Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[Fear The Meatball]

Falco and fox do have similar potential for mixups. The majority of mixups happen around a direct conflict, which is combos (you hit them), DI (they hit you), defense (they have positional advantage), offense (you have positional advantage). Tell me how fox has more advantages in those areas than falco.

It is silly to say falco has less auto combos, falco can shield pressure and aerials->shine and if the shine hits he can continue doing whatever, react, and still punish off the shine. Falco's shine combos into aerials on most characters until well over 100%.

You can't react in the same way when pressuring with fox's shine since there is such a small amount of hitstun from it. If you are doing nair-shine-nair-shine on their shield and they get hit by the shine, the best you can hope for is that they get hit by the nair or that they shield after the hitstun wears off.

Shine is used as a "don't CC/Shieldgrab me" move, not an approach. If you can tell me what move went before the shine in that combo you used as an example, maybe i could see how that was from an actual match. Heres one from a falco player: dair->shine or nair->shine. Whether they CC or shield that approach, you are safe, and on hit the moves combo.

How are falco's combos easier to DI out of? Last i checked, its a mistake to get hit by fox's uair. Theres nothing to SDI out of on falco's combos (since even if you get out of shine range he can do reverse utilt or dtilt).

 

[MTKO]

Falco and fox do have similar potential for mixups. The majority of mixups happen around a direct conflict, which is combos (you hit them), DI (they hit you), defense (they have positional advantage), offense (you have positional advantage). Tell me how fox has more advantages in those areas than falco.

It is silly to say falco has less auto combos, falco can shield pressure and aerials->shine and if the shine hits he can continue doing whatever, react, and still punish off the shine. Falco's shine combos into aerials on most characters until well over 100%.

You can't react in the same way when pressuring with fox's shine since there is such a small amount of hitstun from it. If you are doing nair-shine-nair-shine on their shield and they get hit by the shine, the best you can hope for is that they get hit by the nair or that they shield after the hitstun wears off.

Shine is used as a "don't CC/Shieldgrab me" move, not an approach. If you can tell me what move went before the shine in that combo you used as an example, maybe i could see how that was from an actual match. Heres one from a falco player: dair->shine or nair->shine. Whether they CC or shield that approach, you are safe, and on hit the moves combo.

How are falco's combos easier to DI out of? Last i checked, its a mistake to get hit by fox's uair. Theres nothing to SDI out of on falco's combos (since even if you get out of shine range he can do reverse utilt or dtilt).

Rhan and After Dawn pretty much summed it up.
Fox has the ability control a lot more space than all the other characters (through his tools and speed, and other factors), he has extremely great punishments (good gimps go along with this), recovery, tons of options to work with, priority, recovery, and has a wide variety of ways to kill each character effectively and quickly based on only one to a few mistakes.

Too bad fox's blaster doesn't have hit stun and can't be fired at a downward angle in the air. He'd be like Akuma. :D

 

[x After Dawn x]

Falco and fox do have similar potential for mixups. The majority of mixups happen around a direct conflict, which is combos (you hit them), DI (they hit you), defense (they have positional advantage), offense (you have positional advantage). Tell me how fox has more advantages in those areas than falco.

It is silly to say falco has less auto combos, falco can shield pressure and aerials->shine and if the shine hits he can continue doing whatever, react, and still punish off the shine. Falco's shine combos into aerials on most characters until well over 100%.

You can't react in the same way when pressuring with fox's shine since there is such a small amount of hitstun from it. If you are doing nair-shine-nair-shine on their shield and they get hit by the shine, the best you can hope for is that they get hit by the nair or that they shield after the hitstun wears off.

Shine is used as a "don't CC/Shieldgrab me" move, not an approach. If you can tell me what move went before the shine in that combo you used as an example, maybe i could see how that was from an actual match. Heres one from a falco player: dair->shine or nair->shine. Whether they CC or shield that approach, you are safe, and on hit the moves combo.

How are falco's combos easier to DI out of? Last i checked, its a mistake to get hit by fox's uair. Theres nothing to SDI out of on falco's combos (since even if you get out of shine range he can do reverse utilt or dtilt).

Falco and Fox are completely different characters, don't classify them as ditto characters like Link and Yink because they're different.

Fox is better for shield pressure in terms of speed so don't even bring that argument in. Both Fox's short hop and the length of his shff is shorter than Falco's, and his shine comes out at least 1 frame sooner than Falco's. Additionally, Fox is more mobile so it's easier for him to pressure all around a shield especially with shine bairs, and if his opponent rolls, Fox can take advantage of it better than Falco can.

