Official Metaknight Discussion

[Tien2500]

Scrooging is basically drawn out planking. Planking is hard enough to beat, scrooging is on roughly the same or on a slightly lower level of strength. On Smashville in particular, because of the platform it allows MK to perform this safer. What most people fail to realize is that the tactic is still viable on stages besides Smashville. You can do this on Frigate, FD, Battle Field, Rainbow Cruise, etc.

RC? I'd like to see that.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Here's an idea; just ban MK's Dair after he's used his first midair jump.

With all these rules to restrict MK, I figured we'd need one to cover aircamping lol

Lol.

The funny thing is, we don't even really need a rule against planking for MK. It's certainly not unbeatable. Certain characters can beat it. Both of his methods have vulnerable frames. So why ban it, if it's beatable?

TBH, most anti-bans here should also be against banning planking. A rule against planking is unnecessarily weakening MK where it isn't necessary. It's an important development for character metagames to figure out how to beat planking IMO.

IDC? Maybe...

 

[etecoon]

Seems like he's using MK a lot actually. I was at the GROAT tourney and he used MK to good results against both Atomsk and Fatal in order to win the tournament, though he also used snake of course. I believe these are his two most recent tourneys, but I might have missed one.

curious who he used MK against in the first one, already knew about GROAT and that he actually kinda depended on MK to win that <_<

I really feel like the fact that we have had to make specific rules solely for MK in order to *attempt* to limit his effectiveness and they still haven't decreased his use should probably mean more than it does.

why would you stop maining your character if they get a bit worse if they're still top tier? not only top tier, still the best character in the game! but even if a restriction on MK caused him to become worse than snake/diddy/falco, that STILL wouldn't warrant giving him up at all. why would you even expect that lol

 

[dainbramage]

Hypothetical anti-scrooge rule. Find loopholes pl0x.

If you grab a ledge, you may only grab a different ledge on the same platform after one of these events occur:

a) you take damage and/or pushback (G&W uair, FLUDD, etc) from your opponent or a natural hazard. Damage taken from being off-screen doesn't count.
b) you stand on the platform containing the ledges in question (i.e. on smashville you have to stand on the main platform. The moving one won't count)

If you violate these conditions you forfeit the match.

EDIT: Added natural hazard clause

 

[DMG]

Here's a huge obvious loophole:

Grabbing the edge is not a necessity for scrooging. You don't have to grab the edge ever when doing that.

Smaller loophole is that someone who grabs the edge could jump/drop from it, go above the stage, and if they didn't touch the ground or take damage they technically could not grab the other edge, despite it probably being fair/acceptable by most people's standards for them to do so.

Honestly if you want a scrooging rule, here's what you do. You cut out the middle man and just outright deny MK the ability to go under the stage period. Then establish a LGL of 10 or under solely on him (or outright ban him from grabbing the edge ever) and you now have nerfed the character to the point where I wouldn't be surprised if people wanted to have an Air/Ground time Ratio Limit, you know, just to make sure MK can't aircamp now. I say if you limit him, go the full 9 yards. Cut this "Oh we want to be nice to MK" bullcrap. If you want to limit the character from being broken, don't be a p**** and nerf his a** hard already.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

But are the nerfs really warranted? Is there really a pressing reason for them?

 

[ADHD]

I feel that the timer needs to be extended 2-3 minutes.

We base our ruleset off of melee, where there are very seldomly time-outs because it is by far a faster-paced game. Now in brawl, the timer is set to 8 minutes just like melee. Observe at the amount of time-outs in comparison to melee that we see in this smash game. Metaknight can still win by air planking as a last resort even if he were to lose with conventional fighting, and that's all because of the timer being sufficient enough to allow this.

This character is already hard as **** to play against as it is, lol.

 

[Red Arremer]

I dunno, almost all characters can do something about MK aircamping.

 

[rathy Aro]

There's a planking thread by DMG that more or less proves MK's planking is broken though I would still like to see evidence from tournies that show its broken as well. I've seen MKs abuse the ledge when they only have 2-3 minutes left on the clock, but because we always have LGL they simply can't go the whole 7-8 minutes (or can they?).

