Official Metaknight Discussion

[Zankoku]

If MK holds every spot except first... Tournaments cannot sustain themselves on meta-Knight alone.

I think I might get what you're trying to mean, but you're gonna haveta explain this one if I don't.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Ledge Grab Limits are fair rules regardless of MK's presence.

You don't need MK to plank.

Just sayin'

MK is by far the hardest character to stop on the ledge. Snake has anti-planking tools but Diddy doesn't really.

There are other characters that are capable of planking but the primary culprits like Pit and ROB are merely annoying while planking, and not virtually unstoppable like MK is.

Planking and scrooging are MK problems.

 

[Masmasher@]

Please see my above response regarding this topic. His hypothetical is flawed due to WHY the data occurs.

Exactly...
you and i can both agree that ganondorf sucks right.
if people ever did use him and he took 95% of the top placings then it would be because of populairity. now most of proban looks at overswarms data and says stuff like /thread, get ***** or "this is really good proof". except its not conclusive. its one of the many reasons that ommi can make consise small arguements and put his point across in a small post. By saying that there is a difference between MK dominace and ganon dominace you are saying that its more than just "i like this character". Tournament results dont lead to anything more except... hes being used. its a trap to make pro ban throw away the idea that high tournament usage and skewed data is a legit reason for banning.

 

[UltiMario]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=263165&page=276

That was the Ganon whatever that goes with "only #1 matters"


@Raziek:

I hate the "get better" arguement just as much as you do, but.....

We've established that Tourneys are varying in skill level.

Whos to not say that The Meta Knight players also are the ones with the most skill under their belt? MK is easy to learn so naturally MK mains would be more skilled with their character, and reach "maximum skill capacity" first. Only a few people like ADHD and Ally have been able to learn their character at the speeds the Meta Knight mains do, so they would rank high in tourneys.

The Melee scene is still changed 9 years in. Brawl is still in its childhood compared to that.


What proof is there against this?

and not virtually unstoppable like MK is.

Easily stoppable by half the cast =/= virtually unstoppable.

You'll have to do better than that.

 

[Raziek]

I think I might get what you're trying to mean, but you're gonna haveta explain this one if I don't.

If only MetaKnights attend tournaments, we're either left with a really crappy, boring game that revolves entirely around planking, scrooging, and camping in dittos, or the tournament base collapses due to the common community quitting.

You can't have tournaments without money. The people that aren't playing MetaKnight are a rather large portion of this money. If they stop coming, no more money, no more tourneys, no more game.

I hope that was clear enough.

 

[laki]

Except we don't do surgical bans for a reason. Its scrubby. Same reason we shouldn't ban a char as it makes viable 3 other chars. Your argument is completely flawed, you need more than just an overall increase in viability, you need to show that the character produces over centralization.

You, try again.

I believe Ankoku was the one who asked whats the good versus bad of banning a character or something like that.

In your example of banning D3 and Marth to make characters viable...it doesn't actually make anyone viable. D3 infinites Mario/Bowser/DK/Samus/Luigi.

Mario and Samus are low tier and bad and not important competitively.

Bowser and Dk get hard countered by MK....not viable. I think several DK mains in other discussions have admitted that Tornado totally wrecks DK because if your DI is followed you literally can't escape it and are screwed. I also think DK gets chaingrabed by wario to kill percents. Bowser Happens to be low tier and bad and not important. Also Falco still exists.

Luigi, Idk, but since he's the only one left, we can agree that we don't ban 1 char to make another one viable.

Marth counters 2 terrible chars that aren't viable if you ban marth.

On the MK end of the spectrum, It can be argued that he makes D3/Marth/G@W/Rob/Peach and the list goes on. You could prolly include Icies if scrooging is allowed. Removing 1 char so that 5+ GOOD chars become viable along with the hypothesis that people might come back to that game *many people seem to agree with that* seems like justification for banning meta.

I myself don't know if I'm pro-ban or not though I think OS edges out Omni and Pierce made a nice speech.

 

[CRASHiC]

I seriously think someone should lock this thread again. LOL, "melee fox could kick Meta's ***!" Worthless.

since you failed to explain why, allow me.


