Data Official MU thread : Breaking Clouds Limits.

[Shaya]

I just don't see where you're coming from with that instant 40:60 drop into "30:70 with customs". You aren't willing to articulate an argument on why, I doubt you'd have videos to justify your customs stance either.

You can look at that video with the same perspective I do and think "yeah holy crap the tilt/choke". We can talk about tools or our own match up experiences (albeit it not necessarily high/top level). With a similar "deception" I can make out Choco is not even remotely at the same level of Dabuz due to Apex results, but I think we can agree to why that's an unfair use of 'facts'.

At a base level Rosalina has three things that Zero Suit tends to not do badly against
Large / Tall Characters,
that are lightweight
and that don't have mobility.

Rosa's safety/kill power with Luma, amazing landing traps and range obviously give ZSS things to fear.
If it is "40:60" from what tool spread we're seeing from Choco, then how much better would it be when you consider zair's poking/free hit confirm follow up and solid knowledge of what you can flip kick (not just off stage stuff, but for example Rosa starting multijab, dash attacks, warping and side-b).

 

[Jaxas]

and solid knowledge of what you can flip kick (not just off stage stuff, but for example Rosa starting multijab, dash attacks, warping and side-b).

Can you do this on reaction, or do you have to do it slightly before/on a read?

 

[DeLux]

I did articulate the difference. You can't play strictly keep away to avoid engaging at neutral where we lose since the customs gives her a 4.5% laser and a sneak attack star.

If ZSS can grind it out in order to circumvent neutral, it makes the matchup up substantially more manageable. However, having to go head on is disastrous.

 

[Shaya]

Can you do this on reaction, or do you have to do it slightly before/on a read?

Multijabbing seems reactable, so would side-b.

I did articulate the difference. You can't play strictly keep away to avoid engaging at neutral where we lose since the customs gives her a 4.5% laser and a sneak attack star.

If ZSS can grind it out in order to circumvent neutral, it makes the matchup up substantially more manageable. However, having to go head on is disastrous.

I didn't mean keep away as much as she can safely attack Rosa through standard play patterns and looks at a grounded Rosa as "dash in fears vs free zair pressure/follow ups" . Customs definitely could change a lot for hurting the neutral between them.

 

[DeLux]

Just so we're clear, I'm pretty convinced that the best way for ZSS to win a lot of MU's that are "bad" because our neutral is so ass is to play keep away until they get frustrated or sequenced and then give them the business. Rosa's non-neutral option limitation hitbox kit makes that pretty reliable / plausible as a strategy. However once the warp and lucky charms are in play, it removes that mobility based keep away as a sequencing agent since she can now cover that style of play.

 

[Shaya]

Luma Warp slightly outranges ZSS zair, but they're both comparable length tools. I think playing within your 'long range' of zair does save you from immediate warp jabs stuff. It's just dealing with shooting star piece.

Take this "flow chart" of events.
Within Warp range, about 1/5rd of your zair in would be ideal position probably
situation: Shield single luma star bit
jump
1. FF back into the ground (probably shield) [baiting ****]
2. Zair -> this is better/safer depending on how high off the ground Luma is, on the low it's easy to space to hit Rosa's head, different heights bring difficulties and you'll probably lose out unless you're dodging the star bit with your jump height. There is air dodge into zair, something I tend to avoid myself as it carries over air dodge lag (not sure of the timing to AC it) but it's a possibility. If you get a zair hit on luma, she's definitely stunned long enough to land safely, if you also hit rosa you should be able to dash grab safely (dash attack can you get you hitlag screwed).
3. Flip Jump/Kick. Note that I said jump first, with a just off the ground flip jump you can jump/act again before landing. Shooting bit looks a little less laggy than Falco's laser, but it's probably not too much different, but that is definitely something that can be kicked. You can also retreat away with it and maybe take the 4.5% of it (or dash attack if they're frisky, frisky is good for us though) or suddenly be in front of her face and try jab/up tilt win.

I think with good reaction speed and really patient timing, you can find openings through "just this situation" (the 3 points I think are valid-ish in most spacing with Rosa situations; it's the Least risk/reward to highest risk/reward). I think you can play to minimalise the dangers of Warp just by the positioning point.

 

[BatShark]

Have you tried Blast Shot with customs on? How did that fare?

 

[DeLux]

blast shot is terrible

 

[BatShark]

So you've tried it, then?

 

[pichuthedk]

Luma Warp slightly outranges ZSS zair, but they're both comparable length tools. I think playing within your 'long range' of zair does save you from immediate warp jabs stuff. It's just dealing with shooting star piece.

