Data Official MU thread : Breaking Clouds Limits.

[Megamang]

You guys, what (non-sheik) match-ups give you a hard time and why?
I play ZSS and there isn't much character variety in my state. Also, I have bandwagon ZSS coming out the woodwork and I hate the ditto so I may pick up one of your suggestions.

Pika is a tough one for ZSS due to his really short stature. He gets really low during his attacks/endlag on aerials. Also, quick attack out of shield laughs at spacing attempts and ZSS doesn't have lingering hitboxes to easily combat it.

 

[Neutricity]

Pika is a tough one for ZSS due to his really short stature. He gets really low during his attacks/endlag on aerials. Also, quick attack out of shield laughs at spacing attempts and ZSS doesn't have lingering hitboxes to easily combat it.

Yes, I've fought one before and I had problems. How any of you feel about ZSS vs Ryu?

 

[Megamang]

I actually play that matchup pretty frequently. Both characters do amazing things on hit and have a pretty good set of projectiles for setting up their neutral game. ZSS has better mobility but Ryu can start combos off of more moves.

Pretty even, probably advantage to ZSS since she is just so oppressive and more mobile, though FADC is a unique and powerful tool.

Learn to tap the top of your toes with u-air against a falling ryu, that way you dont get Focus Attacked, and instead land free hits whenever he uses the move. Beware of Shoryoken, it might be better to pick a high ceiling stage against ryu, as odd as that is for ZSS.

 

[Wintropy]

Howdy, hi-tech bounty-hunting heroines!

The Pit / Dark Pit board is currently discussing the Zero Suit Samus matchup and we'd love your input!

Click here to board the interstellar ship to Skyworld!

I wonder what Nairo has to say about this~?

 

[HFlash]

Any general tips on dealing with Olimar? He is very short, and well, that's the gist of it. Can't seem to pull off SH nair or bair any where near consistent vs him. Especially since you can't just simply zone him out and force the approach unlike vs most MUs, how does ZSS best force the issue on to Oli?

 

[MoosyDoosy]

Any general tips on dealing with Olimar? He is very short, and well, that's the gist of it. Can't seem to pull off SH nair or bair any where near consistent vs him. Especially since you can't just simply zone him out and force the approach unlike vs most MUs, how does ZSS best force the issue on to Oli?

Eh. Biggest part of this matchup is getting in close. Use Zair/Nair/Bair to deal with Pikmin. I mostly rely on a read to get in. Standard thing Olimars do is do a hop and throw 2 Pikmin while in the air while saving the third. Make sure they don’t have a purple Pikmin then rush in with the approach of your choice when they’re landing from the hop. Send them in the air and body them.

As a note, ZSS’s grab is actually very effective against Olimars because their roll is so short and they get caught up in it.

So standard stuff. Use aerials to zone and try to get in. Read the way they throw their Pikmin. Use it to get in. Get them in the air to body them. Grab when in doubt.

Edit: Gosh darn I forgot gimping. When they're recovering, it's basically a free stock. Just use Down B and get the spike. They can stop their recovery to attack, but then they die. You can also spike them with Down B through the ledge.

 

[Otterz]

Is the "main discussion" ever going to be changed from Sonic or are we just gonna ask MU related questions? Just curious, it's been Sonic since I became active here!

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Is the "main discussion" ever going to be changed from Sonic or are we just gonna ask MU related questions? Just curious, it's been Sonic since I became active here!

pichuthedk is just lazy

 

[pichuthedk]

It is actually the truth , although I have started going to tournies again...when my broke butt can afford to.

You guys discussed sonic what are one of the Mus some Zss's are struggling with?

Personally have a Fox and pika problem.
-_-0 actually I had to cp castle this weekend and resort to running away after getting a lead all game Vs a sonic that got significantly better during my hiatus.

Anyways my Johning aside can a couple of you vote for what you would like it to be next?

*digging this new mobile(?) Interface.

 

[Otterz]

I've been having trouble with Mario recently, but Sheik is always a MU to discuss.

