Data Official MU thread : Breaking Clouds Limits.

[Tobi_Whatever]

lol honestly I hate Ness so much. I feel like it's not even worth using the grab because I get crushed on a whiff, and he likes to play just outside the range of the grab. I feel like my only saving grace is DSmash on shielded PKT2

But I've always hated Ness.

zAir

 

[Tito Maas]

zAir

Okay. I'm playing this dude right now and I'm incredibly frustrated

I apologize in advance for being the worst player freaking ever but I keep getting f****d up by PK Fire. Everyone acts like you can't get hit by that attack but it's freaking ridiculous. I'm always scared to damn attack because I'll be in range of his PK Fire and eventually all he has to do is grab me and it's over. I can't escape the PK Fire, I keep getting hit by it, and I keep losing because of it. SERIOUSLY, that's the only damn attack he's using to kill me. I feel like I should NEVER attack first because if I whiff, I'm dead or taking huge damage

 

[Tito Maas]

Not to mention if any part of damn PK Thunder touches me, I'm falling at high speed to my death.

The only way I can kill this piece of **** is if he PK Thunders into shield for a DSmash to UpB. But that's getting predictable as hell

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Okay. I'm playing this dude right now and I'm incredibly frustrated

I apologize in advance for being the worst player freaking ever but I keep getting f****d up by PK Fire. Everyone acts like you can't get hit by that attack but it's freaking ridiculous. I'm always scared to damn attack because I'll be in range of his PK Fire and eventually all he has to do is grab me and it's over. I can't escape the PK Fire, I keep getting hit by it, and I keep losing because of it. SERIOUSLY, that's the only damn attack he's using to kill me. I feel like I should NEVER attack first because if I whiff, I'm dead or taking huge damage

Do you play offline? Because it should be easy to react to PK fire. It's not that fast and Ness yells it too. You can DI out of it and you can jab interrupt his approaches while you're in the fire.
His PK thunder is your chance to get a dSpecial Kick in.

 

[Shaya]

The obvious thing to remember is shielding it dissipates the projectile no matter what. It may be safe for them to hit your shield with it at a certain distance (dash attack out of shield will cover most) but otherwise it isn't too bad in that regard.

Getting hit by it sucks. I'm not used to not just falling out of this stuff for free while playing Marth (in any smash game), meanwhile ZSS doesn't...
Depending on the lag you can try to jab ness' dash grab inside the fire.
You should be able to bring up shield too and from there you should be trying hard to roll away. Spot dodge is slightly faster start up over roll and may save you in a real panicky situation.

 

[Tito Maas]

Do you play offline? Because it should be easy to react to PK fire. It's not that fast and Ness yells it too. You can DI out of it and you can jab interrupt his approaches while you're in the fire.
His PK thunder is your chance to get a dSpecial Kick in.

Well I've been playing online against my Smash group since we're out of school until August. My rival mains Ness and it just seems like his PKF regained its relevance against me with ZSS.

Getting out of it isn't so much the issue as it is getting out of it and away from his back throw too. Guess I just haven't figured it out with ZSS yet.

The obvious thing to remember is shielding it dissipates the projectile no matter what. It may be safe for them to hit your shield with it at a certain distance (dash attack out of shield will cover most) but otherwise it isn't too bad in that regard.

Getting hit by it sucks. I'm not used to not just falling out of this stuff for free while playing Marth (in any smash game), meanwhile ZSS doesn't...
Depending on the lag you can try to jab ness' dash grab inside the fire.
You should be able to bring up shield too and from there you should be trying hard to roll away. Spot dodge is slightly faster start up over roll and may save you in a real panicky situation.

Can I hold jab? I held it once and only was able to get a single jab out before getting grabbed

 

[RedBeefBaron]

Hey zss mains, the Diddys are trying to revive our derelict matchup thread with some fresh discussion, starting with zss and some other top tiers. If you know the matchup feel free to stop by to share.

http://smashboards.com/threads/chim...up-thread-seeking-new-ownership.376604/page-5

 

[infiniteV115]

After friendlying Dabuz at SSC I agree that ZSS beats Rosa.

I still think we lose -1 to ,,,,and maybe though. And I have no exp in the following MUs but I could see us losing to and

 

[BatShark]

Agree on Rosa, Sheik, Pika, Diddy, and perhaps Mario. Fox's jab changes actually kind of hurt us (we could jab to disrupt any of his double jab followups) but I don't know if that MU is much worse than even. I think we have more going for us in the Ness MU than he does, as he's one of the few high tiers whose lack of speed we can abuse hard and just pick our engages on.

Thoughts on Yoshi?

 

[infiniteV115]

I think we beat Yoshi slightly. He has the same problem as us in terms of his approaches; he has to commit to a short hop and he can't really do any quick, rising aerials (except nair which is pretty unsafe).

Thing is we can get Yoshi to shield (with nair/zair) whereas he can't really do that to us; his fair and dair are safe on shield and obv neutralB goes right through, but I feel like we're so mobile that these things aren't nearly as useful for him as they are in his other MUs.