Take this "flow chart" of events.
Within Warp range, about 1/5rd of your zair in would be ideal position probably
situation: Shield single luma star bit
jump
1. FF back into the ground (probably shield) [baiting ****]
2. Zair -> this is better/safer depending on how high off the ground Luma is, on the low it's easy to space to hit Rosa's head, different heights bring difficulties and you'll probably lose out unless you're dodging the star bit with your jump height. There is air dodge into zair, something I tend to avoid myself as it carries over air dodge lag (not sure of the timing to AC it) but it's a possibility. If you get a zair hit on luma, she's definitely stunned long enough to land safely, if you also hit rosa you should be able to dash grab safely (dash attack can you get you hitlag screwed).
3. Flip Jump/Kick. Note that I said jump first, with a just off the ground flip jump you can jump/act again before landing. Shooting bit looks a little less laggy than Falco's laser, but it's probably not too much different, but that is definitely something that can be kicked. You can also retreat away with it and maybe take the 4.5% of it (or dash attack if they're frisky, frisky is good for us though) or suddenly be in front of her face and try jab/up tilt win.

I think with good reaction speed and really patient timing, you can find openings through "just this situation" (the 3 points I think are valid-ish in most spacing with Rosa situations; it's the Least risk/reward to highest risk/reward). I think you can play to minimalise the dangers of Warp just by the positioning point.

Well I actually forgot to put that much expression regarding zair for this mu zair IMO is definitely going to be our bread and butter the need to snipe luma like Choco did in that one tourney along with the pressure from things like side b's/downsmashes potential to true combo luma to death.

We need more high level footage to argue this though I just feel like it can go either way depending on what they choose to do when pressured with zair, I also believe things like max ranged zair hit confirms provide a safer window of opportunity to get a dash attack canceled grab since luma will be slightly dazed from the hit letting up grab and pummel both of them.

Pondering how useful up throw is since she flips over and might have a big enough hitbox to knock the **** out of luma in the process granted he's close enough.

I checked out the warp star custom and am also curious @ DeLux @NickRiddle @Dakpo
if we are spaced correctly can we not downsmash /pp downsmash on reaction when we see Rosa twirl her waND or something ?

*sigh* just my luck my friend who Mains Rosa is mad at me so I prob won't get that lab work Done anytime soon.

 

[Shaya]

Also forget to mention if you grab infront of luma, you pull Rosa in front, it's why zair is so good because it stuns Luma long enough (whilst a pure dash attack attempt like that could get you in trouble). I feel like it isn't something too "real", but Rosa players panic a little about their immediate options; most characters grabbing Rosa are doing so exposed to Luma.

 

[pichuthedk]

Also forget to mention if you grab infront of luma, you pull Rosa in front, it's why zair is so good because it stuns Luma long enough (whilst a pure dash attack attempt like that could get you in trouble). I feel like it isn't something too "real", but Rosa players panic a little about their immediate options; most characters grabbing Rosa are doing so exposed to Luma.

Yeah that's why I mentioned grabbing and pummeling to hurt both if them I can't really just remember if Luma can not attack while she's getting pummeled but it's a nice thing and yeah I have a lot of exp zairing luma both in the air or grounded for that chiP %.

I'll find a Rosa or 2 to exchange mu notes or tidbits with when I get a chance how fully I patch things up with boy...

 

[JTsm]

Choco Choco he's our man

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-6QwVq8ugk

 

[pichuthedk]

Really good stuff from him , he definitely approaches certain things in the MU a lot better then I do ,Tons of room for improvement. However it makes me happy to know I snipe luma on a framely basis (lame jokes are lame) like some of the things he did in that set. People still seem to underestimate the fact that the character is not the character anymore if you continuously kill luma every 13.5 seconds Luma's knock back or DPS doesn't mean anything if he's not there to hit you.

My favorite thing from that set was near the end I decided to watch it at .5 speed so that i spend more time watching it and Choco threw out this "Did i say you can up b to the ledge?" down tilt when Rosa was coming in for a ledge snap, It kinda looked like he miss spaced grabbing the ledge but I unno. + all that back air pressure god damn that needs to be worked on by me.

Anyways thanks for sharing that I gotta remember to add that side b hits luma even if rosa shields it way to lazy atm though.

What MU you guys think we should start next? I'm apparently a fraud and lost to a sonic yesterday in a single elim, anyone else having problems trying to "go fast" ?

 

[DeLux]

I think we should discuss Sheik

 

[David Viran]

We need to expand our horizons. I say sanic.

 

[Shaya]

Sheik playing like she does against most characters "i.e. cannot handle the frame data/range/CQC pressure" is probably 55:45 our advantage. Straight up, Sheik does worse than us in every way bar grab in that paradigm.

Sheik playing the match up properly? Heavily defensive based / aiming for time outs? 40:60 disadvantage.
Needles, crouching and the amazingness of her ftilt/jab against our air antics and the constant need to respect fair outspeeding our horizontal options a lot and bair just cleanly beating most things horizontally/vertically too.