Something is only broken in relation to other things around them. Ya know what? Akuma in Super Turbo ain't **** compared to Slayer in Guilty Gear XX: Accent Core. Hell no! Slayer has a dash that GOES THROUGH ANY ATTACK!!!! Did you hear me? GOES STRAIGHT THROUGH! He is blazing fash and can kill some characters in 3 hits with full meter, no to mention he can canel many of his attacks to fake you out. Did I mention all of his unblockable bull ****? Dude's a real beast man I'm telling you. . . . . . . .


oh yeah, and he's only the third best character, so yeah.

Akuma would get his *** whooped in Guilty Gear XX Accent Core, as would Metaknight, doesn't mean that they aren't broken in their own games. Tiers are within relation to the world around them.

When the aliens come, they will be so awsome that everything we once thought was cool will make us ashamed.

if people ever did use him and he took 95% of the top placings then it would be because of populairity

Except Metaknights popularity is not balanced in relation to his victories at high level tournaments, and it becomes worse so in the higher levels of play in regards to popularity in relation to character success. Snake is the 2nd most popular charecter but where are his tournament showings in relation to Metaknight? Hardly anywhere.

 

[Raziek]

Exactly...
you and i can both agree that ganondorf sucks right.
if people ever did use him and he took 95% of the top placings then it would be because of populairity. now most of proban looks at overswarms data and says stuff like /thread, get ***** or "this is really good proof". except its not conclusive. its one of the many reasons that ommi can make consise small arguements and put his point across in a small post. By saying that there is a difference between MK dominace and ganon dominace you are saying that its more than just "i like this character". Tournament results dont lead to anything more except... hes being used. its a trap to make pro ban throw away the idea that high tournament usage and skewed data is a legit reason for banning.

Which is why we look at additional factors besides just tournament dominance, which Overswarm has outlined, and I'm not taking the time to repeat.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

since you failed to explain why, allow me.


Something is only broken in relation to other things around them. Ya know what? Akuma in Super Turbo ain't **** compared to Slayer in Guilty Gear XX: Accent Core. Hell no! Slayer has a dash that GOES THROUGH ANY ATTACK!!!! Did you hear me? GOES STRAIGHT THROUGH! He is blazing fash and can kill some characters in 3 hits with full meter, no to mention he can canel many of his attacks to fake you out. Did I mention all of his unblockable bull ****? Dude's a real beast man I'm telling you. . . . . . . .


oh yeah, and he's only the third best character, so yeah.

Akuma would get his *** whooped in Guilty Gear XX Accent Core, as would Metaknight, doesn't mean that they aren't broken in their own games. Tiers are within relation to the world around them.

When the aliens come, they will be so awsome that everything we once thought was cool will make us ashamed.

I love you CRASHiC, full homo

 

[Raziek]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=263165&page=276

That was the Ganon whatever that goes with "only #1 matters"


@Raziek:

I hate the "get better" arguement just as much as you do, but.....

We've established that Tourneys are varying in skill level.

Whos to not say that The Meta Knight players also are the ones with the most skill under their belt? MK is easy to learn so naturally MK mains would be more skilled with their character, and reach "maximum skill capacity" first. Only a few people like ADHD and Ally have been able to learn their character at the speeds the Meta Knight mains do, so they would rank high in tourneys.

The Melee scene is still changed 9 years in. Brawl is still in its childhood compared to that.


What proof is there against this?




Easily stoppable by half the cast =/= virtually unstoppable.

You'll have to do better than that.

Mk doesn't have that easy a learning curve. He's by no means the most difficult, but to see people play him because he'seasy is silly. People play him because he's easy to WIN WITH, not because he's easy to play.

Learning speed is not the key factor here, we've had plenty of time to establish this. Ally and ADHD win because they are skilled, not because they learn quickly.

Edit: There's also a flaw in your argument in that characters become extremely difficult to learn at their highest level, so the fact that MetaKnight mains happen to be taking the majority of the top spots is not a result of the learning speed at all, it's a result of the character.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=263165&page=276

That was the Ganon whatever that goes with "only #1 matters"


@Raziek:

I hate the "get better" arguement just as much as you do, but.....

We've established that Tourneys are varying in skill level.

Whos to not say that The Meta Knight players also are the ones with the most skill under their belt? MK is easy to learn so naturally MK mains would be more skilled with their character, and reach "maximum skill capacity" first. Only a few people like ADHD and Ally have been able to learn their character at the speeds the Meta Knight mains do, so they would rank high in tourneys.

The Melee scene is still changed 9 years in. Brawl is still in its childhood compared to that.


What proof is there against this?




Easily stoppable by half the cast =/= virtually unstoppable.