@DMG: I want to agree with that sentiment, but how can we justify arbitrarily weakening MK that much? If we got that far he could end up being worse then snake which implies that snake is also "too good" and needs similar limits. At that point playing Balanced brawl sounds like a better choice then playing vBrawl anyway.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

There's a planking thread by DMG that more or less proves MK's planking is broken though I would still like to see evidence from tournies that show its broken as well. I've seen MKs abuse the ledge when they only have 2-3 minutes left on the clock, but because we always have LGL they simply can't go the whole 7-8 minutes (or can they?).

It proves it's good. It also proves that it is beatable. It's only a few frames, but you can stop/beat it.

 

[ADHD]

I dunno, almost all characters can do something about MK aircamping.

When you only have 8 minutes to stop it it can really be difficult if he has the lead and he's abusing the air the entire time.

 

[Pierce7d]

When you only have 8 minutes to stop it it can really be difficult if he has the lead and he's abusing the air the entire time.

Especially if it's on a stage like Delfino, or Rainbow or something which gives them massive amounts of options to run away and make severe punishments for approaching.

Not that I'm pro-ban, because I'm not, but I'm still calling it like it is.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Why not, pierce?

 

[rathy Aro]

It proves it's good. It also proves that it is beatable. It's only a few frames, but you can stop/beat it.

Iirc mk can maintain invincibility throughout the entire process of planking. How exactly is that beatable? Maybe I didn't understand the thread well. Please explain how it can be beaten?

Also even if it was proven beatable, that just means MK's matchups aren't 100-0 with planking. They could still be 90-10 and that would pretty much be broken and thus ban worthy.

 

[etecoon]

ITT: we speak as if planking were legal or considered legitimate, and thus is a valid reason to ban meta knight

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Iirc mk can maintain invincibility throughout the entire process of planking. How exactly is that beatable? Maybe I didn't understand the thread well. Please explain how it can be beaten?

Also even if it was proven beatable, that just means MK's matchups aren't 100-0 with planking. They could still be 90-10 and that would pretty much be broken and thus ban worthy.

With downB planking, he has 1 vulnerable frame and the pattern is perfectly visible; he can't change it up at all.
With drop->uair->jump->uair planking, he has 6 vulnerable frames. Drop a 'nade in that.

 

[OverLade]

I dunno, almost all characters can do something about MK aircamping.

LOL that's as arbitrary as saying every character can stay ahead of MK in percent....

 

[DMG]

You... you aren't actually suggesting that his planking is not broken right? Cause I rarely scoff at people, but this would be an occasion for me to do such.

Etecoon, what places have planking banned? Im not talking about a LGL, I'm talking about "Plank and the TO will disqualify you" even though that is kind of subjective and not that great of a rule lol. LGL doesn't even try to STOP planking, it tries to limit it to some form or amount that is"acceptable" to people.

Also yeah ADHD let's increase the timer. Remember what I did to you at Genesis with a 16 minute timer? :D

 

[OverLade]

You... you aren't actually suggesting that his planking is not broken right? Cause I rarely scoff at people, but this would be an occasion for me to do such.

Etecoon, what places have planking banned? Im not talking about a LGL, I'm talking about "Plank and the TO will disqualify you" even though that is kind of subjective and not that great of a rule lol. LGL doesn't even try to STOP planking, it tries to limit it to some form or amount that is"acceptable" to people.

Also yeah ADHD let's increase the timer. Remember what I did to you at Genesis with a 16 minute timer? :D

I'm sure many players would be willing to step up to the challenge lol.

12 minutes of running away with a 20 ledgegrab limit...CAN YOU DIG IT?

 

[DMG]

What the hell kind of ruleset is that? That's like a fap gauntlet from hell, NO one is the winner.

 

[etecoon]

You... you aren't actually suggesting that his planking is not broken right? Cause I rarely scoff at people, but this would be an occasion for me to do such.

Etecoon, what places have planking banned? Im not talking about a LGL, I'm talking about "Plank and the TO will disqualify you" even though that is kind of subjective and not that great of a rule lol. LGL doesn't even try to STOP planking, it tries to limit it to some form or amount that is"acceptable" to people.

