Official MBR Tier List

[Merkuri]

Yes, but those votes are heavily based on tournament results.

I think that this is a flawed system for the reasons that Kniht pointed out.

Personally I think that the tier list should be based on matchups and weights. All it would take would be to assign a number to a matchup (i.e 10:0=1, 9:1=2, etc.) then multiply that by a character weight based on popularity in tournament, and then do that for each subsequent matchup. the formula would look something like this
vs. Pichu
∑(x*character weight)
x=vs. Fox

Do this for every character and order the values in descending order and then that is the tier list.

The problem with basing the list on weighted match ups is that the weights for the match ups would have to be assigned based on the characters' place on the tier list. But at the same time we want to use the match up chart to assign the tier list. We kind of fall into a cache 22, theoretically what you propose seems impossible.

 

[Pengie]

"Yes, but those votes are heavily based on tournament results."

Says who?

Fair enough, I was talking out of my ass on that one point. I still think there is a better way to make the tier list that doesn't involve a voting process. Hence why I took a more mathematic approach that eliminates as much bias as possible.

The problem with basing the list on weighted match ups is that the weights for the match ups would have to be assigned based on the characters' place on the tier list. But at the same time we want to use the match up chart to assign the tier list. We kind of fall into a cache 22, theoretically what you propose seems impossible.

Not necessarily, the character weights can be based on popularity in tournaments. This thread could be modified to account for character popularity, and then the weights would be based on this threads results.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Fox/Jiggs/Falco no order

Sheik Marth

Peach Falcon ICs

Ganon/Samus Doc

Mario/Pika Luigi DK Link

Zelda/Mewtwo/Young Link Roy/Game & Watch

Other characters in some order

 

[Kyu Puff]

That looks perfect.

 

[KAOSTAR]

yea thats it. roy still sucks **** tho lol.and gw lmao. lil *****.

but good *** list. post that **** homie.

 

[Merkuri]

I think Lugi > Pikachu. He has better match up against pretty much all higher tiers except maybe against spacies.

 

[rhan]

I think Ganon > Samus on the tier list.

Link below DK?

 

[Nø Ca$h]

doc is amazing. anyone who disagrees obviously has never been to a tournament because doc ***** the tourny scene.

 

[Divinokage]

doc is amazing. anyone who disagrees obviously has never been to a tournament because doc ***** the tourny scene.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7HkePfcIvw lol. =P

 

[mhenlo]

I think Lugi > Pikachu. He has better match up against pretty much all higher tiers except maybe against spacies.

not against peach and jiggs up smash kills at such low % and then add spacies that leaves sheik and marth?

 

[Doc King]

May I ask this but why does Peach always have to be right above Falcon? I mean I think that Falcon can do more epic stuff than Peach and I think that Falcon should have a time to be above her.

 

[rhan]

Being epic doesn't make you better.

 

[EPsilon933]

May I ask this but why does Peach always have to be right above Falcon? I mean I think that Falcon can do more epic stuff than Peach and I think that Falcon should have a time to be above her.

She has less bad matchups.

 

[Doc King]

I should explain my reason of why I think Falcon should be higher.

Falcon has the fastest running speed while being pretty strong. He has the best moonwalk and has some really good techniques like wall jumping, tech chase (like Sheik but faster), nipple spike, etc. He has a pretty good recovery, he is heavy so it's hard to KO him. So pretty much, Falcon is an overpowered character.

While Peach in my opinion is kindof slow and weak with bad vertical recovery, a very slow double jump which makes it hard to combo and chase opponents, and a very predictable Down Smash.

 

[rhan]

Just shut up...

 

[Doc King]

She has less bad matchups.

I don't think Falcon really has any bad matchups (maybe Sheik though). Falcon is like a character that can go good with anything (somewhat like Sheik).

 

[EPsilon933]

Just shut up...

Don't worry about him, he's just confused. Doc, I think you actually need to play these characters vs human players to really understand how they work.

I should explain my reason of why I think Falcon should be higher.

Falcon has the fastest running speed while being pretty strong. He has the best moonwalk and has some really good techniques like wall jumping, tech chase (like Sheik but faster), nipple spike, etc. He has a pretty good recovery, he is heavy so it's hard to KO him. So pretty much, Falcon is an overpowered character.

While Peach in my opinion is kindof slow and weak with bad vertical recovery, a very slow double jump which makes it hard to combo and chase opponents, and a very predictable Down Smash.