It is most definitely true that a shine poke through shield benefits Falco better than Fox, but if you're just doing mindless shine dair / shine nair pressuring against the opponent's shield, you are likely not to get anything past a double hopped dair / nair off them, unless it's vs Fox where it pushes him up close enough to the ground to start a fresh combo. Fox's pressuring is more built on overwhelming his opponent by pushing him around and getting a nair off, which can lead to a grab or more nairs that overwhelm his opponent and are often unable to be DI'd away from at lower percents.

I don't know where you're getting that it's not possible for Fox not to approach with this because it's more valid than approaching this way with Falco because at least Fox can fake a nair approach and dash away if he knows he's going to get punished or grab, although I don't know why he would do this if he knows the opponent is baiting him (ie, a dashdancing Marth baiting Fox for a grab). If you know your opponent is going to cc your attack, then Fox uses dair -> grab to take advantage of that.

If you actually play competitive smash then you'll know that Falco doesn't have auto combos. His combos can be DI'd out of (like pillaring) or teched out of. Falco's downsmash combos only work off dair -> downsmash assuming they missed the tech, or dair, dair -> fsmash, which also assumes they miss the tech. Unless you're playing on FD, you can DI Falco's shine left or right to avoid being pillared. Fox can do this to DI to a platform to tech. Same thing goes for being uptilted repeatedly. And same thing goes for Falco's grabs on Fox (ie, backthrow to forwardthrow to another grab is not a real combo if you DI away). If you are playing on FD, in a Falco vs Fox matchup, then Fox's grab combos are just as valuable as Falco's pillars on that stage. Falco's kill moves also rely primarily on either bairs/nairs, dairs, or fsmash most of the time. In the case of bairs/nairs and fsmash, you can DI upright or upleft to live longer, but Fox relies a lot on upsmash and uair for killing...good luck DI'ing those.

Hope that clears some things up, sorry if I said something incorrect (it's 2:17 AM). I'm not saying Fox is by miles better than Falco, I'm just explaining some reasons why he's either on par or slightly, slightly better than him since a lot of people are questioning why he's at the very top and assuming it's purely due to theorycrafting.

 

[CloneHat]

his shine comes out at least 1 frame sooner than Falco's.

Didn't we disprove this in like 2004? Falco's jump is slower, making JC shines more delayed.

 

[rhan]

Falco and Fox are completely different characters, don't classify them as ditto characters like Link and Yink because they're different.

Link=/=Young Link. They're also both way to different.

Matter of fact every "clone" character is extremely different then their counter part.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I wouldn't say Doc and Mario are *extremely* different, playstyle wise.

Same with Pika and Pichu.

 

[SleepyK]

i guess those two are mostly the exceptions.

 

[Fletch]

I wouldn't say Doc and Mario are *extremely* different, playstyle wise.

Mostly agree.

Same with Pika and Pichu.

Not as much, given Pichu's self-damaging nature. The rest of the clones all play very differently though.

 

[Fear The Meatball]

Falco and Fox are completely different characters, don't classify them as ditto characters like Link and Yink because they're different.

I have never said this, stop putting words in my mouth.

Fox is better for shield pressure in terms of speed so don't even bring that argument in. Both Fox's short hop and the length of his shff is shorter than Falco's,

But both of them have holes in either the beginning or the end (or both), therefore they both have the mixups of late and early attacks to bait grabs/attacks/rolls/wds.

and his shine comes out at least 1 frame sooner than Falco's.

Uhh they both come out on frame 1, thanks.

Additionally, Fox is more mobile so it's easier for him to pressure all around a shield especially with shine bairs, and if his opponent rolls, Fox can take advantage of it better than Falco can.

True, but falco has a similar method. For one, his longer air time allows him to have more aerial mobility than fox. For what fox has in ground speed, falco makes up for with range and lasers.

It is most definitely true that a shine poke through shield benefits Falco better than Fox, but if you're just doing mindless shine dair / shine nair pressuring against the opponent's shield, you are likely not to get anything past a double hopped dair / nair off them, unless it's vs Fox where it pushes him up close enough to the ground to start a fresh combo. Fox's pressuring is more built on overwhelming his opponent by pushing him around and getting a nair off, which can lead to a grab or more nairs that overwhelm his opponent and are often unable to be DI'd away from at lower percents.

