Official Metaknight Discussion

[Asdioh]

Looks like Thio wins the debate because he asked us to define a "correct" opinion, which is impossible.

........

Thio, how much dominance is not too much? herp derp

Can you define "not overdominant" objectively?

 

[Sky`]

The Unable Table... Lmfao. Amazing name.

Good points.

 

[fkacyan]

Looks like Thio wins the debate because he asked us to define a "correct" opinion, which is impossible.

........

Thio, how much dominance is not too much? herp derp

Can you define "not overdominant" objectively?

I don't need to. I'm not the one trying to change anything. MK is innocent until proven guilty, as they say.

BTW, all I was doing was pointing out the flaw in the "BAN NAO" argument. Temp ban ftw.

 

[Orion*]

That is because they are bad and havent played vs a single good MK.
And actually read stuff before you go around asking people to recycle the entire argument for the 3000th time.

"I havent seen the argument, therefore it is probably not legitimate"

ive gone to m2ks house and got ***** over and over for 10 hours last year so LOL at that statement

Every character can now outcamp Fox, using Budget logic you can PS each laser and force him to approach.

why the hell would you even bother. learn ics/pika/shiek and he has no chance, kthnxbai

I agree that the ledge grab limit actually does work, more or less, to stop MK from stalling the match out with planking. It's still no more legit than any other rule to keep MK in the game.
.

what about ic cgs being limited? it stops the same thing... you can stall to 300 % (a little while) but otherwise you could just keep cging to infinity and time someone out.

Oh yeah, another argument to refute since you guys brought it up.

Comparing "no infinites past 300%" to "no ledgegrabs past X for Metaknight"

The answer to this one is simple, and obvious. Sure, 300% is an arbitrary number, but it seems mostly reasonable since pretty much any move can KO at that range, and more importantly, BECAUSE YOU CAN SEE THE PERCENT IN GAME.

"Oh look, the in-game damage meter is showing my opponent at 300%, I should finish them off now hehe"

vs.

"Oh look, the in-game ledgegrab counter is showing my ledgegrabs at- wait, there is no ledgegrab counter, how many ledgegrabs do I have? Do people really expect me to count them during my match? fdskjfasdjflwe!!"

A. not going to happen unless youre planking
B. if youre planking and you over you should lose
C. if youre planking you should learn to at least count for a gay *** tactic.

what a useless post

All right, since you're accusing me of playing super theory bros, you powershield all of fox's lazers that you reasonably could (on ground, not in lag, etc.) in a tournament match against a competent fox and then I'll start thinking that you have any kind of point.

i could say the same thing. GO WIN WITH MK YOU FAILURE IF HES SO BROKEN.

mks not even winning nub, look @ national results

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

why the hell would you even bother. learn ics/pika/shiek and he has no chance, kthnxbai

Well because he's saying "lol you can powershield everything". Better yet, go into a matchup against a good Zelda, and powershield all of Fsmash/Usmash. Each hit. Go on, I dare you. Or all the hits of MK's tornado. The concept is idiotic. Comparing planking (which is easy enough to do; as a melee player who has to waveshine with multiple inputs over a 6-frame window) with its incredibly lenient timing and simple execution to Powershielding breaking the game is hilariously bad. It's more like "I can powershield everything. I can also enter around 300 SDI inputs per frame and shiedgrab DDD after blocking his Fsmash as Ice Climbers." Go ahead, try it. You won't get far.

what about ic cgs being limited? it stops the same thing... you can stall to 300 % (a little while) but otherwise you could just keep cging to infinity and time someone out.

Because it's character-specific. It would be similar (okay, the same) if everyone had the CGs, but only ICs and DDD could infinite with them-then, of course, it would be on the same standing as planking.

i could say the same thing. GO WIN WITH MK YOU FAILURE IF HES SO BROKEN.

mks not even winning nub, look @ national results

I keep on telling people, "MAIN MK!" I main MK in vBrawl; I just have never had the opportunity to go to a brawl tournament due to the lousy geographical situation.

Look at Crow!'s chart and tell me why we can't take the 3-4 results that absolutely shatter the trend are good criteria for judging the criteria. If you have a group of 100 runners, some of them are wearing a certain kind of shoe, and this group of them is doing way better than all the others at any given "skill level", is it the person or the shoe? How about if a group of Kenyans show up, one of them wearing these shoes and two others that aren't, and start winning EVERY race by about a mile and a half (yes, even the 100 meter); except the kenyan wearing the shoes is slightly worse than the other two. Are these other two something that the entire rest of the group should look up to as an example for things you could do reasonably, and should they be included in the statistical gathering of tournament results between everyone (remember, they win everything, leaving their opponents in the dust), and therefore be judges of what runners are capable of, or should they be excused?

