Official Metaknight Discussion

[fkacyan]

@Thio: Let's see what "subjective" data we've gathered:
-MK is literally unbeatable without ledge grab limits.
-An MK at any given competitive ranking level is between 3 and 27 times better than a player of another top char at the same level.
-Ally, M2K, and ADHD are so far ahead of the rest of the game that including them in results is something that would make statisticians cry.
-MK gets about twice the number of points in tournaments than the second-best character. About 4 times as much as the third-best.
-MK is LITERALLY UNBEATABLE without ledge grab limits.

The first and last are the same and I've addressed that that point is the sole objective fact that also serves to work against Metaknight's legality without any subjective interpretation. Past that...

I can look at each of those and say "And?" The conclusions you draw from the scale of MK's dominance are entirely subjective. I personally have absolutely no issue with MK doing as well as he does right now.

Presenting data in an extremely organized and attractive fashion and in really long posts doesn't make your data any more or less significant. OS and Crow! never really got any closer with graphs and crap than they did with actual numbers to a ban without any prior inquiry (i.e. a ban without a temp ban proving that the metagame actually gets better without him).

 

[Orion*]

Proof of me being an idiot.
Just as good as your argument

I still stand right in saying that a DSmash out of tornado is unpunishable.

why would you dsmash.... LOL

 

[Conviction]

Lol it's a lot easier for MK to hit you for % lead then camp then you have zero options, than a character that in the most gayest level might end up just chasing some one around trying to grab you then IF the character makes the grab.

It's a bigger if for ICs grabbing you if you are just running then MK hitting you.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

The first and last are the same and I've addressed that that point is the sole objective fact that also serves to work against Metaknight's legality without any subjective interpretation. Past that...

I can look at each of those and say "And?" The conclusions you draw from the scale of MK's dominance are entirely subjective. I personally have absolutely no issue with MK doing as well as he does right now.

Presenting data in an extremely organized and attractive fashion and in really long posts doesn't make your data any more or less significant. OS and Crow! never really got any closer with graphs and crap than they did with actual numbers to a ban without any prior inquiry (i.e. a ban without a temp ban proving that the metagame actually gets better without him).

So you're saying that MK having 3-27x as many points as the next main at the same level for their char, MK having as a character about 2x as many points as the next char, MK taking 5 of the top spots at every major tournament... it's all a coincidence because MK mains are magically better than non-MK mains?

 

[ElDominio]

LOL please just stfu you're trash.

Great argument man! Keep it up!!!

why would you dsmash.... LOL

it seems like the most logical thing to do... what would you do???

That's the thing, why has no one said otherwise? Because I know MK can something.

 

[TP]

1) Anyone who says Tornado is unsafe on shield needs to learn how to play the game. Holy ****.
2) PottyJokes should probably just leave this thread. Attacking individual players is far worse than not posting at all. Ad hominens ftl. Yes, I realize the irony, don't mention it.
3) I'm pro ban (although I am anti ban concerning MLG) and I go to tournaments and use MK. Same is true for plenty of people. Quit making huge blanket statements, everyone. They are usually wrong.

 

[Conviction]

LOL please just stfu you're trash.

Lol YOU WIN! I RESIGN FROM THIS THREAD. Name calling is the best way to get your point arcoss son.

Quote me on this please, mods if I post in here ever again infraction me.

 

[fkacyan]

So you're saying that MK having 3-27x as many points as the next main at the same level for their char, MK having as a character about 2x as many points as the next char, MK taking 5 of the top spots at every major tournament... it's all a coincidence because MK mains are magically better than non-MK mains?

No? When did I say that?

I just said that whether or not that is an acceptable level of dominance varies from person to person. There is no set point at which we say "MK IS TOO GOOD BAN" from a dominance PoV, or there never would have been a debate to begin with.

This is ignoring the fact that the null hypothesis that it is a coincidence is barely not rejected from a statistical PoV.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

Can I ask a question? To all anti-ban. Just one question, and think about it.

Do you think MK dominating the scene is possible? Exclude the outliers that have stopped MK from winning previous nationals (barely) cause outliers mean nothing to the metagame. Why? Because no one else can do what they do.

