Data Official MU thread : Breaking Clouds Limits.

[DeLux]

I have no idea what you are talking about anymore lol

 

[pichuthedk]

I have no idea what you are talking about anymore lol

I'm sorry bro auto correct in the morning is a god damn troll and I don't always have a lot of time to check/finish actually typing because I'm always interrupted lol...T.T

 

[Shaya]

So so on my thoughts with the Ness match up.
I don't think there's a real approach worth the risk if you're at 80% or more and Ness is just "camping" near a ledge.

If you get combo breaker'd you're doing it wrong.
Don't ****ing double jump to chase while Ness is falling you twits (remember, we have the second largest double jump in the game, don't frame trap yourself, it's simple~)

Nair on his shield is kinda worthless. It's way too easy for him to dash grab or dash attack.
INSTEAD
Dash forward, rar, nair behind his shield (with the front hitting his back), great until he nairs or uairs oos.
Not really.

I feel like if Ness didn't have his Dash attack for being long range, disjointed, fast, combo-set up, beats rolls/dodges it would 60:40 or worse, he wouldn't have a mix up game for punishes because none of his punishes are guaranteed against ZSS.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

I hate that Ness is so light.
Makes the uAir > uAir > uSpecial combo hard to connect.

 

[Katakiri]

Hey, all! The Meta Knight board is discussing Zero Suit Samus. We'd love it if you'd drop on by and share your thoughts! http://smashboards.com/threads/meta-knight-match-up-discussion-4-zero-suit-samus.392743/

 

[pichuthedk]

Hey, all! The Meta Knight board is discussing Zero Suit Samus. We'd love it if you'd drop on by and share your thoughts! http://smashboards.com/threads/meta-knight-match-up-discussion-4-zero-suit-samus.392743/

sure although I rarely see you guys ever even back when i was in my fg phase which has long since past and i've never fought any Mks in bracket either D;.

However nothing ventured nothing gained I'll give it a shot after this League game.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Hey, all! The Meta Knight board is discussing Zero Suit Samus. We'd love it if you'd drop on by and share your thoughts! http://smashboards.com/threads/meta-knight-match-up-discussion-4-zero-suit-samus.392743/

I fought a few Meta Knights and I'm willing to share what I've learned in my matches.

 

[DeLux]

I think MK wins the MU slightly. Maybe even.

 

[kuenzel]

Can there be a quick reference on the first post/page with a list of the discussed character and rough x/y matchup rating, with links to the start of the discussion for that character?
It would make navigation hella easier.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

To all Zero Suit Samus players, the Rosalina Match-Up Analysis thread is now analyzing you. If you have anything to contribute for the Rosalina vs. Zero Suit Samus match-up, the thread will be analyzing her until the end of 3/3.

 

[pichuthedk]

MU rating 5.25/10 in For Ness IMO

Ness
-Annoying second jump
-Reflector that kills you....
-Pk fire is annoying
-Projectiles that COVER literally all possible Flip jump paths.
-Have you not been fair'd for days already?
-down smash and lasers can potentially heal him!
Pros for us
-Zair beats his aerials
- Possible gimps with flip jump or lasers when hes recovering
-dair beats his up b pressure from underneath
-up airs slow wide arc can protect you from his up b when your recovering S/O to @Dakpo (I saw that set with Awestin nice **** dude)

Cons
-dash attack no longer jumps over (RIP Dash attack from brawl).
-Pk thunder forces a flip jump or you'll eat an unnecessary follow up.
-aerial trades totally not worth it. (cept bair)

Ground Game
-don't get grabbed from pk fire you will take 2 or more fairs
-if your going to laser do it from max range that way he can't surprise reflect it with fsmash.
-pivot grab his dash attacks and do the usual.

Air Game
-bair trades with his fair and can possibly set you up for follow ups.
-zair works if hes infront force air dodges and punish when landing or just hit him.
-up air doesn't always work unless you space it so you hit him diagonally his dair is kinda huge.
-
Moves to watch out for
-fsmash up close or shooting paralyser's
-dash attack grab and other followups from pk fire traps
-nair OoS if you miss space your aerials
-pivot grabs at the edge of stages just in case he has rage it might kill way earlier.

 

[David Viran]

Bair can trade with nesses fair and I would say it wins that trade.

