Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[ChivalRuse]

What are you talking about with CCing lasers to f-smash? Falco's strength is his ability to attack whenever he wants, which means he can bait and punish that stuff easily.

Or were you just ing?

 

[x After Dawn x]

he was

ing

 

[SleepyK]

he's talking about falco lasering in too close.

you can trick falco into lasering too close by dropping your shield and CCing the laser or WDing in and CCing the laser etc

 

[x After Dawn x]

that trick doesn't allow "any character" to "beat him"

that would imply pichu has a chance at beating something

 

[SleepyK]

one trick to rule them all

 

[Grim Tuesday]

that trick doesn't allow "any character" to "beat him"

that would imply pichu has a chance at beating something

Of course he has a chance of beating something, Pichu can win by only using Nair, you know.

 

[x After Dawn x]

...i see what you did there

he would be proud if he wasn't banned with 6 permapoints

 

[Strong Badam]

^ what strong bad said. jigglypuff actually weighs more than pichu, however she still almost always dies earlier because floatiness also dictates the vertical aspect of knockback

More specifically, Jigglypuff's higher weight (by 5) decreases the knockback/launch speed of the attack, however her "gravity," an attribute in the character file that is subtracted each frame from Y-velocity until terminal negative velocity is reached, is 0.064 while Pichu's is 0.11, and therefore the launch speed of the attack decrements more quickly.
Another way of thinking of gravity is falling speed acceleration. Fox's is the highest, though he still doesn't live as long vertically as Captain Falcon because of Falcon's higher weight.

 

[ChivalRuse]

he's talking about falco lasering in too close.

you can trick falco into lasering too close by dropping your shield and CCing the laser or WDing in and CCing the laser etc

But an alert/cautious Falco will just laser -> shield and punish oos.

 

[MTKO]

But an alert/cautious Falco will just laser -> shield and punish oos.

If you're CCing the laser, then just wait for Falco to get in the right range to do a grab or smash, if he's expecting the hit and shields, just grab him.

 

[SleepyK]

But an alert/cautious Falco will just laser -> shield and punish oos.

If you're CCing the laser, then just wait for Falco to get in the right range to do a grab of smash, if he's expecting the hit and shields, just grab him.

and this is the problem with theorycrafting

 

[x After Dawn x]

falco shouldn't even be approaching within hitbox distance with a laser...it works sometimes but it's also asking to get grabbed or punished. probably one of the worst ways to approach a campy opponent. falcon can also side B under it and get a free lead-in that way.

 

[makoforce]

I would normally put more effort and look for all the reasons a post like this is wrong but I'll just do this instead: Puff has bad range...?

Falco is homosexual and really powerful even though he loses to every good character and you can beat him by CC F-smashing his lasers with every character in the game.

puff does has poor range what move has good range beside bair, fair, and pound. what good character does falco lose to?

 

[x After Dawn x]

^ i don't know if you noticed but one of the top 5 players in the world spams bair with puff and wins against nearly everyone lol

maybe you're referring to stage control and not hitbox range? because puff's bair hitbox is ****ing ridiculous, if you haven't seen it yet.

also falco loses to puff and i've heard from amsah / others that he loses slightly to sheik. he also only goes even with marth, ICs, peach, and roughly even with fox.

 

[makoforce]

^ i don't know if you noticed but one of the top 5 players in the world spams bair with puff and wins against nearly everyone lol

maybe you're referring to stage control and not hitbox range? because puff's bair hitbox is ****ing ridiculous, if you haven't seen it yet.

also falco loses to puff and i've heard from amsah / others that he loses slightly to sheik. he also only goes even with marth, ICs, peach, and roughly even with fox.

i said bair has good range but thats about it. mango says marth beats puff its just good puffs that make the MU's look lopsided but not everyone is a top player

 

[SleepyK]

but bair is pretty much jpuff's range

 

[x After Dawn x]

mango also says marth is the best character in the game so...