ZSS striking first seems to always lose out, while Sheik striking first seems to always lose out.
Some custom choices may make this better for us, who knows.

 

[BatShark]

Sonic is rough because the style with which individual players use him varies wildly compared to much of the rest of the cast. I'm not sure yet of the best way to approach defensive-minded Sonic players that just get to repeat their approach mixups until we either read for a punish or just dig in for the potential timeout. Otherwise you're just chasing his stupid ass and getting boned for it.

 

[Shaya]

I strike smashville against Sonic.
FD is a really really good stage against him/usually one sided in my experience.

Smashville lets sonic charge a spin dash for long time, then run through the stage with invincibility then have the option to jump onto the platform and edge cancel it if you're actually hard reading that or just start the spin dash again, which while on the moving platform is bait-city. Sorry for how this paragraph is worded, but just think of that moving platform as Sonic's get out of jail free card while we chase him (which we have the mobility to do in almost every situation/stage otherwise).

When things aren't 'moving' for him, stuff like well spaced zairs on the charge is exceptionally safe and if you bait them into fully charging the spin dash they can't shield cancel it, so paralyzer charges becomes an approach/jump in option too, which always gets us what we want.

Sonic has issues with landing and I find it easy to just [dash] grab on expected landing times a lot too. He'll probably have a hard time getting a punish that detrimental to us if he does somehow air dodge through it (fsmash is the worst, otherwise a dash grab will be the usual thing and besides back throw boyz, it isn't much of a risk imo). Up smash is also solid for catching his landings too and resets it continually.

Jab OoS is reliable on him too. Up Tilt leg invincibility isn't something he's a fan of either.

 

[DeLux]

I think we lose to sonic 45-55 with no customs. Probably about a 40-60 with customs on.

Admittedly from a results standpoint, the MU has been pretty even at the top level without customs. Hammer spin dash is pretty terrifying once people figure out what to do with it in the customs metagame.

Having polled most of the top ZSS's on it, I think my opinion is the minority one, although I'm not the only one that thinks it's even or we lose.

 

[M@v]

I think ZSS beats sonic; sheik I'm not sure, but I will ask this: What the hell is ZSS supposed to do against needles? ;_;

 

[David Viran]

I think ZSS beats sonic; sheik I'm not sure, but I will ask this: What the hell is ZSS supposed to do against needles? ;_;

PS or punish with flip jump.

 

[pichuthedk]

Well we can only flip jump fully charged needles safely imo maybe on super quicky reaction...

So my issue with shiek tends to be the crazy CQC pressure she does along with the "by the way I just hit your shield and now I'm underNeath you." Since the zss problem is getting pushed to the ledge (especially when your bad like me).

I lost to kid goggle's shiek and I did have him crouch dodge a few things and even discovering he could reduce stun lag on zss' s moves with holding down Mid match g2.


Day after that I faced a sonic, I just played out bf because I was tired of smash vile and was not to sure I wanted to deal with fd.

Just a few things I noticed aside from being discouraged after a last hit last stock g1.

He was getting away alot with the typical spin dash -> up b -> dair (even though I was shielding it) but what made it even more antagonizing was him just throwing out nair so he could land even safer ASAP (To damn fast or I'm way to slow)

Tried my best to punish his spin dash approaches while maintaining safe laser distance since sanic goes 0-60 real quick.

Funding out later that he can just toll you and immediate homing attack after hoping a bit higher.

Anyways I'm a fraud working on my custom training stage which is pretty horrid atm.

@Tobi_Whatever wheres the true combo video bro so I can practice not being so fraudulent.

 

[David Viran]

Well we can only flip jump fully charged needles safely imo maybe on super quicky reaction...

So my issue with shiek tends to be the crazy CQC pressure she does along with the "by the way I just hit your shield and now I'm underNeath you." Since the zss problem is getting pushed to the ledge (especially when your bad like me).

I lost to kid goggle's shiek and I did have him crouch dodge a few things and even discovering he could reduce stun lag on zss' s moves with holding down Mid match g2.


Day after that I faced a sonic, I just played out bf because I was tired of smash vile and was not to sure I wanted to deal with fd.

Just a few things I noticed aside from being discouraged after a last hit last stock g1.

He was getting away alot with the typical spin dash -> up b -> dair (even though I was shielding it) but what made it even more antagonizing was him just throwing out nair so he could land even safer ASAP (To damn fast or I'm way to slow)

Tried my best to punish his spin dash approaches while maintaining safe laser distance since sanic goes 0-60 real quick.

Funding out later that he can just toll you and immediate homing attack after hoping a bit higher.

Anyways I'm a fraud working on my custom training stage which is pretty horrid atm.

@Tobi_Whatever wheres the true combo video bro so I can practice not being so fraudulent.

I just tested the holding down thing on our stuns. It only works if you crouch cancel not hold down after the stun. I can't see that ever be useful because if you can crouch you can sheild.

