Official Metaknight Discussion

[Conviction]

You're a legit antiban so I'll actually talk w/ you.

Anti-ban trolling (you excluded) has been in this thread for quite some time. Days, weeks, I'd say the whole time the thread has been up. I fail to realise the point of contributing if the opponents (overall) do not wish to contribute legitimate material either.

The thread should be closed. I would give the meaningless win to antiban only for the fact that people in said group are the same people who inforce the split in the community.

Edit:@Iblis, I like how a guy in the comments said he uses proper grammar but he mispelled the word itself. lmfao

LOL I must of missed that.

 

[Orion*]

giant red handprint on my face

i just thought you always looked like that

You're a legit antiban so I'll actually talk w/ you.

Anti-ban trolling (you excluded) has been in this thread for quite some time. Days, weeks, I'd say the whole time the thread has been up. I fail to realise the point of contributing if the opponents (overall) do not wish to contribute legitimate material either.

The thread should be closed. I would give the meaningless win to antiban only for the fact that people in said group are the same people who inforce the split in the community.

Edit:@Iblis, I like how a guy in the comments said he uses proper grammar but he mispelled the word itself. lmfao

what makes me unlegit? i post as much legit stuff as anyone else bro

 

[ShadowLink84]

why wouldnt i interpret a matchup based on the level of people that are playing? when i interpret mus for Myself i always think of perfect play, however half the people in this thread are scrubs and complain that this game isnt catered to them.

...
What?
So you, assume perfect play (impossible) and then say low level play for others.
I am sorry this HAS to be one of the most stupid things I have heard.
High level play.
End story.

if we were only assuming top level of play, then there wouldnt be an mk ban debate.

According to your OPINION.

oon second thought, forget it, you're just...dense.

 

[solecalibur]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=266129
lawl
same could be said about other higher tiers but the fact that the topic is still open

 

[Judo777]

Aw dang it i missed the post by about 7 pages where someone threatened to beat someone up with MMA experience then have them arrested and sued. Man u dont read for a day and u miss everything. Because of course someone with MMA experienced could totally beat the piss out of someone then sue them and then they would lose because anybody with that much training isnt allowed to do that without warning people u have that much training.

PS anyone who talks about being able to fight that well in real life probably is lying because the people that can dont learn it so they can threaten people with it online lol.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Actually I know Adumbrodeus in person. =\

 

[fkacyan]

Actually I know Adumbrodeus in person. =\

Does he do sweaty **** punching IRL?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I think I need to click the report button more for people trolling this thread, it's getting stupid at this point.

I don't see how people can refute some of the chart data posted, frame data is something you can't make up and if you did someone would have found out by now.

 

[OverLade]

then you made a mistake. im assuming that you arent making mistakes, because it should be happening. yes, we are humans, and judgement calls are important, dont take that wrong, but as a community we are SOOOOO lazy. it shouldnt be acceptable to make mistakes, we should strive to punish something if its humanly possible.
nobody wants to practice and learn their character, its pathetic.

at least thats my general exp. from the nationals and east coast tournaments ive been to.

What you're calling laziness is actually difference in natural processing speed... Plenty of people practice this game hardcore, play wifi all day and watch videos/study other players/the boards. Why are they not all pro level?

If it were that simple then everyone who made an effort be pro and people who don't make an effort wouldn't be. But I guarantee you it's simply not like that...

 

[ShadowLink84]

Does he do sweaty **** punching IRL?

I will make sure to ask him XD

 

[Orion*]

...
What?
So you, assume perfect play (impossible) and then say low level play for others.
I am sorry this HAS to be one of the most stupid things I have heard.
High level play.
End story.


According to your OPINION.

oon second thought, forget it, you're just...dense.

all you have is opinion. except youre not loose enough to admit it, whereas i am. therefore in actuality YOU ARE DENSE. its not stupid to give people on different levels different views, because in all honestly a lot of people suck at this game. in discussion of overall banning him then Yes it is relevant and on top level, however people post mu numbers in scrub realm and i have to be like na that only works if you suck bro

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I worded that wrong. i meant to say that you dont ban characters to increase diversity.

I think that crows statistics are legit but neglible. Though i think that the data for planking really hit anti ban hard. Hence why im on the fence about this. also for a temp ban...