 

[MTKO]

^ i don't know if you noticed but one of the top 5 players in the world spams bair with puff and wins against nearly everyone lol

maybe you're referring to stage control and not hitbox range? because puff's bair hitbox is ****ing ridiculous, if you haven't seen it yet.

also falco loses to puff and i've heard from amsah / others that he loses slightly to sheik. he also only goes even with marth, ICs, peach, and roughly even with fox.

Wait, are you saying Puff loses/has a disadvantage against Sheik? Because as of right now I'm under the impression that it's quite the opposite. It seems to me that Puff has an advantage over Sheik. Not an enormous one, but more than a small one.

 

[SleepyK]

the metagame is now changed forever

 

[choknater]

i think ice climbers beats puff 55-45 hehe

 

[SleepyK]

rats, bionic ruining my fun.

 

[Crooked Crow]

People think Sheik slightly beats Falco? Really?

 

[x After Dawn x]

Wait, are you saying Puff loses/has a disadvantage against Sheik? Because as of right now I'm under the impression that it's quite the opposite. It seems to me that Puff has an advantage over Sheik. Not an enormous one, but more than a small one.

when the hell did i ever say that? i was talking about falco being evenish with sheik but some people thinking he loses very slightly to sheik

People think Sheik slightly beats Falco? Really?

yes, what's wrong with that? i wouldn't disagree with a matchup being 55-45 for sheik if that's what it is

 

[MTKO]

when the hell did i ever say that? i was talking about falco being evenish with sheik but some people thinking he loses very slightly to sheik



yes, what's wrong with that? i wouldn't disagree with a matchup being 55-45 for sheik if that's what it is

Sorry, I must have misread what you said/had a brain issue and mixed up what you were saying.

And I also agree with it being slightly in Sheik's favor. I feel that it has a lot to do with the edge game in this match up. Sheik can cover all the options on the edge with Falco and can get you the early gimp.

 

[KirbyKaze]

puff does has poor range what move has good range beside bair, fair, and pound. what good character does falco lose to?

I'm trolling with Falco comments. Kind of.

Puff's range is a mix of her Bair and her aerial mobility, which are both good. You don't need great range on 10 moves if you have a few that suffice in all situations. Since Puff has a deal like that going on, she's fine with her handful of ranged moves.

^ i don't know if you noticed but one of the top 5 players in the world spams bair with puff and wins against nearly everyone lol

maybe you're referring to stage control and not hitbox range? because puff's bair hitbox is ****ing ridiculous, if you haven't seen it yet.

also falco loses to puff and i've heard from amsah / others that he loses slightly to sheik. he also only goes even with marth, ICs, peach, and roughly even with fox.

Amsah's opinion on matches (from what I remember in the MBR) changes periodically. I remember him saying Falco might beat Sheik, but he seemed wishy-washy about it at the time and I'm not sure he's changed his mind since that (it was a while ago; I was still MBR at the time lol). M2K says Falco obliterates Sheik. I've heard "It's a close MU" from others. I've heard Sheik ***** Falco from pretty much every Falco in the universe, but a large chunk of them are also convinced that Falcon and Doc are complicated, difficult matchups because Falco only beats them 51-49 or so.

At any rate, I've heard the arguments at least 60 times so I don't feel like running through them again. Yes, Sheik can gimp Falco. Yes, Falco can shoot lasers at Sheik and do gay edgeguard loops (people that cite ground-tech as an answer will be shot). Who wins? I dunno.

i said bair has good range but thats about it. mango says marth beats puff its just good puffs that make the MU's look lopsided but not everyone is a top player

Because of that one ranged move she operates as a high-range character in a lot of situations (and matchups and whatnot). This is partially because her one ranged move is augmented by her very good aerial mobility, that gives said single ranged move a lot more versatility in terms of how Puff can use it. I get the feeling you're isolating single traits of characters and making claims based off those traits, without taking into account how those traits interact with the other properties and whatever of that character. Don't do that; characters are a combination of traits. One could easily say Falco is terrible because his run speed is terrible but that's silly; it doesn't address the fact that he has tools that help cover up his dashing issues, etc.

Mango's claim that Marth beats Puff is irrelevant to a discussion of whether or not Puff has decent range unless you connect it somehow.

 

[x After Dawn x]

I don't think M2K's opinion really matters on any matchup at this point. He's switched up his personal tier list many times, and his opinions on character viability and matchups change every time he loses [badly] to someone. Example being the fact that he thinks Puff beats Marth 60-40 or 65-35 (can't remember), thinks Puff is the best in the game, thinks Falco is second best in the game, and I would presume after losing so much to both Mango and PP's Falco, he would think that Marth also loses badly to Falco when he doesn't.

Not trying to hate on Jason or anything, I love the guy, but anybody who has kept up with him knows that he johns a LOT and bases his opinions of matchups and characters too much on his past history with just a couple players or so.

 

[Beat!]

Am I the only one who thinks Falco beats Puff? Not by a large margin, but I still think he wins the MU.

 

[Biglard]

It's funny how, even when KK makes mad serious posts, I just can't take them seriously because of his signature.

I imagine the girl on the left saying the content of the post, RB saying that her friend is perfectly right (with a trollhead though, because she's on the left), and the girl on the right wondering what she's doing on SWF.

I know this has nothing to do with the tier list at all, but a lot of people on this thread already said that Falco's mu against everyone, including himself, is 40-60, so my opinion on it might not be relevant.

 

[x After Dawn x]

Am I the only one who thinks Falco beats Puff? Not by a large margin, but I still think he wins the MU.

play a good puff on your level and you'll see why it isn't. even at top level, the only falco that can consistently take out top level puffs is peepee, but he beasts everybody now anyway. i hope mango goes to genesis 2 and actually tries, i'd like to see if peepee could take #1 then.

also, am i the only one who finds it hard to describe falco's matchups in numbers? maybe it's just because i've played him for so long that i have no reactions or ability to express anything that involves him but it just seems like every top tier matchup for him is "roughly even"

 

[SleepyK]

well, he's kind of a good character.

 

[x After Dawn x]

yeah just a lil bit

 

[KirbyKaze]

stuff about M2K and matchups

The only point I hoped to make was that, given the large amount of variation amongst the top players regarding their feelings on that matchup, I don't think going by "Top pro says the ratio is <X>" is really all that useful here because you'll find a very broad spectrum depending on which pro you pick.

M2K is convenient because he's an extreme. But it's not like his reasons are totally ridiculous either. Falco has good follows on Sheik, good priority above and below him, and a good edgeguard loop. Given how Sheik's recovery works and where her vulnerabilities are when she tries to escape combos, those are good traits to have when fighting her...

Similarly, Sheik has the range to flirt with a lasering Falco, a knockdown throw, and the ability to cover a lot of options when she goes for gimps or edgeguards (which are good traits to have vs Falco). And her OOS game is reasonable enough.

The rest just boils down to how you weigh those traits against one another...

 

[Deleted member]

a good bit of it is probably bias from me. i told m2k that falco ***** sheik for like 4 straight years and he thought it was even until only very recently. i guess no one "*****" sheik except ice climbers in the strictest sense but it's still really stupid when a character based on basically grabs can get shined and combo ***** so badly when her primary play style so has little reward in comparison. i'm pretty sure falco combos sheik better than he combos like any other character or even other garbage mid weights like yoshi.

 

[x After Dawn x]

and it's only very recently that his sheik hasn't been fairing well at all against dr. peepee

and btw, sheik doesn't get comboed harder by falco than any other character. even not counting bad, fat characters like bowser or dk, he combos fox and falcon better

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

idk, falco combos sheik REALLY well. Like, really really really well.

 

[Beat!]

Falco combos most chars really well.

It's kinda what he does.

 

[choknater]

samus combos doc really well

 

[x After Dawn x]

sheik combos pikachu really well

 

[choknater]

the grand finals of my first tournament (tg6) had a 0-100 sheik vs sheik cg in finals

 

[x After Dawn x]

ahahahaha i can't imagine what it would sound like to hear dozens of boos for like a minute straight