Data Official MU thread : Breaking Clouds Limits.

[Tobi_Whatever]

I'm pretty sure it is possible because i have done and seen our fair trade hits during her stings with fairs.

I do that pretty often too, dunno if it's an execution error on their side.

 

[DeLux]

A gift from Nick Riddle



I think sheik gives us the business but I am bad soooo don't take too much stock in that opinion.

 

[hiROI]

ZSS 45:55 Shiek

Neutral Game/Approaching
At neutral, Shiek forces us to approach with her needles. Personally, I do not like using Paralyzer a lot in this match up in the neutral because you will eat needles in the face. When approaching, I usually dash and SH to a spaced nAir. The nAir covers you at a downward angle that will beat fair if Shiek decides to SH fAir. From nAir, you can jab/ftilt if they decide to drop shield for dash grab/ground approach since our moves come out fast. Dtilt also seems effective for shiek since most of her moves hit shoulder up. Like mentioned in previous posts, the goal is to get her in the air to do the usual ZSS bread and butter.

Advantage
When in the advantage stage of the match up, you can juggle shiek for a while with uairs, utilts, and nairs due to her little options to get back on the ground and average aerial mobility. Some Shieks will bouncing fish to either side and just reset the game back to neutral. If it happens, rinse and repeat.

Disadvantage
Once Shiek has ZSS in an ftilt/fair shenanigan, you can gain a lot of damage. They can go across the stage with SH fairs with ZSS at lo percents, ZSS will take damage with ftilt/fair/cancelling uair shenanigans. I find it helpful to use down B to maneuver the stage easier for breathing space and can be used in the middle of her low percent combos. Also, if the shield touches your shield with misspaced fairs, nairs, after jab 2, you can OoS Up+B. Our frame 1 jab is a blessing for when Shiek is over you and plays a nice keep away. Don't be too Down B happy since she can uair us when are at the highest point of the move. Also, when down throw, always down b. If airdodge or try to fight Shiek's follow up, you can eat a vanish (kills early) or an uair.

And basically Nick Riddle's video: UpB,UpB,UpB

Overall
I give Shiek the slight advantage since Shiek can reset the match to neutral a number of times. With a mix of bombs, needles and quick aerials, the neutral game becomes a hurdle to cross. The ZSS needs to be creative and force shields and responses with nairs, zairs and shorthops. And once in, it should be easier.

Here is a friendly between me and a Shiek player as we practice for Apex: Paragon tournament this weekend. I need to use more UpB, but here is some examples of the neutral game and when i get punished for DownBing too much.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

A gift from Nick Riddle



I think sheik gives us the business but I am bad soooo don't take too much stock in that opinion.

She obviously gives us a run for our money, both literally and figuratively.
Thing is we have to hit her like 1/4 times she hits us to get an even outcome.

 

[pichuthedk]

I get what you are saying but maybe it's just me, I feel like a total **** if I over use boost kick...I main the character and even i think it's bs.

She obviously gives us a run for our money, both literally and figuratively.
Thing is we have to hit her like 1/4 times she hits us to get an even outcome.

Yeah that's why I expressed that you shouldn't commit: level tunnel vision

@ David Viran yeah bro I've traded hits with shiek during her strings as well as trading with the first hit fair, it is so tempting for me although most of the time that is me being greedy and wanting both hits instead of just the one to make opponents get the hint.

They be trying to hit up Zamus for free when they don't even understand that they need to buy her dinner first xD.

Nice post though guys I'll assimilate it in like 7 hours if I am not completely out of HP.

All in all shieks a pain in the aSS for me (I do not deal well with characters that can interrupt me so effortlessly), however the MU isn't that bad it just scales insanely depending how good the shiek is.

Single needle shieks that interrupt a lot then mixing up between tilts, grabs and even timing vanish's invincibility is just....

I can murder a shiek when they are bad or using unwarranted reckless agression -> go and face the ones that cross you up so many times in seconds makes you feel violated even though your in your shield.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

They be trying to hit up Zamus for free when they don't even understand that they need to buy her dinner first xD.

I can now ascent to heaven, far away from my sides.

 

[DeLux]

Yall are under estimating Sheik's true power.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Yall are under estimating Sheik's true power.

Well if both players would have skill capped, Sheik will most likely win because of the better neutral.
Thing is I think that we still haven't grasped even all the more basic things ZSS can do, especially regarding effective kill setups and damage output.

 

[DeLux]

I kind of think it works both ways. I really think Sheik isn't as explored as she could be yet.

 

[pichuthedk]

NAh bro I hate the MU only when they are more than component ones that really eff your day up.

That's why I also posted IMO that the MU is 6.75:4:25 in shieks favor.

 

[pichuthedk]

OMG DOUBLE POST @ Tobi_Whatever
I forgot about this till I read you say kill set ups and I was like omg I remember a few days ago doing friendlies with my friend,

I murdered his first stock , disrespected him his second stock with a few hits and then that FF nair to flip jump GTF down there spike.

As if this wasn't bad enough my back throw was either stale enough or his reaction time is terrible which shouldn't really be the case ( he takes that focus drug aderal or what ever for add),

i landed the back throw -> flip jump spike but it was literally the perfect hit because the only thing he could have done wad tech the edge on his way down which he didn't because the angle fooled him into thinking he would land on stage.