Its really sort of silly.
It wont really do anything ether. what happens when meta knight comes back. What are you looking for when you actually do it. you already know that the results are going to change... you will have gained nothing except the opinion of the community which would be subjective on how much they like the situation with him gone. with him gone how do you prove that he is ban worthy. you have gained no ground. You ether ban him or you dont plus you are taking players practice with the character away. Theres no criteria to say that he is banworthy and the very fact that a temp ban would happen would be becuase you "feel" like having him gone.

I think you're missing the idea of the temporary ban. We (pro-ban) have set up arguments that cannot reasonably be proven without seeing what the metagame without MK looks like. If these are even close to accurate, then we're really solid. What we're arguing for is a much more balanced, better game with a far larger high tier (we're talking halfway into C tier here). Additionally, far more balanced tournament results... Basically, we're promising that half of the borderline viable characters become viable.

You should be infracted.

This.

Anti-ban is a joke. Period.

Nah. They still have Adumbrodeus and a few other sane people. It's just the biggest

I think I need to click the report button more for people trolling this thread, it's getting stupid at this point.

I don't see how people can refute some of the chart data posted, frame data is something you can't make up and if you did someone would have found out by now.

@MODS!!!

Please do not lock! Just deal with the trolls, there's legitimate discussion here, it's just being buried under mountains of ******** posting!

P.S.

This is still a god-tier decision for this thread. Judging from the quoted posts? I'm not missing anything worthwhile. Seriously, for anti-ban's sake. He's making them all look bad, and he's making us look bad when we fall for his terrible trolling.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

What you're calling laziness is actually difference in natural processing speed... Plenty of people practice this game hardcore, play wifi all day and watch videos/study other players/the boards. Why are they not all pro level?

If it were that simple then everyone who made an effort be pro and people who don't make an effort wouldn't be. But I guarantee you it's simply not like that...

There are ways to practice reaction time, but as you said, it's not easy.

Processing speed, to a degree, is something your born with. You can work on getting it more precise, I've seen people use hand held stop lights to help train themselves for drag races so they could get the timing down precisely for when the light turned green.

Still, it's only one part of a person's game, while it is something that is required other factors can come in and make up for it.

 

[MarKO X]

isn't the whole drag racing thing a little different tho?
that's more timing than reaction, right? like when you start a race in Mario Kart and you gotta press the accelerator at the right moment... eventually you can do that with your eyes shut.

the point is understood, but with fighting games, it's different in that the situation can be different every time, and that's why you gotta keep mixing things up when you have various options for a given situation, so that you can throw off your opponent's reaction time. It's always easier to react to something that you know is coming... let me see if I can find a certain video...

edit: wow, i look up reaction on youtube and all i get is 2 girls 1 cup. let m try reaction time.

 

[theunabletable]

This is still a god-tier decision for this thread. Judging from the quoted posts? I'm not missing anything worthwhile. Seriously, for anti-ban's sake. He's making them all look bad, and he's making us look bad when we fall for his terrible trolling.

I've made like 2 or 3 posts about LGLs today that no one has replied to (they were mostly aimed at you )...

 

[cutter]

I would agree that the drag racing analogy is different. You're focusing on perfectly timing one event that you know will happen. It's all a matter of precision.

And while I would love to see this thread stay open, I have a feeling it's getting shut down again .

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I guess to a degree my example is flawed, but I was trying to illustrate that people practice reacting to a change in scenario, yellow light to green, to help themselves react better.

You get the point though, and again while reaction time is a key part of a game it's only a part, Yomi and other things are just as valuable to playing it.

 

[MarKO X]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eo7jcI8fAuI
the video in question. lolol

it actually serves little purpose... but is quite entertaining.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I've made like 2 or 3 posts about LGLs today that no one has replied to (they were mostly aimed at you )...

Ah.

Currently, MK-specific LGLs seem like it would not really be such a huge problem, hypothetically. I still don't like it, though. While it removes a very broken strategy from MK, it also removes legitimate strategies such as non-broken ledgestalling; that is, MK using the ledge as a position which is obviously very advantaged for him. But that's a small loss... My main issue with the rule is that it's a rule specifically to limit a broken character.