 

[Shaya]

,,,,and maybe though. And I have no exp in the following MUs but I could see us losing to

I think it's fair to say these are our hardest match ups in the cast, even, advantage, disadvantage, however they all end up.
Wario doesn't seem to have a good time against ZSS from my experiences, Marth stuff translated over quite well. This time though ZSS (in contrast) has better aerial mobility specs over Wario, a less exploitable recovery and can't be ledge trapped. If there are ZSS out there struggling it would be good to look at what exactly. Just seems like Wario has to approach her, gets trapped / out button'd at most stages of his game plan and is kinda fattie-tier in terms of follow ups. Honestly feels like the degree of control/shut down as ZSS has on Sonic.

Meanwhile I'm wary of Jiggs, Kirby, Tink, Megaman, Duck Hunt, Villager, G&W; rest of the cast we just kinda seem to **** on doing good/proper things.

 

[Peahnuts]

I understand why Sheik, Pika, Ness, and Mario are all considered rough MUs, but could someone explain to me why Fox is considered one?

Also I consistently beat the Olimar in our area but I could see why that matchup could be annoying with his short height, and weird tether-esque grab that teleports you to him (without the horrible frame data our grab has). So far I feel like keeping track of the pikmin colours and not getting too caught up in getting the pikmin off us and just maintaining our rush-down game has been an ok strat for me.

 

[Otterz]

I've heard that the the general consensus is that we beat ROB pretty badly, but I have yet to beat any ROB I see on Anthers. What should I be doing in this MU? I seem to get hit by gyros and lasers consistently as I'm trying to approach with Nair or Paralyzer. Should I be approaching from above ROB?

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

I've heard that the the general consensus is that we beat ROB pretty badly, but I have yet to beat any ROB I see on Anthers. What should I be doing in this MU? I seem to get hit by gyros and lasers consistently as I'm trying to approach with Nair or Paralyzer. Should I be approaching from above ROB?

Approach with shield

 

[Otterz]

Approach with shield

Seems simple and effective, thanks.

 

[Shaya]

I understand why Sheik, Pika, Ness, and Mario are all considered rough MUs, but could someone explain to me why Fox is considered one?

"Something something" probably slightly beat them all anyway.
Honestly, I find that we destroy Fox, but his specs kinda weigh up well to being a match up we don't faceroll, feasibly beating us (because of dash attack).

 

[andrebound]

Fox's recovery is easy to edgeguard and being a fast faller makes him super easy to combo but his speed on the ground and fast options up close can be tough to deal with. Plus he has the speed to punish bad options ie. poorly spaced nair, paralyzer.

 

[Nicole]

Ness might be kind of bad.

 

[Noa.]

Hey Zss players, the Ness mains made a matchup thread detailing the Ness Zss matchup. If some of you would post your thoughts on the matchup that would be great.

http://smashboards.com/threads/ness-matchup-discussion-zero-suit-samus.410113/

Most Ness players think Ness beats Zss. I wonder if you all agree. If you don't, share why you don't think so.

 

[David Viran]

Maybe I missed something in the link you posed but what I read was about shielding right after the PS window and not the PS itself? Even then, would kirby still lose the frame advantage? Dsmash would hit at frame 20, and ZSS first active frame is 42. So that means Kirby would have to be locked in shield for 22 frames for ZSS to have the advantage correct? So lets say you hit kirby on frame 4, the earliest you cant in shield lock. That means Kirby gets 3 frames of shields stun, plus the remaining 7 from shield lock, plus 7 frames for shield drop, plust 8 frames hit lag. 25 frames correct? So a 3 frame advantage if kirby chooses to drop shield though. As per the your link though, if Kirby chooses jumpcancel/roll/shield grab, he can act at the same time he normally would and still maintain frame advantage. Did I miss something?

Anyways, apologies to Trifroze. I got a bit snarky there.

Yes natural oos option aren't affected by shield lock frames but unless he's in range to directly punish with them they can put him at a disadvantage anyway because of their commitment. Oh yeah and the PS window is actually 1-4 frames not 1-3

 

[Muffin!]

So then 1-4 perfect shield and then 5-11 shield lock? or 5-12 shield lock? I don't have data for hitlag and shield stun but maybe I can get a rough estimate on which moves are best. Looks like dsmash is probably the best bet, but the 3 frame window you have to hit it in to get a frame advantage is pretty small.

So lets break this down. Say ZSS successfully approaches and lands a perfectly spaced dsmash on shield. If Kirby gets PS he will probably go for a punish. If not, what does each do? I'f I'm kirby I would probably just return to duck and hit dtilt a few times. I'd anticipate a follow up form ZSS, and duck would cover the most options. if she runs at me dtilt hits. If she short hops I can probably punish. I would probably get hit if ZSS chose to cover the duck option again, but I would take that gamble. Rolling toward ZSS seem like it would be a good option as well. So then what does ZSS do? Flip kick seems like a good option. If he crouches, you can probably punish. If he jumps you punish. If he retreats with a roll you punish. If he shields or rolls towards you, you're back to neutral.

