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Official Metaknight Discussion

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Judo777

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the reason the timer is there is to ensure that the game will actually end. If i am playing at a tournament and down 2 stocks at 180% and they havent been hit yet and 12,000 dollars is on the line if there wasnt a timer i would run away for the next 17 hours until the other player had to go to sleep. (this is obviously and exaggeration but you get the point) some characters have the ability to completely avoid the opponent in all reasonable sense's. Infact i bet of someone tried enough with jiggs they could avoid everyone bar a few characters if someone tried hard enough. And at that point its not even a matter of getting the lead. Its just getting away and waiting out ur opponents physical endurance.
 

Kaffei

Smash Hero
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omg brawl is a casual game!
people are just now realizing this? melee was too just people take them too far, they werent designed with all this high end metagame stuff or MU opinions.
Your only options are have fun, or play metaknight
Um.. Who says you can't have fun playing MK? He's the only char in the game I find fun except maybe TL..But that's besides the point. :S
 

Shaya

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Umm, the Truth, you are being silly.

Brawl is defaulted to be played with a timer of 2 minutes.
This is not arbitrary by our means, but by the game's developers (but things like this are generally considered law so whatever)
The game competitively is played with a timer.

It is US who decided to arbitrarily extend it to three stocks rather than it being based off a timer.
This is to create the illusion of a health bar.
In timed matches it wouldn't matter either way, we just decided that instead of it going to time and the winner being declared by amount of stocks, that once a player reaches 3 stocks the game may end [early].
We decided to extend the timer to 8 minutes due to precedence from melee (which was arbitrarily decided at 2 minutes for each stock, which in melee days became 4, hence 8 minutes). We didn't follow this formula, hence games are not 6 minutes in length.

The timer is the defining factor of this game. Everything else (playing with stocks when it feasibly isn't needed, and extending the timer) is arbitrary.

Smash 64 doesn't have a timer in stock play. Hence why I feel that the game should be played in time mode and ended when 5 stocks have been lost by a single player.
It is because of the gross misunderstanding from the majority of smash players that this fighting game is based on stock rather than time that results in the humongous amount of moaning and *****ing when people are actually playing to win by the DEFAULT option provided by the game.
 

Roie

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I thought timers were made so large tournaments would actually progress and people wouldn't be playing 15 minutes games in a bo3
 

Kaffei

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I thought timers were made so large tournaments would actually progress and people wouldn't be playing 15 minutes games in a bo3
That too.
I wonder why at tourney play 5 they did 9 mins instead of 8...
 

ぱみゅ

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Umm, the Truth, you are being silly.

Brawl is defaulted to be played with a timer of 2 minutes.
This is not arbitrary by our means, but by the game's developers (but things like this are generally considered law so whatever)
The game competitively is played with a timer.

It is US who decided to arbitrarily extend it to three stocks rather than it being based off a timer.
This is to create the illusion of a health bar.
In timed matches it wouldn't matter either way, we just decided that instead of it going to time and the winner being declared by amount of stocks, that once a player reaches 3 stocks the game may end [early].
We decided to extend the timer to 8 minutes due to precedence from melee (which was arbitrarily decided at 2 minutes for each stock, which in melee days became 4, hence 8 minutes). We didn't follow this formula, hence games are not 6 minutes in length.

The timer is the defining factor of this game. Everything else (playing with stocks when it feasibly isn't needed, and extending the timer) is arbitrary.

Smash 64 doesn't have a timer in stock play. Hence why I feel that the game should be played in time mode and ended when 5 stocks have been lost by a single player.
It is because of the gross misunderstanding from the majority of smash players that this fighting game is based on stock rather than time that results in the humongous amount of moaning and *****ing when people are actually playing to win by the DEFAULT option provided by the game.
That means that everything you though about fighting in Smash is a lie...
 

jinkogunai

Smash Apprentice
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Umm, the Truth, you are being silly.

Brawl is defaulted to be played with a timer of 2 minutes.
This is not arbitrary by our means, but by the game's developers (but things like this are generally considered law so whatever)
The game competitively is played with a timer.