 

[theunabletable]

^Except it's not specifically to limit him, and if you were to read ANY OF THE POSTS I've made in atleast the last week in this thread you'd know I'm not proposing any such thing.

It is there to ENFORCE the rule we already have, and according to DMGs data, MKs hardcore planking fits the SBRs criteria for stalling. And it's pretty much impossible to DQ someone for planking since it's so subjective of what it might be, so a rule made to enforce our stalling rule that is in our current ruleset right now is REQUIRED.

And even IF it were to limit MK (which is not, it's to enforce rules we already have as it seems to be the only way to enforce the no stalling rule we already have), it wouldn't be any different from the current rule being made to limit characters who DON'T need limitations.

 

[Karcist]

all you have is opinion. except youre not loose enough to admit it, whereas i am. therefore in actuality YOU ARE DENSE. its not stupid to give people on different levels different views, because in all honestly a lot of people suck at this game. in discussion of overall banning him then Yes it is relevant and on top level, however people post mu numbers in scrub realm and i have to be like na that only works if you suck bro

I haven't heard of you until this thread, and you didn't make it out of pools at pound 4 (just checked), so I don't see what makes your opinion any more significant than anyone else's.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I went pro ban because I realized we were placing way too many rules on him to restrict him, most of these rules aren't even BBR accepted people just put them him.

Going by the current BBR ruleset MK is banworthy.

The character itself is causing problems.

 

[theunabletable]

Going by the current BBR ruleset MK is banworthy.

Except the current SBR ruleset is flawed in that it has no way to enforce the no stalling rule that MKs hardcore planking breaks (as it makes him unhittable to the point that the game is unplayable, he's as unhittable as a Jiggs rising pound stalling in Melee).

I haven't heard of you until this thread, and you didn't make it out of pools at pound 4 (just checked), so I don't see what makes your opinion any more significant than anyone else's.

To be fair, how good someone is at the game has nothing to do with how much they know about the game or how good their opinions are. For instance, most people don't give a **** about M2Ks opinions even though he's... well... M2K.

Although can you not quote Orion? I have him on ignore and I don't want to see his posts. You could do something like: @orion: (message goes here) but don't quote him please lol.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

^Except it's not specifically to limit him, and if you were to read ANY OF THE POSTS I've made in atleast the last week in this thread you'd know I'm not proposing any such thing.

It is there to ENFORCE the rule we already have, and according to DMGs data, MKs hardcore planking fits the SBRs criteria for stalling. And it's pretty much impossible to DQ someone for planking since it's so subjective of what it might be, so a rule made to enforce our stalling rule that is in our current ruleset right now is REQUIRED.

And even IF it were to limit MK (which is not, it's to enforce rules we already have as it seems to be the only way to enforce the no stalling rule we already have), it wouldn't be any different from the current rule being made to limit characters who DON'T need limitations.

Well then you hit the issue that in your blanket rule, you're limiting the character in other ways. For example, against falco. The ledge and/or below the stage is an incredibly advantaged position for MK. Even though it isn't really stalling, you're removing the strategy of "stay around the ledge, abusing the ability to be below the stage a lot against falco" from Metaknight, more or less. An unfortunate side-effect, but this is a ban you can't really do effectively.

Except the current SBR ruleset is flawed in that it has no way to enforce the no stalling rule that MKs hardcore planking breaks (as it makes him unhittable to the point that the game is unplayable, he's as unhittable as a Jiggs rising pound stalling in Melee). To be fair, how good someone is at the game has nothing to do with how much they know about the game or how good their opinions are. For instance, most people don't give a **** about M2Ks opinions even though he's... well... M2K.

The MBR Ruleset doesn't have rules against rising pound or peach bomber stalling either. Not any more.

Although can you not quote Orion? I have him on ignore and I don't want to see his posts. You could do something like: @orion: (message goes here) but don't quote him please lol.

This. DEAR GOD THIS.