Thio you said it yourself, you cannot convince anyone (smart) here that your opinion is right. You cannot do anything about me. I'm an only a minor annoyance in here, which doesn't make any sense because this is only my third or so post in here.
Keep in mind that I am completely fine doing a temp ban, but I cannot respect antiban when the majority does not take such discussions seriously. Heh, it's the internet what did I expect, competitive debate class? Lulz

 

[PottyJokes]

razer goes toe to toe with dojo and beat redhalberd(one of floridas top mks) . fatal beat shadow that one tourney earlier, hell even fiction (wario) knocked m2k into losers before.

dont act like beating top MKs is only possible by 2 other players in the world.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

razer goes toe to toe with dojo and beat redhalberd(one of floridas top mks) . fatal beat shadow that one tourney earlier, hell even fiction (wario) knocked m2k into losers before.

dont act like beating top MKs is only possible by 2 other players in the world.

Number of players who have done this to one of the top 15 MKs more than once: 6. Flayl collected the data. I'd link to it, buuuut... Well, this thread is massive, lol. Wanna search?

EDIT: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9588147&postcount=5637
Found it.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

razer goes toe to toe with dojo and beat redhalberd(one of floridas top mks) . fatal beat shadow that one tourney earlier, hell even fiction (wario) knocked m2k into losers before.

dont act like beating top MKs is only possible by 2 other players in the world.

4 of the extra people can be considered potential outliers cause no one else could even dream of having such accomplishments even after the game two year lifespan.

Remember DEHF vs m2k? Falco is arguably the best character against MK. But this is my opinion so you don't have to care. *stares at ...*

 

[Asdioh]

You're an absolute moron. I don't usually just call specific people out like this, but you're deserving of it.

Pro ban has shown us numbers. The thing is, these numbers by themselves mean absolutely nothing. Each individual determines whether or not MK's dominance as indicated by the numbers presented by pro-ban is acceptable. There is no 'fact' here. As admitted by pro-ban several times, it is impossible to objectively determine a point at which the level of dominance is too much.

The only 'fact' that serves doubly as a point against MK without any subjectivity is the planking data.

I hope this post serves to make you more intelligent, because, honestly, we could use fewer people like you posting under the impression that they have a firm grasp of what is going on when they are almost completely clueless as a result of their own bias.

The bolded part is probably what he's talking about. No need to insult him so much.


The only people in here that really seem deserving of insults are Orion and Pottywhatever, for the most blatant and unoriginal trolling I have ever seen.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

4 of the extra people can be considered potential outliers cause no one else could even dream of having such accomplishments even after the game two year lifespan.

THIS. I mean, just to make clear how ridiculous ignoring this factor is, one of them wins regional tournaments in decent regions with Captain Falcon.

Remember DEHF vs m2k? Falco is arguably the best character against MK...

When MK has a ledge grab limit. He doesn't even have to use the broken planking which is virtually unstoppable; he just needs to stay below the stage; an extremely advantaged position in this matchup vs. Falco.

 

[OverLade]

razer is 3-27x better than you.

 

[UltiMario]

A question to pro-ban.

If you want MK banned that badly, why are you targeting something that can be changed? You can always use LGLs and Scrooging limits/bans to rid MK of his bannability. Why don't you go back to before this whole silly ledge thing? There is only one uncontrollable, unmodifiable player-made way to ban a character. Dominace. I'm anti-ban, but really, I hate to see people waste tons of time on a useless subject. Pro-ban should just allow MK to be limited by LGLs and Scrooging bans/limits, and just wait for that dominace meter to increase, and the anti-bans waiting the same for a decrease. If you want to ban MK so badly, why are you choosing a factor that CAN be controlled, rather one that can't. "Because its scrubby/stupid" doesn't count anymore. Nobody cares about Sirlin's opinion or your opinion.

Now, you're probably asking, why would an Anti-ban be helping the pro-ban by suggesting this.
If you're asking that, GTFO. You're a true pro or anti-ban if you know dominance is the only 100% legit, unarguable, uncircumventable way to prove or disprove a ban, well, once a max dominance percentage is set out, anyways.



like 400 pages ago I said this, and now I still say this. A discussion and a finalization of "How much dominance is too much" must be started ASAP.

 

[PottyJokes]

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

The bolded part is probably what he's talking about. No need to insult him so much.


The only people in here that really seem deserving of insults are Orion and Pottywhatever, for the most blatant and unoriginal trolling I have ever seen.

Exactly. Anti-ban (majority) is simply going "lolgetbetter" w/ complains toward MK. They don't care for this discussion so why should we listen to them.

@Ulti (somewhat legit antibanner): tbh I'm pro-ban but if MK doesn't get banned I don't care as long as the metagame doesn't get out of hand. I believe MK has the potential to do this, regardless of outliers.

