be hit in the first place because you should be just outside his range. Every megaman in the world will, after jabbing, immediately begin a second round of jabs. Short hop nair or fair and punish his lemons, then short hop bair or bait airdodge -> bair as a mixup if your nair hits him off stage.

When megaman is on the ledge, stand just outside of getup range. Decide if you want to do a d-smash mixup. If you don't, crouch -- if megaman jumps, shield and punish his aerial. If he does a double jump, immediately jump and u-air and then fast fall u-air -> u-tilt if he air dodges. Megaman can't do anything out of a double jump to someone on the ground. If megaman stands up or rolls, he's in an awful situation and you can likely punish on reaction. At worst, megaman is put in a gamble situation. If megaman does drop off -> jab, it is punishable unless you get hit by the gun that knocks you back; this is why you crouch, because lemons will miss and you can d-tilt him while he's in the air or simply f-tilt him off stage after the third lemon.

Everyone who might play a megaman should turn on their 3DS, then jab with megaman while holding down shield. Pay attention to when he can shield. It takes forever.

Megaman have a metal blade in his hand? Camp. He can't do anything unless you let him hit you. If he jumps, he's going to z-drop it or throw it down or as he's landing. Each one is telegraphed. Don't stand under him and all he can do is throw it as he's landing -- dash attack him and you pick it up automatically.

Are you at high %? Megaman wants to grab and b-throw you or hit you with a back-air. Some megaman players might use f-smash, u-smash, or d-smash if you give them the situation to do so but those shouldn't work or, in the case of u-smash, ever really kill. If you're at super high %, u-smash is legit so you'll die to that. Otherwise, play it safe because there's no reason not to do so. He can't "rush down" with a kill move, so he's waiting for you to move first. Just stay outside of pellet range and punish when he tries something.

B-throw is a great kill move if you're by the ledge and at high %. It's fast too. Solution is to not get in that situation. If you're on the ledge and you jump from the ledge, Megaman has to call that with a turn around jump bair to kill you (occasionally u-smash at higher %). Be tricky with over-b and when you jump off the ledge, go towards center stage to start megaman's sisyphean task all over again. Being in the center stage is like having 30 to 40% less. Cept for u-tilt.

U-tilt is a huge punish move on hard reads. If you get hit by this, you either got metal blade combo'd or you did something silly like roll from the ledge for no reason. This move will land, but if Megaman does this and whiffs, get a d-smash and then grab, f-smash, or fox trot up+b to catch with the last hit at 110% and up.


The MU tl;dr --
  • Don't use paralyzer
  • Punish megaman's jab, don't panic shield when he hits you with a jab
  • Crouch by ledge outside of getup attack range when MM is on ledge, punish his options
  • If Megaman is in the air and uses his double jump, follow with rising u-air. He might air dodge, in which case u-air again or fast fall u-air and land.
  • Megaman is 10% dangerous when he has a metal blade in his hand on the ground. In the air he has 3 options all of which are easily dealt with. Don't get unnecessarily hit with metal blade.
  • Walk, don't run, when you aren't in punish mode
  • When at high %, avoid Megaman's kill moves and stay towards center stage.
 

Shaya

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You've given me a few things to think about in the match up but at the least I've found it very hard for ZSS to jump to actually get a nair out (which requires reaching the apex of her jump first to hit grounded opponents), similar scenario for both fair and bair.
But this could all change based on spacing pellets better. I don't really have a competent mega man to fight against anymore (my experience came from in Texas where everyone plays him) but my future endeavors in the match up included that, use of down tilt and figuring out the holes for ZSS to down-b/flip kick him.

I don't really think any of ZSS match ups are that bad, or ever did. But I still feel Megaman is a difficult match up for her at this time. Would like to see it played out more to sway my opinion.
 

pichuthedk

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@ Overswarm Overswarm insightful I'll be sure to use alot of what you noted here for the mm mu, thank you it is greatly appreciated <3.

Also glad that thing I've been talking about days into the 3ds version regarding the downsmash - > fox trot through them-> slight pause to boost kick for the final hit is catching on ;).

People always ask me how did I know when I land it on them in bracket and I just laugh and go "I invented that xD."
 

SalsaSavant

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Hey, ZSS people.
Over on the Dedede board we're learning how to Clobba (and by that, I mean be Clobba'd by) Zero Suit Samus.

Come help us out! Click D3 :4dedede:to get there
 

BatShark

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Anyone find a way to work around Pushy Lloyd that doesn't involve a notable frame disadvantage or unsafe approach? I'm...concerned.
 

pichuthedk

Smash Lord
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Anyone find a way to work around Pushy Lloyd that doesn't involve a notable frame disadvantage or unsafe approach? I'm...concerned.
I think one time I was randomly under the influence of 420 and Magically found out that we can just forward roll behind him if we are close enough to get there in time, I never really gave it much thought but you can probably stay at mid range anticipating a sh lyoid and get in-> roll behind him and just boost kick their ass everytime...

Sounds like I should lab ;p.
 
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