Data Official MU thread : Breaking Clouds Limits.

[kyxsune]

Kyxsune's Battle Plan against diddy:

.......Eff it use Pikachu.

 

[hiROI]

This match up gives me a head ache. I find my self jumping a lot and FF nairing on the floor. I find fsmash to hit a lot along with uair. But apart from that, I feel like a sitting duck and I am just playing Russian Roulette with my options.

 

[pichuthedk]

This match up gives me a head ache. I find my self jumping a lot and FF nairing on the floor. I find fsmash to hit a lot along with uair. But apart from that, I feel like a sitting duck and I am just playing Russian Roulette with my options.

Well that is what we are all here , the way I see it is that we need to eliminate as many bullet chambers as possible.

I'm thinking since he's going to potentially be the neXT metaknight after brawl we need to determine the best predesignated responses for a number of situations we will be in.

Let's start with when he's got a Nana In hand since it's one of the most bs ones.

Shielding works but Diddy will obviously side b grab if we're conditioned.

What are your thoughts on not just this but his CQC game
@ Dakpo
@ NickRiddle
@ DeLux
anyelse who has got useful info post up.
I'm not gonna be home till midnight but I'll try to update then thanks.
start with Nana, monkey flip and neutral positions then we will proceed.

 

[quiKsilverItaly]

I kept thinking about how to edgeguard Diddy without a stage-spike, so he wouldn't have a possibility to tech.

Just take a look here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eW8z4y0-BQ&feature=youtu.be
The one is for low %, the other one for high %.


I don't have enough experience to talk about neutral game and more yet.

 

[Dakpo]

I havn't fought too many good diddy's yet. I tried playing against danti's but he switched to sheik instead. *sheik is going to be much harder than diddy anyways*

Diddy is an ok match up. It might be slightly in his favor but the match-up isn't super bad. Shield does beat banana, but so does a lot of things. Our neutral special destroys it and so do our attacks. If we get good, we can Zair the bannana when they pull it out. We can also pivot grab side special or roll behind it. We have crazy kill combos on diddy. Maybe I'm missing it, but what seems to be the problem?

 

[pichuthedk]

My main concern is the rock paper scissors feeling that I have when faced with his banana despite the fact he only has one I get caught up trying not to give him certain punishes and I play right into their hand for the more lethal ones.

I do agree with paralyzer and Zairs but he will still hit us with it unless I'm missing something., I paralyzer his peanuts b easily but sometimes forget how far I muse be for the commitment to reduce his responses in mid range.

I suppose it's mainly just a matter of my di during his juggles and annoying mixup potential from side b.

Honestly I just started Diddy because of the gossip of him as the next mk.

Bottom line his move set as I stated a page ago infuriates me.

Shiek should be next I agree she's a *****.

 

[DeLux]

I have quite a few sets of me labbing with MJG of vs. his Diddy on the KSM youtube, but I try not to put too much stock in friendlies. I should have some play after the tournament on Saturday/Monday as well, so I'm waiting until I get a feel for a variety of Diddy's before I make too much of an assessment.

But co-maining the characters since Day 1, DIddy vs. Diddy is significantly easier atm than ZSS vs. Diddy for me. From my experience it feels like a mental grind / losing situations at neutral, and to win we need to play air traffic controller and reroute diddy's landing from the stage to the blast zone once we find an opening. Fortunately ZSS is good at that sort of thing since her soft read game is absurd enough to make that happen.

I'd put it at a hard -1ish though, all jokes aside from my first post lol
I think most of her "bad matchups" are hard -1ish though since we have that crazy, puncher's chance factor of dropping in the hurt with a few soft reads.

 

[pichuthedk]

Well in regards to that let's just agree that it will fluctuate at the the different skill levels low, mid and high.

I'm around mid on the grind to get to high level and I generally have difficulties in the match ups where I can easily be interrupted here and there from prods and pokes such as things like shiek "stop that" quick single needle toss, my mind is then sometimes convinced that I'll actually follow through with my opted decision at that moment.

This in turn causes me to leave myself unnecessarily vulnerable when I should be other wise be able to get on with my life lol.

Just a weakness that needs to be worked on. *sigh*

 

[NickRiddle]

Never played a Diddy after week 1 or 3DS.

 

[Brian_Buckley]

Yeah I almost feel like switching to a different character for this MU. How's Falcon vs Diddy? I've been using him as a secondary behind Zero Suit.