 

[JTsm]

I have yet to play sanic, but I don't see the MU favoring Sanic at all. Sure he's got speed, but he's predictable. He has to come to you, so you don't need to over commit approaches. I can't really say much, however.

Sheik is really dumb. I imagine Zair and Nair are useful to provide some pressure. Sheik's fair is stupid stupid stupid, especially at low %. With all this aerial pressure in mind, it's important to predict with reverse grabs, OoS punishes, and really capitalize on your strings. I think Smashville, Town and City, and maybe BF are decent stages to go to. Castle Siege can get rid of the needle problem in all 3 formations with the slants and statues. I would deff ban Halberd. That is SHEIK's stage. Not ours. Low ceiling helps them more.

 

[DeLux]

Sonic's seemingly predictable unpredictability is what makes him terrifying.

 

[pichuthedk]

I just tested the holding down thing on our stuns. It only works if you crouch cancel not hold down after the stun. I can't see that ever be useful because if you can crouch you can sheild.

Yes I knew that entirely not many people do though.

Sonic's seemingly predictable unpredictability is what makes him terrifying.

Exactly what makes him such a pain In the ass no wonder they took out the "your to slow" Taunt.

 

[David Viran]

I was thinking about the viability of punishing diddy's grabs out of spot dodge with jab or utilt or maybe even turn around jab. I know they can work if you time the spot dodge right.

 

[M@v]

Lots of jabs and ftilts vs sonic. Ftilt beats spindash and is fast. 1 frame jab always speaks for itself; it cancels out spindash, but its faster than all of his moves obviously. He can't do too much about down b spacing if you do it right honestly...yeah he's quick, but the only way you are getting punished hard is if you drift into an upsmash from him.

 

[Honor]

Choco Choco he's our man

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-6QwVq8ugk

Thanks! This was super helpful.

 

[Honor]

Also finding the Pikachu MU really annoying right now, if someone could point me in the direction of some good ZSS play or some good things to keep in mind I would really appreciate it.

 

[David Viran]

Also finding the Pikachu MU really annoying right now, if someone could point me in the direction of some good ZSS play or some good things to keep in mind I would really appreciate it.

Watch nairos zss.

 

[Honor]

Yea Nairo's been my go to for the last couple weeks while trying to take my game to a higher level. I guess I found the Pikachu MU annoying because he's so dang short. I also found it difficult to juggle him. I know part of my problem is unfamiliarity with Pikachu since very few players in my area played him in Brawl and I have yet to play anyone offline who plays him in Smash 4.

 

[David Viran]

Maybe we should like reevaluate the Diddy MU since he was hit with the nerf hammer.

 

[NimbusSpark]

Currently, the PAC-MAN Matchup Discussion Thread is analyzing Zero Suit Samus. If you have anything to say about how you think the matchup will go, feel free to post, that way we can share information and benefit from it.
This will last for approximately 5 days depending on activity, and the last two days will be used for summarising the arguments, as a way to discover how the matchup is like completely.

Have a nice day.

 

[DeLux]

Currently, the PAC-MAN Matchup Discussion Thread is analyzing Zero Suit Samus. If you have anything to say about how you think the matchup will go, feel free to post, that way we can share information and benefit from it.
This will last for approximately 5 days depending on activity, and the last two days will be used for summarising the arguments, as a way to discover how the matchup is like completely.

Have a nice day.

I think pacman is even or slightly beats ZSS

 

[Shaya]

I think pacman is even or slightly beats ZSS

Can you make a twitch-esque emoticon with you so I can start every single post I make on a match up from this point forward as "even or slightly beats ZSS :deluxflux:"

 

[pichuthedk]

Zzz ok so from what I'm seeing despite my fraudulent attendance is that the order for our next MUs is
shiek
sonic
redo the diddy
What after that ? I have shiek and some sonic exp (meek speedy put me in a body bag but I got him to 1 stock both games).

We have Nicks video for shiek and Diddy is kind of a joke now on terms of killing you for free.

My week is pretty crazy atm, working till Friday then a tournament followed by driving to Niagara Falls for another tournament saturday/Sunday.

I want to start writing up some things so if there are any other mu's let me know tag me or something.

Paxman seems like a test of true patience before anything along with how high your air dodge cancel throw level is.

What do you guys think our current top threats are outside of shiek and Rosa?

 

[BreaD-]

pikachu is hard

 

[DeLux]

Zzz ok so from what I'm seeing despite my fraudulent attendance is that the order for our next MUs is
shiek

Sheik still destroys us.

sonic

Even or slightly in sonic's favor

redo the diddy

Diddy still destroys us.

What do you guys think our current top threats are outside of shiek and Rosa?

Shield, crouching, high frame advantage options, PSC to quick dash attacks, and aggressive forward rolls are our current top threats.