Look at the chart again. You'll see that the first place main for each given char is INCREDIBLY far above everything else.

 

[Asdioh]

what a useless post

My thoughts exactly.

 

[MarKO X]

Apparently, the difference between getting CG'd infinitely with nothing that you can do within the game to stop it (outside of mashing and praying) and getting planked though you can do something about it is difficult to grasp.

inb4 "but MK's planking is unstoppable, thus the LGL is legit." There are 38 other characters in the game that can plank... remember? Or did we forget that?

 

[ElDominio]

The thing is, pro-ban has made a series of points... Anti-ban has apparently forgotten them, and when we say "SEARCH THE FRIGGIN THREAD", they say "No. We're to lazy, link us or die."

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

The thing is, pro-ban has made a series of points... Anti-ban has apparently forgotten them, and when we say "SEARCH THE FRIGGIN THREAD", they say "No. We're to lazy, link us or die." Then when we do link them, they either give it a big fat TL;DR, or they shove it aside for obviously wrong reasons.

Fix'd

10fixes

 

[fkacyan]

The thing is, pro-ban has made a series of points... Anti-ban has apparently forgotten them, and when we say "SEARCH THE FRIGGIN THREAD", they say "No. We're to lazy, link us or die."

Nearly every single one of pro-ban's points is subjective. In fact, anything not related to frame-perfect planking is subjective.

@LGLs: If planking with other characters isn't safe, they won't do it and thus the LGL will almost certainly not be an issue. I also fail to see the issue with just applying this to MK.

 

[Orion*]

Apparently, the difference between getting CG'd infinitely with nothing that you can do within the game to stop it (outside of mashing and praying) and getting planked though you can do something about it is difficult to grasp.

inb4 "but MK's planking is unstoppable, thus the LGL is legit." There are 38 other characters in the game that can plank... remember? Or did we forget that?

This man is a GENUIS.

10GENUIS'S

 

[Chuee]

Budget said framewise MKs planking is "invincible". So going by that you can PS all of Fox's lasers and outcamp him framewise.

 

[solecalibur]

Apparently, the difference between getting CG'd infinitely with nothing that you can do within the game to stop it (outside of mashing and praying) and getting planked though you can do something about it is difficult to grasp.

inb4 "but MK's planking is unstoppable, thus the LGL is legit." There are 38 other characters in the game that can plank... remember? Or did we forget that?

There is a 6 frame window to pull off Mk's planking (You wont get hit) and the 38 other characters that can plank is beatable, Pro-ban's argument was not solely on MK's planking it has just come up in discussions from DMG's recent posts on planking

Budget said framewise MKs planking is "invincible". So going by that you can PS all of Fox's lasers and outcamp him framewise.

Completely irrelevant association

 

[Karcist]

mks not even winning nub, look @ national results

Yeah you're right, twice as many tournament wins than Snake isn't winning. But I guess that doesn't matter, because that's when anti-ban always brings in the same anecdotes.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

Budget said framewise MKs planking is "invincible". So going by that you can PS all of Fox's lasers and outcamp him framewise.

Don't be dumb, again.

And Thio, you say you don't need to define anything yet people like me don't care about the stuff you say 'cause you have yet to get your (good) criteria for a ban.

Or is that impossible, like the stuff you ask others to do?

 

[Orion*]

Yeah you're right, twice as many tournament wins than Snake isn't winning. But I guess that doesn't matter, because that's when anti-ban always brings in the same anecdotes.

i am right. its not my fault people that all of the people at this ***** *** small tournaments suck bro. step up your national game

 

[Chuee]

Im not being dumb, I was using that to show how stupid Budget's posts were.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

Im not being dumb, I was using that to show how stupid Budget's posts were.

Yet the comparisons you made were different.

 

[PottyJokes]

the opponent hits metaknight once then perfect shields all of metaknight's attacks until the timer runs out. ban shielding

 

[Chuee]

^ That, except replace attacks with lasers.

 

[fkacyan]

Don't be dumb, again.

And Thio, you say you don't need to define anything yet people like me don't care about the stuff you say 'cause you have yet to get your (good) criteria for a ban.

Or is that impossible, like the stuff you ask others to do?

What is this even saying?

And if it does actually make sense, why should I care about your opinion?