 

[pichuthedk]

diddy must murder falcon so i unno i'll give us like 3 days till i change this to shiek I have a tournament on Saturday and then i'm going one town over to help my mom out (apparently my new job allows me to not be useless), So in the mean time VS diddy what works when we have him in the air / both of us are in the air ?

I'd Imagine nair and zair beat his fair /up air his back air has always felt slow to me so we can probably beat it one way or another.

 

[Brian_Buckley]

Yeah I have a tournament on Saturday as well that I'll be playing ZSS in. I'd imagine zair would only work as an occasional mixup though since it's easily avoidable with its long startup time if you use it too much.

Another counter to Diddy's jump grab that I've been looking into is ZSS's stun gun. Diddy's jump is just the right height that the laser hits it midair when done off the ground. What's great about it is even though ZSS's neutral has a lot of startup lag usually making it easy to react to, when Diddy's in his side-b he's unable to change his trajectory or airdodge, making him completely committed to it. The reliability of this completely depends on the distance at which Diddy starts his side-b. At longer distances it's guaranteed and the stun can lead into an easy fsmash, but at shorter distances you have to either react quickly enough or read it. What's nice though is even if it's hard at closer distances, it completely deters Diddy from doing it again. Hit him with stun-fsmash one or two times, and he's unlikely to try it again. All of this is just in the lab though, so we'll have to see how well it works in practice.

Edit: After testing it, I don't think stun>fsmash will work due to the long ending lag of the move. The best options are probably ftilt or jab combo. I tested it and uptilt doesn't work either since the stun gun pushes Diddy away just the right distance enough to put him right outside of ZSS's uptilt range.

 

[pichuthedk]

Yeah I have a tournament on Saturday as well that I'll be playing ZSS in. I'd imagine zair would only work as an occasional mixup though since it's easily avoidable with its long startup time if you use it too much.

Another counter to Diddy's jump grab that I've been looking into is ZSS's stun gun. Diddy's jump is just the right height that the laser hits it midair when done off the ground. What's great about it is even though ZSS's neutral has a lot of startup lag usually making it easy to react to, when Diddy's in his side-b he's unable to change his trajectory or airdodge, making him completely committed to it. The reliability of this completely depends on the distance at which Diddy starts his side-b. At longer distances it's guaranteed and the stun can lead into an easy fsmash, but at shorter distances you have to either react quickly enough or read it. What's nice though is even if it's hard at closer distances, it completely deters Diddy from doing it again. Hit him with stun-fsmash one or two times, and he's unlikely to try it again. All of this is just in the lab though, so we'll have to see how well it works in practice.

Edit: After testing it, I don't think stun>fsmash will work due to the long ending lag of the move. The best options are probably ftilt or jab combo. I tested it and uptilt doesn't work either since the stun gun pushes Diddy away just the right distance enough to put him right outside of ZSS's uptilt range.

Laser is beaten by side b kick from Diddy also laser to f smash/up tilt might work if you perfect pivot immediately. I'll try to test when I'm not having AFK sleep time Johns.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Laser is beaten by side b kick from Diddy also laser to f smash/up tilt might work if you perfect pivot immediately. I'll try to test when I'm not having AFK sleep time Johns.

We need to work more on the PP and co. anyway.

 

[Brian_Buckley]

Ah I see. Well if that fails, I still think the best way to deal with any approaching enemy with ZSS is spotdodge uptilt.

 

[pichuthedk]

Ah I see. Well if that fails, I still think the best way to deal with any approaching enemy with ZSS is spotdodge uptilt.

I really really wish I could agree with you on that, however from my experience few mid, a decent number of high level and the majority of top level players can and will catch on to that relatively quickly.

I have almost always resorted to that especially in brawl but it's viability as an option is very circumstantial it seems.

You should always be space for the max horizontal range to avoid the punish (well you should try anyways xD) you have coming for hitting up tilt on shield (with its pain in the ass cool down time).

Don't get me wrong I will probably using it for ever and a day but spot dodge to jab or flip jump aaway might be more viable from their benefits.

@ Tobi_Whatever sorry just waking up what is Co. Again? I'm gonna feel silly when I realize I know what it is brain still starting up xD.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

@ Tobi_Whatever sorry just waking up what is Co. Again? I'm gonna feel silly when I realize I know what it is brain still starting up xD.

Company. I meant PP and the other related techniques.

 

[pichuthedk]

Ah ok I don't feel nearly as dumb now I was trying to think of so many smash techs lol.

 

[BraveFantasy]

I haven't really had the chance to fight any good diddy players sadly, but I'll contribute what little I do know. First off is that around...30-35% we have a true combo on diddy that can star KO. I haven't had a chance to test this in battle yet, so I'm not sure how much it's affected by DI, but with vectoring out and up air combos a thing again, this hopefully will work. The combo is as follows: dsmash->shffuair->jump uair->double jump uair->up special. With the right positioning, the entire thing will combo from start to finish.

The second thing is that around 60-80%, shffnair->down b will combo. At the lower percents...60-65, it almost always spikes. and then 66 onward, it doesn't spike but can usually kill off the side since we land the down b offstage. You can also do this on the middle of the stage, but it's kind of pointless because it won't kill, and damage wise there are better choices.

The third thing is don't fall into a spot dodging habit. Even if diddy players love to grab, a good player in general will only fall for a spot dodge once, maybe twice. Mix it up. Be three steps ahead.

Also is usmash oos capable of beating out monkey flip?

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

I haven't really had the chance to fight any good diddy players sadly, but I'll contribute what little I do know. First off is that around...30-35% we have a true combo on diddy that can star KO. I haven't had a chance to test this in battle yet, so I'm not sure how much it's affected by DI, but with vectoring out and up air combos a thing again, this hopefully will work. The combo is as follows: dsmash->shffuair->jump uair->double jump uair->up special. With the right positioning, the entire thing will combo from start to finish.

The second thing is that around 60-80%, shffnair->down b will combo. At the lower percents...60-65, it almost always spikes. and then 66 onward, it doesn't spike but can usually kill off the side since we land the down b offstage. You can also do this on the middle of the stage, but it's kind of pointless because it won't kill, and damage wise there are better choices.

The third thing is don't fall into a spot dodging habit. Even if diddy players love to grab, a good player in general will only fall for a spot dodge once, maybe twice. Mix it up. Be three steps ahead.

Also is usmash oos capable of beating out monkey flip?

The first combo is already somewhere on our board and is currently on my testing list with DI.
I know that it connects without and can kill a DK on Smashville at 70% but I didn't do any DI tests yet.
The second combo is also known, you can even add a dsmash at the beginning, but afaik it wasn't tested with DI either and DI will most likely mess with the dspecial. A good working percent dependant alternative is dsmash>SH nair FF> upSpecial.

If I have the time I will test both tomorrow.

Edit: @ B BraveFantasy I finished testing both combos.
The first one does combo with DI but you obviously have to adjust your jump a little bit.
The only real problem I had was hitting the first uair because Diddy is so goddamn small.

The second combo is a true combo no matter the DI at ~60 to 70%.
I hope we didn't **** up but I tried multiple times together with a friend.

@ DeLux You wanted to do a combo video if I remember correctly?
I suggest we make your video a sticky and use the thread as a combo collection, whenever you are ready.

 

[BraveFantasy]

Yeah the timing on the first one is a little strange. I'm assuming you meant you had issues with the first uair, not nair xD

Also it's a lot easier to land if you short hop, wait for like a split second, and then fast fall up air to catch the end of the dsmash animation right as the opponent would be coming out of the stun. But I'm getting off topic. So has anyone been able to experiment with our down b vs diddy's uair? We could possibly airdodge first uair then immediately down b and use our invincibility frames to handle the follow up if it's fast enough.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Yeah the timing on the first one is a little strange. I'm assuming you meant you had issues with the first uair, not nair xD

Also it's a lot easier to land if you short hop, wait for like a split second, and then fast fall up air to catch the end of the dsmash animation right as the opponent would be coming out of the stun. But I'm getting off topic. So has anyone been able to experiment with our down b vs diddy's uair? We could possibly airdodge first uair then immediately down b and use our invincibility frames to handle the follow up if it's fast enough.

Yep, was a typo, edited it to uair.
Dspecial is a good escape mechanism, I think it could work. I can't really test that though, someone more competent has to try this.
I bet DeLux is already doing that anyway because he mentioned that in his landing video.

 

[DeLux]

Landing Uair is the punishment we need, but not the one we deserve. It is absurd. Shout outs to SFP for tipping me off a month ago lol

 

[pichuthedk]

Landing Uair is the punishment we need, but not the one we deserve. It is absurd. Shout outs to SFP for tipping me off a month ago lol

Now that you mention it , I Grudgingly Remember when I was facing V115 for first last weekend. There were times when he was just straight up murdering me with falling upairs and then instead of what I normally do ( uptilt) he just started jumping up and murdering me with more uairs.