*smirk*

Ok, but seriously. One of the main things that ruins Captain Falcon is his lack of priority. He has really good combo ability, it's just that his ability to get that first good hit isn't good enough to keep up with characters who do have both (Marth, Sheik, Fox, Falco). Also, about him having good recovery, he doesn't. Edgeguarding him is so easy. It's easy to ko him when he's so easy to edgeguard to death. [slighthyperbole]So pretty much Falcon is and under powered character compared to Peach.[/slight hyperbole]

She's slow, but she is a priority tank that just beats everything out there. Actually, she's not so slow at all (float cancels). Not having a good vertical recovery doesn't matter when you're never below the stage. Characters can't be predictable, players can be.

 

[leelue]

Allow me to give you an itemized rebuttal, as a peach player.
Ahem

Fastest running speed is helpful, but it doesn't make a character good. Pikachu is tied for third fastest and he is most certainly not fantastic.

All of the high tier characters are strong. Seriously. Ever been hit by a peach nair? Fair? Falcon has more power behind the knee of justice, yes, but peach also has the strongest forward throw in the game.

Moonwalk? Walljump? Neither one of those things should be listed as a reason for a characters dominance. Mario walljumps and Doc is better. Pichu and Pikachu? Same. The number of advanced techniques a character has does not correlate with greatness. Yoshi has a lot of complexities but he is, sadly, garbage (no offense Yoshi players I think he is the most underrated guy on the roster)

Tech Chase. Got me there. Can't lie.

Falcon does not have a good recovery. Not when compared to any of the other characters above him at least (save for maybe falco). And talkin about recovery when comparing a character to peach is ill advised. A poor point to make, to say tje least.

Peach is slow. No doubt about that.

Bad vertical recovery? Poppycock. At least not when compared to (you guessed it) falcon. Even from a topical perspective her up B actually hits people.


Slow double jump is completely offset by her ability to double jump cancel. Not only that, back and neutral airs on peach are quick and powerful when in the djc.

Predictable down smash? If something is predictable it usually means your opponents don't know how to play proper smash. Simple as that. Exceptions include when you are tech chasing (limited options combined with a small.window to make a choice) and other such things where options are short.

My character has a projectile. Which, by the way, is awesome.

Peach floats.

Peach has a better crouch cancel.

Peach is much harder to Gimp.

Peach is harder to combo (unless you are marth... stupid character...) slower fall speed is more advantageous than the alternative.

Peach overall is a more well rounded character. Falcon is good, better than good no doubt, but having more bad matchups and more gimps makes him just a bit worse than my girl.

If there are typos, I apologize. My phone auto corrects like a lunatic.

Can't believe this is my first post in over a year.

 

[Dark Hart]

I don't think Falcon really has any bad matchups (maybe Sheik though). Falcon is like a character that can go good with anything (somewhat like Sheik).

k thanks, bye

 

[G.L.]

peach > falcon duh. i think the real question is about if fox or falco is the better spacie

 

[leelue]

Usurper got there before me. Good job though

 

[Silly Kyle]

Peach is totes better than Falcon!!

 

[Merkuri]

not against peach and jiggs up smash kills at such low % and then add spacies that leaves sheik and marth?

Pikachu has just a hard time with Peach as Luigi does. Landing up smash is hard against Peach and Pikachu's approach has zero priority. Next to Shiek Jigs is likely Pikachu's worst match up, he can't combo her into anything and damage or priority wise his aerials can't compete with Jigs, Luigi does far better against Jigs than Piika, in fact Luigi is one of the few low tiers people think has the potential to counter jigs.

Ice Climbers **** Pikachu, and Samus beats him as well. Luigi goes even with both of them(some people even say he beats Ics)

 

[EPsilon933]

peach > falcon duh. i think the real question is about if fox or falco is the better spacie

Breaking characters down beyond their tiers is too open to interpretation. Just leave those 2 as equally good.

 

[Merkuri]

Breaking characters down beyond their tiers is too open to interpretation. Just leave those 2 as equally good.

Nah, that's settling for inaccuracy. We should break them down completely.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I think Lugi > Pikachu. He has better match up against pretty much all higher tiers except maybe against spacies.

Hmmmm.

Pika is definitely better vs Falcon and probably better vs Peach too. In addition to space animals.

Luigi is better vs Puff, Marth, ICs.

They're about equally bad against Sheik. Ganon I don't know but I don't see why it would matter.