Also yeah ADHD let's increase the timer. Remember what I did to you at Genesis with a 16 minute timer? :D

DNA(NE series, usually occurs monthly) ruleset

"* - Excessive stalling and planking are banned. (T.O.s discretion) The 40 ledge grab rule will be in effect FOR SINGLES AND DOUBLES. A player may not grab a ledge more than 40 times per match, or they will take a loss for that match. If you believe you are being stalled or planked, pause the match and call over a TO. For doubles, each player may not go over 40 ledge grabs for that match."

we haven't had an issue with it. IIRC inui had a similar "don't be a douche" rule that I saw players complimenting him on, it's not that complicated to tell when someone is stalling and call them out on it

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

You... you aren't actually suggesting that his planking is not broken right? Cause I rarely scoff at people, but this would be an occasion for me to do such.

Etecoon, what places have planking banned? Im not talking about a LGL, I'm talking about "Plank and the TO will disqualify you" even though that is kind of subjective and not that great of a rule lol. LGL doesn't even try to STOP planking, it tries to limit it to some form or amount that is"acceptable" to people.

Also yeah ADHD let's increase the timer. Remember what I did to you at Genesis with a 16 minute timer? :D

I'm not saying it's not good. I'm saying that it's beatable. Beatable elements should be explored more before being banned. I imagine snake can beat a planking MK, Diddy, maybe a few others? (I mean potentially beat; planking is a massive advantage, but so is using MK).

 

[DMG]

If I plank the crap out of you, and grab the edge less than 40 times, what happens? You would have two contradicting rules. Have one or the other IMO.

Snake can't beat it. The problem is that grenades run on a timer. That and being able to blow them up while being invincible, or abusing down B to the edge. Diddy... don't even get me starter. I don't wanna bring Gnes or hell, even ADHD into here and have them tell you "Yeah... Diddy is actually bad against planking". Another MK can beat it, but only with OOS Dair and also assuming the other guy isn't spaced perfectly.

 

[etecoon]

If I plank the crap out of you, and grab the edge less than 40 times, what happens? You would have two contradicting rules. Have one or the other IMO.

how does it contradict? it's a supplemental rule, and in reality is just an interpretation of the standard SBR ruleset: stalling is banned at TO's discretion, if the TO decides you're stalling you get DQ'd. seeing as you yourself proved that MK's planking is game breaking stalling, it falls under that

 

[Gnes]

Lol.

The funny thing is, we don't even really need a rule against planking for MK. It's certainly not unbeatable. Certain characters can beat it. Both of his methods have vulnerable frames. So why ban it, if it's beatable?

TBH, most anti-bans here should also be against banning planking. A rule against planking is unnecessarily weakening MK where it isn't necessary. It's an important development for character metagames to figure out how to beat planking IMO.

IDC? Maybe...

Im sorry....but this post....has just made my day.
Of course, assuming this is a joke post.

 

[etecoon]

Snake can't beat it. The problem is that grenades run on a timer. That and being able to blow them up while being invincible, or abusing down B to the edge. Diddy... don't even get me starter. I don't wanna bring Gnes or hell, even ADHD into here and have them tell you "Yeah... Diddy is actually bad against planking". Another MK can beat it, but only with OOS Dair and also assuming the other guy isn't spaced perfectly.

another thing MK's need to do more is that, a lot of snake's use grenades dropped near the ledge to pressure and then retreat from MK's invincibility frames, more MK's need to start instant throwing them back before he can strip them

in general MK players need to get better with items, only a few are as proficient with them as diddy/snake mains and that is IMO a lot of why diddy/snake have unusual success rates against MK's

 

[o-Serin-o]

Also yeah ADHD let's increase the timer. Remember what I did to you at Genesis with a 16 minute timer? :D

Believe it or not, a longer clock would actually kinda discourage planking or time outs.

 

[DMG]

how does it contradict? it's a supplemental rule, and in reality is just an interpretation of the standard SBR ruleset: stalling is banned at TO's discretion, if the TO decides you're stalling you get DQ'd. seeing as you yourself proved that MK's planking is game breaking stalling, it falls under that

Ok then, define planking/stalling.

Hence, whatever the person deems is planking or stalling, they can now DQ you for it. Not a very concrete rule lol. Most stalling things are clear and easy to see. Infiniting to run out the clock, IDC, etc. Planking is basically just an over powered form of edgeplay, and it's hard to define well what is and isn't planking. Look at scrooging, where does that fit in with planking? If I don't grab the edge but scrooge, do I get DQ'd? What if I do both but moderately? What is too much and why?