 

[Orion*]

I haven't heard of you until this thread, and you didn't make it out of pools at pound 4 (just checked), so I don't see what makes your opinion any more significant than anyone else's.

because we all know what MY pound 4 experience was REALLLY about

For instance, most people don't give a **** about M2Ks opinions even though he's... well... M2K.

most of these people are idiots. he knows SOOOOOO much gay **** about this game that you dont even understand >_>

 

[theunabletable]

Well then you hit the issue that in your blanket rule, you're limiting the character in other ways. For example, against falco. The ledge and/or below the stage is an incredibly advantaged position for MK. Even though it isn't really stalling, you're removing the strategy of "stay around the ledge, abusing the ability to be below the stage a lot against falco" from Metaknight, more or less. An unfortunate side-effect, but this is a ban you can't really do effectively.

Pretty sure that limits MK less than an outright ban lmao. Seriously it's way better to have a ledge grab limit to stop MK from breaking the rules and make some of his options weaker than ban MK.

The MBR Ruleset doesn't have rules against rising pound or peach bomber stalling either. Not any more.

But it does suggest a stalling rule and rising pound is generally accepted as stalling as you CAN'T hit Jiggs.

Regardless it makes the game unplayable. He is at a position where he can never, ever, ever be touched, and its sole purpose is to time someone out.

It's as much stalling as using IDC (with more room for error) is.

He is as unhittable as pretty much everything we've ever banned for stalling (IDC, CGs past 300% (which is unnecessarily limiting characters who don't need limitations at all), Jiggs' Rising pound).

I don't see anything that shows it as anything other than stalling to use the SBR definition. You cannot touch him any more than you can't touch Jiggs Rising Pound stalling in Melee.

Most tournaments in Melee have a rule for stalling that mentions Jiggs rising pound (SBR suggests such a rule as Jiggs' rising pound is considered stalling). For instance look at Pound 4 ruleset: "•Controller Mods, Glitches (IC Freeze Glitch, Mewtwo Soul Stunner, etc), and tactics used to stall a match (wall-bombing, rising pound), are banned."

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Except the current SBR ruleset is flawed in that it has no way to enforce the no stalling rule that MKs hardcore planking breaks (as it makes him unhittable to the point that the game is unplayable, he's as unhittable as a Jiggs rising pound stalling in Melee).

The bolded is the problem.

It's near impossible to enforce something that is part of the game like this.

Jiggs rising pound is more evident because it's obvious and easily enforceable, Jiggs is going back and forth at a spot that is unreachable.

The MBR Ruleset doesn't have rules against rising pound or peach bomber stalling either. Not any more.

From what I understand, no one was tried to abuse it in a tournament yet.

Peach can't stall with it except with a wall behind her, aka Fourside.

 

[theunabletable]

^A ledge grab rule enforces it...

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

^A ledge grab rule enforces it...

An arbitrary number that can be worked around, scrogging or stalling out when you regrab the ledge.

 

[theunabletable]

An arbitrary number

Our current stalling rule has arbitrary numbers (300% for a CG)

that can be worked around, scrogging or stalling out when you regrab the ledge.

So? I'm not talking about what stalling ability MK has with a ledge grab limit and if you bothered to read through my posts and not assume things I haven't said then you'd know that.

I'm saying that an MK specific LGL is required before we even attempt to talk about his stalling skills or whether or not he should be banned. I haven't mentioned AT ALL his other stalling skills or whether or not he'd be able to time people out with an LGL.

 

[Orion*]

An arbitrary number that can be worked around, scrogging or stalling out when you regrab the ledge.

then you arent doing dmgs dframe perfect planking wich makes you hittable lol

 

[MarKO X]

most of these people are idiots. he knows SOOOOOO much gay **** about this game that you dont even understand >_>

lol
Assuming this is true, you'd think he'd know the Diddy matchup.

 

[fkacyan]

lol
Assuming this is true, you'd think he'd know the Diddy matchup.

Things being what they are currently, I'd argue that Diddy wins on neutrals, and thus the matchup with our current stage selection rules.

 

[OverLade]

Things being what they are currently, I'd argue that Diddy wins on neutrals, and thus the matchup with our current stage selection rules.

No.

Where's your arguement now?

 

[ph00tbag]

Our current stalling rule has arbitrary numbers (300% for a CG)

300% is the highest percent you can start the match with using a handicap.

 

[Justblaze647]

Things being what they are currently, I'd argue that Diddy wins on neutrals, and thus the matchup with our current stage selection rules.

Hence the issue between theorycrafting on paper, and applying said assumptions in real life...