I only post in this thread to make sure Budget stops putting words in my (And the rest of anti-ban's) mouths. I couldn't care less what your personal opinion is. I know I'm not going to convince the majority of people here that my opinion is the correct one.

 

[Orion*]

Im not being dumb, I was using that to show how stupid Budget's posts were.

youre amazing also.

EDIT: FOX SUCKS STOP USING HIM AS AN EXAMPLE. HE IS BADD

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

the opponent hits fox once then perfect shields all of fox's attacks until the timer runs out. ban shielding

You guys realize how stupid this is, right? You're saying you can powershield virtually everything on reaction. And, for some reason, magically remain immune to all grabs. Wow. Just wow. Explain how this is making me look stupid. Is it opposite day?

 

[PottyJokes]

we're talking about theory craft bros. aren't we?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

we're talking about theory craft bros. aren't we?

All right. While we're at it, ban Ice Climbers. They can theoretically in-shield SDI everything to the extent that they get a shieldgrab off of anything that doesn't end with you well above their reach.

The difference between my argument that planking is unbeatable even though nobody does it and "powershielding everything is unbeatable" is twofold:
-Powershielding leaves room for mindgames; if I dash up to the opponent and they expect a dash attack and block, I grab. In planking, you keep grabbing the ledge. Exactly what to do is always a given constant. No mindgames needed or allowed.
-Powershielding every hit of multihit attacks is ****ing RIDICULOUS in some cases (tornado, MK fair, etc.), like, beyond realistic human ability (like the above comment). Planking is ****ing EASY.

If you want to theorycraft bull**** that is far beyond human capability, then go right ahead. It's not making you sound smart. You guys are taking an argument of mine, that people just aren't doing it even though it's possible and proven to be broken, and countering it with obviously broken things that aren't quite as broken and aren't realistically possible. If you're going to claim that you can powershield EVERY HIT in a match, be my guest. I'm going to assume you can also in-shield SDI DDD's fsmash on hit to shieldgrab it as ICs.

 

[ElDominio]

All right. While we're at it, ban Ice Climbers. They can theoretically in-shield SDI everything to the extent that they get a shieldgrab off of anything that doesn't end with you well above their reach.

The difference between my argument that planking is unbeatable even though nobody does it and "powershielding everything is unbeatable" is twofold:
-Powershielding leaves room for mindgames; if I dash up to the opponent and they expect a dash attack and block, I grab. In planking, you keep grabbing the ledge. Exactly what to do is always a given constant. No mindgames needed or allowed.
-Powershielding every hit of multihit attacks is ****ing RIDICULOUS in some cases (tornado, MK fair, etc.), like, beyond realistic human ability (like the above comment). Planking is ****ing EASY.

If you want to theorycraft bull**** that is far beyond human capability, then go right ahead. It's not making you sound smart.

I've been hitting F5 to see if someone thought like I did.

Planking is retardedly easy. PS-ing and IC-grabbing, by contrast, is not. I learned how to plank properly in about 2 games... I stil want to learn at least one of the IC chaingrabs.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I've been hitting F5 to see if someone thought like I did.

Planking is retardedly easy. PS-ing and IC-grabbing, by contrast, is not. I learned how to plank properly in about 2 games... I stil want to learn at least one of the IC chaingrabs.

The ICs chaingrabs aren't exactly technically easy either; I can't pull it off. Doesn't mean it can't happen. I mean, FFS, look at BBrawl, Brawl+, Brawl-, etc. We've done everything in our power to possibly remove the CG and they can STILL do it. It just has absurdly difficult timing. Like, frame-perfect. And people do it! So why can we say that Planking for 8 minutes is not realistic? Adumbrodeus, Overswarm help me out here...

 

[Karcist]

i am right. its not my fault people that all of the people at this ***** *** small tournaments suck bro. step up your national game

This post reeks of narcissism.. Again though, your argument only takes a couple players into account, and leaves thousands of other players out. That hardly makes for a convincing argument.

 

[MarKO X]

hmm... I wonder if I'll look cool by showing how stupid anti-ban arguments are...

 

[ElDominio]

The ICs chaingrabs aren't exactly technically easy either; I can't pull it off. Doesn't mean it can't happen. I mean, FFS, look at BBrawl, Brawl+, Brawl-, etc. We've done everything in our power to possibly remove the CG and they can STILL do it. It just has absurdly difficult timing. Like, frame-perfect. And people do it! So why can we say that Planking for 8 minutes is not realistic? Adumbrodeus, Overswarm help me out here...

