Official MBR Tier List

[SpaceFalcon]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3ofI4cVBdI&feature=related
That's about all I need to say about your Falcon. Forward Smash to Forward Smash... DI/Teching failure FTW?

Darkrain is probably the best Falcon in the world... you'd have a very hard time disputing that fact. He's such a **** player. But Cactuar really exposes Falcon's character flaws (moves come out slow, crap shield, crap sidestep, crap tech roll, crap recovery, low priority)

 

[Europhoria]

I just don't think your opinion counts for that much because I don't think you have a good understanding of the game due to your skill/skill of your opponents. I don't really wanna ask your crew-mates how good you are cause 1 of them is an f-smash spammy Fox LOL /trashtalk I know you're not THAT bad

But seriously...
This tier list is really confusing. I'm not sure what tourney results it can be based on because no Doc has done anything for over a year now (or more). Pikachu players have had much better success the Doc in fact, for example that is, like Anther, N64, -Chad- and ChuDat.

I'm curious as to what tournaments the list was based on to be honest. Umbreon, could you field this for me? Did you guys just look at the biggest tournaments or did you bother to look at small-large scale regional tournaments as well. Because honestly the tier list doesn't make sense if it's tournament result based with either approach.

 

[xXx-NoobKing-xXx]

I just don't think your opinion counts for that much because I don't think you have a good understanding of the game due to your skill/skill of your opponents. I don't really wanna ask your crew-mates how good you are cause 1 of them is an f-smash spammy Fox LOL /trashtalk I know you're not THAT bad

But seriously...
This tier list is really confusing. I'm not sure what tourney results it can be based on because no Doc has done anything for over a year now (or more). Pikachu players have had much better success the Doc in fact, for example that is, like Anther, N64, -Chad- and ChuDat.

I'm curious as to what tournaments the list was based on to be honest. Umbreon, could you field this for me? Did you guys just look at the biggest tournaments or did you bother to look at small-large scale regional tournaments as well. Because honestly the tier list doesn't make sense if it's tournament result based with either approach.

Well considering I've played the best players in the world at any given time (meaning I've played both Ken and M2K) as well as a slew of other top ranked players , many of which I've beaten occasionally. All that over the course of 5 years... several major and countless minor tournaments. My opinion counts for alot more than you think. I can tell you that.

 

[KevinM]

I want to do a study between ganon players and name dropping.

 

[Europhoria]

I mostly just like annoying Canadian WC players. But playing people/beating them in friendlies doesn't matter (no matter what Chadddd says xD).

I just think this tier list didn't really look at a lot of advances to the metagame of characters. It doesn't take into account the possible effects that players learning crouch canceling would have. CC grabbing is so important but it feels like no one really has any clue about it.

Most people look at match ups very conventionally and just assume if you don't have to approach you shouldn't. Like Fox vs. Falcon (since I was talking about Falcon) they just assume playing defensive puts you at the advantage because they have to make the first move (due to lasers) and you can punish that. They don't take into account what Fox can do if he rushes Falcon down (see Cactuar vs. Darkrain) and how more of an advantage it gives him. Same with Marth vs. Ganon/Falcon. So most people play it the dumb way and the match-up seems closer then it really is.

This tier list basically frustrates because I don't think there was any reason to release it. It's basically the old tier list with DK and Luigi no longer in low tier + slight boost for Jiggs.

 

[JFox]

CC grabbing is so important but it feels like no one really has any clue about it.

OMG i know what ur saying. Besides a select few, most people never really CC grab. Marth's that do that ****. It completely ***** mindless shuffles, and is especially effective on Foxes who just mindlessly shffl nair ALL DAY. But no one is gonna use it. Im not even afraid to post it on a message board for hundreds of people to read, because most people are so dumb that they dont even understand the importance of this technique.

 

[Ryan-K]

Hey I do it all the time

wait we never played

so maybe we should jfox

it's so broken lol, especially with marth if you CC but do the thing where you DI with your shield as well so you slide back out of like shine range yet are still within your own grab range

xfd

 

[Europhoria]

OMG i know what ur saying. Besides a select few, most people never really CC grab. Marth's that do that ****. It completely ***** mindless shuffles, and is especially effective on Foxes who just mindlessly shffl nair ALL DAY. But no one is gonna use it. Im not even afraid to post it on a message board for hundreds of people to read, because most people are so dumb that they dont even understand the importance of this technique.

Agreed. In Kansas most people I did it too didn't even understand it after I explained it to them, let alone know about it at all.

 

[Ryan-K]

actually I find it difficult to explain to people, I just like learned it on my own and it's just a reaction for me, BUM did it all the time so yeah, it's a wonder why more ppl don't do it.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

OMG i know what ur saying. Besides a select few, most people never really CC grab. Marth's that do that ****. It completely ***** mindless shuffles, and is especially effective on Foxes who just mindlessly shffl nair ALL DAY. But no one is gonna use it. Im not even afraid to post it on a message board for hundreds of people to read, because most people are so dumb that they dont even understand the importance of this technique.