You'll have to do better than that.

if he simply jumps down and regrabs the ledge you have a three frame window to hit him and he doesn't even have to do that, dude has six jumps and can fly under the stage. LOL, stoppable by half the cast.

The closest comparison is Pit, who only has three jumps and dies when hit during his UP+B. I didn't even mention the fact that his aerials are much laggier than MKs and easily punished.

 

[UltiMario]

@Raziek

Ally and ADHD prove that beating MKs at the highest level of play is completely possible.

Its just a matter of time before other players catch up to them.

@SFP

Half the cast has ways to prevent MK from planking. Theres even a thread around here somewhere with that info.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Ally and ADHD prove that beating MKs at the highest level of play is completely possible.

Its just a matter of time before other players catch up to them.

As long as planking and scrooging are not allowed.

Half the cast has ways to prevent MK from planking. Theres even a thread around here somewhere with that info.

This is blatantly false, but what about scrooging? You can't kill what you can't hit.

 

[Masmasher@]

Which is why we look at additional factors besides just tournament dominance, which Overswarm has outlined, and I'm not taking the time to repeat.

The problem is that most of his statements are subjective... his criteria cant stand up the test of time nor is rigid enough. its based on his own outlook. which most of it in itself by nature is subjective.

 

[Raziek]

@Raziek

Ally and ADHD prove that beating MKs at the highest level of play is completely possible.

Its just a matter of time before other players catch up to them.

@SFP

Half the cast has ways to prevent MK from planking. Theres even a thread around here somewhere with that info.

No, actually, it's not, because not everyone has the potential to be as skilled as Ally and ADHD. People don't magically improve over time, and everyone ELSE, including the MK's, will continue to improve at the same rate. So, based on the fact that training can only account for so much, no, it is not just a matter of time.

Also, just because they have methods to, doesn't mean it's easy. A lot of the time you have to take a significant risk of getting hit. Not to say anything of the other half of the cast who have NO tools to deal with it. Planking is broken, end of story.

 

[UltiMario]

Mkay, SFP

LGLs.

Limit Scrooging to one scrooge every 25 seconds or something.



There. Problem solved, according to the logic you've just given me, MK is now 100% not overcentralizing or broken. Its not even ruining us or anything. I'm an MK main and I even find Planking stupid.


@Raziek:

People indeed become Magically better, as ADHD has, and climbed up to the point of beating M2K.

Its possible to become better, and win.

 

[iRJi]

@Raziek

Ally and ADHD prove that beating MKs at the highest level of play is completely possible.

Its just a matter of time before other players catch up to them.

@SFP

Half the cast has ways to prevent MK from planking. Theres even a thread around here somewhere with that info.

Lol, If that was true, it wouldn't be such a big issue.

It's not true lol. MK's planking is the best by a large margin.

 

[Raziek]

The problem is that most of his statements are subjective... his criteria cant stand up the test of time nor is rigid enough. its based on his own outlook. which most of it in itself by nature is subjective.

The only reason it's subjective is because Anti-ban refuses to come to an agreement on hard criteria, and if we put forward our own numbers, you'll just cry about bias, and nobody gets anywhere. It's unfortunate that it is, but this ban HAS to be the result of subjective debate. Get over it.

 

[Raziek]

Mkay, SFP

LGLs.

Limit Scrooging to one scrooge every 25 seconds or something.



There. Problem solved, according to the logic you've just given me, MK is now 100% not overcentralizing or broken. Its not even ruining us or anything. I'm an MK main and I even find Planking stupid.

Now it's a surgical ban, which is a bad idea as previous outlined. All that means is the MK's will just abuse their one scrooge per x amount of time as much as they can, and play gay in all the remaining time. YOU SIMPLY CANNOT SURGICALLY BAN ALL OF MK'S TACTICS. It's just not possible.

 

[iRJi]

Now it's a surgical ban, which is a bad idea as previous outlined. All that means is the MK's will just abuse their one scrooge per x amount of time as much as they can, and play gay in all the remaining time. YOU SIMPLY CANNOT SURGICALLY BAN ALL OF MK'S TACTICS. It's just not possible.

This ^^^^^^^

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Mkay, SFP

LGLs.

Limit Scrooging to one scrooge every 25 seconds or something.



There. Problem solved, according to the logic you've just given me, MK is now 100% not overcentralizing or broken. Its not even ruining us or anything. I'm an MK main and I even find Planking stupid.