Serin, a longer clock just means you have to be more patient. Think about it like this: if people are complaining that MK can run out 8 minutes way too easy, how is adding Half or less of that time on top of it gonna actually improve anything? Might as well double the timer if you want to discourage people from playing gay ever.

I'm disappointed that people are suggesting we change the timer, stage list, and ruleset to fit in this character with no guarantee that he will be fit for competitive play.

 

[etecoon]

I don't think a longer clock does anything against planking but it would hurt MK's air camp, his air camp relies entirely on "I can't really get at you unless you come to me BUUUUT I bet you can't do __% to me in _____ minutes", increase the second value and it gets weaker and weaker vs anyone with good projectiles at least

 

[OverLade]

Assuming that the average player can punish the small frame window of planking means you should also assume that the average MK will be frame perfect in his efforts to avoid these attacks.

And **** it, 20 minute timer, 10 ledgegrabs, WE GOT DIS.

 

[dj asakura]

Are people really proposing we invent and alter MORE rules in order to limit MK instead of just getting rid of him? Wow.

With downB planking, he has 1 vulnerable frame and the pattern is perfectly visible; he can't change it up at all.
With drop->uair->jump->uair planking, he has 6 vulnerable frames. Drop a 'nade in that.

So then Snake is MK's only "counter" (aka, slightly in MK's favor still). So our only option is to use Snake to stop it. Ok, so let's forget the rest of the cast let's make the Brawl metagame a MK and the occasional Snake.

Does anyone else see how flawed some of these arguments are? I'm not saying I have the best logic but to say "MK has 1 frame of vulnerability on this and 6 frames on this version of it, so you can stop it" is absurd. And what's to stop the MK from continuing to do that even though you know where those frames are? It'll still be much easier for the non-planker to mess up and allow the MK to keep timing him out.

 

[etecoon]

Are people really proposing we invent and alter MORE rules in order to limit MK instead of just getting rid of him? Wow.

not really, all you have to do is ACTUALLY ENFORCE the current TO discretion ban on stalling

 

[DMG]

And it's good to have this "stalling" unclear and the fate of matches in the hands of people that might have varying views? Cmon. You don't have 5 Magic the Gathering Referees and the card is banned if 3/5 or more think it should be. Akuma isn't told that depending on who is the TO, that anything from 3-15 air fireballs is too much. If you want to limit MK, at least have some kind of rule that is simple to enforce that is CLEAR. A rule you can implement in any region that doesn't have something decided from player/person perception.

 

[1048576]

How? I say you're stalling. You disagree.

This is why you use objective criteria. Hell, why even play stocks. Just set the timer for 8 minutes and let the TO decide who wins every match.

 

[DMG]

I have a better idea:

If you pick MK, the TO declares that you lose. The rule enforces itself, who would dare think about picking MK lest the TO come over and say GOOD GAME GENTLEMEN.

If two people pick MK, the one who picked him first loses. Just for clarification on this immense fa****ry.

 

[etecoon]

And it's good to have this "stalling" unclear and the fate of matches in the hands of people that might have varying views?

there'd be little reason to try your luck doing it if you don't have a known limit like 40 ledge grabs, at least. it's more pragmatic than attempting to ban MK when there is a large portion of the community that simply will not go along with that under any circumstance

 

[Turbo Ether]

10-11 minute timer? God, tournaments would take forever...

 

[DMG]

Well we should make FD a counterpick and Castle Siege a Starter and Delfino banned because there are a lot of people who could not accept the alternative.

That's like saying MK should be banned because a large number of people can't stand him being in the game and will have a riot if he stays legal. I would find that a poor argument for banning a character. Now sure, obviously you would expect people to be upset or not happy with a ban worthy character, but I wouldn't say "AXE HIM" or "KEEP HIM IN FOR ROUND 15" just cause people won't accept the alternative.

 

[etecoon]

That's like saying MK should be banned because a large number of people can't stand him being in the game and will have a riot if he stays legal.

pro ban has proven to be too spineless for that. 2 years later and there's still almost no one hosting MK banned tournaments even though half the community says he should be banned. if xyro is the only one of you willing to fight for what he believe in whole heartedly I doubt there will be riots ;\

 

[DMG]

Oh yes. We should keep him in the game now because people are spineless. We have the guts to butcher him like a cow, but not to simply remove him. What fools are we.