Maybe my reasoning is off, and obviously it's an easy punish if that's all you do, but I don't think I've ever tried shield poke to flip kick in this scenario. I usually just throw out a short hop nair in place which usually turns out fruitless.

 

[David Viran]

If kirby just crouches and then commits to dtilt what's to stop me from just dsmashing again and punishing the dtilt. ZSS could just walk up out of Kirbys dtilt range and ftilt or Dtilt too. Kirbys not punishing a spaced dsmash PS or not. ZSS could just do nothing and just watch what kirby does. If he rolls in utilt on reaction.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Can we please stop this theory crafting bull**** about Kirby in every second ZSS thread?

 

[Muffin!]

"Get off my lawn" -Tobi_whatever

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

"Get off my lawn" -Tobi_whatever

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you're wrong about the stuff you posted, I'm just thinking that we've reached a point in the discussion where both groups can't agree and we need video evidence to get anywhere.

 

[Antonykun]

Hello ZSS people, Mii Swordfighter is currently talking about her, If you could kindly visit the discussion we would really like if someone comes in do a fact-check with whats being said there

 

[pichuthedk]

Umm damn I got here late to the party, here I was gonna say that you can just foot stool Kirby -> dair xD.

Anyways you guys down to discuss Luigi since he's still taking names ? or is there a more threatening mu like Pikachu we should focus on?

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Umm damn I got here late to the party, here I was gonna say that you can just foot stool Kirby -> dair xD.

Anyways you guys down to discuss Luigi since he's still taking names ? or is there a more threatening mu like Pikachu we should focus on?

I'd heavily prefer Pika. Luigi isn't exactly exciting.

 

[pichuthedk]

Yeah Pikachu is a thorn in my butt as well and I haven't done the Mu in a long while.

I am guessing @ NickRiddle probably has the best exp in this mu compared to the rest of us?

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Well I have some experience on a few don'ts but nothing major.
Don't pick stages with slopes, Lylat is certain death.
Don't use normal sTilt, use low sTilt.
If you try to grab punish landings, don't wait until Pika is landed or your grab will whiff because of his low landing animation. This goes for landing lag on his aerials as well.

SHAD bAir perfectly hits Pikachu
dThrow > bAir gets quite hard to land
the BnB only works pretty early compared to the rest of the cast
Our nAir and dSmash combos are still real

 

[pichuthedk]

Well I have some experience on a few don'ts but nothing major.
Don't pick stages with slopes, Lylat is certain death.
Don't use normal sTilt, use low sTilt.
If you try to grab punish landings, don't wait until Pika is landed or your grab will whiff because of his low landing animation. This goes for landing lag on his aerials as well.

SHAD bAir perfectly hits Pikachu
dThrow > bAir gets quite hard to land
the BnB only works pretty early compared to the rest of the cast
Our nAir and dSmash combos are still real

Wait even halbard is bad for us? i sometimes tried to use proper positioning on the slopes to enable the use of ground level paralyzers, I have lost a majority of those MUs since like December but that's due to lack of confidence and major frustration at missing the moves I use more than I should. The low angled forward tilt thing makes sense I know that but I just need to have more combat experience in that MU to acknowledge that it should always be low angled or bust.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Wait even halbard is bad for us? i sometimes tried to use proper positioning on the slopes to enable the use of ground level paralyzers, I have lost a majority of those MUs since like December but that's due to lack of confidence and major frustration at missing the moves I use more than I should. The low angled forward tilt thing makes sense I know that but I just need to have more combat experience in that MU to acknowledge that it should always be low angled or bust.

No halberd is always good for us
always


always RYOKO ****ING ALWAYS DUDE
100% OF THE EXISTENCE OF THE UNIVERSE

 

[NickRiddle]

Yeah Pikachu is a thorn in my butt as well and I haven't done the Mu in a long while.

I am guessing @ NickRiddle probably has the best exp in this mu compared to the rest of us?

MU sucks, 6/4 Pika's favor.
2small

 

[Shaya]

What if you're aiming 20% better than you normally would?

 

[pichuthedk]

Man Nick kinda summed it up "short" and sweet xD.

Why pika so small D;?

But yeah I need to mentally whip myself to force the habit of aiming 1000x better in those types of mu's.

 

[NickRiddle]

What if you're aiming 20% better than you normally would?

Moves will whiff on Pikachu's landing aerials because short.

 

[pichuthedk]

Only thing I can think of probably, is going to be careful positioning and getting him air borne by launching him with dair before he can shield after his landing aerials.

 

[Shaya]

Inb4 sh dair is the option out of shield we need, but don't deserve.

 

[Peahnuts]

SH dair confirmed best OOS option :^)

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Pls guyse
Pls stahp
The MU isn't THAT bad