WORD LOL. CCing(or ASDIing down, of you're in lag) so SO BROKEN, it basically negates using all attacks that aren't grabs (or certain moves with lots of ground stun, like stomps and drills) at lower percents. And it makes jabs useless at any percent. Not abused enough.

boys and girls get it through your thick heads

this tier list is perfect

it is beyond perfection

Yhea. This is by far the best tier list.

Spoiler

even though I dont agree with all of it. but they're the SBR and know far more about this game then me lol

This one doesn't have any chars that are completely in the wrong place (according to the majority of the smash community), same can't be said for the previous ones.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynjeIlBAIGM
Falcon is such a good character. Look at all the priority he has, and those awesome defensive options dealing with approaches. His recovery is SO awesome too. He totally deserves to be so high on the tier list.

Falcon gets sorta ***** by fox (imo)... but apart from fox, falco and sheik his matchups are all ****/very good (might be forgetting something), so imo he even deserves to be above peach.

 

[indie_dave]

this discussion got boring after ppl who mattered stopped posting.
namely: Mow, M2K, Xif.

anybody who probably wasn't included in the actual tier balloting i ignored. sbr is not a free country, they have border patrol u kno lulz. at least when Gimpy, MaNg0, Chaddd and hungrybox troll, it's funny. i know i skipped some goodies by KishPrime, KevinM and others, sry.

ok i will now sink into obscurity (who the **** is that guy? yeah he's one to talk)
and never post here again.

p.s. i say jigs and sheik for god tier liek m2k, but it doesn't matter. i don't matter.

 

[hoopspr226]

How would lightshielding and CC grabbing by CF affect the Fox/CF matchup? It seems like it would inhibit Fox's ability to shield pressure and would have, for example, helped Darkrain a lot in that matchup?

Also, what if Falcon smash DI-ed inside his shield out of shine range and then perhaps went for a shield grab when Fox tries to nair-shine shield pressure approach? Would that work?

 

[HARDGAY]

How would lightshielding and CC grabbing by CF affect the Fox/CF matchup? It seems like it would inhibit Fox's ability to shield pressure and would have, for example, helped Darkrain a lot in that matchup?

Also, what if Falcon smash DI-ed inside his shield out of shine range and then perhaps went for a shield grab when Fox tries to nair-shine shield pressure approach? Would that work?

A big factor in the way CC is effective is the timing of the aerials. It is possible for Fox to latenair into shine before you can CC grab. I proved this at Kansas upon request. Darkrain shield DI-ing would not have helped greatly in that the pressure was not consistently nair shine. In many many situations, it is better to not shine out of aerial and continue using aerials and passing through the opponents. Being behind your opponent is a huge advantage. Darkrain did get a significant number of shield grabs, but was unable to tech chase due to smart tech/notech patterns.

 

[Europhoria]

Yes, you did prove it. But for Fox to n-air that late (this applies more vs. Marth/Sheik/Falco, etc.) to avoid being CC grabbed is really awkward. It really hinders it's use as an approach as much as CC does IMO

 

[Wobbles]

CC is beatable with... spacing? You'll have a tough time CC grabbing a Fox that b-air tips you even if you are Marth. In fact, Marth should have a tough time CC grabbing most of the higher tier characters; Fox with b-air, u-air and d-air (and potentially cross-up n-air), Falco's d-air (just too much stun) and b-air, Sheik's b-air, Peach's anything because of low lag and the fear of d-smash, Falcon with d-air or knee or a tipped b-air, Puff can cross up and space away with most moves although she risks f-smash... lower than that it becomes way more effective, depending on the character.

I'm not saying it's a bad technique at all, it's just significantly more effective against ground moves than aerials when your opponent can space well.

 

[idea]

imagine if, instead of getting a grab, you could punish them by making them explode

 

[BrawlLover]

explosionnn

 

[KirbyKaze]

Jigglypuff and Wigglytuff should get Huge Power and Explosion I think.

I mean, they're balloons.

 

[BrawlLover]

wigglytuff i do want to see

 

[idea]

Jigglypuff and Wigglytuff should get Huge Power and Explosion I think.

I mean, they're balloons.

...holy ****. if wigglytuff were in smash...i've never even thought about that. it'd be some weird combination of fox and puff. with maybe a dash of ganon somehow =D

what if smash had...mantine? or haunter? or scyther?!

 

[TheManaLord]

cc grab sucks

u gotta eat a hit

never take a hit unless necessary

dont cc for crap no reason theres simple things like avoiding a cc and jsut grabbing

cc grab gets predictable and is damaging to the player

 

[KosukeKGA]

this guy is right

listen to him

i believe in what he says because you don't need to take damage

don't cc grab

 

[Fletch]

This list is much better

Spoiler

except for Peach>Falcon

.

