Data Official MU thread : Breaking Clouds Limits.

[pichuthedk]

I feel like I can concur with both of your points although, Imo it feels like we have to revisit a couple of the discussed MU's already.

 

[FullMoon]

Hello bounty hunters the Greninja boards started another season of MU discussions and we're opening up with you.

Click here to go to the ninja pond

 

[Blue Banana]

Hi, I made a new Olimar matchup thread, and the ZSS MU is one of the first to be discussed. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

http://smashboards.com/threads/piklopedia-the-olimar-matchup-thread.421920/

 

[A_Kae]

Hello, Zero Suit Samus players! The Marth and Lucina sub-forum has begun matchup discussion and analysis on the Zero Suit Samus matchup. If you have any input to add, or wish to fight against a Marth/Lucina player for matchup experience, please join us at the following link.

http://smashboards.com/threads/vs-zero-suit-samus-matchup-discussion-and-analysis.422137/

And be sure to check the directory thread for the rules and guidelines.

http://smashboards.com/threads/matchup-discussion-and-analysis-directory.414156/

 

[Cat8752]

Hey ZSS mains, I'm wondering if there's a MU chart with most/all of the MUs ZSS has. I'm also kinda considering picking her up since she seems to cover Yoshi's MUs pretty well, and would like to know if she has any bad MUs other than Pika/Sheik.

 

[pichuthedk]

I am pretty sure we don't have one of those atm lol.

Maybe as nairo to make one of those and we can discus it's accuracy and determine why the mu's are either in our favor or not.
This thread was for more in depth Mu discussions.

 

[HoodedAltair]

Sup peeps, repping the Ryu boards here and we're discussing the ZSS matchup right now. Views from her side appreciated!

Consensus right now is looking 50/50. Add your 2 cents!

http://smashboards.com/threads/talk...2-zero-suit-samus.410547/page-2#post-20386604

 

[M32]

May we talk about Fox? Good Fox wreck me and I often get 2stocked even by players at my level of skill. There's no character I have so much trouble with as Fox.

 

[pichuthedk]

So a few of you guys wanted to discuss fox I am going to attempt a write up on pikachu but I am fairly certain it wI'll be lackluster...

Anyways its my bday today so I'll see if I am up to it later if I don't have plans.

 

[pichuthedk]

*reserved for pikachu*

 

[Annihilat®]

So a few of you guys wanted to discuss fox I am going to attempt a write up on pikachu but I am fairly certain it wI'll be lackluster...

Anyways its my bday today so I'll see if I am up to it later if I don't have plans.

Happy Birthday!

 

[Honor]

My sparring buddy is a Fox main so I deal with this for several hours every week

Fox wants to keep us above him and on stage as much as possible. He has multiple reliable kill setups on us so that can make life hell when we get above 90% or so. The other side of that coin is that Fox has to mix up his recovery options a lot because we can harass the hell out of him off stage.

If Fox recovers with Firefox then we can bair him either into the stage or UNDER the stage depending on how deep we are willing to go or if the stage is the right shape (It's much easier to bair him under Smashville than Battlefield). If he recovers with Firefox diagonally I have found that you can flip kick spike him with good timing. Fox's phantasm we can also bair if we read it right.

His jab is evil. Evil.

I tend to grab less in this MU just because if you miss Fox will punish you HARD. If you we get an early kill then it's slight advantage us. If Fox can survive to above 115% it's slight advantage him. Overall I'd say it's a 50/50 MU.

I haven't read any Fox advice by the better ZZS's; the above is all based on my exp.

 

[pichuthedk]

Happy Birthday!

Awe thanks fam thats a kawaii picture of the Bae you got.

Honor

Mmm well I see what your saying I tend to just let fox try and recover and punish his get up option because I have not learned the timING for his things and I am inconsistent with his Firefox recovery.

So the phantasm your saying we would bair him when he's trying to grab the ledge ?


For now what I know is we shouldn't bother with stages that have low ceilings I dislike the tradeoff vs fox even though he's considered light.

Dreamland , Halbard, tnc all seem suicidal in most cases unless we're better at the early juggle game which can net us those boost kick kills off the top.

I've lost so many games I felt like I had a chance because the stages top blast zones were lower than I'd prefer.

 

[Honor]

pichuthedk

We absolutely can bair his phantasm. I don't always go for it because he's going to mix up his timing but if you read it right you can definitely do it.

I completely agree about the low ceiling! I take Fox to Dreamland or Battlefield.

