Data Official MU thread : Breaking Clouds Limits.

[BatShark]

I think one time I was randomly under the influence of 420 and Magically found out that we can just forward roll behind him if we are close enough to get there in time, I never really gave it much thought but you can probably stay at mid range anticipating a sh lyoid and get in-> roll behind him and just boost kick their *** everytime...

Sounds like I should lab ;p.

Unless they're going hard with the Fair walls above the Lloyd each time I feel like this is just rolling into an easy grab or dash attack or even a hard read bowling ball.

I don't ask this without having experimented extensively. It's not a problem with an aggressive Villager, but someone who wants to just play for the free chip damage, it seems really good and really free. The best counter to it I've heard is early grabs, which don't quite exist for us and our 16 frames, even with something fast like Uthrow instead.

 

[David Viran]

What about dash attack. What's pushy loid have other than the fact it keeps going. Like does it have less start up or something I don't have it unlocked yet.

 

[BatShark]

It has a truckload of HP, a larger hitbox, and is slow, which is actually a benefit because if you're stuck in shield against it you're there for quite a while unless you're rolling forward.

Dash sometimes works if they use it way too close to you, but if you overextend for it you're eating a punish.

Just giving me a lot of problems when the Villager plays away with it and not so aggressive that it invalidates much of the benefit. Would love to see someone dealing with it properly vs. a Villager that actually plays it well.

 

[LeopardTalon]

Was Little Mac discussed? I'm having a good amount of trouble against a friend who plays him.

 

[NickRiddle]

Was Little Mac discussed? I'm having a good amount of trouble against a friend who plays him.

What does your friend do that is problematic for you?

 

[BatShark]

ZSS has the tools to deal with Little Mac, you just need to respect the roll. Space so that he doesn't get free rolls behind you as you bulldog him toward the end of the stage with paralyzer, and don't get your grabs baited by his speed and fake approaches.

 

[LeopardTalon]

What does your friend do that is problematic for you?

It's more so in doubles that he troubles me. I have a hard time fighting him in close quarters as I don't want to hit my partner with any of my moves. His moves are just so strong and launch me pretty far off the stage.

 

[DeLux]

I think Little Mac is even or slightly in ZSS's favor.

 

[Cinestra]

Hey guys I was wondering if we could discuss ZSS's match-up against Mario and Pikachu because they're two characters that generally give me some trouble.

I wouldn't consider Mario overpowered by any means, but his cape is extremely annoying to go up against. I try to mix up my lasers so that it's harder for him to cape them, but it leads me to just simply not using my lasers as much. I'm currently practicing B reversials for even further laser mix up against him, but her turn around in the air is still really weird for me. Furthermore, I usually have trouble killing him because I'm not really sure what moves are good to safe to punish. My friend likes to throw out his smash moves a lot, and it's actually pretty hard for me to punish effectively since by the time I dash over to him, he can throw another one out. A lot of his moves come out very fast for me and I'm not able to Up-B out of shield or Down-smash to Up-B or FSmash. I've been really trying to work on my RAR to make it another viable kill move though. My friend also likes to approach with dash attack into immediate jab combo... which I'm actually having a really hard time punishing. If his jab combo hits my shield, he usually continues to just do another jab combo. The only punish I can really successfully pull off is doing a jab combo immediately after his jab combo. I'm not able to shield grab his dash attacks for some reason because he usually just slides past me or because he throws out his jabs so quickly. I think in short I have trouble just punishing and killing Mario because I'm not sure what to punish and because I'm not able to get as many free follow-ups due to the fact that I can't use my laser as much.

I don't really have as much match up knowledge against PIkachu but it's still pretty annoying to face. I think the most annoying this is how short Pikachu is, which makes it a lot harder for me to hit the pikachu with a SHFF Nair. I know it's possible to still hit the pikachu with a SHFF Nair but I think it's a ton harder because it's so short. Pikachu in general is just a really good character in my opinion and i just have a hard time with it. What are some good moves to punish and how should I approach Pikachu now that SHFF isn't really as good? I don't think lasers are the best approach option just because Pikachu can just camp with jolts, but i'm not sure.