 

[Ryan-K]

cc grab sucks

u gotta eat a hit

never take a hit unless necessary

dont cc for crap no reason theres simple things like avoiding a cc and jsut grabbing

cc grab gets predictable and is damaging to the player

if you cc in your shield it is insurance against shield stabs plus it Dis you down if you dont get hit in your shield so you dont slide out of range and can grab

if you land with an aerial and say they dd back and hit you if you are holding down to cc you can grab them after, if you just try to grab you wont be ccing.

even if you take a hit alot of the time especially against spacies it's well worth it.

 

[BrawlLover]

yeah honestly

 

[Europhoria]

CC is beatable with... spacing? You'll have a tough time CC grabbing a Fox that b-air tips you even if you are Marth. In fact, Marth should have a tough time CC grabbing most of the higher tier characters; Fox with b-air, u-air and d-air (and potentially cross-up n-air), Falco's d-air (just too much stun) and b-air, Sheik's b-air, Peach's anything because of low lag and the fear of d-smash, Falcon with d-air or knee or a tipped b-air, Puff can cross up and space away with most moves although she risks f-smash... lower than that it becomes way more effective, depending on the character.

I'm not saying it's a bad technique at all, it's just significantly more effective against ground moves than aerials when your opponent can space well.

I don't know when you'd be trying to CC grab a down-air (with a few exceptions like Sheik, Peach, Game and Watch), I understand that doesn't work because of the stun. CC might work well for me specifically because I just guess n-air as the approach and I can react in time if I see the other person will approach with d-air. I'm mostly thinking of Fox here. But Marth/Sheik can CC to grab or down smash vs. a large majority of moves that aren't down-airs.

Spaced b-airs by a few of the characters you listed are able to be CC grabbed or CC to f-smash/d-tilt.

I'm not sure when you be CCing Fox's u-air to grab but at low % it's possible. But CC is so important for the metagame. Fox players now basically use n-air for everything, jab/tilt/dash attack spam is so important to be able to punish. For example Fox can d-tilt Sheik if he CCs a tilt.

The only way I can't CC grab Fox's n-air is if it comes out super late (he has to almost already on the ground... Cactuar showed this to me at Event 52). But it's so late that it just doesn't matter. Even for slower players who wouldn't be able to re-act in time you can still buffer into shield and roll/CC to downsmash or grab out of the waveshine.

 

[xXx-NoobKing-xXx]

Anyways, gunna **** EC @ CAST4, ****'s real.

 

[Europhoria]

That's .... nice? Good luck with that.
I also dunno how DK is so low on this list based on tournament results. Especially compared to both Marios and Luigi.

 

[BrawlLover]

yah srsly bra, good luck wit dat yo, but also sysly, cc grab i mean...camon, it's cool tha bra

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

CC:ing fox's uair is actually impossible if you manage to hit with both hits of the uair. Problem is that it's usually not possible to hit with both hits on a crouching opponent (theyre to short).
I'd rather just Dair, though. Drillshine beats CCing (unless you only hit with 1 hit of the dair)

wobbles made a very good point however: CCing is VERY beatable and it isn't broken in the way that there aren't ways around it.
[My point was that there are many situations where it would help to use it but people just don't. For example: anytime you're in lag you should be holding down and prepare to CCC. It won't always help, but if your opponent used an attack that wasn't strong enough to make your char fall over (such as a jab) you'll be able to punish them. And yet, you see stuff like that used routinely without being punished]

 

[choknater]

cc is just for when people mess up, and is most useful with defensive chars like peach and samus

 

[IShotLazer]

I agree with the Don't get hit philosophy of things however if you can deliver much more punishment than you the damage dealt to you I don't think it should be passed up.
CC is a good tech especially if you think it would help you land a lethal/near lethal finish.
I mean CC with fox is close to godliness against Marth while edge guarding.

 

[TheManaLord]

cc is good and situational but to think it affects the tier list is ridiculous.

 

[DrewB008]

cc grab makes it a lot easier to beat scrubs, but most good players can beat "mindless nairing foxes" anyway. cc when youre in the lag of a move or when people are jabbing you, but just sitting there crouching is pretty stupid as plenty of people will just not nair you.

also i dont think tournament results should be nor are the topmost basis for this tier list. obviously a lot of different people with varying understanding of the tournament scene voted a lot of different ways, so i cant speak for everyone, but i always thought that the tier list was based on who people thought were the best characters. obviously tournament matches are a good resource for determining this, but variables in how commonly used different characters are will affect placing if you use tournament results alone. an example would be that mario would be practically bottom tier, since ive seen like 3 high level tournament wins ever with him. clearly mario is a lot better than bottom tier though, so you cant just use tournament results.

 

[BrawlLover]

cc with samus is like the best ever, it'll win everytime yup

 

[Allin]

Tch links Grab COmbo is **** commoonnnnnnzzzz

But on topic nice tier list SBR

 

[BrawlLover]

what's sbr??

 

[choknater]

Smash Back Room

 

[OmegaXXII]

CC'ing is only good if you know how to and when to use it, it by no means has to affect the tier list at all whci I think would be absurd.

 

[Dark Hart]

what's sbr??

Smash Back Room

Too good.

10 char