Exactly, but people fail to see the fault in their argument. "Ah, ban IC they haz infinite CG"
They don't understand "GREAT! but it's not easy to do AT ALL!!!" If someone dedicates the time to learn them properly, then they should be rewarded with being able to use it.

Planking is just as useful as these chaingrabs, but it is stupid easy to learn to boot, so instead of someone picking up IC and learning a cool but hard to do CG with them, they just pick up MK and plank FTW.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

hmm... I wonder if I'll look cool by showing how stupid anti-ban arguments are...

Do it! There are probably a few thousand posts in this thread you could start with. :V

 

[Chuee]

If planking is easy then how come nobody consistently planks?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

If planking is easy then how come nobody consistently planks?

We've been over this.

1. It's banned in tournaments.
2. Social Stigma; people HATE plankers.
3. They do.

EDIT: gonna have to retract that last point... basing it off a video I can't find. Anyone have a link to Ally vs. M2K at Pound 4?

EDIT2: Can anyone help me out on this one? Adum? OS? I remember both of you being very willing and able to play stupidly gay...

 

[Orion*]

hmm... I wonder if I'll look cool by showing how stupid anti-ban arguments are...

ill save you the large amount of work your small brain has to do to think about this and tel yo something....

you wont.

This post reeks of narcissism.. Again though, your argument only takes a couple players into account, and leaves thousands of other players out. That hardly makes for a convincing argument.

it takes the TOP players into account. you know. people who actually care and put time into the game.

Exactly, but people fail to see the fault in their argument. "Ah, ban IC they haz infinite CG"
They don't understand "GREAT! but it's not easy to do AT ALL!!!" If someone dedicates the time to learn them properly, then they should be rewarded with being able to use it.

Planking is just as useful as these chaingrabs, but it is stupid easy to learn to boot, so instead of someone picking up IC and learning a cool but hard to do CG with them, they just pick up MK and plank FTW.

coming from someone who picked up ics for fun. theyre really not very hard to do. once im warmed up i rarely if even miss one. irregardless, its humanly possible idc why you think that it matters that techskilllessness scrubs cant do it. you dont matter

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

it takes the TOP players into account. you know. people who actually care and put time into the game.

As in, the top 20-30 players? Seriously, stop leaning on this. If you'd be willing to cater to the top players at the cost of the entire metagame, you are willing to let brawl DIE.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

What is this even saying?

And if it does actually make sense, why should I care about your opinion?

I only post in this thread to make sure Budget stops putting words in my (And the rest of anti-ban's) mouths. I couldn't care less what your personal opinion is. I know I'm not going to convince the majority of people here that my opinion is the correct one.

Caring? Opinions?

Wait a minute, this changes everthing. I'm looking at facts in here from now on, and the only facts in here that matter are from pro-ban. Good day.

 

[PottyJokes]

we should be catering to players like budget who've never been to a tourney before because he matters

 

[ElDominio]

coming from someone who picked up ics for fun. theyre really not very hard to do. once im warmed up i rarely if even miss one. irregardless, its humanly possible idc why you think that it matters that techskilllessness scrubs cant do it. you dont matter

Great.

You said it yourself. Warmed up. You actually need to warm up, and then you might miss one. ONE MISS AND YOUR CG is screwed.

In the other hand, with planking what the worse that could happen? You miss the edge. Fine, do either a Dair or a Nair or any aerial since they come out in like the time it takes to blink. Or better yet, DownB. Then you magically appear on the ledge.

we should be catering to players like budget who've never been to a tourney before because he matters

Fortunately, he does. He's given more to the community than you or me have. He has much larger post count (lol, but it still does mean SOMETHING), and what about Brawl-??? I think he knows more of the way Brawl works than we both do

 

[Orion*]

As in, the top 20-30 players? Seriously, stop leaning on this. If you'd be willing to cater to the top players at the cost of the entire metagame, you are willing to let brawl DIE.

if the community sucks enough to step it up and learn to play then the game prolly will die in time without mk anyway.

 

[Chuee]

We've been over this.

1. It's banned in tournaments.

Even in ones without LGL's nobody planks.
2. Social Stigma; people HATE plankers.
3. They do.
No they don't. The only person I can think of that actually planks sometimes is M2K and he rarely planks.

EDIT: gonna have to retract that last point... basing it off a video I can't find. Anyone have a link to Ally vs. M2K at Pound 4?

EDIT2: Can anyone help me out on this one? Adum? OS? I remember both of you being very willing and able to play stupidly gay...

Blueeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee