Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[x After Dawn x]

sure kid, sure

 

[Jordaash]

How old are you? I'm 22.

 

[x After Dawn x]

I'm a 40 year old virgin who lives in my mom's basement programming games all day errrday.

 

[MTKO]

So anyone up for a discussion that's relevant to the thread's topic?

 

[rhan]

@rhan:
NM, you're right. Marth is impossible to hit. He's the best character.

He's not the best by any means. But he's by no means as terrible as you're describing him.

 

[Deleted member]

I still think Marth is the best character.

If you're going to cite your age for a measure of maturity, try acting mature to back it. Don't embarrass your peers.

rhan if you don't understand marth then don't pretend that you do. no talented marth would use fair as a standard approach, and l-canceling doesn't solve landing lag punishment.

 

[MTKO]

I still think Marth is the best character.

If you're going to cite your age for a measure of maturity, try acting mature to back it. Don't embarrass your peers.

rhan if you don't understand marth then don't pretend that you do. no talented marth would use fair as a standard approach, and l-canceling doesn't solve landing lag punishment.

Umbreon, I've read your posts before and you seem like you have some really great points. I'd really like to hear your thoughts on why you think Marth is the best character. It seems like when I ask questions like this in here I don't get much of an in depth response. If at all possible do you think you could give some examples?

I main Marth and I'd really like for him at some point to be considered the best character. As of right now I do agree that Fox is the best for the current metagame, but I think there's a lot of stuff that could be added to Marths metagame that could make him great and even the best.

Edit: by the way, I'm definitely not a high level player and since I very rarely get to play against more than a couple of the same people who are around my level (noob level :D ), most of my very limited knowledge comes from theory and not experience. So hopefully my posts aren't completely crap lol.

 

[KirbyKaze]

L canceling says hi.

If the Marth is slow then he's either not using L cancels and/or not using the frames to auto cancel his moves.

L-cancel =/= unpunishable status.

You still have to deal with how his sword functions, which is in arcs. His move inherently have more startup time even if his frames and autocancels and whatever say they're fast; this is because he has to wait for his moves to reach a certain point for them to be reasonably placed to protect him. Toss in the fact that he's airborne for longer than most characters (which is not necessarily desirable, particularly if you're trying to abuse autocancels and whatnot) and you've got hidden lag you never knew you had!

Also worth noting is that you have to put delays in spots to achieve certain autocancels and whatever. If you're trying to be "fast" and do a bunch of actions with reduced landing lag, you're just putting the empty time elsewhere. You've got lag either way.

Marth is slower than the other top tiers except Puff. He doesn't have Puff's aerial mobility to fall back on, though.

 

[KAOSTAR]

I completely agree with Umbreon and Kirby Kaze. You see marth getting hit all the ****ing time, I always cringe when I hear ppl talk about MUs involving marth vs low tiers because they all seem to act as if the marth MU isnt that bad...which its not terrible(still solid win for marth)....but thats truly only because low tiers play a specific Marth MU while the marth players typically no matter how good seem to always play the standard space, combo react with fair game.

except I dont think Marth is the best character, but thats the least important part anyway.

 

[Deleted member]

Umbreon, I've read your posts before and you seem like you have some really great points. I'd really like to hear your thoughts on why you think Marth is the best character. It seems like when I ask questions like this in here I don't get much of an in depth response. If at all possible do you think you could give some examples?

Well, for me it's mostly a matter of dumbing the game down as much as possible. Generally as you get better your characters gain a variety of extra depth, but their best strategies also become that much stronger as you refine them. Towards the top level of play for the game, the top tier characters tend to balance out very nicely with Fox Falco Sheik Marth Peach Falcon and Jigglypuff all being viable and about equally threatening. I think that Marth's linearized play of dashdance grab upthrow profit is stronger than most things out of those characters like Peach Falcon Fox etc. I think pretty much only Falco can match Marth for his raw "goodness" I suppose you'd call it, but then I think Marth has a marginally advantageous match on Falco too.

Marth tends to be such that he wants to approach air to air as much as possible and on ground as little as possible. I think almost all of his entire ground game becomes funneled to DD grab upthrow to get an opponent in the air, at which point Marth should pretty much win any air to air exchange sans Jigglypuff.

The odd part I see is that newer Marths tend to dashdance very poorly into forward throw, which is both extremely risky prior to the grab and effectively harmless after the throw most of the time. They also tend to use shield quite a bit, but as KK already pointed out Marth is relatively slow compared to other top tiers and wants nothing to do with blocking. He's generally much better off dodging the attacks entirely or aggressively attacking the opponents attacks because his range and disjointed hotbox means he has a very good chance to win the exchange. Marth is the only character I can think of where you can hit with an attack and still get punished for it very strongly because you hit with the wrong part of the attack. It's also extremely dangerous to attack from the air to the ground opponent at almost any time. Newer marths also rarely attack because they feel that the character "can't commit" with 100% safety, which is true in some cases but those cases never get properly analyzed so it was apparently made into a generalization some time ago, and newer Marths pretty much have no pressure game at all. The combination mix of misplays makes the character much weaker than he actually is.

 

[Beat!]

Marth is awesome

 

[Jordaash]

He's not the best by any means. But he's by no means as terrible as you're describing him.