Not sure why this was included at all. Obviously were talking about high level players who are not mindless with their pressuring.
High level players rarely get overwhelmed, especially without mixups. They know their methods of beating certain mixups and don't panic just because some random fox is pushing buttons on their shield.

I don't know where you're getting that it's not possible for Fox not to approach with this because it's more valid than approaching this way with Falco because at least Fox can fake a nair approach and dash away if he knows he's going to get punished or grab, although I don't know why he would do this if he knows the opponent is baiting him (ie, a dashdancing Marth baiting Fox for a grab). If you know your opponent is going to cc your attack, then Fox uses dair -> grab to take advantage of that.

First off, use a period. Separate your sentences. Thanks.

What i said in my last post was that falco's approach moves (nair and dair) link into his shine, and then i said fox's approach moves (nair and dair) don't in the current metagame because dair is so commonly SDI'd that you would be lucky to drill to grab someone.

If you actually play competitive smash

Woah, whats with the hostility? You don't know me, don't start condescending or making assumptions about my skill.

then you'll know that Falco doesn't have auto combos.

Wat? Here, i did a youtube search for "mango falco" and clicked the first link. Here it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRfXYvLFYIo&feature=fvst In the first 10 seconds mango does a 50% combo. Are you telling me that wasn't automatic?

His combos can be DI'd out of (like pillaring) or teched out of. Falco's downsmash combos only work off dair -> downsmash assuming they missed the tech, or dair, dair -> fsmash, which also assumes they miss the tech. Unless you're playing on FD, you can DI Falco's shine left or right to avoid being pillared. Fox can do this to DI to a platform to tech. Same thing goes for being uptilted repeatedly. And same thing goes for Falco's grabs on Fox (ie, backthrow to forwardthrow to another grab is not a real combo if you DI away). If you are playing on FD, in a Falco vs Fox matchup, then Fox's grab combos are just as valuable as Falco's pillars on that stage. Falco's kill moves also rely primarily on either bairs/nairs, dairs, or fsmash most of the time. In the case of bairs/nairs and fsmash, you can DI upright or upleft to live longer, but Fox relies a lot on upsmash and uair for killing...good luck DI'ing those.

What about falco's utilt/shine -> dair (onto platform) -> tech chase dair -> followup (shine waveland on the top platform if they DI that way or spike them off the stage if they DI'd that way, or other things based on the positioning). Last time I checked falco can stand under a platform and techchase with a shine waveland and then follow his combos from there. He can also use dair and on reaction utilt the missed tech (into combos) or do whatever punish he wants to the tech choise (fsmash, dsmash and dair are common options).

Falco's #1 kill move is the dair. If the opponent attempts to escape the combo by going offstage and falco can still reach him (shine, dair, utilt and falco's other combo moves link into aerials regardless of DI until at least 100% on most characters) then falco gets an early kill. If they don't DI that way, he always has the option to bair/nair and force the edgeguard. All of falco's moves have more knockback that fox's.

Also, fyi, it is quite easy to SDI fox's uair and good luck usmashing falco. Theres a reason most of the stock fox gets in the matchup is by edgeguarding.

Hope that clears some things up, sorry if I said something incorrect (it's 2:17 AM). I'm not saying Fox is by miles better than Falco, I'm just explaining some reasons why he's either on par or slightly, slightly better than him since a lot of people are questioning why he's at the very top and assuming it's purely due to theorycrafting.

Its ok, i hope my post has cleared up the things you were misinformed about. At this reasonable hour of the day, we can all think more clearly and realize that realistically fox isn't as viable to win a tournament as falco is.

 

[choknater]

doc and mario are way diff lol

mario has the speed to be more aggressive but has less finishers. his fair is very viable, and his faster jab can make his approaches safer

doc has stronger hitboxes and doesn't rely as much on combos. his jab hitstun leads to more stuff, such as jab dsmash. he can afford to be defensive and wd back, and pill trajectory has totally different uses compared to fireball

just totally diff lol. when you see scorpion master and shroomed at the same tournament, you can really tell the diffs between the chars

 

[MTKO]

@Fear the Meatball
It appears as if you're only looking at small situational conflicts when comparing Fox and Falco, as well as comparing their comboing ability. Unfortunately you're not delving into the other aspects of these two characters and only trying to make an argument for a few small things you think Falco is better at.

In my opinion, when this game has reached a very mature level (maybe many years from now, if it's not reach it yet or close to it) Fox is still going to be on the top, even with all the other changes to the list. He clearly has the most potential to cover all the elements in this game more so than the other characters.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Falco sucks guys he loses to everyone.

Just CC F-smash all his laser approaches and he can't do anything.

 

[choknater]

you're lying

but if ur ganon

u can just jab if he gets hasty

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

This tier list really ignores the fact that there is a player playing the character and that that player has to think and pressing buttons takes work. My football coach used to say "Mistakes happen when you get tired". We would run laps and then he would line us in our stances and try to have us go on various snaps. If anyone messed up we all ran another lap. I remember thinking, "i'll never mess up something so easy" but then, once in over 50 snaps, it was my turn. This same effect happens to players when they have been playing hard matches, some people more than others but it still takes its toll.

Idk he kinda has a point here. I mean, regardless of theory crafting, fox literally has not won a national in a long time. But fox does have the highest rating on the CRL which kinda shows that even though he isn't winning nationals he is doing well on a smaller scale and always has the potential to make it far.

A tier list is a list of characters ranked best to worst in their likelihood to perform well in a tournament setting in the near future based on recent, relevant tournament results. We then separate characters at statistically significant gaps to be grouped with their relative equals, and those groupings are called "tiers". A tier list is, in essence, a "prediction" list as to how any given character will fare in a competitive setting. We naturally assume top level of play.

So i guess by the definition of this tier list, fox does have the ability to perform well, but i agree that it should be taken into account that in the most stressful situations fox is at a disadvantage because of the physical toll. In high stress situations I like to convert back to a simpler style in order to avoid messing up tech skill, but a sheik, puff, peach or marth player under the same amount of stress would be less disadvantaged since they can cover space and pressure via spacing and with minimal button inputs.

idk, just my 0.02

 

[CaptainRanD0]

Idk he kinda has a point here. I mean, regardless of theory crafting, fox literally has not won a national in a long time.

Jman won DGDTJ.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

dgdtj isnt a national....

 

[choknater]

i'd still count it lol. you have mango jman hbox and cali's best all at one tournament. national enough to me.

ec nationals are usually all of ec with a few wc. this was all of wc with a few ec.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Not as much, given Pichu's self-damaging nature. The rest of the clones all play very differently though.

Pichu's self-damaging doesn't make as much of a difference as you'd think. All of his best moves don't have it, and he dies so early that most Pichu players start to ignore it at around 50% (KO percent against most characters) anyway.

doc and mario are way diff lol

mario has the speed to be more aggressive but has less finishers. his fair is very viable, and his faster jab can make his approaches safer

doc has stronger hitboxes and doesn't rely as much on combos. his jab hitstun leads to more stuff, such as jab dsmash. he can afford to be defensive and wd back, and pill trajectory has totally different uses compared to fireball

just totally diff lol. when you see scorpion master and shroomed at the same tournament, you can really tell the diffs between the chars

I wasn't saying they are identical, but I'd say a Doc main could instantly use Mario (assuming they knew all the changed mechanics) even if they had never used them before, and vice versa.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Since when does a regional tournament that 1 or 2 players from the other coast go to count as a national? DGDTJ how many states in EC repped? How many MW states? How many entrants? I thought it was just over 100. Thats the size of a MW regional.

 

[Dark Hart]

National or not, it was a fairly large tourney where top3 was spacies, and that hadn't happened in a long time, let alone a Fox ditto GF

 

[tarheeljks]

# of entrants is rather meaningless. well not meaningless, but a volatile indicator and is ultimately a proxy for field depth (as is the term "national"). if you think the field was not deep enough say that, don't say it only had 100 players, or w/e-- that's all misleading. there were notable players absent from gsg2 (e.g. dr peepee and m2k) but you can look at the results and see that there were very good players in attendance. compare the bracket placings from gsg2 to rom 3

singles:
1: jman
2: lucky
3: zhu
4: hbox
5: scorp
5: fly amanita
7: falcomist
7: s2j
9: SS
9: macd
9: HugS
9: taj
13: dajuan
13: swiftbass
13: sfat
13: light
17: lovage
17: HMW
17: axe
17: hyuga
17: westballz
17: TAI
17: choknater
17: bob$
25: L
25: mr ganondorf
25: scar
25: gg7
25: ppu
25: replicate
25: darrell
25: tang
33: violence
33: mooninite
33: myko
33: azn lep
33: mackadotious
33: rubyiris
33: pockyD
33: nugz
33: alan
33: coolkid
33: gishnak
33: sword saint
33: bluefoxXT
33: zeldafreak
33: jpeg image
33: hydro kirby

