Conviction
Human Nature
60/40 is an adv. no matter what game you play. How does it differ? How come we got off topic again?
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Official Metaknight Discussion
- Thread starter Hylian
- Start date
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Conviction
Human Nature
Tatical Flame Thread.
ElDominio
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Mar 18, 2009
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- 452
MU's are data. Sadly, as subjective as they might be, they are still evidence.
In fact, I could say that everything YOU say is subjective. Even your existence, and since your existence is subjective, I rule you out of my world.
Sadly, we already proved with OBJECTIVE evidence, which you now rule under "theorycrafting", so what else can we do? All our objective (as in, real frame data, things that are programmed into Brawl) is "theorycrafting", since you can't see it, and then all the evidence you CAN see is subjective, since you can SEE it.
So we can't do anything, since you can percieve our data YOUR way, and you can't SEE the hard evidence.
TL;DR: Die.
Only if you get 25 kills in a row.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Because we implicitly use a different metric?
Honestly there's no real standardization behind the numbers anyway, so there's very little to say that even Brawl 60-40s from two different sources are equivalent.
Conviction
Human Nature
Adum has earned the right to tell me to shut up and I will XD
Orion*
Smash Researcher
i go from topic to topic bro. this is NOT A STATIONARY THREAD
who said I rule anything under "theory crafting". stop making blanket anti ban statements you ***.
oh yeah and. you fail.
you can do something by.... proving mk is broken by going and winning with him. but you suck to much to bro
generally we mean that 60/40 is if 2 players of equal skill play, one will win 60 percent of the time, and the other will win 40 based on the chars they play.
the problem is that differs at high level play
Masmasher@
Smash Lord
Tekken 4 didnt just die because of jin. it was a terrible designed game in general.
also temp ban= not useful
and you dont ban characters to increase viablity
also temp ban= not useful
and you dont ban characters to increase viablity
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
This assumes HIGH LEVEL PLAY.
What are you stupid?
Oh its 6-4 with two low level but equal players.
Its 5-5 with high level but equal players.
Do you realize how foolish you sound?
Rarely I speak so directly but jesus, why would you say such a foolish thing?
Low levels of play are IGNORED when creating MU.
Though if everyone has been doing what you have implied, they NEED to get smacked into reality.
Generally, the matchup ratios tend to be interpreted in a different fashion.
A 6-4 does NOT necessarily imply a ratio of winning 60% of the time.
Why?
This is smash not Street fighter.
The method by which our MU's are evaluated is much different and so, it can mean different things.
Budget Player Cadet_
Smash Hero
Masmasher, what is your criteria for banning a character? You ignore (with no given reason) our arguments towards a temporary ban of metaknight, and you make claims that you can't back up in general. "You don't ban chars to increase viability"... Wouldn't the main reason anyone has ever been banned ever be that they make the entire rest of the cast invalid?
What would your criteria for banning a character in Super Smash Bros be?
Also, if you don't like Jin, try V-13 in BlazBlue. And she wasn't even seen as the best.
Also, guys, please stop quoting Orion. I think this thread gets better when I put him on ignore and now you all are quoting him and I still have to see his incredibly bad posts. ;_;
EDIT: I hope you realize how ******** you sound at this point when you say that a Temp Ban is pointless. Every argument about how a game without MK would be far more balanced, every argument about how many characters MK completely invalidates, every argument about how much less gay the game would be without MK has been shoved off by anti-ban as "theorycraft". A temp ban would give us the chance to actually test all these things! What you're saying is equivalent to this situation:
-Proban: I think that Red and Yellow make Orange based on theory of light reflections.
-Antiban: PROVE IT OR IT'S JUST A BAD THEORY.
-Proban: Okay, I need paint. But to go to the store and buy paint I need your agreement for some inane reason.
-Antiban: NO.
Orion*
Smash Researcher
why wouldnt i interpret a matchup based on the level of people that are playing? when i interpret mus for Myself i always think of perfect play, however half the people in this thread are scrubs and complain that this game isnt catered to them.
if we were only assuming top level of play, then there wouldnt be an mk ban debate.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
I don't think you understand the issue here.
The issue is that there is no statistical reasoning behind it, nobody says in MU discussions, "well, outpoking tends to cause an increase of 5% in terms of win ratio, but the opponent has good punishment options if he predicts the poke within a 5 frame window, so the net increase is 3%".