It is US who decided to arbitrarily extend it to three stocks rather than it being based off a timer.
This is to create the illusion of a health bar.
In timed matches it wouldn't matter either way, we just decided that instead of it going to time and the winner being declared by amount of stocks, that once a player reaches 3 stocks the game may end [early].
We decided to extend the timer to 8 minutes due to precedence from melee (which was arbitrarily decided at 2 minutes for each stock, which in melee days became 4, hence 8 minutes). We didn't follow this formula, hence games are not 6 minutes in length.

The timer is the defining factor of this game. Everything else (playing with stocks when it feasibly isn't needed, and extending the timer) is arbitrary.

Smash 64 doesn't have a timer in stock play. Hence why I feel that the game should be played in time mode and ended when 5 stocks have been lost by a single player.
It is because of the gross misunderstanding from the majority of smash players that this fighting game is based on stock rather than time that results in the humongous amount of moaning and *****ing when people are actually playing to win by the DEFAULT option provided by the game.

Although I agree with most of your explanation for the development of the current rules that is competitive brawl, i disagree on your take of time as being a deciding factor while stocks and stock time being arbitrary. its not there because someone just decided to be there with no real backing, its based of of a standard. the goal is to win and a win needs to be clearly defined in competitive play. to bring up default setting for a game that wasn't designed in mind to be competitive but more of a casual " fun for everyone " mindset, i wouldn't even comparing the two. if anything, the default modes are more arbitrary because they are geared to promoting a fun gameplay, but what type of fun is it promoting?
 

DMG

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He lost to Vex, admittedly probably only because he didn't abuse Tornado.
 

DMG

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He tries to play as MK without that much tornado. Why? Ask him. To me, it was to make a point and he did it IMO
 

Turbo Ether

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Assuming you're talking about Ally: Yeah, at Pound 4 his MK did lose to Vex's Bowser on FD. No, he didn't use Tornado. At the same tournament, he beat Cable's DK without using Tornado, which is pretty amazing.
 

Red Arremer

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I'd say tornado isn't nearly as match-deciding in Bowser vs. MK as chaingrabbing is in DDD vs. anybody.
Rather like... not using tornado as MK vs. Bowser is like not using FTilt-locks as Sheik against Spacies. It won't break your game against them, but it's not exactly making it easier for you.
 

Turbo Ether

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Wolf vs MK on Delfino is even or slightly in Wolf's favor. Step yo' metagame up, son. You heard it hear first.
 

Flayl

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your starting to change your data from top mks to the best mk of every region.
Huh? Are there any top MKs I left out? I was asking because I know there are a LOT of MKs in Canada, one of them is bound to be pretty good.

IMO you should remove seibrik and add ally's i think he is undefeated atm with him beating people like lain and adhd.
If Ally has more than 2 tournament placings with MK I'll add him. To clarify I didn't even consider adding him in Pound 4 because he was limiting himself.

And yeah last I checked seibrik changed to G&W. ANd Havok to Snake. So I should probably take those two off.
 

GHNeko

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aerial is down, press it while I'm jumpin' up
then hit the b button like i don't give a ****
i know you wait for it, but your out of luck
i can do the same thing every single time
I'm a top-tier, no, I'm a god-tier.
I know I'm broken, yeah
I'm a problem that'll never ever be solved

And no matter what you'll never get rid of me
Stealing your cash, because it belongs to me.

I'm amazin', so amazin', so amazin', so amazin'
I'm amazin', so amazin', so amazin', so amazin'
I'm amazin'
(Let's go)

I'm a planker, I'm a staller
I know this metagame ain't changin'
Spamming B like, I don't give a ****
I'm the only thing I'm afraid of

no matter what you'll never get rid of me
I'll take every tourney, you just wait and see.
 

Shaya

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Sheik not having tilt locks against the spacies would pretty much have her getting close to severely beaten by all of them.

It's her primary means of punishment, damage and kill options in all 3 match ups... without it it would be like sheik vs jigglypuff...
 

swordgard

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Also .joel, tornado does break the matchup. Without the tornado this is probably in bowsers advantage.
 