1: Dr. PeePee
2: m2k
3: kirbykaze
4: jesus
5: hbox
5: lucky
7: darc
7: kayle
9: mango
9: macD
9: eggm
9: hugs
13: chops
13: rockcroc
13: hax
13: G$
17: kage
17: chillin
17: waffles
17: sion
17: swift
17: unknown
17: darrell
17: ben
25: tope
25: tec0
25: g-reg
25: stricNYN3
25: DJ nintendo
25: banks
25: jesiahTEG
25: winston
33: lovage
33: sol
33: hazz
33: scar
33: druggedfox
33: Dooooooooooooooooooooo
33: $mike
33: thorn
33: husband
33: hugQ
33: everlasting yayuhz
33: pakman
33: ky
33: d1
33: nando
33: KevM

not arguing that gsg2's field is as exactly deep as rom's b/c ultimately that is beside the point-- it was a very strong tournament. 6 of the top 9 finishers from rom3-- jman(4), hbox(5) lucky(5), mango(9), macd(9), hugs(9) finished top 9 at gsg2-- jman (1), lucky (2), hbox (4), mango (5), macd (9), hugs (9).

also, note that zhu finished 3rd and silentspectre 9th at gsg2 and that there are other players outside the top 9 with recent high placings at nationals such as axe, shroomed-- both top 10 at pound-- and then players like lovage and s2j, taj. i've prob forgotten people, and i know i've left people off (there are some hidden bosses and not so well known players on wc who are quite legit) ,which only speaks to my point.

similar arguments can likely be made for other tournaments, and that's fine. this field was still legit. if you're brushing it off, you're largely doing so because pp/m2k were absent not b/c it only had ~100 people (don't remember the # tbh). there appears to be a meaningful representation of elite players in this field and it seems to be widely recognized that wc is pretty deep. yeah, i'm biased, but am i wrong

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

So all those tournaments in 2009 where mango and zhu where chilling on the EC, those count as nationals? I mean, its two top placers from the biggest national of the time (genesis) and they are both from the WC therefore when they play against the high players from the EC in tournament those tournaments were nationals. When i look at those results, i see WC regional with 2 EC players who came for some "easy money".

Where are the top 3 from rom3?

6 of the top 9 finishers from rom3-- jman(4), hbox(5) lucky(5), mango(9), macd(9), hugs(9) finished top 9 at gsg2-- jman (1), lucky (2), hbox (4), mango (5), macd (9), hugs (9).

Looks like the bottom placers just slid up with the lack of the absolute top players.


But really, i guess it doesn't really matter. Whether you want to classify DGDTJ as a national or not is your call and is really besides the point.

 

[choknater]

it is a national rofl. cmons now

100+ is freakin big.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

The last SMYM was over 100 people and was only midwest and south.

 

[tarheeljks]

totally agree that whether you want to call it a national is beside the point-- were there enough good players there is the real question.


and again with "over 100 people." so what? how deep was the field? discounting results b/c dr peepee there is one thing, essentially throwing them out is another

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

The tournaments with EVERY best player, the winning character has not been fox since 06/07

 

[GK_]

Why is Pika-chan not top tier? I mean, he's obviously top tier.

 

[SleepyK]

physical toll is a weird term. i think a more accurate term would insinuate not that there is a draining effect but a much larger chance of them making a technical error.

LIKE TECHNICAL POOPBUTT

 

[SleepyK]

True, but falco has a similar method. For one, his longer air time allows him to have more aerial mobility than fox. For what fox has in ground speed, falco makes up for with range and lasers.

please explain this part, i'm not sure what you mean here

Falco's #1 kill move is the dair.

it's actually his side-b, pls ok

If the opponent attempts to escape the combo by going offstage and falco can still reach him (shine, dair, utilt and falco's other combo moves link into aerials regardless of DI until at least 100% on most characters) then falco gets an early kill. If they don't DI that way, he always has the option to bair/nair and force the edgeguard. All of falco's moves have more knockback that fox's.

it's not as cut and dry as you are putting it. keep in mind that smash is incredibly dynamic. a lot of the setups for dair offstage are either situational or rely on the opponent DIing towards the falco, which "good" players should know not to do.

iirc there was a post that kirbykaze (might have been in the MBR, i don't really remember) made that highlighted one of falco's weaknesses - his lack of a reliable kill move. his fsmash isn't a strong killer (assuming they DI well) and bair isn't much of one either. just some thoughts to think about.

