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Everyone start maining MK. RIGHT. NOW.
You're kidding, right? MK in Melee physics would be worse than fox. Wow, this is... wow. Let's see what fox has... same crazy combo ability (against a very floaty character), usmash that kills around 60 or 70? What does MK have... Incredible movement through the addition of wavedashing, same tornado that fox would still have trouble getting around (seriously, what gets through it?), Dolphin Slash on steroids, really good run speed, walls of priority and spacing, and uair, which absolutely would wreck a fastfaller like him. MK is a beast; make no mistake. He also doesn't have some of the grave weaknesses of Marth. Like, say, a recovery that isn't completely over its **** and that makes edgeguarding him suicide, and going offstage against him absolutely stupid. Nor does marth have transcendent priority on half his moveset. MK would take fox apart again and again. So safe...I didn't post anything on the discussion, i didn't start posting until ~pg 70. you'd probably have to actually read a few of the posts
as for IDC being hard, that doesn't really matter. A common thing that comes up in melee is that no matter how difficult something is, someone will practice and do it consistently.
As for fox and MK being in the same game: i don't think fox would work at all in brawl physics. If he retained his melee physics, then yes he would be better than MK. and if MK went into melee and got a hitstun buff, fox would still be better. MK < Melee Marth
As for fox's recovery, its actually better above the stage. If you firefox 45 degrees above the edge, you have 3 options of recovery, but really 2 is all you need. In order to cover any of fox's options in that situation you have to full commit to it which is obvious to the fox and he can change his angle to avoid it. He can do the same thing at 30degrees above the stage and 60 degrees above the stage. At the same time he has disjointed fire protecting him starting at frame 20, which prevents most characters from hitting him unless they full commit off stage in which case its obvious to the fox and he can take evasive maneuvers like shine stall. If you grab the edge, his firefox has exactly 4 frames of lag (the same as landing on the ground without doing any move) so its basically unpunishable at the end.
Compare that to marth or sheik's recovery, all you have to do is grab the edge to force them to upb onto the stage then hit them off and repeat until they don't come back.
...Are you ****ing kidding me? I can stop Pit's supposed unstoppable/super formidable planking (according to you) with PEACH for crying out loud. Of course planking is mainly centered around MK because of how well he can abuse it leagues beyond any other character's capability to do so. Just...how naive can you be? *facepalm*
This is why we're not moving forward.
Yes, MK's tools out class everyone elses, but they can still be overcome...with a great deal of difficulty (so much that only a few people have been able to top the MKs). I agree that they do almost shut down the point of competition since there is absolutely no reason to not pick MK.
Ooooo page ~70... Didn't you say page 7? :/I didn't post anything on the discussion, i didn't start posting until ~pg 70. you'd probably have to actually read a few of the posts
Yes, it does matter. If it didn't matter, game-breaking tactics like IC's chaingrabs would be put up for discussion more often than DDD's CG, and that's not the case as far as I've seen around the boards... And in melee, the tough maneuvers are inputted in seconds, not 8 whole minutes. The chances of ANY human being pressing up on the c-stick at the necessary speed for the duration of a match is PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE. You're bound to lose your timing, or your thumb will get tired, or you'll have to scratch somewhere, or whatever.
Then why compare Melee Fox to MK? How can you say "Fox is better than MK" if Fox wouldn't work in MK's world, where MK is king? If you can't properly compare two characters, why even bring it up, isn't that what anti-ban says with Sagat from SF4? And I'm pretty sure Fox would lose to MK if MK had Melee physics... Think about it: an invincible upB, 2-frame uair that combos into itself and could lead to a tornado kill off the top/upB gimping scenario off the sides, dair WoPs (by the way, dair is a semi-spike, so you'd be semi-spiked amazingly far off-stage and Mk would make it back while you didn't), un-clashable attacks, inability to land with an MK spamming tornado, 5 JUMPS, recovers from the lowest depths/farthest sides... All of this in Melee! It's like a slower-moving Jigglypuff fused with Marth and has Peach's frametrapping potential! I fail to see hwo Melee Fox would outplay a Melee MK.
Except by long-lasting hitboxes with good-enough disjoints to be relatively safe from the fire. Even Marth's counter beats it, but hey, what DOESN'T Marth's counter beat that isn't rapidfired projectiles?
How about... Pro-ban has attempted to explain why MK should be banned (tried learning how to counter planking), but the anti-ban side just keeps dismissing it and saying "get better" (scrooges)?
That is illogical, will never happen, and is a horrible example to even ask a question for.
Straw Man.
All right, we bring in all this data and all these reasons, and you just say this, end of debate, everyone goes home. Stop posting if you're going to do this.
No. Because the remaining 5% would win virtually everything, regardless how terrible they are. Remember, ganon has a whole bunch of 99/1 matchups; matchups where it doesn't matter how good you are, if you can press sideB, you will probably win.
Why are you even presenting such a silly example? Metaknight is not in Melee, he is in Brawl. Let's try sticking to a more relevant discussion instead of useless speculation about something that obviously isn't so (MK in Melee), shall we?
That is quite the bad ban criteria. So if banning 10 characters make 11 viable, its worth the shot?
Yeah.
This.
That would depend on how many characters are in the game, but such a statement like that is just straw-manning the criteria. We're looking at one, not ten.
Wrong, Sir!
What kind of stupid, unrelated question is that?
Translation: I'm tired of listening, so instead of just removing myself from the discussion, I'll claim it should be closed with a result in my favor.
Just because you want him banned doesn't mean hes getting banned.
Why are you still here then? Leave and let those who wish to discuss to continue on.
And vice versa, friend.
Removing 1 character to make 3 viables then? Id ban d3 and marth.
Ulti's hypothetical claimed Ganon was OVER-CENTRALIZING, not dominating. Completely different. He wouldn't be winning at all, he'd just be most of the placings. This however, irrelevant, since it's a strawman to begin with.
Hey UltiMario, try maining Snake and viewing the MK:Snake MU from the other side. Or, try maining Diddy and view the MK:Diddy MU from the other side.
The words never came out of my mouth, for one lol.
Banning MK would make more like 10 characters viable, vs only 3 or 4 right now...just saying <3
This also lol xD.
Ok, so you'd ban D3 for the standing infinite on his group, and Marth for the deathgrab on Ness and Lucas? Good luck, that could be adjusted with a surgical ban. Meta-Knight, as we can clearly see, has too many ways around surgical bans.
I'm going to use this quote to get this point across.