Goldenadept

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i'm pretty sure for all intents and purposes wolf will get trashed by mk in most situations. granted he can deal with the gayer parts of mk a little better but trashed nonetheless
 

etecoon

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dunno if I'd use the word trashed but I really can't see it being an even matchup or in wolfs favor on any stage
 

Goldenadept

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it really depends on who the wolf is and the mk, but wolfs main focus is his aerial game which gets destroyed by mk, one fair and wolf is put in an awful situation, but i guess if the fairs whiffs then wolf has the upperhand for a second.
maybe trashed wasnt the right word you're right, but wolf definatly doesnt have an advantage over mk on any stage
 

Judo777

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LOL at the sheik comment.

Sheik is a hard counter for fox with the ftilt lock but without it its probably even.

Sheik vs wolf is barely in sheiks favor WITH the tilt lock without it she would definitely lose.

Sheik vs falco is even WITH the tilt lock. Without it she would be *****. The falco mu with sheik is "get the tilt lock on falco and take his stock or get ***** by the fact that he is such a good character."
 

Red Arremer

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it really depends on who the wolf is and the mk
Of course it depends on the players, but when comparing characters or talking about matchups, the quoted sentence should not weigh in any way.

Generally speaking, if a character has different ways to play, then all of them should be taken into consideration when talking about matchups or the character's strategies in general. If character A's tactic X wins easily over character B, then it would - on paper at least - not make sense for A not to use X against B. But if A's player doesn't use X because of whatever, then it's their own decision. X is still a valid tactic and should always be kept in mind.

LOL at the sheik comment.
Yea, we had cleared up that I made a mistake, thank you very much.
 

The Truth!

Smash Ace
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Messages
991
Umm, the Truth, you are being silly.

Brawl is defaulted to be played with a timer of 2 minutes.
This is not arbitrary by our means, but by the game's developers (but things like this are generally considered law so whatever)
The game competitively is played with a timer.
Like someone mentioned I highly doubt the developers created the default timer with with the intention of making the game competitive. I never said the default settings were absolute law, and considering the competitive scenes have made them stock based it doesnt seem it doesnt seem to be taken as such (as far as this function goes at least).

The losing player is forced to approach because the winning player EARNED their advantageous position. It's the whole reason that there is a timer in the first place. It's to reward the player who did the best by ending the game in his victory at an arbitrary cut-off point. If there was no timer, two truly competitive players would just sit there and do nothing, if camping was the best tactic. (it is, 90% of the time)

I mean yeah, it sucks to have to approach since you're losing, but maybe you should have sucked less. Then you wouldn't be the one who has to approach.
This may be a 'benefit', but I highly doubt the bolded portion is true. Its purpose seems very simple, to prevent matches from taking ages.
 

Shaya

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The Truth,
what you seemed to have missed was,

That Super Smash Bros multi-player was made to be played with a timer.
Everything else from that point is us working with this precedence with our arbitrary decisions to make the game more competitive in our eyes.
 

Mota

"The snake, knowing itself, strikes swiftly"
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I've been hearing a lot of Pro-ban arguments which seem legit, but what exactly are anti-bans reasons for why MK shouldn't be banned?

Form what I've gathered, the amount of unavoidable restrictions on MK is massive compared to any other character, and yet MK still dominates. What more is there to restrict before it's just stupid...
EDIT: Belongs here.
I'll put it this way. For all intents and purposes, Scrooging is unbeatable. It's not only powerful on its own, but it is a free extension tool for people to surpass ledge grab limits while staying perfectly safe.

I would have no problem putting restrictions on a character IF they worked, were easy to enforce, were not numerous, etc. The one solid restriction put on MK is IDC (and extending the cape period). Even this has slight problems in that his cape naturally extends when he touches the ground with it, and that you could get away with extending the cape distances if the opponent/referee isn't sure exactly how far it normally goes or how long it lasts. You can also extend it with the control stick instead of the Cstick but that's more of a minor clarification issue.

However, past this, there is NOT a single good restriction on MK. At all. Ledge Grab Limits for example are subjective and matches can be directly influenced sharply by what number you pick. You can either pick a number too high, and MK is not affected at all, or you pick a number too low and gameplay becomes painfully restricted or people get creative and find ways to bypass the LGL (AKA scrooging or air camping extensively or gliding out to the boundaries and coming back to the stage, going under the stage and using reverse shuttle loop, whatever). Another problem with them is that there is no national standard when it comes to the number you should use. Some regions have it low, some have it higher, etc. For a rule that is designed to be this important and regulate a game breaking aspect of a character (assuming you are only applying a LGL to MK himself, which... I'll get into), you should NOT have these varying and conflicting numbers used. It would be like people having different rules on how long you could extend the cape before you are DQ'd or people not being sure whether you should be allowed to EVER glide under the stage. If you come to a decision, it needs to be common and the accepted standard. When it comes to the LGL, there will never be a standard even if we the SBR throw out a recommendation out there.