Thank god he was to greedy for them he never killed me with up b, man the salt I got from that set when I laser reset him and he slid off by T.The

Falling up airs gotta work on that one used to use it a decent amount in brawl seldom now.

 

[Locuan]

Hey ZSS mains! We are currently discussion the ZSS match-up on the Lucina Match-Up Thread. It would be awesome if you guys could help us out!

 

[pichuthedk]

Ok guys starting shiek so Ill just leave this open and such *Reserved*

 

[hiROI]

I'm playing against a Shiek tonight in preparation of Orlando's Apex qualifier tournament this week, so I'll have vids and comments to post about later.

 

[check_mate]

• Fight Sheik from midrange. Use Zair, Nair, Bair, reversed SH paralyzer, dash attack (as a mix-up) to apply midrange pressure. Don't be fazed by her needles.
• As per usual, ZSS' bread and butter is juggling people in the air so once you get a hit on Sheik (say with a stun or zair), try to follow up with moves that send her in the air (dash attack/dash grab>dthrow/dtilt).
• Once you have Sheik in the air, keep her there by going to town with uairs/fairs/utilt/usmash and eventually into her kill moves (up-b, uair, bair). Make it as difficult as possible for her to land as she does not have good options coming down. Her dair is laggy and should be punished.
• Watch out for bouncing fish when edge guarding Sheik.

Feel free to add/correct if you've found a better method for dealing with Sheik. I have an opportunity to play a good Sheik this weekend so I'll add more depending on how it goes.

 

[pichuthedk]

You have a lot of good points , Maybe it is just me but i feel like her needles can hinder you quite alot since you can't do anything that requires commitment on the ground much AKA laser's ,side b.

She also has the same uncanny ability that greninja had before where he would dodge moves simply from getting hit however she gets this from alot of her landing aerials like nair/ fair and sometimes bair.

I'm really sorry been loafting on this without a wii u didn't want to just be talking out of my butt, I will just do the shiek section tomorrow Bounty Hunter's honor, So add what ever else you guys can till then and i will compile it into the format.

Last thing if you were to run up and dash grab a shiek charging needles i'm pretty sure a competent one will just throw them at you then counter (depeding on how any she had drawn before the throw).

 

[David Viran]

If you read the needles you can punish with flip jump. Sheik might think twice before throwing needles especially at higher percents when the kick will kill.

 

[FullMoon]

Hello, ZSS's mains, we of the Greninja board are discussing ZSS now so any input from you guys would be very much appreciated: http://smashboards.com/threads/mast...eik-zss-1-12-1-19.369356/page-8#post-18374722

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

I played a decent Sheik yesterday in FG and I felt like sTilt was actually a good method to deal with her approaches.
Also every laggy move punished. She was a shorthopping madness.
She got about 3x the hits in than I got but mine hit way harder.
I dealt most of my damage with SH nAirs, sTilts, stun pokes and the usual grab combos. I couldn't really use dSmash. I played and barely won both matches I had against her with 3x sex kick reads and 1x uSpecial after bury.

 

[David Viran]

Remember oos up b is your best friend. Try not to miss it though.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Remember oos up b is your best friend. Try not to miss it though.

Is it safe on all of her aerials?

 

[David Viran]

It works on fair if she misspaces it or if you get a PS I'm pretty sure you can still get a spaced fair.

 

[pichuthedk]

Hello, ZSS's mains, we of the Greninja board are discussing ZSS now so any input from you guys would be very much appreciated: http://smashboards.com/threads/mast...eik-zss-1-12-1-19.369356/page-8#post-18374722

I put the gren in a match up first so you can take a look at some of it but I'll check out your thread when I get a chance...

*realization dawns* crap I forgot my laptop today and I promised to do shiek today T.T. whelp looks like I'm going home early zzz.