Even if they did, there's no justification for the numbers, those percentages were completely arbitrary, as any percentages would be without strong experimentation.
Furthermore, I don't think that most smashers realize that our MUs are a great deal more polarized then that, if we used flat percentages, we'd be dealing with the differences being reduced to "how many 9s are after the decimal point".
I believe the assertion is that MK is more dominant at the top of the metagame, not less.
Budget Player Cadet_
Smash Hero
Inb4ADHD/Ally ****storm. Does ANYONE doubt at this point that national results would be like 6+ MKs in top 8, 3 in top 3, without Ally, M2K, and ADHD, three people who quite obviously break the mold?
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Top of the metagame =/= best players.
Top of the metagame = technically best humanly possible.
Budget Player Cadet_
Smash Hero
Ah. Wait, you expect people to be better than those 3?
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Not quite, and saying that it's well within the realm of human possibility to have superior tech skill to all 3.
Better skill at the higher points of the game (ex. mindgames) is always possible of course, and years into the metagame there will be players (either their future selves or others) that will laugh at those 3's current abilities.
But I'm mainly talking about taking advantage of the character's abilities at the highest humanly possible technical level.
if this is true, then it would not be Metaknight anyway
a perfect player would be able to powershield every hit and Smash/Normal DI every hit perfectly. an Ice climbers would be in top tier due to perfected chain grabs and perfected desynches (being one of the few types of moves that wouldn't be able to be DI'd)
its the top of the metagame, not the top humanely possible. The increasing tech skill and metagame is why matchups change and the game evolves.
Can't you shut up and be less annoying?
ElDominio
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Mar 18, 2009
- Messages
- 452
Nope. I'm still waiting on you to tell me how DSmash out of tornado is punishable.
Conviction
Human Nature
Lol ElDominio
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
...
You're making the mistake of mixing up your terms, perfect player=/=best humanly possible.
There IS a reaction gap, and nobody is gonna be able to consistently powershield a frame 4 move.
People should be able to consistently powershield frame 18 moves however, people should be able to consistently SDI and shield SDI.
The fact is, Brawl players suck technically at the moment, and a lot of the stuff that is incredibly important to MUs is virtually unused. However, over time, this will change, just like it changed with melee.
And no, it's not ICs, they lose out a lot more due to technical perfection then they gain, due to having no approaches and no way to force an approach effectively. Well, at least again the characters that matter they lose more then they gain.
^^^^ Ice Climber has no good way to approach? Wut, watch Kekera or good US Ice climbers, Ice block and Blizzard desynches.
So what is your difference between humanely possible and virtually perfect?
Brawl players aren't that bad technically, its just that the game itself is slow and that many advanced techniques haven't been either found or fully exploited.
So what is your difference between humanely possible and virtually perfect?
Brawl players aren't that bad technically, its just that the game itself is slow and that many advanced techniques haven't been either found or fully exploited.
because Dsmash itself is punishable.
Try again.
I find this statement ironic.
MarKO X
Smash Champion
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Tornado cooldown has a minimum of 30 frames of cooldown where you literally can't do anything. People say that if you're at the right height that the lag "autocancels," but that right height still requires your landing to be 30 frames.
That said, if you're close enough and fast enough, you can punish a whiffed Nado with an attack. If you're projectile is good enough, you can punish with the projectile, and you probably won't even have till the nado is finished if your projectile is good enough.
As for the dsmash OoNado, it might work once or twice assuming the player can't get to you fast enough. (like, Sonic has a guaranteed grab on a whiffed nado if he and MK are on the same horizontal plain) However, if you decide that you're going to dsmash everytime, it's going to get read.
I could see dsmash OoNado working... but as a mixup, not as a surefire strat.
Conviction
Human Nature
Good. Now answer the first question he asked.
How do you punish Tornado?
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Blizzard's use is dying, that thing is too SDI'able.
The issue with Ice blocks is that they're too low, if you try to desynch an ice block as cover for your approach, anything off jump still works.
8 frames in is frame 0, that's humanly possible.
Perfect is frame 2 is frame 0.
Lol, most people still fail at understanding things like vertical spacing, consistent powershielding, setting up traps, and safely edguarding. Basic things, and this is two years+ into the game.