 

[M@v]

I think MK wins the MU slightly. Maybe even.

Look, I know metaknight's under rated and all.....


....but I'm all ears on the reasoning for this.


Also, as for Ness, no matter what's decided on for the matchup ratio, being team mates with a Ness will still be better <3

 

[DeLux]

Look, I know metaknight's under rated and all.....


....but I'm all ears on the reasoning for this.


Also, as for Ness, no matter what's decided on for the matchup ratio, being team mates with a Ness will still be better <3

MK can 0 to death like 90% of the cast (including ZSS). He also has a shield and a forward roll and is tiny as hell. So in order to beat him you're gonna have to grab him, which means that it's a crap shoot at best on who wins. Then he has tools to actually gimp her which is pretty hilarious. Pretty even MU to maybe his slight adv.

 

[David Viran]

MK can 0 to death like 90% of the cast (including ZSS). He also has a shield and a forward roll and is tiny as hell. So in order to beat him you're gonna have to grab him, which means that it's a crap shoot at best on who wins. Then he has tools to actually gimp her which is pretty hilarious. Pretty even MU to maybe his slight adv.

From what I heard mk can only get one uair to up b so he can't take us to the top of the screen with uairs with good DI.

 

[DeLux]

DI is a social construct.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

DI is a social construct.

YOU are a social construct.

 

[Odaroloc]

Ive played against some fairly decent Nesses, but I still feel like ZZS has the advantage. I might as well add that most of my MU are those in For Glory xD To give my two cents though, SH + SideB puts a lot of pressure against Ness. If he wants to use his UpB to add a bit of pressure, you can stop that fairly easily with a dair on top of him or the paralyzer. He can consume important attacks of ours yes, but we just don't have to rely on them. Small characters are definitely the bane of Zero Suit's existence (metroids); we just need to **** dekm wit uairs I sware on me mum.

 

[pichuthedk]

Rosa is next I can solo this one prob but if anyone has been murders by players like debuzz or of a similar high skill level your inputs are appreciated.

 

[DeLux]

Assuming customs, we probably lose that MU around 3 to 7ish. In the scrub ruleset it's probably 4 to 6ish.

 

[pichuthedk]

We lose to Rosa normally? I Donno man being able to dispatch Luma without imposing a heavy punish from Rosa can tip that into our favor should we have a double MU rating for this one?
Like if Luma is up x:y
if not z:x

 

[DeLux]

you can't dispatch luma without risking a heavy punish. We don't need a double mu ratio since we get the business customs on or not, honestly.

 

[Shaya]

I don't know man...
zair...

Have you tried it before?
Probably the top tier match up I'm most confident in, haven't dropped any sets while I play reclining and telling the person afterwards "sorry, I think that's a really bad match up for your character, you can't zone her and you can't approach her and you die at 80%, do you have a secondary for her?" "yeah Fox, yeah Falcon, Yeah Yoshi, Yeah Megaman, Yeah literally everyone else but I'm not going Rosalina against zero suit EVER again".

Nair also is generally happy thoughts-bringing.

But yeah her height... like, I can even use FORWARD AIR in neutral. FORWARD AIR.

You can do whatever you want against Rosalina.
And she's the only good character in this game I feel that way about.

 

[pichuthedk]

I don't know man...
zair...

Have you tried it before?
Probably the top tier match up I'm most confident in, haven't dropped any sets while I play reclining and telling the person afterwards "sorry, I think that's a really bad match up for your character, you can't zone her and you can't approach her and you die at 80%, do you have a secondary for her?" "yeah Fox, yeah Falcon, Yeah Yoshi, Yeah Megaman, Yeah literally everyone else but I'm not going Rosalina against zero suit EVER again".

Nair also is generally happy thoughts-bringing.

But yeah her height... like, I can even use FORWARD AIR in neutral. FORWARD AIR.

You can do whatever you want against Rosalina.
And she's the only good character in this game I feel that way about.

so the consensus at least for me at least is that I should get murdered by dabuz xD.
my friend also said that but I donno I kind believe we have more then a fighting chance agaisnt Rosa.
What I will say is that we probably still lose the god damn neutral against RosaLuma with luma out of the picture *sigh* Neutral has been like my weakest point since forever haha.

*ahem* I'll do this in like 2 hours setting an alarm so I don't john But my ranting aside I never lose to Rosa's unless they are much much better then me like power ranked player status or something... but even then I give them a run for their money.

 

[Jaxas]

so the consensus at least for me at least is that I should get murdered by dabuz xD.
my friend also said that but I donno I kind believe we have more then a fighting chance agaisnt Rosa.
What I will say is that we probably still lose the god damn neutral against RosaLuma with luma out of the picture *sigh* Neutral has been like my weakest point since forever haha.

*ahem* I'll do this in like 2 hours setting an alarm so I don't john But my ranting aside I never lose to Rosa's unless they are much much better then me like power ranked player status or something... but even then I give them a run for their money.

What do you feel are ZSS' main flaws for Rosaluma to take advantage of? And why does it change so heavily in customs (yes I know how good Shooting Star Bit and Luma Warp are, but I'd think they matter less against someone like ZSS; maybe I just don't know enough about high-level ZSS play, though, and get away with a lot of stuff I shouldn't)

 

[pichuthedk]

Mmm Rosalina has some weird gimmicks like this so called "lunar landing extending) where she does I think her nair while landing and AC but she rolls immediately after and it extends luma's nair hitbox or something so doing that and then getting behind us or some junk.

Since we have to up b alot of the time her dair is deadly while lumas perseves our stock a bit longer...
Her ability to do that annoying falling aerial that causes us to meteor into the ground and follow up if were not ready to act is also a problem ( I'm currently pondering whether we can immediately boost kick from that since we can do things like nair and dair anyways).

our flaws are our neutral game and luma blocks our lasers most of the time ( but i'm always aiming for him because he is a nuisance anyways).
I have learned some tricks to the MU that i'll plug in as well I'm going to do the MU right now and stop playing League...

I'll post as much as I can regarding this MU because I am very comfortable with it.

 

[pichuthedk]

MU rating is debatable @ DeLux says it's 3:7 for Rosa (not sure if exaggerated but hey I have yet to be bodied by dabuzz or similar skill level)

RosaLina-Disciple of the IC's in a more attractive/cutsie format
-Absorbtion that not only negates lasers but turns it into her own hit box
-Able to shield without shielding (luma you *******)
-Good recovery when they are not scrub tier

Pros for us
-Zair disables luma's aerial approaches whislt still hitting Rosa
- Possible gimps with dair at the ledge
-She's pretty light
-We have the tools to poke and prod Luma until he dies whilst staying safe
-Downsmash infinite on Luma ( explained later)
-Sh Side b is a true combo on Luma when Rosa is on her lunch break ( I.e launched away and Luma is lollygagging)
Cons
-Shield stun is even less effective granting her punishes easier if Luma takes a hit as well
-Our recovery has to be perfect most of the time due to Rosa's lingering dair
-Dair from above is a terrible idea more lingering Rosa BS
-Lasers are almost useless against smarter Rosa's

Ground Game
-If you grab Rosa you must make your decision promptly Luma will attack you, You can probably pummel release -> F-tilt till she goes away but be mindful of Luma's current Position and if you throw her MAKE SURE YOU SHIELD Luma's Back stabbing.
-Up tilt is legit if you use it properly can't stress this enough it's not worth just hitting Rosa just to get launched by Luma and followed up on.
-Predicting her roll is very annoying because she disappears whilst doing so.

Air Game
-Up airs are harder to land if your just mindlessly throwing them out there (note to self stop that).
-If your going to down air try to use some trickery to throw off her timing because she can just yolo jump at you and up air and if you must trade dair for her up air make sure Luma isn't the one connecting on you.
-Even though shes light I doubt living and dying by the boost kick is a worthwhile investment since you get double punished from whiffing.
-If you find your self at a stand still or RosaLina just jumping at your trying to advance with luma via aerials, Simply Sh Zairing will incapacitate luma because of his weird weight mechanics (He will literally just get hit and float there with a dumb look on his face) which possibly opens up a chance for you to finish him without taking a punish.

Recovery
-Low isn't always an option sometimes your gonna have rely on the old quick tether cancel flip jump over her.
-Sometimes on the ledge Rosa players will send Luma over to try and maybe stage spike you when your hanging on the ledge , It's possible to bait his move ( or just Yolo if they are not doing anything)
and get off ledge -> flip jump kick to hit luma away and then re-tether as your going back down.
-If Rosa isn't spaced safely when your on the ledge you can risk drop down-> boost kick for the soft launch it does, Because even if you only hit Luma that makes getting back on the stage that much easier/safer.
-DO NOT dilly dally on the ledge her bair and dair will #RECK you.

Moves to watch out for
-Her ability to AC and still have luma throw out moves can't be underestimated there is also the possibility she will do that FF aerial gimmick where you get meteor-ed into the stage and smashed by Luma or both...

-If Rosa is careless and sends Luma at you via neutral B you can full charged laser him easily (Her max charged shot sends Luma with enough force to negate all laser shots so care), Once he is stunned position yourself so that you hit Luma with downsmashes soft Launch (near the end), Because of his ability to resist some knock back Luma will get stunned and just reset there (for the sake of argument I'll just say the timing is strict because there have been times where the Rosa will always try to call him back but be unable to. Probably because of poor timing/being caught off guard for that) Use this to your advantage and refresh your moveset until he is either dead or Rosa approaches no need to get punished.

-If you launch Rosa but Luma remains you can SH side b him rinse & repeat until Rosalina comes back (you must be aware of your positioning for this to work it's one of your safest approaches to luma) + refreshing moves is always good.

Rosalina dies to fresh downsmash boost kicks at 95% near the center of FD say 110% highest if they have godlike DI.

Mid-level video reference ignore our eff nintendo commentary

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aCo-tBxS6QU

Rosalina downsmash fox Trot setup
95%
https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PL1nxsdfaVTl9glwBTpOPphE3AHM1ZsoN_&v=PMh99Vm6PmY

 

[BatShark]

We have a few really good Rosas aroundaround where I play, I don't think it's a troubling MU for us at all. Certainly not skewed as heavily as 3:7 or even 4:6. Nair is godly for us here and if you respect her roll-to-smash and dash attack zones I don't think she can get in on us all that well.

She has some jank business, to be sure, but I probably agree that it's one of our better high tier MUs.

 

[pichuthedk]

yeah that's how I feel but I must be the humble mid player I am till I surpass that V115 guy...

 

[DeLux]

Someone please link me to evidence of ZSS winning at the top level (I'll accept brackets / videos)

 

[BatShark]

Given the relative rarity of both characters at the top level right now that's probably not how this gets resolved. I mean I'm open to the discussion on this but at least deign to explain it a bit more. Rosa has scary edgeguards against us but don't particularly feel like she beats us in the air necessarily.

Aren't there some Choco V. Rosa VODs floating around somewhere? I seem to remember him abusing Luma hard in this MU.

 

[Shaya]

Someone please link me to evidence of ZSS winning at the top level (I'll accept brackets / videos)

How about links of her losing at top level. That will help too.

She flat out CANNOT zone Zero Suit out. Rosa/Luma poking with jabs and reactively punishing your commitments DOESN'T EXIST in this match up.

Dabuz is the best Rosa in the world by a seemingly large margin and the only ZSS that would occur is someone who's probably going to pick Dark Pit because of their side-b one shotting Luma.

I don't think you have much of any reason to argue that it's 70:30. At best it's even for Rosa because whilst she cannot zone us out/force our approach, we can't force her approach either (we can just zair luma about 20 times and she'll die and then we can go for something [or a few zairs into a nicely spaced nair for the finish]).

I'm still in a customless context. Luma Warp could be troubling.

 

[pichuthedk]

Someone please link me to evidence of ZSS winning at the top level (I'll accept brackets / videos)

we'll assuming it's top level then we should also assume that stage spikes do not result in kills since at top levels teching consistently is a part of the vocabulary.
so that takes away from rosa/luma stage spiking us but the same goes for us stage spiking them.
that leaves the normal kill options and possibly rosa's lingering dair and other crap.

Luma killing should be minimized as well since the match will probably reset alot where zss slowly chips at Lumas HP pool and Rosa plays defensively till he's back up.
I donno man... I feel like this MU is just heavily based on stages some things I noticed is obviusly stages like SV , BF ,lylat and town/city are not favorable because of the under platform pressure Rosa has + stuff like SV and town and city platforms saving luma from certain death.

It's really hard I'm going to try and get some inputs from the Rosa's in my area I know of 3 right now that main her 2 are mid level and the last one used to be like 5th power ranked in southern ontario and he gives me the most trouble, But is still a better player then me with good patience so I am not surprised but this is one of my better MU's IMO or from my experience even though Rosa isn't that common.

 

[Shaya]

Rosalina doesn't sweetspot the ledge.
Flip Kicks (why do you think I want to be able to ledge cancel this set up? ) and Down Smashes are easy game.

 

[BatShark]

we'll assuming it's top level then we should also assume that stage spikes do not result in kills since at top levels teching consistently is a part of the vocabulary.
so that takes away from rosa/luma stage spiking us but the same goes for us stage spiking them.
that leaves the normal kill options and possibly rosa's lingering dair and other crap.

Luma killing should be minimized as well since the match will probably reset alot where zss slowly chips at Lumas HP pool and Rosa plays defensively till he's back up.
I donno man... I feel like this MU is just heavily based on stages some things I noticed is obviusly stages like SV , BF ,lylat and town/city are not favorable because of the under platform pressure Rosa has + stuff like SV and town and city platforms saving luma from certain death.

It's really hard I'm going to try and get some inputs from the Rosa's in my area I know of 3 right now that main her 2 are mid level and the last one used to be like 5th power ranked in southern ontario and he gives me the most trouble, But is still a better player then me with good patience so I am not surprised but this is one of my better MU's IMO or from my experience even though Rosa isn't that common.

Stage spikes are still relevant withwith perfect teching because Luma can't tech! Send that thing straight to hell if she recovers low.

 

[DeLux]

How about links of her losing at top level. That will help too.

She flat out CANNOT zone Zero Suit out. Rosa/Luma poking with jabs and reactively punishing your commitments DOESN'T EXIST in this match up.

Dabuz is the best Rosa in the world by a seemingly large margin and the only ZSS that would occur is someone who's probably going to pick Dark Pit because of their side-b one shotting Luma.

I don't think you have much of any reason to argue that it's 70:30. At best it's even for Rosa because whilst she cannot zone us out/force our approach, we can't force her approach either (we can just zair luma about 20 times and she'll die and then we can go for something [or a few zairs into a nicely spaced nair for the finish]).

I'm still in a customless context. Luma Warp could be troubling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sM_RtiMuEow

Spoiler - Choco is given the business, marking the beginnings of his recent existential crisis.
Your move Shaya

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Rosalina doesn't sweetspot the ledge.
Flip Kicks (why do you think I want to be able to ledge cancel this set up? ) and Down Smashes are easy game.

I haven't really played any RosaLuma. So... does her up B have a hitbox at all? If not... then I'm all aboard the flipkick train!

 

[Shaya]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sM_RtiMuEow

Spoiler - Choco is given the business, marking the beginnings of his recent existential crisis.
Your move Shaya

I counted 0 zairs in the first minute (and one accidental one 3 minutes in; one good one in the 2nd match and it was his ONLY hit confirm he got the entire match practically :\). Invalid. And I knew you'd bring up the ONLY example I did watch this live too and I think I had a conversation with Nairo about it.
I wouldn't say Japan did that well at that tournament though. Choco had a really bad week !_!

But on top of that, when Rosa didn't have Luma, Choco didn't have much luck getting past Dabuz' jump air dodges or just elongated shield holding. He also noticeably fell apart second stock first match and never got back, his jumps became horribly telegraphed and then he just started running into things over and over again hoping bair would work.

I haven't really played any RosaLuma. So... does her up B have a hitbox at all? If not... then I'm all aboard the flipkick train!

Not without customs.

 

[David Viran]

To be fair that tournament was two days before apex. They could have easily been letting punishes and other things slide.

 

[DeLux]

To be fair, there's nothing wrong with saying that there is at least some evidence that at the top level Rosaluma wins, and then changing it once the evidence proves otherwise.

If ZSS really beats her like you guys seem to think, it'll correct itself.



I have pretty extensive MU experience playing Rosaluma in customs too btw. Customs make it 30:70, since the option of playing keep away doesn't work anymore. It's closer to 40-60 or 45-55 without customs.