 

[Merkuri]

Hmmmm.

Pika is definitely better vs Falcon and probably better vs Peach too. In addition to space animals.

Luigi is better vs Puff, Marth, ICs.

They're about equally bad against Sheik. Ganon I don't know but I don't see why it would matter.

I don't think Pikachu is better than Luigi is Peach, but if so then the difference is minuscule and insignificant.

I think Pikachu definitely does worst than Luigi vs Shiek, a zero to death CG is too much.

 

[Divinokage]

Hmmmm.

Pika is definitely better vs Falcon and probably better vs Peach too. In addition to space animals.

Luigi is better vs Puff, Marth, ICs.

They're about equally bad against Sheik. Ganon I don't know but I don't see why it would matter.

Hmm.. I think Luigi might have it slightly harder than Pika vs Ganon. Probably due to his ****ty recovery that can be edgeguarded a million times before he's able to come back. Sure Ganon has a CG vs Pika too but.. it's much harder to catch Pika than a floaty Luigi. All in all, Pika has more tools for mix-ups. Though I still find both of them might have it hard to approach Ganon efficiently though.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I think falcon is better than peach because of speed. His mobility is a huge asset that allows him to punish better than anyone else as well as avoid being locked down. The only thing that really gives him trouble is characters who he can't shield against (falco, fox, puff, sheik) because his rolls is pretty poor and his attacks out of shield are as bad as grab or worse. The fact of the matter is, he has serious priority in his bair and knee, enough to successfully wall and appraoch. He does get punished very harshly by the top tiers, but he also can z2d combo just about everyone and has guaranteed kill options off grab that rival fox's; i'd rather be uthrow uair'd than dthrow/uthrow knee'd cause u can always SDI the uair and it doesnt kill til ~100% while knee kills at 80% and there is no escape.

Peach has really good out of shield options and a good projectile, but her speed and range are pretty poor. If you can out range peach you can win (fox's bair > peach's moveset)

 

[EPsilon933]

I think falcon is better than peach because of speed. His mobility is a huge asset that allows him to punish better than anyone else as well as avoid being locked down. The only thing that really gives him trouble is characters who he can't shield against (falco, fox, puff, sheik) because his rolls is pretty poor and his attacks out of shield are as bad as grab or worse. The fact of the matter is, he has serious priority in his bair and knee, enough to successfully wall and appraoch. He does get punished very harshly by the top tiers, but he also can z2d combo just about everyone and has guaranteed kill options off grab that rival fox's; i'd rather be uthrow uair'd than dthrow/uthrow knee'd cause u can always SDI the uair and it doesnt kill til ~100% while knee kills at 80% and there is no escape.

Peach has really good out of shield options and a good projectile, but her speed and range are pretty poor. If you can out range peach you can win (fox's bair > peach's moveset)

But... but... but... No Falcon player out there out placed ARmada in a super big tournament. Ever.

And really, the Knee is a good approach? Falcon's only real good approach is nair. Bair does have some good priority, but walling with bairs just opens up many holes in your approach. Sure he can 0-death everyone, but that'd be a bit of a hyperbole. Dthrow Knee is easy to escape (as Peach at least), just DI away with ~30 degrees downward. When Falcon gets close enough to Knee you, there's a small frame window where you can escape (Peach can either nair or up b).

Peach's speed and range are poor? Maybe speed is poor when you compare it to Fox/Falco/Falcon/Sheik, but float cancels do speed her up a lot. Her range is the reason why her priority is the best in the game. A lot of her moves are disjointed (fair, bair, dsmash, jab, dtilt).


In this post I meant to include that Peach has a lot of disjointed hitboxes which secretly give her range and Priority, but then I started emphasizing priority more than range too much.

 

[Nø Ca$h]

theres no such thing as "priority". its just what move comes out faster and has more range.

 

[Cosmo!]

I guess "range" is a better term (though somewhat vague) but you could call it priority too and I don't think anybody really minds it

marth's utilt has more priority than zelda's dair.

as in, the hitbox compared to the hurtbox of marth when he is doing utilt has a taller distance than the bottom of zelda's dair hitbox to her foot's hurtbox

 

[Druggedfox]

There IS a difference between range and priority... it's 2010 people... either I'm missing something, or you are... and I have a feeling it's not me in this case.

Cosmo's right, priority is all about hitbox vs hurtbox. In theory, a move could have amazing range, and 0 priority. That is to say, the move hits very far away from the character using it, but that any part of the move is a hurtbox.