 

[Peahnuts]

Do we have enough on Rosa? If we do, I'll dig through the archives for info because I am in struggle town against our PR Rosa. If not, I'd be all up for help on that. Otherwise I also think Mario & Sheik are interesting enough for discussion. I personally think we go even with Mario or just edge out the advantage. Obviously we lose Sheik, but there are odd tidbits to the MU like how we can sorta kill her at 35%ish fairly reliably given the right scenario.

 

[Shaya]

What area are you having issue with against Rosa?
What are you getting punished by? What are you doing at the time?

I'm back to thinking less that we get wrecked by Sheik. Crawling, SH/FH mix ups to get closer, avoid getting dash grabbed, feel very free to attempt to hard dash grab landings or other possible lag, especially near centre stage because she can't really hard punish us with something scary until post 100% (tipper up smash: hard to hit, vanish on near perfect reaction or a high charged forward smash); do quarter circle movements up and away to reduce ftilt, dtilt or an aerial landing chain set ups.

 

[David Viran]

Sheik can't tipper usmash our grab lag because zss goes to low during it.

 

[Peahnuts]

What area are you having issue with against Rosa?
What are you getting punished by? What are you doing at the time?

I'm back to thinking less that we get wrecked by Sheik. Crawling, SH/FH mix ups to get closer, avoid getting dash grabbed, feel very free to attempt to hard dash grab landings or other possible lag, especially near centre stage because she can't really hard punish us with something scary until post 100% (tipper up smash: hard to hit, vanish on near perfect reaction or a high charged forward smash); do quarter circle movements up and away to reduce ftilt, dtilt or an aerial landing chain set ups.

I think there's 3 main things that I struggle with.
1. One being that I understand that getting rid of Luma should be a priority, but I'm unsure how to consistently do it. Our Rosa often positions Luma behind her, and makes good use of desync in other instances. I feel a lot of this is my lack of how Luma works in general. This is probably the main issue as Luma interrupts my combos and grabs. I understand bair and dash attack are both really good, but I don't think I'm setting myself up in situations to use them safely often enough.
2. Landing - Our Rosa is well known for his airdodge traps, and I'm not sure how to get away without expending down b (which I do), but if Rosa follows me without down b it becomes a horrible situation lol.
3. Recovering - I get caught by dair a lot using tether, so I try to mix it up with down b back on stage or to the ledge, but down b also gets caught by dair.

 

[Shaya]

Sheik can't tipper usmash our grab lag because zss goes to low during it.

Her hands are the tippers IIRC, so I've seen it happen horizontally before, but maybe not feasible in this scenario at all (I should've said something like: "likely doesn't hit"; because it's her strongest KO option otherwise and it being non-applicable is great).

I think there's 3 main things that I struggle with.
1. One being that I understand that getting rid of Luma should be a priority, but I'm unsure how to consistently do it. Our Rosa often positions Luma behind her, and makes good use of desync in other instances. I feel a lot of this is my lack of how Luma works in general. This is probably the main issue as Luma interrupts my combos and grabs. I understand bair and dash attack are both really good, but I don't think I'm setting myself up in situations to use them safely often enough.
2. Landing - Our Rosa is well known for his airdodge traps, and I'm not sure how to get away without expending down b (which I do), but if Rosa follows me without down b it becomes a horrible situation lol.
3. Recovering - I get caught by dair a lot using tether, so I try to mix it up with down b back on stage or to the ledge, but down b also gets caught by dair.

1. It's less of us getting rid of luma and more so us negating Luma or being able to keep up our game plan to some extent without fear. If the Rosa is putting luma behind her, I'm not entirely sure what you're struggling with. Remember that zair can stun luma and hit rosa pretty safely, you can well space aerials on Luma and be near completely immune to Rosa counter attacking. With Zair and good movement, Rosalina is -forced- to approach Zero Suit.

2. That's what Rosa does. Her up smash is invincible. More down-b mix ups would be likely helpful: b-reversing it, kicking for rocket momentum. How are you getting in the air in a poor situation in the first place? Grabs? Dash attacks?

3. You don't need to only recover below the ledge and you need to hold onto your double jump as long as possible most of the time. Side-b into a ledge snap is stupidly fast and the distance it can do so and the angles at which you'll travel towards the ledge have variance. Rosa should not be freely down airing our recovery when there is just that much variability in your timing and spacing for recovering. Weave more. Mix up your timings. React more. Think more.

 

[Equin0x]

Rosalina can give me trouble purely because I struggle with comboing hen Luma's around and I struggle to stsrt comboes with Luma gone because the rosalina typically resorts to shield and roll and other hard-to-punish options that simply waste time while Luma returns.

I struggle with Pikachu mainly due to the short height that makes oos options difficult and the hard-to-punish nature of Quick Attack.

I know I shouldn't, but I struggle with Sonic because once he gets the lead he I'm scared to attempt a grab during spin charge cancels and I'm overall not sure how to counter Spin Dashes.

Robin a secret kryptonite of mine because of two factors: aerials and arcfire. Everything about Robin's aerials but their landing lag is just so fantastic and hard for me to deal with. Their strong, fast, large, and scary. Arcfire is a problem for me to deal with because it sets up a wall that, when shielded unfortunately, leads to grab or Nosferatu, when jumped over late gets you hit by an aerial, and when jumped over early gets you caught in the fire in midair. I have a slight problem with disjoints and no footage of this MU to watch. Pls help.

And then of course Sheik

 

[Neutricity]

I'm annoyed with Villager. What precautions do you take?

 

[Shaya]

Dash attack is really good as a mid range punish. You can dash attack, take a non-sweetspot fair/bair, dash attack again guaranteeed~
Most things on your shield is dash attack punishable.

The use of ftilt and zair (which can beat fair/bair) is good for poking, outranging and punishing stuff in close quarters, up tilt can help here too for intangible legs (that can beat nair/uair/dair).

They don't have much of a usable grab, so railing on their shield (as long as you aren't dair/nair oos range) is pretty swell.

Flip Jump Kick is a no brainer as Villager encroaches the ledge with balloon trip. As you will bounce off any hurtbox, and the balloons are hurtboxes, as long as villager doesn't immediately grab the ledge, you're getting a stock, and if they do grab the ledge you'll still bounce off the balloons and be in not too precarious a situation.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

You can also just grab him when he spawns a lloyd since the first half of our dThrow is invincible.
At high percent you can run past the lloyd before it has a hitbox and just uSpecial him.
There is no need to jump a lot in this MU honestly. Villagers ground options are rather bad. No need to stack the fAir/bAir chip damage.

 

[Honor]

I'm finding the Captain Falcon MU extremely annoying right now. Is zair safe at all? Falcon is so fast that if I miss or if he perfect shields it feel like I get punished every time. I guess my questions is: what are the safest options on CF's shield?

I go about 50/50 in this one but I find it very very frustrating even when I do win.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

I'm finding the Captain Falcon MU extremely annoying right now. Is zair safe at all? Falcon is so fast that if I miss or if he perfect shields it feel like I get punished every time. I guess my questions is: what are the safest options on CF's shield?

I go about 50/50 in this one but I find it very very frustrating even when I do win.

zAir is one of our best moves in this MU. Free grabs for days. nAir, bAir, uAir, zAir are all safe on shield with correct spacing.
If he PSes your zAir all the time try to jab after landing. Also if he PSes all the time stop using whatever move he is PSing all the time. It shows that you get predictable if that happens.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Falcon we win neutral really hard but he can kill us at 50% with knee if he gets rage. It's a dumb ****ing matchup.

 

[Honor]

zAir is one of our best moves in this MU. Free grabs for days. nAir, bAir, uAir, zAir are all safe on shield with correct spacing.
If he PSes your zAir all the time try to jab after landing. Also if he PSes all the time stop using whatever move he is PSing all the time. It shows that you get predictable if that happens.

I think I must be getting locked into a pattern and I'm just not noticing it.

Just a quick clarification: If I hit Falcon with Zair within grab range it's a guaranteed grab?

 

[pichuthedk]

Ok so far I am seeing

Pikachu
Falcon
and killanger.

Let's go ahead and get rid of pikachu since he is causes alot of problems.

Starting off Pika's smalls so hitbox awareness is key in just about all exchanges in the MU especially if he's coming from the air.
If he's coming from the air safe bets would be high angled f-tilts, up smashes or well spaced upairs and nairs unless he's landing quickly then low angled f-tilts are ok if your reacting accordingly.

Personally I hate uptilt in this MU it fails a majority of the time based on the average pika players areial spacing.

Pikachu gets RCO if we hit him out of his QAtk although in hindsight this is easier said then done.

Pikachu has several different edge guard attempt's the frequent ones i see are run off falling bair to stop tethers/low recoveries, Down b stall off stage sometimes breverse thunders.

It is possible for pikachu to fair us for days are the right % for a decent chunk of our stock

I am gonna update this as you sexy suits post and it will be cleaned up alot.

Do NOT DI Pikachu's D-Throw in, I'm pretty sure it just gives him free combos for days.
to avoid Up-Throw -> Thunder just hold Left or Right. You have to be holding it almost before the throw however since it is fast. (Similar to Puff's Up-Throw -> Rest in Melee)- Otterz for reminding my fraudulent self xD

 

[Otterz]

Alright, this stupid little mouse. I have a good friend who plays a lot of Pikachu, but I usually go Diddy in that MU. Here are some stuff that I've just kinda noticed, but please correct me on anything you feel isn't accurate.

• Do NOT DI Pikachu's D-Throw in, I'm pretty sure it just gives him free combos for days.
• Avoid using F-Smash
• Avoid using F-tilt unless angled downward
• Simple knowledge vs Pikachu in general, but to avoid Up-Throw -> Thunder just hold Left or Right. You have to be holding it almost before the throw however since it is fast. (Similar to Puff's Up-Throw -> Rest in Melee)
• Be very careful with your recovery, if the Pikachu is confident enough he can easily catch our Flip Jump with a Thunder Cloud spike (At least from my experience.)
• I haven't found to good of a way to deal with ThunderJolt, but Nair seems like a good option.

Well that's all I have off the top of my head.

Paging NickRiddle who probably is well versed in this MU.

 

[pichuthedk]

Alright, this stupid little mouse. I have a good friend who plays a lot of Pikachu, but I usually go Diddy in that MU. Here are some stuff that I've just kinda noticed, but please correct me on anything you feel isn't accurate.

• Do NOT DI Pikachu's D-Throw in, I'm pretty sure it just gives him free combos for days.
• Avoid using F-Smash
• Avoid using F-tilt unless angled downward
• Simple knowledge vs Pikachu in general, but to avoid Up-Throw -> Thunder just hold Left or Right. You have to be holding it almost before the throw however since it is fast. (Similar to Puff's Up-Throw -> Rest in Melee)
• Be very careful with your recovery, if the Pikachu is confident enough he can easily catch our Flip Jump with a Thunder Cloud spike (At least from my experience.)
• I haven't found to good of a way to deal with ThunderJolt, but Nair seems like a good option.

Well that's all I have off the top of my head.

Paging NickRiddle who probably is well versed in this MU.

In regards to thunder jolts honestly I've had so many mixed results based on the moves I use (probably because I lack the discipline to use the utmost precision that is required)
I've been successful with Sh b-reversed side b's (where you destroy the jolt with the first hits and follow through to explode on his face)
I've gotten "lucky with timing and spacing the hits of fair to clip the first one and get him as well
As well as zair to either trade or hopefully hit through it and then pika.

So it's a toss up honestly I guess if we have the lead we could just low angled f-tilt the jolts as they land and follow up with jab to avoid his grab...Nair or rather the back hit of nair sounds like a good idea.

I'll add the throw stuff in now I completely forgot about that since I am on auto pilot after being grabbed some of time ;p.

 

[Honor]

I have almost no experience in this MU in tournament. pichuthedk can you clarify what you mean by no DI after the rat's dthrow? It seems like if you don't DI somewhere he would combo you anyway; why not mix up which way you DI throughout the game?

Again, I honestly have pretty much zero experience in this MU so forgive me if the question is stupid.

 

[NickRiddle]

Learn Luigi.

 

[MOM Samus]

Diddy Kong is really good on ZSS. I played one very comparable to ZeRo yesterday.

 

[pichuthedk]

I have almost no experience in this MU in tournament. pichuthedk can you clarify what you mean by no DI after the rat's dthrow? It seems like if you don't DI somewhere he would combo you anyway; why not mix up which way you DI throughout the game?