Now, before someone plays the "Oh well the timer is subjective too, and stocks are subjective too, and they can have an impact on gameplay, bajsdkljalda" card, we need to realize the difference between those kind of rules. Rules like that are meant to be the ground work for competitive play. You set a standard, that most people can agree on or with or will accept, and you have it commonplace used. The idea is to have a general layout for tournament play that will allow it to function well. Doesn't have to be perfect, and will not be perfect, but that is the goal. The difference between that and something like a LGL is that you honestly don't have that many varying views or beliefs on what is the best approach/numbers to use, and that you aren't applying them as regulating rules for specific characters, or to specifically balance the game. You DO want a stock+time combination that keeps things well run and the metagame healthy as possible, but you don't institute stock+time BECAUSE of balance or regulation.

I'll put it this way: Stock+time is like the Constitution (or the idea of it). Sure, it may be subjective in what you include or how much/how little, but it was established as a framework for society to progress. LGL would be like Healthcare Reform. Something needs to be done about the current system (MK being able to do it freely), but at the same time there are strongly varying views on what needs to be done. Whatever you decide to do DOES have a huge impact on society/metagame/whatever metaphor you want to associate with it. People aren't gonna agree on 1 decision, and you can bet different states and regions will have different systems or views.

Now, scrooging. Let's say you want to limit that to help combat people beating the LGL. What do you do/what rule do you suggest? No gliding under the stage period? 2-3-multiple times and then you have to be hit or hit the opponent? Have a GUL (Glide Under Limit)? Seriously, there's no good way to say or define scrooging and try to limit it. You either come up with something stupid like MK can't ever glide under the stage, or something that probably won't affect him that much.

Eventually, it will progress to MK players learning how to air camp extensively to waste out time, and then people are gonna cry out for something like an Air to Ground Ratio Limit so that he can't spend all his time in the air trying to run out time. If you want to properly restrict MK, you are gonna have to put up with multiple unattractive rules in place against solely him. Maybe more rules than you really want. Maybe the community truly thinks the best route to take is just restricting him extensively, but I look at other fighters and I don't think I see a single instance where a serious community decided to go down this path, or at least as far as we are planning to take it.


Regardless of what you think, what is clear is that MK with no holds barred is by far clearly broken and something has to be done for the health of the game. You either have restricting him or outright banning him. Those are our only options unfortunately.
 
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Like someone mentioned I highly doubt the developers created the default timer with with the intention of making the game competitive. I never said the default settings were absolute law, and considering the competitive scenes have made them stock based it doesnt seem it doesnt seem to be taken as such (as far as this function goes at least).


This may be a 'benefit', but I highly doubt the bolded portion is true. Its purpose seems very simple, to prevent matches from taking ages.
Actually, that is exactly why the timer is there. So that, if the losing player doesn't approach, he loses.

I've been hearing a lot of Pro-ban arguments which seem legit, but what exactly are anti-bans reasons for why MK shouldn't be banned?
First of all, there's AvaricePanda's really quite good post which I have almost forgotten; I need to look it up again in this stupid thread. And then there's everyone else's posts, where it comes down to "we will ignore the ban, get the MKs, and rake in more money than the MK-banned tournaments", "MK being dominant enough to be banned is a matter of opinion" and "LALALALALALA WE'RE NOT LISTENING".
 

etecoon

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"MK being dominant enough to be banned is a matter of opinion"
it is, though. that's why this topic is only good for artificially inflating your post count, trolling, or doing both of those until you get into the back room for it somehow in spite of being a random

in all seriousness I think the ISSUE of meta knight is more corrosive than meta knight himself. this needs to end but it never will, the last poll WAS supposed to be the final decision but neither side will back down because following protocol is for losers. pro ban will ignore any finality of a decision against them and continue the crusade, anti ban will and already has plans to ignore any attempt at banning MK. this entire debate is a joke.
 
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