Congratulations, you've just limited MK's access to basic game mechanics thus admitting that he is broken inside of the scope we wish the game to be played and artificially limited several characters who are not broken on the ledge.

You've also instituted a surgical ban which limits Meta Knight's ability to play to win and forces him to play in a way that doesn't maximize his chances of winning because you're a scrub and think the way he was playing is "cheap."

So which is it? Is MK broken, or not? If he's broken, ban him. if he's not, let him reign.

 

[UltiMario]

Then Scrooging be banned except for recovery purposes, in order to scrooge, an MK would have to be hit by an attack with obviously large enough knockback to require recovering, which can result in them actually losing their stock. I see no problem with this, as you're treating it as MKs only win by Scrooging the Planking, and otherwise has 0-100 matchups against every character in the game, which is false to the extreme.

Now what is the arguement?

Edit: Planking and scrooging can be done by multiple characters, not quite as well as MK, but they can.

These are banned as simply being stall tactics, not for nerfing MK. Stupids.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

That's not true at all.

He has a 10-90 against Jigglypuff, who can also float under the stage!

But seriously, that is the most impractical rule I have ever heard and TOs everywhere are giggling.

 

[Raziek]

Then Scrooging be banned except for recovery purposes, in order to scrooge, an MK would have to be hit by an attack with obviously large enough knockback to require recovering, which can result in them actually losing their stock. I see no problem with this, as you're treating it as MKs only win by Scrooging the Planking, and otherwise has 0-100 matchups against every character in the game, which is false to the extreme.

Now what is the arguement?

Not even reading all of this, still surgical, if you refuse to comprehend why surgical is a bad idea, your argument is invalid.

 

[UltiMario]

Mkay. Lets ban Jigglypuff in Melee rather than banning stalling from the Rising Pound.

 

[Masmasher@]

The only reason it's subjective is because Anti-ban refuses to come to an agreement on hard criteria, and if we put forward our own numbers, you'll just cry about bias, and nobody gets anywhere. It's unfortunate that it is, but this ban HAS to be the result of subjective debate. Get over it.

Not really...
as pro ban you have to bring alot to the table. You shouldnt be surprised that you see less effort from the anti ban side. there are 2 simple questions. Is he broken, does he over centralize. its a issue of standards. proban issues with mk are fickle. broken and over centraliztion can be figured out. but your doing it wrong.

 

[iRJi]

Then Scrooging be banned except for recovery purposes, in order to scrooge, an MK would have to be hit by an attack with obviously large enough knockback to require recovering, which can result in them actually losing their stock. I see no problem with this, as you're treating it as MKs only win by Scrooging the Planking, and otherwise has 0-100 matchups against every character in the game, which is false to the extreme.

Now what is the arguement?

Edit: Planking and scrooging can be done by multiple characters, not quite as well as MK, but they can.

These are banned as simply being stall tactics, not for nerfing MK. Stupids.

Can't be done lol. If it was possible, it would have been done already.

Opps, there goes that =]

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

If you acknowledge that scrooging and planking are problems then you acknowledge MK is a problem.

If you don't beileve these techniques are problems then MK is probably fine.

Mkay. Lets ban Jigglypuff in Melee rather than banning stalling from the Rising Pound.

Oh, and MK in Brawl rather than banning IDC right? Hey, you've got me now!

Except not, because IDC and Rising Pound are both similar in that they only affect one move that one character has and are visual, easily enforcable with no vague wording or far-reaching (that is, multi-character) implications. These bans are vastly different.

 

[iRJi]

I am just waiting for his next response. It's funny.

 

[Kewkky]

Mkay, SFP

LGLs.

Limit Scrooging to one scrooge every 25 seconds or something.

There. Problem solved, according to the logic you've just given me, MK is now 100% not overcentralizing or broken. Its not even ruining us or anything. I'm an MK main and I even find Planking stupid.

Mk can just use his 5 offstage jumps and land with a tornado FAR away from the opponent once they put themselves in a vulnerable position, thinking that MK was going to land earlier/grab the ledge, then regrab the other edge, and in 25 seconds' time, he'll have another scrooge ready to use.

 

[Allied]

Still want to ban mk guys?

 

[UltiMario]

I don't think their problems because MK doesn't have a reason to use them anyway. MK doesn't have some sort of extreme problem where hes getting ***** in match-ups against other characters.

MKs that Plank and Scrooge to win are only doing so in an attempt to beat a player more skilled than them, IMO.