I hear people commenting on DMG's SDI'ing tricks and hear "that's impossible" all the time, when those things are actually just a matter of recognizing when it will happen and using basic SDI.
Hell, I see people like m2k only learning throw techs just recently.
There are exceptions, but in general the tech skill of the American metagame is extremely low, and unfortunately this paints a very different picture of the characters then should exist.
Why do I say that "humanly possible" is what's relevant? Because you don't NEED to be able to perform everything to improve your situation in a given MU, you take a look at what the threats are, and if you're having issues with a campy fox... learning to powershield consistently, which at best eliminates his ability to force approaches, but at the very least signifigantly decreases his damage output with the lasers (by at worst, I mean, you're letting some through).
ElDominio
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Mar 18, 2009
- Messages
- 452
See! This is why MK is broken.
I made that up, and see? It even has a chance of actually being useful! I wish that I could DSmash out of Homing attack, but Sonic gets 3 days of endlag on missed HA.
MK has infinitely many options, like the one I just made up.
^^ElDominio: that is a incredibly ill thought out post. You "randomly made up" something that is actually done, and (for MK) is actually easy to punish because of the 29-30 frame cooldown, plus however many frames it takes to get the D-smash out.
Def not a reason to call him broken... :/
@xIblis: easily. If you are grounded, you can pivot grab, use projectiles, f-tilt (in some cases). In air, you can use an aerial, and if caught, you can SDI out and punish from the top. That seems pretty easy to me.
@Adumbrodeus: your wording is a pick wonky to explain top metagame and top technical possibility.
Pretty much people, he's saying that at the top of the metagame, you can expect 8 frame reaction time, and make presumptions from there. Technically perfect would be a 1 frame reaction time, meaning that any character w/ a 1 frame move/frame 1 invincibility would be able to hit you out of anything.
Def not a reason to call him broken... :/
@xIblis: easily. If you are grounded, you can pivot grab, use projectiles, f-tilt (in some cases). In air, you can use an aerial, and if caught, you can SDI out and punish from the top. That seems pretty easy to me.
@Adumbrodeus: your wording is a pick wonky to explain top metagame and top technical possibility.
Pretty much people, he's saying that at the top of the metagame, you can expect 8 frame reaction time, and make presumptions from there. Technically perfect would be a 1 frame reaction time, meaning that any character w/ a 1 frame move/frame 1 invincibility would be able to hit you out of anything.
Conviction
Human Nature
Opps I meant punishing a Nado while in shield. I know Fox or Falco can OoS while they are hitting your shield BUT MK should be moving out the way. So ok the re-stated question.
How do you punish MK's Nado while you are in shield if he retreats with it.
How do you punish MK's Nado while you are in shield if he retreats with it.
Orion*
Smash Researcher
you are an IDIOT. WHY ARE YOU SHIELDING NADO. pick a move that beats it in the first place or if youre character doesnt have one / youre incapable pick a better character or quit
edit: and i do agree with adum on people in this game sucking technically.
So much MK ignorance in this thread...
What people are failing to realize that the answer to all of these questions are "it depends".
The questions you should be asking are...
Is it practical to punish within human reaction on Powershield? What about about not on powershield? How risky is trying to punish it in comparison to how easy it is to punish. What happens if you don't punish it?
What people are failing to realize that the answer to all of these questions are "it depends".
The questions you should be asking are...
Is it practical to punish within human reaction on Powershield? What about about not on powershield? How risky is trying to punish it in comparison to how easy it is to punish. What happens if you don't punish it?
Conviction
Human Nature
Orion*
Smash Researcher
risk shouldnt be factored if a punish can be done 100% of the time without having to make a read
you should be infracted
That's not realistic though, because even the best players miss punishments all the time.
Why? Because in reality, those are reads to an extent as well. Reaction speed (the ability to process and recognize a situation) comes into play here. The faster you can react the more likely it is that you will pull off a punishment in time, but all players must often make judgements on whether or not they feel they'll be able to punish something.
By the time you realize something just happened the window to punish it may have just closed. That's why MK is beatable by any character on paper but you don't see it happening. Punishing MK takes faster reaction than punishing other characters etc...
demonictoonlink
Smash Master
Are people really calling tornado unpunishable?
Yeah, it is rather humorous.
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