@ David Viran
yeah I punish needles with kick a lot to but sometimes you need to be close enough or they just roll/shield out of charge on reaction

 

[pichuthedk]

MU rating: 4.25 for zss (Imo) we will discuss what we think it actually is.
NickRiddle MU free:1 in zss's favor

Pros for us
-Shiek has to recover low against us because of that downsmsh fear.
-Flip Jump being a variable makes Shiek think twice about charging needles in a predictable manner.
-Shiek is a fast faller so shes combo food once we get going.
-down smash locks from 0-18%+ or - based on DI and your spacing.
-sheiks Grenade Is almost always a free punish up close
-Shielding shiek's Bouncing fish Is a free flip jump for us (Timing strict)


Cons
-Needles while punishable are annoying AF don't commit for no reason out in the open "hmmm let's try to charge laser" = NO
-Her Upsmash is a good anti air method (Intangibility near head/arms..or something) if you over use down b for quick movements.
-Her air game is ridiculous at times , Her aerials almost all auto cancel so shes able to literally jump around you while hitting your shield TWICE BTW (fair on the way through and bair when shes gonna land, Hell even in the reverse order) and then landing beside you and grabbing/F-tilitng you or some BS
-Needles can clip you when you go to tether ( the typical shiek Short/Full hop needle shot when you start to hang).
-Shiek can crouch and not get hit by paralyzer shot she can possibly also avoid grabs if you miss space it.

Optimal Punishes
-Dair's can be shielded and downsmashed -> boost kick
-Grenades should be a free grab granted your at mid range ( our side B's range)
-Predict Shiek's vanish and you can generally get to her entry point shield the incoming hit box -> down smash + follow up
-Back throw might allow for a forced get up via laser if she doesn't tech at 0%
-Shiek's bouncing fish is shieldable almost on reaction and Flip jump/ dash grab is a good way to punish. ( I don't really see you getting to her in time to down smash combo and laser is to slow)

Ground Game
Depending on the first couple of seconds you need to think of how you are going to deal with needle interrupts,This will help you later on so you don't just try and wing it to avoid any fatal mistakes. Shiek wins the ground game up close unless you are following a strict game plan of racking up damage with very low commitment moves like jabs and tilts, It's really good to pressure shiek with things like low and mid angled Ftilt, so you can react to her option choice if you manage to trip her.

You need to remember that while shiek can crouch under some of your moves YOU WILL NOT see similar occurrences often (I've evaded some of her tilts and even f-smash with down tilts but mostly f-tilts).
If you are uncomfortable fighting Shiek up close try to create some space and wait for something to capitalize on.

Once I get a chance i'll test if @ Dakpo 's god send advice from brawl about Upsmash OoS as one of the most useful tools to getting this ninja out of our face , off the ground and into the air and above us where zss thrives.




Air Game
Shiek doesn't have much answers for when shes below us but from the front her fair is no joke with the amount of times she will hit you before you realize you've been hit from center of FD to off stage. Rule of thumb IMO is that you need to be even more aware of not trying to rely on flip jump's GTFO ability because of it's invincibility draw back ( no longer frame 1). If shiek is pressuring you with fairs and you can't seem to position for up airs or even nairs (somehow), You should try to zone her out with Zairs.

I am not entirely sure in regards to Shiek's case but some characters can be zair'd (weak hit) -> dash grabbed when the spacing and landing is right. Honestly Fair and up air are probably all you should really worry about when shiek is in the air aside from surprise Bouncing Fish's and Yolo Vanish up b's for desperate kills, Shiek should not be much of a problem unless you over commit and let her land something she shouldn't normally get.

Moves to watch out for
-Up air juggles at low/ mid %s
-F-tilt spams for that early damage can be avoided IIRC you DI up and into shiek
-Shiek's down smash is like Marths/ Lucinas up smash except the opposite where you get horizontal range instead of more vertical range, it will suck you up into it if you start to get hit.
-Up smash shouldn't be challenged unless your certain you will not get hit (Especially if they charge it for a read DON'T BE A HERO)
damn I am tired Ok I will clean this up tomorrow and then by like saturday i'll start Yoshi hate that Ahole and his egg that go at just the right angle to hit me and piss me off. xD

 

[David Viran]

Also remember with down special I'm pretty sure if you could have air dodged then you could have just down specialed instead. We need to learn when you can down special out of strings.

 

[pichuthedk]

Well yeah but it's more of the whole scenario where you are like "well shiek just hit me 5 times and now i'm off stage guess i'll just flip jump...Well **** Samus just side b'd I guess i got hit while using flip jump during those 2 million fairs she hit me with".

but I hear what your saying I'm just kinda tired man, Yeah we need to figure that all out but that is something that will only come with combat experience IMO we need to be stringed only so many times before we figure out both timing and if it's even at all possible in the first place.

 

[David Viran]

I'm pretty sure it is possible because i have done and seen our fair trade hits during her stings with fairs.