 

[Raziek]

Mkay. Lets ban Jigglypuff in Melee rather than banning stalling from the Rising Pound.

Jigglypuff is stalling under the stage, this tactic is also banned in Brawl already, because they cannot be attacked underneath the stage.

Surgical bans are warranted in VERY few situations, but this is one of them. Clearly you're not getting this.

MKs that Plank and Scrooge to win are only doing so in an attempt to beat a player more skilled than them, IMO.

So then are you aware that M2K scrooged Ally to win at Pound 4? You must not be. People will bend the rules as much as possible to win, which is why global bans are required to begin with.

 

[Allied]

I don't think their problems because MK doesn't have a reason to use them anyway. MK doesn't have some sort of extreme problem where hes getting ***** in match-ups against other characters.

MKs that Plank and Scrooge to win are only doing so in an attempt to beat a player more skilled than them, IMO.

not necessarily true its just 10 times easier to do that then play the game sometimes against top players

 

[iRJi]

I don't think their problems because MK doesn't have a reason to use them anyway. MK doesn't have some sort of extreme problem where hes getting ***** in match-ups against other characters.

MKs that Plank and Scrooge to win are only doing so in an attempt to beat a player more skilled than them, IMO.

See, now you ****ed up =].

I was waiting for that.

You are now assuming that he is not going to do it because he does not need too.

Now, you tell me, if I have a tactic that is going to increase my rate of winning by a huge margin, why would i not do it...

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I don't think their problems because MK doesn't have a reason to use them anyway. MK doesn't have some sort of extreme problem where hes getting ***** in match-ups against other characters.

MKs that Plank and Scrooge to win are only doing so in an attempt to beat a player more skilled than them, IMO.

The issue is that they probably will win.

Also, lol at your first paragraph. "It's not a problem because MK doesn't have any bad matchups!" Good one, champ.

 

[UltiMario]

Jigglypuff is stalling under the stage, this tactic is also banned in Brawl already, because they cannot be attacked underneath the stage.

Well, I'm hearing complaints about how hard MK is to hit while planking and scrooging.


If I have to explain this you may need to find common sense books

 

[Allied]

See, now you ****ed up =].

I was waiting for that.

You are now assuming that he is not going to do it because he does not need too.

Now, you tell me, if I have a tactic that is going to increase my rate of winning by a huge margin, why would i not do it...

well its a fairly easy tactic RJ why don't you just go MK and do it yourself in tournament even though everyone in NY/NJ doesn't do that and really the only one who has done it is M2K at pound4

You guys are about to convience me to go metaknight xD

 

[Raziek]

Well, I'm hearing complaints about how hard MK is to hit while planking and scrooging.


If I have to explain this you may need to find common sense books

Nice hidden text. It's not the same. People want to ban it, but because the subject is quite vague, it's difficult. Surgical bans cannot adequately deal with it, or they would be implemented, which is why we require a global ban instead.

 

[Kewkky]

Then Scrooging be banned except for recovery purposes, in order to scrooge, an MK would have to be hit by an attack with obviously large enough knockback to require recovering, which can result in them actually losing their stock. I see no problem with this, as you're treating it as MKs only win by Scrooging the Planking, and otherwise has 0-100 matchups against every character in the game, which is false to the extreme.

What about if MK grabs the ledge because Snake approaches and MK is at 170% and he just SDI'd out of an ftilt properly, then while MK was jumping below the ledge, Snake planted a claymore at ledgejumping distance, set a grenade at ledge get-up, dropped a grenade OVER the ledge so MK will be forced to keep grabbing the ledge, and started charging an fsmash at rolling distance? This is routine for some Snakes, so it is very practical and doable. Mk can be saved by a scrooge, but scrooging is banned! The rules just doomed him to die!

Are you happy with this?

I don't think their problems because MK doesn't have a reason to use them anyway. MK doesn't have some sort of extreme problem where hes getting ***** in match-ups against other characters.

MKs that Plank and Scrooge to win are only doing so in an attempt to beat a player more skilled than them, IMO.

Ah, you're slowly getting it! The bad thing is that these tactics DO work and they DO beat people more skilled than them who are obviously outplaying them, a la Ally vs M2K @ 5th round in Pound4... Is it really fair for Ally to have lost so much money?

And there was a 50-ledgegrab rule @ Pound4, yet people were STILL planking/other forms of pseudo-stalling here and there!