I wasn't describing him as terrible. Everyone knows Marth is really good, Ken took care of that a long time ago. Someone asked why he wasn't higher, so i was explaining his weaknesses. Only he apparently doesn't have any.

 

[Beat!]

No one said that. Stop being butthurt because people disagree with you.

 

[x After Dawn x]

Yes, stop implying people said things that they didn't. Your reasoning for Marth's weakness wasn't even valid in the first place.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Marth's dash dance to up throw is pretty good versus characters.

Pressuring with Marth is tricky. Though I expect Cactuar to come in and be like, "Nah, it's so easy. Swing your sword! " to refute that. But oh well.

Sheik's Fair is a good move.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Haha Cactuar is one of the coolest smashers Ive ever met. He is a pro *** ***** at bein pro.
/polejock

 

[Deleted member]

Marth's dash dance to up throw is pretty good versus characters.

Pressuring with Marth is tricky. Though I expect Cactuar to come in and be like, "Nah, it's so easy. Swing your sword! " to refute that. But oh well.

Sheik's Fair is a good move.

I remember the first time I saw a ganondorf spamming SH fair and I was like wow thats really good. and then I saw a sheik spamming SH back FF autocancel fair and I just ****ing laughed.

 

[x After Dawn x]

don't forget dr mario. sh ff kobe all day.

 

[KAOSTAR]

LOL thats not gonna produce the same reaction, its more or less is like hey lets go hoop vs FML sheik is stupid good.

 

[x After Dawn x]

lololol kobe is still the best move in the game son

 

[Staz]

great list, I like it, I knew marth wasn't THAT good.

 

[Mr.-0]

Did someone just say Kobe Bryant is the best player in the NBA?

Edit: Oh wait LOL misread something.

 

[V3ctorMan]

^and yes he still is to the kobe question

/fanboy >.>

 

[x After Dawn x]

I like kobe. he ***** people and doesn't afraid of the law.

 

[Staz]

lol kobe is broken

 

[rhan]

^and yes he still is to the kobe question

/fanboy >.>

Kobe is GOAT. I only watch Basketball for him.

 

[x After Dawn x]

kobe bryant vs sheik, 1 on 1 basketball money match. who wins?

 

[Strong Badam]

chaingrabbing that basketball

 

[rhan]

Kobe never loses.

 

[Divinokage]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TO4yeUIPWE

This is how broken Kobe Bryant is. haha.

 

[choknater]

i love kobe lol

i look at the videos that phil favs on youtube

and it's been getting me more into basketball

a lot

 

[ghost361]

Im new to smashboards.(like i made this thing 10 mintues ago)
What does it mean when its in alpabets.?

 

[rhan]

That's pretty much the ranking system of the characters.

S rank would be the highest, then it goes alphabetically down the scale (starting with A) to indicate what's the next rank in line. The better characters are closer to the top and the most ignored/bad characters are closer to the bottom.

Letters are a better indicator instead of saying top/high/mid/low tier.

 

[x After Dawn x]

at first i was like "what alphabet?" until you cleared that up. rofl

 

[choknater]

i main the only B tier character. too good.

 

[Wake]

Abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz

 

[rhan]

at first i was like "what alphabet?" until you cleared that up. rofl

I hope that's what he meant anyway. Plus every other Fighting game tier list does it the same way.

i main the only B tier character. too good.

Yeah I looked back at the list after making that post and was like.. wow.. it's own tier.. lmaooo but it makes sense since IC's metagame is so much more different then any other character.

 

[Fear The Meatball]

Why is fox number 1? He is the absolute hardest to be consistent with and most of the auto-kill-combos are unreliable (dair-shine-usmash and uthrow-uair).Falco has roughly the same mixup options available but is far more consistent damage output and kills. Its really no wonder a fox player hasn't won a national since pre-brawl.

This tier list really ignores the fact that there is a player playing the character and that that player has to think and pressing buttons takes work. My football coach used to say "Mistakes happen when you get tired". We would run laps and then he would line us in our stances and try to have us go on various snaps. If anyone messed up we all ran another lap. I remember thinking, "i'll never mess up something so easy" but then, once in over 50 snaps, it was my turn. This same effect happens to players when they have been playing hard matches, some people more than others but it still takes its toll.

 

[rhan]

Someone that is/was in the BR can explain better and give more reasons why.. but Fox does have very good ko moves, gimps, high priority aerials, recovery, agility.

Plus I'm looking at it more so on the aplhabetical way. Where more so the rank of the character then the order. It gives a better view and deals with less of a debate. If you look at it that way it pretty much puts every character in that rank on a equal standpoint.

Also consistancy important but some character don't need to be as constant as others (ex: Jiggs, Peach, Sheik). I also seen most Fox's that just play as bland and simple as possible. So consistancy relys on the player(s) and doesn't necessarily mean the characters over all ability.

 

[x After Dawn x]

Fox does NOT have the same mixup options than Falco. Different characters. Falco has little grab game compared to Fox, a worse recovery compared to Fox, worse mobility compared to Fox, and less autocombos than Fox (shine > waveland > upsmash/ upthrow > uair for fox is safe at all percentages on marth, for example, whereas falco doesn't have this. falcos combos are also easier to DI out of then fox's; most falco combos rely on missed techs too).