Again, I honestly have pretty much zero experience in this MU so forgive me if the question is stupid.

In all honesty you can but the way I see it, I would rather get faired or feel aerial pressure then potentially just get thunder struck by placing myself above him. Zss is sort of the same as in brawl where she loves having people above her but when its about coming down it's not always the smoothest ride.

Pikachu can use all of his throws for different reason unlike other characters imo.
back throw can be used for those annoying walk off stages and kill you stupid early.
f-throw at low %s for tech chases IIRC.

Now his down throw is his combo starter which as mentioned by Otterz can if you DI incorrectly give him the ability to combo you longer then usual, I assume the typical get faired like x2 -> up air x2 or something dumb.

When you Di his move in ( as in you are holding your analog stick towards the pikachu) you won't move as far away from him being probably directly above him at which point it's easier for him to combo you.

http://www.gfycat.com/FlatHelplessAlligatorsnappingturtle

^^^
half way through that assault Esam grabbed zero and down threw him which he did not DI placing him just above pikachu to get combo'd more. Trying to create distance from throws gives your opponents less time to get to you and continue to wail on you.



His up throw is basically the same thing except you need to play the MU enough to know when to expect his grab -> up throw.

if you fail to DI it properly OR react when you've DI'd out of it this is what happens to you.

Please correct me if I have posted wrong I don't want to be "that guy" who willfully spreads misinformation xD.
Also Nick is probably right So long as daddy Sakurai doesn't take a bat to WEEEGIIIS kneecaps.

Diddy Kong is really good on ZSS. I played one very comparable to ZeRo yesterday.

I seriously need me one of those I hate that MU so much, One of my regions PR's mained him and I used to not be able to really do much to him but since the nerfs it feels like I might be able to take a set but I just don't feel like I actually am earning it....

 

[Honor]

But doesn't it still make sense to mix up DIing to the left or right?

 

[pichuthedk]

But doesn't it still make sense to mix up DIing to the left or right?

I feel like Yes and No because I am unsure how long it takes him to call thunder down (because If after the throw he has time to realize I am still right there and call down thunder I have to pretty much down B immediately to get away).

I do mixup despite what I said and sometimes I avoid combos because he goes for something else, But half of the time those mix ups are just me inputting something else after being interrupted by things like quick attack, the push back of his dair , his landing fair or bair.

I have a few people that can help me potential grind out the MU but my findings won't really be as valuable as someone who can face Higher level pikachus that utilize his tools like edge cancels or QA slope slides.

 

[NickRiddle]

But doesn't it still make sense to mix up DIing to the left or right?

No.
If you DI wrong you get bodied just as hard as if you didn't DI.
You need to DI in front of Pikachu ALWAYS

 

[Honor]

No.
If you DI wrong you get bodied just as hard as if you didn't DI.
You need to DI in front of Pikachu ALWAYS

So if he grabs you and dthrows you, you should DI left OR right depending on which way he is facing?

 

[Otterz]

So if he grabs you and dthrows you, you should DI left OR right depending on which way he is facing?

Yes, hold away from Pikachu.

Also, since I have a relatively decent Diddy secondary I could play some of you guys that are struggling if that'd help.

 

[NickRiddle]

Always DI in front of Pikachu.

 

[pichuthedk]

Yes, hold away from Pikachu.

Also, since I have a relatively decent Diddy secondary I could play some of you guys that are struggling if that'd help.

sure although I never know when I am on Mans in facebook always say "wifi anyone?" is usually how I go about it.

0-suit-ryoko is my nnid

 

[David Viran]

Welp this MU may have changed a bit.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Welp this MU may have changed a bit.

Not too much honestly. We need to step up our nAir hit rate and play more aggro.
Spacing is the key word in this MU. His fAir being super good now shouldn't be a big concern, and we don't need to block his TJolts. If we do, it's rather easy to PS them. His QA is hardcore now, but all our aerials are kinda stupid now too.

Also spontaneous thought: QA is quite telegraphed, maybe it's possible to reliably PS both hits...

 

[David Viran]

I was talking more neutral wise. This goes for more then pika too. Our aerials being this good on shield helps in the Diddy MU because we can be safer against nana . Which was the biggest problem in the MU before.