It just rarely ever turn out that way.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Our current stalling rule has arbitrary numbers (300% for a CG)

Read the post above me.

So? I'm not talking about what stalling ability MK has with a ledge grab limit and if you bothered to read through my posts and not assume things I haven't said then you'd know that.

His ability to stall has everything to do with it. If he can work around any rules we place on him to try and stop this something is seriously wrong about how we go about this.

I'm saying that an MK specific LGL is required before we even attempt to talk about his stalling skills or whether or not he should be banned. I haven't mentioned AT ALL his other stalling skills or whether or not he'd be able to time people out with an LGL.

We've had LGL's, from the fact MK can still planking without fear of it and can work his magic to try stall out games.

You can ignore his other abilities to work around this.

I never claimed you didn't talk about this, I brought up a point, I never tried to shove words in your mouth.

then you arent doing dmgs dframe perfect planking wich makes you hittable lol

Your going to go offstage to hit MK, lol.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Aw dang it i missed the post by about 7 pages where someone threatened to beat someone up with MMA experience then have them arrested and sued. Man u dont read for a day and u miss everything. Because of course someone with MMA experienced could totally beat the piss out of someone then sue them and then they would lose because anybody with that much training isnt allowed to do that without warning people u have that much training.

PS anyone who talks about being able to fight that well in real life probably is lying because the people that can dont learn it so they can threaten people with it online lol.

...

You realize I was saying exactly that, I was making a point to somebody threatening to punch anybody who planked him in the face.


The point was:

1. IRL, you have no idea who can kick the crap out of you if you try (I was just using myself as an example because it happens to be a specialty of mine).

2. IRL, you'd get kicked out of the tournament.

3. IRL, you'd be eligible to get arrested.

4. IRL, you'd be eligible to get sued.



TL;DR: Threatening bodily harm to people who use strategies you don't like is stupid, cause if you carry it out you're probably in a worse situation then he is. Also, lrn2read.


Oh and lol@having to warn somebody when they attack me, when you attack somebody, you assume all the associated risks.

Does he do sweaty **** punching IRL?

I'm more of a striker actually, my spacing is amazing so I'm good at avoiding grappling situations until my opponent is ready for a submission of some kind (aka barely conscious).


Also, lol@grappling=sweaty **** punching.

 

[Justblaze647]

I'm more of a striker actually, my spacing is amazing so I'm good at avoiding grappling situations until my opponent is ready for a submission of some kind (aka barely conscious).

Off topic, I know. Just responding to a post.

Also, note adumbrodeus, that I'm not saying this in an attempt to discredit your fighting style and/or experience.

But this is bogus.

In my experience, it's near impossible to simply "avoid grappling situations" during any kind of fight, especially one that is consented upon as a mixed martial arts bout. Striking with your fists, feet, elbows, knees, or otherwise, is putting your own body at risk when tussling with someone of even the most basic knowledge and wherewithal of grappling.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Off topic, I know. Just responding to a post.

Also, note adumbrodeus, that I'm not saying this in an attempt to discredit your fighting style and/or experience.

But this is bogus.

In my experience, it's near impossible to simply "avoid grappling situations" during any kind of fight, especially one that is consented upon as a mixed martial arts bout. Striking with your fists, feet, elbows, knees, or otherwise, is putting your own body at risk when tussling with someone of even the most basic knowledge and wherewithal of grappling.

You're correct in that, if predicted, anything can be grabbed.


That's why I'm defensive, because you can't grapple without an opening, and if you start a grappling attempt in the wrong position, you're at a disadvantage (if you wanna start a grappling situation with you in my guard, I'm fine with that, I win more fights against newbies that way). In the same way, if you present an opening for a grappling situation where I'm at the advantage, I'll take it.


But generally, I prefer to use safe strikes whenever possible (such as low kicks) and when I do attack, I specialize in making sure that the limb that attacks is back in neutral as fast as possible. I'm also very good at moving off a strike. Beyond that, I'm very efficient at breaking grabs and causing separation. I've also got a very long reach.


Not saying I never get into grappling situations, but being safe and defense, and punishing your opponent for advancing on you does a lot for making it difficult for it to occur on anything but your terms.



So, it's more nuanced then that, but how many people here actually know enough about fighting to really understand the distinction?