 

[Annihilat®]

Fox can't kill from a grab. Stand in shield to piss him off.

 

[pichuthedk]

Until he dairs-> up tilt or upsmashes to break our shield lol, but yeah I do do that sometimes because I'd rather be grabbed then upsmashed

Plus I heard we can body people with raged boost kicks.

 

[Annihilat®]

Fox does give me trouble over most characters, but I just go Samus on him instead. He shouldn't break our shield from D-air gayness because you can Boost Kick OoS. And you can kinda see that a mile away since he has to be in the air for the dair. Plus now ZSS can play more offensive than ever. But RIP D-smash and Paralyser.

 

[pichuthedk]

Fox does give me trouble over most characters, but I just go Samus on him instead. He shouldn't break our shield from D-air gayness because you can Boost Kick OoS. And you can kinda see that a mile away since he has to be in the air for the dair. Plus now ZSS can play more offensive than ever. But RIP D-smash and Paralyser.

Learning the rip paralyzer and downsmash thing now which sucks when I'm starting to use more charged downsmashes.

 

[Honor]

It's a pain and can be annoying but I find this MU the most fun to play in the entire game. I have to really focus and play well if I'm going to win and I love that!!

 

[Annihilat®]

I don't really use a charged Paralyser against Fox since it can lead into you getting Up Smashed. Uncharged is perfectly fine since it still combos into grab. But watch out if someone crouches before getting stunned--decreases stun time.

Down Smash is still here, but people just never think to drop shield and attack you. If you know they're going to drop shield and attack you, best bet is a Jab since it comes out quick.

 

[pichuthedk]

I seriously believe we have a 0-death on fox in this mu with down smash. But I have to test it and learn not just the timing but also the positioning required which makes it twice as hard.

You'd have to alternate from the strong launch hitbox to the weak one and be on point with walking asap to position for the next downsmash.

I believe I tried this before by down smashing him and then holding shield whIle going frame by frame to attempt the downsmash lock

 

[Annihilat®]

D-smash combos into another one? Never had it happen without someone perfect shielding it, or you referring to the landing lag 4 frames they have?

 

[Honor]

I seriously believe we have a 0-death on fox in this mu with down smash. But I have to test it and learn not just the timing but also the positioning required which makes it twice as hard.

You'd have to alternate from the strong launch hitbox to the weak one and be on point with walking asap to position for the next downsmash.

I believe I tried this before by down smashing him and then holding shield whIle going frame by frame to attempt the downsmash lock

If this is true... holy crap!!! Would make my decade.

 

[pichuthedk]

D-smash combos into another one? Never had it happen without someone perfect shielding it, or you referring to the landing lag 4 frames they have?

Basically yeah what your saying , however
I am referring to if you go into training and hold shield till it breaks and while he's stunned land a downsmash and keep trying to get it again while alternating to the weak launch box after the initial downsmash.

You should be able to get another one from the moment they land and before he can shield again in brawl it was different but it in this we can mix it up with the soft launch.

What I'll do is go and try to get a match on youtube where I change the controls on p2 to shield and try to go for the timing.

I know I've done it before via pressing L for frame by frame while I held shield on the other controller but it was really hard for me to be consistent while making sure I wasn't letting go of shield with my foot or whatever.


The problem is even if we learn this fox is a real jerk so doing it in a real match at 0% seems unlikely unless you get a read OR Possibly having them air dodge into the ground from an uptime or upsmash.


Once we get him to like 35 % we can probably get a ff nair to flip jump spike but obviously di is a thing so there's that obstacle.

 

[pichuthedk]

Honor [/USER] if it pays off it'll help me make every fox my property (when I learn to successfully bait /read xD)

 

[Mayday]

Talked a small bit about the Roy-ZSS MU. Not my most knowledgeable MU, but ZSS probably takes it 65-35. ZSS has the tools to effectively space and zone Roy. Roy's weight makes it easy for him to be combo'd, especially with Uairs. Zair and Nair are amazing at keeping Roy at a safe distance and putting ZSS in an advantageous position.

http://smashboards.com/threads/zss-roy-match-up-discussion.423036/#post-20447598

 

[pichuthedk]

Well Imo I tested this myself and from 0 roy down throw gives him like 2-3 up tilts, And us comboing him doesn't really mean anything unless we get that up B from 55% ish.

I just honestly get this scene in my head where I go for a greedy up b to see roy manage to air dodge it (possibly because I was to slow/hesitated for a moment before the attempt), Only to fall down slowly and see him charge his fsmash and kill my ass.

 

[pichuthedk]

So my original hypothesis seems unlikely ( Pretty sure I was attempting close to frame perfection).

However here is something that I came up with the only annoyances would be the DI when you get the grab.

 

[David Viran]

The dsmash lock also works on sheik. In training mode it worked until sheik was over 13% pre hit when sweet spotted and I didn't try sour spot.

 

[pichuthedk]

The dsmash lock also works on sheik. In training mode it worked until sheik was over 13% pre hit when sweet spotted and I didn't try sour spot.

Yeah it works on all fast fallers tbh the thing is where they go and if they slide /how fast they fall.

I originally tested something like this on shiek I'm the 3ds days.

I was talking to V115 and he did bring up the good point that I need to test the di to see how true this is.

The only argument I had was that since it's such a low % fox can't really go anywhere left or right. However he was interested in whether fox could vector towards zss and get sweet spot downsmashed after the first and jump out.

It honestly looks like he can't but I'll need a partner. Or someone to test and debunk this with their sparring partner.

Funny thing is during my original testing I put fox at 5% and was getting 35-65 chance that he would die off the top of he slipped out of the up b ( I was messing up so hard ).

Then I ended up doing it perfectly that last attempt catching him with the up b.

 

[David Viran]

I tested it with DI to and it didn't seem to do much. I even tried to test SDI but I don't even know if that's a thing on dsmash lol.

 

[pichuthedk]

I tested it with DI to and it didn't seem to do much. I even tried to test SDI but I don't even know if that's a thing on dsmash lol.

Nah it shouldn't be it hits you once and that's all so basically di doesn't really help fox so even if he can di and get away from you a bit with down throw you can still chase him with the up air or even upsmash -> up air it looks like.

The only thing that sucks is the practicality of this since it'll be kind a hard to get that first one on fox lol.

Also David Viran did you test out the di's for all 8 directions ? I really doubt that does anything but I forgot to specify that's what V115 had also said.

I guess for example like if you held up and in or up aND away to attempt to jump out.

 

[Honor]

Looking forward to trying to implement this :D

 

[pichuthedk]

Looking forward to trying to implement this :D

Well so far the only issue is being fully ready for chasing him early when you down throw I screwed the pooch on that one when I got someone to help me at a tourney.

The downsmashes -> were perfect too ...

Maybe I should running upsmash him and then try the up airs.

 

[LordShade67]

Well Imo I tested this myself and from 0 roy down throw gives him like 2-3 up tilts, And us comboing him doesn't really mean anything unless we get that up B from 55% ish.

Actually, Zamus can Flip Jump after the first UTilt and Roy has to guess where you land.

 

[pichuthedk]

Actually, Zamus can Flip Jump after the first UTilt and Roy has to guess where you land.

Weird well I guess it's prob because I was doing it by myself that I never really got to do much zzz ty.

 

[AstroCRiS]

However here is something that I came up with the only annoyances would be the DI when you get the grab.
[/QUOTE]

http://smashboards.com/threads/zss-...to-death-on-fastfallers.424421/#post-20504196

heres a link to Trifroze's 0-death on fast fallers including Sheik and Fox

 

[pichuthedk]

However here is something that I came up with the only annoyances would be the DI when you get the grab.

http://smashboards.com/threads/zss-...to-death-on-fastfallers.424421/#post-20504196

heres a link to Trifroze's 0-death on fast fallers including Sheik and Fox[/QUOTE]

yeah so I already posted about that in the other thread lol was close to my original hypothesis but I was to busy worrying about making sure I landed the downsmashes without letting them shield, Unfortunately I gave up on the nair inclusion because I was trying to do it after the third downsmash but then ended up coming up with 3 downsmashes -> grab -> bread and butter up air /upb.

Kinda salty someone beat me to it =[

 

[G. Stache]

Hello, ZSS mains, the Luigi boards are discussing the ZSS MU right now. Any input from your side would be great. If interested, click the link below!

http://smashboards.com/threads/luigi-match-up-discussion-thread.382918/page-13

 

[Zelbur]

However here is something that I came up with the only annoyances would be the DI when you get the grab.

In the Fox (and most fastfallers) match up, D-Throw followups are even better. It is way easier to get D-throw > Bair even at kill% because he doesnt fly as high as other chars. Also if he DIs away, you can dash > reverse Uair > DJ Bair fairly consistently as well.