 

[DeLux]

NAh bro I hate the MU only when they are more than component ones that really eff your day up.

That's why I also posted IMO that the MU is 6.75:4:25 in shieks favor.

I don't understand the base 11 score system for MUs...

 

[pichuthedk]

You troll lol I was tired sue me xD. So 5.75 : 4.25 .shieks favor. There happy .

@ DeLux I almost hate you lol you had me paranoid scrolling back through the pages to see if I made the same error every time xD.

 

[David Viran]

Isn't everyone unexplored right now.

 

[pichuthedk]

Exactly that is why we need to rise to the top and discover as much as we can so we can see apex results as the following
1st. ZSS
2ND. ZSS
3rd.zss
4th. ZSS
5th. ZSS
6th.zss
7th.zss

So we can take as much of their money before they uncover our secrets xD.

 

[David Viran]

Also we can actually sheild grab sheiks ftilt? That's pretty good to know if we can.

 

[airconny]

Also we can actually sheild grab sheiks ftilt? That's pretty good to know if we can.

yup, if they're still in the middle of performing the move. they can spotdodge it though if you're too slow in predicting it however

 

[pichuthedk]

Pretty sure we cant , if it's at all possible it would require a power shield.
Since above says we can as well I'll stfu .

I love you btw I forgot to include that shieks jab finisher is punishable with shield grab I'll add it later now back to work xD.

 

[David Viran]

It was in the nick riddle video.

 

[pichuthedk]

It was in the nick riddle video.

I have yet to watch it lol 6 more hours till I can T.T

 

[Scr7]

You could shield grab sheik out of ftilts if she just keeps ftilting your shield, but the move has very little lag so the Sheik can easily react with another option and avoid getting grabbed.

 

[David Viran]

That's what I was talking about sheild grabbing her for even hitting your sheild once. And it seems to be possible but the timing is strict.

 

[Dakpo]

Fyi- they NERFED the speed of our up smash in the last patch. Still good but not godlike

 

[David Viran]

Wasn't it nerfed like one or two frames?

 

[pichuthedk]

Yeah I feel like it was frame 9-> 11 but don't quOTE me.

 

[David Viran]

I thought so to but I looked at the frame data that came out like 1-2 weeks ago and it said it came out on frame 10. Maybe I read it wrong.

 

[pichuthedk]

I thought so to but I looked at the frame data that came out like 1-2 weeks ago and it said it came out on frame 10. Maybe I read it wrong.

Yeah I'm not to sure about it since nintendo doesnt feel we should see the patch notes.

all in all they nerfed it because it is a huge threat when we use it properly especially when people don't space themselves/act aggressively forgetting about that last hit.

 

[David Viran]

Yeah I'm not to sure about it since nintendo doesnt feel we should see the patch notes.

all in all they nerfed it because it is a huge threat when we use it properly especially when people don't space themselves/act aggressively forgetting about that last hit.

Yeah but doesn't that help mostly the already good characters? It's still useful and would probably really helpful if we knew the actual frame it came out on. Also kind of off topic but are there any moves in this game that are positive on shield?

 

[pichuthedk]

Lol fair enough , in regards to that I can't be certain since I only have 5 ish characters out of 53.

s @NickRiddle OMG I have been working from 3 am and just watched the video *bows* We I am not worthy.
I should just delete every thing I wrote and just link da video ;p

 

[David Viran]

Ok im convinced that usmash is frame 10 now looking at the frame data again.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Dunno if you guys heard the interview with M2K after the finals but he said we shouldn't DI behind Diddy on low percent or he gets a triple uAir out of dThrow. Maybe we should add that to the matchup. Also @ pichuthedk would you mind putting all the discussed MU's into the OP?

 

[David Viran]

Yeah that happened to Nick way to often.

 

[pichuthedk]

Dunno if you guys heard the interview with M2K after the finals but he said we shouldn't DI behind Diddy on low percent or he gets a triple uAir out of dThrow. Maybe we should add that to the matchup. Also @ pichuthedk would you mind putting all the discussed MU's into the OP?

yeah sure after i've recovered from my err....magical journey.

 

[David Viran]

I just thought about this for the Diddy MU can utilt be a counter to diddy's rising fair? Her legs are invincible during it so she like ducks under a rising fair and we all know how utilt doesn't like to trade. Combined with a PP it can really be good against diddy's aerial approaches.

 

[DeLux]

Probably not enough horizontal disjoint at that height

 

[David Viran]

It has the slide with PP so it might not matter about the horizontal range to much. Also we can just crouch under a rising fair.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

It has the slide with PP so it might not matter about the horizontal range to much. Also we can just crouch under a rising fair.

Wait, rising fAir as in neutral game rising fAir?
Wouldn't that be hella risky, like, did you test this in action yet? Is it doable on reaction?

 

[David Viran]

Yes neutral game rising fair and I have yet to test it but there was a video about crouching under rising fair they used marth though but the same probably applies to us.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Yes neutral game rising fair and I have yet to test it but there was a video about crouching under rising fair they used marth though but the same probably applies to us.

Very interesting. I also want to stress my support for more active PP usage.

 

[David Viran]

Very interesting. I also want to stress my support for more active PP usage.

I heard @Shaya mention something about dodging bouncing fish from sheik with a PP dsmash.