 

[DeLux]

I think the Mario MU is even or slightly in Mario's favor. Possibly significantly in Mario's favor with the correct customs.
Pikachu destroys ZSS.

 

[BatShark]

It hasn't been my experience that Mario is too troublesome, even w/speed fireball custom. Do your best to avoid the grab, especially early (of course this entails also working around fireballs intelligently) and just outrange him in the air and on the ground. If you can do that, not fall into his Usmash landing traps, and just generally avoid rolling into his smashes, I think it's perfectly fine and even slightly in our favor.

Pikachu on the other hand is her worst matchup IMO, and I don't think it's very close.

 

[Shaya]

Mario's just really annoying. Short height, really good speed, combo's us very well, can camp in shield and get gains out of them. Can handle us air vs air.

Pikachu is easy because he dies at 50% and holding shield forever against him is pretty alright because even with grab follow ups his damage per hit is usually pathetic. If you don't ever try to challenge back air EVER EVER EVER, you can maybe have a pretty even-ish neutral game

I think the most annoying stat any character has against ZSS is aerial mobility (well, character height too). A character without snowballing grab game/kill throw nor aerial mobility to weave/avoid combos is pretty easy mindset wise in tournament.

 

[BatShark]

Don't get impatient and know when you can emergency flip kick out of his combos. No % grab typically means two Utilts then you GTFO. He's not fast enough to cover anywhere on the stage in this situation the way Sheik and Falcon can.

The Pikachu's I play don't let me get away with holding shield, they are constantly looking for it since they're used to following up jolts into grab and regrabbing after combos. I still struggle with QA vs. him and he probably has the scariest jab lock in the game, so don't ever miss your techs.

 

[Shaya]

Up Air, Down Air, sometimes nair :< Mario's mobility in general is pretty good. His better vertical juggling than sheik and his smaller stature than both of them works out for him.

Probably a whole different world with customs Pika I guess. I don't deny it's probably our toughest match up in terms of getting in, but he's relatively easy to follow up/trap once you get in and dies excessively early. I play it very slow and don't really let myself lose my cool even if i'm at a deficit. Main thing I'm worrying about is Up Smash. All I need is chip damage and up-b out of shield at around 80% (assuming rage, it hits low to the ground).

 

[Dalxp26]

Just out of curiosity, what would you guys say are ZSS worst match ups?

 

[NickRiddle]

Sheik
Pikachu
Olimar

 

[M@v]

Just out of curiosity, what would you guys say are ZSS worst match ups?

Definitely Sheik. Worst matchup for her IMO.

Loses to Fox imo but its at worst 4:6
Mayyyyyy lose to Falcon too, but if she does, its 45:55 or 4:6.

Don't have enough Exp vs ZSS vs Pika and Olimar to make a judgement on those.


P.S. As for Mario, I think that one's even. Both characters have a hard time approaching each other as both are great at zoning each other out.

 

[DeLux]

Just out of curiosity, what would you guys say are ZSS worst match ups?

Players that refuse to leave the ground and leverage shield and forward roll against grab attempts.

 

[Shaya]

Emphasis on the players part.

 

[DeLux]

Yea, outside of a few exceptions (pika, sheik, diddy, olimar, kirby), I don't think she has particularly bad or good matchups, a lot of evenish. A lot of comes down to more if your opponent is determined to be an asshat and never leave the ground. If you can force her to HAVE to grab to win and you can string together more than like 15-20 damage and/or you can kill her on a whiff grab punish, you will probably win.

 

[David Viran]

https://youtube.com/watch?v=Qm-OUGofDWY

Nairo vs Esam

He uses zss in the last half of the video. It's online but it's the closest thing we've got.

 

[Wyles]

Sheik is whacky. The only thing you shouldn't do is challenge her in the air since her aerials beat ours. A lot of baits and patience. We kill her faster too.

Pika can suck my *******

 

[David Viran]

Not completely true. We straight out range her in the air.

 

[Wyles]

Do we have a move that the beats Sonics Spin Dash/Charge?

 

[Cheetaboy]

..........

 

[Shaya]

Do we have a move that the beats Sonics Spin Dash/Charge?

Dash grab (they have to jump to avoid) or paralyzer are my two go tos. Especially paralyzer.