 

[ShadowLink84]

@Ultimario: Ask Akuma's NOT to use their aerial fireball in SF2. Its the same thing, you're able to control it and monitor it too.

Extreme exaggeration I know, but the point is that then, you get to the point where you're CONSTANTLY having to limit the character.
It does raise eyebrows when each rule made, targets a SINGLE character.
Just tossing cogs.

 

[UltiMario]

I'm going to simply going to ask this.

Whos better.
Plank-limited Meta Knight
Or Fireball-less Akuma?

 

[GeneralWoodman]

Akuma is not in brawl. If he was we would be banning both of them

EDIT:
@adumbrodeus- having akuma in brawl would mean having a character with peaches float ability, except infinite. imagine floating offstage and firing giant meteors the whole match. not to mention having like an aerial shield that deals damage and never runs out xd

 

[adumbrodeus]

Apparently, the difference between getting CG'd infinitely with nothing that you can do within the game to stop it (outside of mashing and praying) and getting planked though you can do something about it is difficult to grasp.

inb4 "but MK's planking is unstoppable, thus the LGL is legit." There are 38 other characters in the game that can plank... remember? Or did we forget that?

A deathgrab is a combo that ends in stock loss, you get caught in the combo... sucks to be you. We acknowledge that it can be stalling, hence the 300% limit.


How is comparing effective infinite invincibility to anything less then that even viable?

Budget said framewise MKs planking is "invincible". So going by that you can PS all of Fox's lasers and outcamp him framewise.

Working on it.

I'm totally serious, I remember a rather large rant by Pierce on how brawlers suck technically and I'm making an effort to make that less true.


Granted, it's more intended for falco, but still.

So you're saying that MK having 3-27x as many points as the next main at the same level for their char, MK having as a character about 2x as many points as the next char, MK taking 5 of the top spots at every major tournament... it's all a coincidence because MK mains are magically better than non-MK mains?

There's a correlation, but no causation.

Experimentation is a beautiful thing.

Akuma is not in brawl. If he was we would be banning both of them

Thank you mr obvious, but there was a relevant discussion going on, especially since his super planking IS akuma-level.


And no, akuma would suck in Brawl.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

"no one planks so it isn't broken" -- anti-ban

 

[OverLade]

 

[ElDominio]

Reply fail. LoL

 

[GeneralWoodman]

banning metaknight would unlock 11 new characters! :D

 

[fkacyan]

"no one planks so it isn't broken" -- anti-ban

Please do not take the words of the few and misinformed to be the thoughts of the rest.

EDIT:

banning metaknight would unlock 11 new characters! :D

Maybe three or four characters at max would become viable where they weren't before. Not many non-viable characters have MK as their sole awful matchup.

 

[theunabletable]

Unable table, can you please explain to me how planking with G&W, Pit, Marth, or anyone that is not MK unbeatable?

Sorry I misread the post that you were replying to.

I hate LGLs that aren't MK specific.

Please stop ignoring the fact that MK isn't the only character that can plank and justify the use of LGLs on the entire cast.

I can't stand a ledge grab limit that applies to Pit and G&W, it should be MK specific.

and yet you're all for LGLs, which limit a tactic that is beatable... I don't understand.

I'm all for LGLs that ONLY effect MK. Sorry that I misread the post you were replying to earlier, that was my mistake.

But for future reference, I only support LGLs that are MK specific.

The Unable Table... Lmfao. Amazing name.

Good points.

Oh hey Sky.

Budget said framewise MKs planking is "invincible". So going by that you can PS all of Fox's lasers and outcamp him framewise.

IIRC there's quite a lot of room for error with MKs planking.

When MK has a ledge grab limit.

And what's wrong with that? We have more subjective, arbitrary, and rather ridiculous rules in our current ruleset (our current stalling rule limits characters who don't need limitation).

MKs unbeatable planking as you have mentioned many times makes the game UNPLAYABLE. It makes the game as unplayable as ICs infinitely CGing you to 999% and continuing until the time runs out.

If we see that it makes the game as unplayable as something that is ALREADY banned for stalling, then don't we need SOME WAY to enforce such a rule (MK specific ledge grab limit (and don't give me that "if it's MK specific just ban MK" ****. The current stalling rule purposefully limits D3 and ICs. Ban D3, ICs, and MK for stalling potential (as without our current stalling rule (which is more subjective, arbitrary, and purposefully limits characters who don't need limitations) if ICs get one grab first stock they can potentially automatically win the match), or add a ****ing ledge grab limit))?

The only arguments for not having an LGL are extreme double standards.

banning metaknight would unlock 11 new characters! :D

11 lol? I'm sorry but that's an insane exageration.

"no one planks so it isn't broken" -- anti-ban

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accident_(fallacy)

Ask Akuma's NOT to use their aerial fireball in SF2. Its the same thing, you're able to control it and monitor it too.

We're already doing the same to ICs and D3 (who don't need limitations), just so you know.

3) I'm pro ban (although I am anti ban concerning MLG) and I go to tournaments and use MK. Same is true for plenty of people. Quit making huge blanket statements, everyone. They are usually wrong.

This (even though I'm anti-ban, I still mostly agree with this statement that morons should stop making blanket statements about all of anti-ban/all of pro-ban.

 

[Chuee]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60OFyvokO9g
For those who say Tornado is safe on shield.
0:20
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kH3X9CBG3dw
1:13
For retreating nado. A lot of characters with projectiles can punish retreating nado.
Plus theres a ****load of attacks that beat nado.

 

[GeneralWoodman]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60OFyvokO9g
For those who say Tornado is safe on shield.
0:20
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kH3X9CBG3dw
1:13
For retreating nado. A lot of characters with projectiles can punish retreating nado.
Plus theres a ****load of attacks that beat nado.

yes, but look what 0:20 did to his shield. you never want a small shield against a fast character, especially mk

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

Please do not take the words of the few and misinformed to be the thoughts of the rest.

EDIT:


Maybe three or four characters at max would become viable where they weren't before. Not many non-viable characters have MK as their sole awful matchup.

I hope you realise Woodman was exaggerating the benefit. MK may not be the worst matchup for a ton of characters but the crowded MK population is the more so issue of some characters failing to shine (again, excluding outliers).

Btw I'm not mad, but anti-ban you failed to answer my question two pages back. Take your time if you need to, and Good Day.

 

[Masmasher@]

I always assumed if it can be done at the highest level of play then we would assume it to be so.

 

[Chuee]

yes, but look what 0:20 did to his shield. you never want a small shield against a fast character, especially mk

I would if I get 20+ damage for it.

 

[TP]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60OFyvokO9g
For those who say Tornado is safe on shield.
0:20
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kH3X9CBG3dw
1:13
For retreating nado. A lot of characters with projectiles can punish retreating nado.
Plus theres a ****load of attacks that beat nado.

Against Ally, M2K screwed up. He thought he was gonna shield stab him, but accidentally went too high, giving Ally a chance to spot dodge. It was his fault, not the move.

Against ADHD... really? Holding a banana gives Diddy an option in that situation, yes. I can think of maybe 3 other characters that can pull that off, and Diddy only did it because he had a banana at the time.

Terrible examples.

 

[Chuee]

Thats only the first 2 vids I bothered to find. Theres plenty more of those.

 

[TP]

You just don't get it. I've landed Warlock Punches before. Does that make is a move that can ever hit the opponent? There can be exceptions without changing the overall truth of the statement. Tornado, if done correctly, is unpunishable on shield against nearly the entire cast. However, there will still be occasions in which it is punished. How are you not getting this?

 

[ADHD]

banning metaknight would unlock 11 new characters! :D

That was awesome!

 

[Chuee]

Nearly every character with a decent ranged projectile/move can punish retreating nado. Nearly every character with a decent ranged, quick move can punish nado directly on shield. Thats more than a few.

Except you don't land warlock punch consistently. The difference is that people can consistently punish nado on shield. Bad example.

 

[GeneralWoodman]

Nearly every character with a decent ranged projectile/move can punish retreating nado. Nearly every character with a decent ranged, quick move can punish nado directly on shield. Thats more than a few.

Except you don't land warlock punch consistently. The difference is that people can consistently punish nado on shield. Bad example.

why retreat with nado against a projectile happy character, it deals leik 4 damage. the point is to hit an airborne opponent to knock them away before they can use said projectile. And if you get hit with one lazer while retreating its not exactly a horrible situation. Retreating from power fulling projectile users would be stupid in general

 

[TP]

GeneralWoodman, while that makes sense, it's not really what we are discussing here. Everybody is saying that Tornado is a great shield pressure/stabbing move that can't be punished if done correctly, except Chuee who lives in a magical world where characters can cover a third of FD and get an attack off in about 30 frames.