On the other hand, a move could have no range and amazing priority. In this case, the move would hardly extend at all beyond the character using it, but it would be impossible to actually damage the character by hitting the move.

 

[Winston]

There is such thing as ground priority. Smashes will go through jabs when they hit at the same time. Some ground moves clank when they hit at the same time.

When there's an air hitbox involved though, it's all hitbox vs hurtbox.

Whenever the issue comes up though there's almost always an air hitbox involved though...

 

[JPOBS]

when people say "priority" they are usually referring to the distance between an attacks fully extended hitbox, and the hurtbox of the character using it.

Range is just how far an attack reaches, and doesnt necessarily dictate priority at all.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

But... but... but... No Falcon player out there out placed ARmada in a super big tournament. Ever.

Troll argument? No <insert character here> beat mango using mario at <insert tournament mango won with mario>

armada is the 3rd best player in the WORLD. The player placed where he placed, not the character.

And really, the Knee is a good approach? Falcon's only real good approach is nair.

hmm tons of priority, can't be shield grabbed, low landing lag, great follow up opportunities at every percent, kills eventually... only down side is the 12 start up frames, which isn't an issue unless the person is already in your zone (then ur problem isn't your move choice....)

nair has good range but is easily CCd by pretty much every character, doesn't hit above him, ect. basically its a good walling move to stop people from running at him (basically the only time someone will be on the ground but not able to CC)

Bair does have some good priority, but walling with bairs just opens up many holes in your approach.

your defense hurts your offense? how? if you are taking "walling with bairs" to the extreme like saying "use nothing but bair... GO!", then sure. I mean mixing up ur moves and using bair to stuff approaches with its great speed, low lag, and high priority.... not to mention its combo potential (the combo part gets repetitive seeing as literally every move falcon has combos thx to his ability to run as fast or faster than most knockback speeds)

Sure he can 0-death everyone, but that'd be a bit of a hyperbole. Dthrow Knee is easy to escape (as Peach at least), just DI away with ~30 degrees downward. When Falcon gets close enough to Knee you, there's a small frame window where you can escape (Peach can either nair or up b).

news to me, though ive never seen it and i'm pretty sure SS and hax were getting dthrow knees on armada so it still must be at least moderately effective as a combo move). Not to mention i think knee has more priority than umbrella and nair, but thats neither here nor there.

Peach's speed and range are poor? Maybe speed is poor when you compare it to Fox/Falco/Falcon/Sheik, but float cancels do speed her up a lot. Her range is the reason why her priority is the best in the game. A lot of her moves are disjointed (fair, bair, dsmash, jab, dtilt).

Speed. As in running. She can't catch up to people.
Range. As in length. She can't hit people without getting fairly close to them.

Yes, she has nearly 0 lag. Yes, she has priority. Thx for the topic change.

In this post I meant to include that Peach has a lot of disjointed hitboxes which secretly give her range and Priority, but then I started emphasizing priority more than range too much.

disjointed doesn't give range. her fair has no range when compared marth's sword or puff's bair. There just happens to be almost no hurtbox inside that decently sized hitbox.

There IS a difference between range and priority... it's 2010 people... either I'm missing something, or you are... and I have a feeling it's not me in this case.

Cosmo's right, priority is all about hitbox vs hurtbox. In theory, a move could have amazing range, and 0 priority. That is to say, the move hits very far away from the character using it, but that any part of the move is a hurtbox.

On the other hand, a move could have no range and amazing priority. In this case, the move would hardly extend at all beyond the character using it, but it would be impossible to actually damage the character by hitting the move.

i think a good move for high range and no priority is mewtwo's bair or ftilt

a move with little range and lots of priority is falco's shine (literally 0 hurtbox when the hitbox is active)

 

[KAOSTAR]

I didn't know mango won any tourneys with mario. ive only known him to enter 3-4. he didn't win the ones I saw.

not that it matters, just sayin really.

 

[Winston]

The community should just adopt the term "disjointedness" and drop the term "priority" so we can stop arguing about this all the time.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

or we can agree the priority can also refer to the distance from the edge of the hitbox to the start of the hurtbox.

 

[Winston]

Yeah we could do that, but isn't the name kind of confusing and implies something different from that? That seems to be where the confusion comes from.

I don't actually expect people to stop saying priority, but it's such a terrible name for the concept.