 

[David Viran]

Do we have a move that the beats Sonics Spin Dash/Charge?

Ftilt.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

https://youtube.com/watch?v=Qm-OUGofDWY

Nairo vs Esam

He uses zss in the last half of the video. It's online but it's the closest thing we've got.

That makes me moist

 

[Shaya]

How good are Nairo's flip jumps?

 

[Muffin!]

I don't really see why everyone seems to think the sheik matchup is so bad. I think Sheik wins the matchup, but we have a few advantages over sheik players. Maybe I just haven't played a great sheik yet.

I think pika is her worst matchup. Short players destroy ZSS and pika is the best of the short characters. can't challenge him off stage, and he all but eliminates your out of shield game.

 

[David Viran]

I don't really see why everyone seems to think the sheik matchup is so bad. I think Sheik wins the matchup, but we have a few advantages over sheik players. Maybe I just haven't played a great sheik yet.

I think pika is her worst matchup. Short players destroy ZSS and pika is the best of the short characters. can't challenge him off stage, and he all but eliminates your out of shield game.

Eliminate oos game? We can potentially punish any of his moves on our sheild. Wait are you talking about how his hurt box is when he lands. Usmash oos and up b oos still work you know. Especially oos up b because he's so light and can die so early. Ftilt angled low can actually work pretty well too.

 

[DeLux]

Pikachu seems easy until she fairs or bairs you off stage and FF's.
Then you realize how hard the fight against gravity and electricity actually can be.

Oh and the blender destroys us lol

 

[Muffin!]

Eliminate oos game? We can potentially punish any of his moves on our sheild. Wait are you talking about how his hurt box is when he lands. Usmash oos and up b oos still work you know. Especially oos up b because he's so light and can die so early. Ftilt angled low can actually work pretty well too.

You can potentially punish anything, but the key word is potentially. I'd have to test it but I'm pretty sure all of our decent OOS options whiff on pikachu if he's doing anything but standing still. Usmash connects, but that's only if he's right on top of you plus it has a 10 frame startup. All of pikachu's shield pressure moves are less than 10 frames. Only think I think you could use Usmash for is punishing a blocked Dsmash or an opponent that's just standing there because of a technical flub or something. Not sure about boost kick. Anyone know the frame data on it?

 

[NickRiddle]

Pikachu is hard. Going to really grind the MU out with ESAM so I make sure not to lose to any others.

Yo... ROB though... that character is so free...

 

[David Viran]

You can potentially punish anything, but the key word is potentially. I'd have to test it but I'm pretty sure all of our decent OOS options whiff on pikachu if he's doing anything but standing still. Usmash connects, but that's only if he's right on top of you plus it has a 10 frame startup. All of pikachu's shield pressure moves are less than 10 frames. Only think I think you could use Usmash for is punishing a blocked Dsmash or an opponent that's just standing there because of a technical flub or something. Not sure about boost kick. Anyone know the frame data on it?

Up b cannot be ducked under.

 

[Muffin!]

Up b cannot be ducked under.

It can't be ducked under but the question is whether or not it's viable given the frame data and pika's moveset. My point is that against a pika actively applying shield pressure with jabs and tilts you don't really have many options since everything is either too high or too slow.

 

[David Viran]

Same rules apply he misspaces oos up b will hit.

 

[Arma_]

Pikachu is hard. Going to really grind the MU out with ESAM so I make sure not to lose to any others.

Yo... ROB though... that character is so free...

Hype, deliver us from the tyranny of Pikachu Nick Riddle! I seriously think it's her worst matchup by far. D:

 

[Wyles]

I'm kinda have an easier time with Pikachu by playing more aggressive, less grabby, and low use of the neutral B.

But let's be honest. She doesn't need her paralyzer to be stunning. 8-)

 

[M@v]

Do we have a move that the beats Sonics Spin Dash/Charge?

Ftilt is the most useful one. Paralyzer, nair, and zair.

Jab cancels with it, and I believe side b does too, but you shouldn't be using side b to try to stop a spin dash.

As for pika, have people tried using down angled ftilts if he's trying to duck a lot? Also I like dtilt a lot, ftilt is safer despite having slightly less range.