Also, fyi, it is quite easy to SDI fox's uair and good luck usmashing falco. Theres a reason most of the stock fox gets in the matchup is by edgeguarding.

but he does have a couple of really good and easy setups for it. i can name two immediately off the top of my head.

Its ok, i hope my post has cleared up the things you were misinformed about. At this reasonable hour of the day, we can all think more clearly and realize that realistically fox isn't as viable to win a tournament as falco is.

yeah i'm entertaining the idea in my head. falco's margin for technical poopbutt (tech skill error) is a little lower and his "safe game" is safer than fox's because of that. hm.
i still think fox is the better character, but this is an interesting viewpoint

 

[makoforce]

my top 5 tier list feel free to comment
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
1. Falco- Well first off falco has been winning the most lately, there are more efficient falco's than foxes and his whole metagame isnt based off of super theory bros melee.

Pro's: Combos, Lasers, Dair, Shine, mobility, theres more i cant think of lol
Con's: Recovery, Gets Comboed, Easily edgegaurded, Chainthrows, common MU
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
2. Sheik- This should be no suprise. sheik was number 1 numerous times before and as stated above there are more efficent sheiks than anyone that was above her besides falco.

Pro's: Edgeguarding, Needles, Chainthrows, Guaranteed Comboes, mobile
Con's: Lightweight, Common MU
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
3. Fox- The enigma of speed. His fall from top might stir many arguements, but really there has only been one fox main to actually do good (Jman) and has only won one national since like '06-'07. Sure he looks good on paper nobody plays like that not even Dark. IMO Fox just hasnt proven himself lately.

Pro's: Grab combos, Shine/Shine comboes, shine spike, great killer power, great recovery, fast, very mobile
Con's: Gets comboed hard, chainthrows, easy to edgeguard, laser doesnt stun
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
4. Marth- The ruleset supports this guy more than ever, he only does bad on one neutral (Dreamland) and even thats debatable. He consistanly places top 5 in tournys and nationals. The only thing that might keep him down are his performances on CP's and Sheik and he has even or slight advantages over the top 5 besides Sheik.

Pro's: Range, TIPPERS, best edgeguarder in game, chainthrows, great grab game in general, very mobile
Con's: Floaty, common MU, hard to kill without tipper or edgeguard, very vulnerable between attacks
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
5. Jigglypuff- Her placement has always been debeatable. I mean on one hand there is only one person that plays her via H-Box and she does have many rest set ups and has great walling, spacinng and edgeguarding ability. But on the other hand she loses to everyone of the top 5 except maybe Falco. She show's no low tier ****** ability. She is very vulnerable to camping because she her mobility isnt very quick like marth on the other hand. She dosent have much range on anything that isnt B-air. She is only a real threat on Brinstar and Dreamland. It's more I have to say on puff but it's not coming to me right now......

Pro's: OHKO on rest, edgeguard, best recovery, bair has good range, not so common MU
Con's: Piss poor range, Very easy to kill, not many good stages

 

[makoforce]

sorry double post

 

[choknater]

man, jman's not only the poster boy of east coast, but also for the character of fox.

i'll root for him always, even though i don't like his playstyle that much.

 

[Strong Badam]

sheik weighs more than fox, falco, and marth.

 

[makoforce]

sheik weighs more than fox, falco, and marth.

really? sheik seems more floaty than all of them except marth

 

[Strong Badam]

falling speed != weight.

 

[x After Dawn x]

^ what strong bad said. jigglypuff actually weighs more than pichu, however she still almost always dies earlier because floatiness also dictates the vertical aspect of knockback

 

[choknater]

what does != mean

 

[x After Dawn x]

it's supposed to mean =/=

 

[choknater]

ah i see, thanks.

 

[KirbyKaze]

my top 5 tier list feel free to comment

I would normally put more effort and look for all the reasons a post like this is wrong but I'll just do this instead: Puff has bad range...?

Falco is homosexual and really powerful even though he loses to every good character and you can beat him by CC F-smashing his lasers with every character in the game.