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Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List
- Thread starter Slhoka
- Start date
@afterdawn: actually yeah, i did move, and I'm using a different comp. I was using my dad's before. I used to live in San Diego, and now I live in Marin. My SN was Rootofevil i had less than 20 posts, and i don't remember the password. I originally joined sometime in 2006 i think it was, not that it matters. I mean, what does a join date have to do with the ability to discuss logic?
@The Good Doctor: I'm actually trying not to argue.
@Mr.-0: He didn't say it wasn't a fallacy, he said to bring up a fallacy outside of a situation based off of objective truth was dumb, read his post again.
@The Good Doctor: I'm actually trying not to argue.
@Mr.-0: He didn't say it wasn't a fallacy, he said to bring up a fallacy outside of a situation based off of objective truth was dumb, read his post again.
x After Dawn x
Smash Master
Derkis
Smash Cadet
In my private messages, I realize Jordaash doesn't understand logical implication or is trolling me, HARD. Following the links just posted, I realize he is just trolling me, HARD.
MTKO
Smash Journeyman
Just wondering if anyone would care to explain Marth's placement on the list?
Divinokage
Smash Legend
There's no point in talking about what didn't happen yet.
MTKO
Smash Journeyman
Well that's very true of fox and falco as well and it's match up dependent, just like all the other characters in the game. So obviously that's not the reasoning. I'm looking for the core reasons that he is placed where he is.
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
Presumably he just isn't good enough.
He has very few flaws, other characters are just better.
He has very few flaws, other characters are just better.
john!
Smash Hero
do you think he's placed too high or too low?
imo he's in the right ranking but not the right placement, i feel that he's too good to be in the same tier as falcon and peach
imo he's in the right ranking but not the right placement, i feel that he's too good to be in the same tier as falcon and peach
Where it's true that mistakes are always going to be the reason you lose, with fox/falco you can miss them and defend/attack again before they can capitalize on it way easier than a Marth can. Marths moves have a lot of lag on the back end of them compared to other top/high tier characters.
MTKO
Smash Journeyman
I think he should be in the top tier below sheik, so the same thing you were saying. However I don't think Falco and Jiggs should be in the places they are. So if you want to know how my top 5 would go (based on my knowledge and experience in this game so far, which is pretty limited) it would be: Fox, Sheik, Marth, Falco, Jiggs.
MTKO
Smash Journeyman
Falco and fox are both easily gimped, eat a ton of damage, or comboed for a loss of their stock for making a mistake and there's not much they can do about it just like with all the other characters. Spacing mistakes, tech skill mistakes, making a poor recovery choice, and so on will all lead to them taking tons of damage or even losing the stock and they really can't correct the mistake or get out of it before being punished.
john!
Smash Hero
i know peach is amazing, she's my main 
nothing against her, i just think marth is clearly a step above. i think the reason you don't see many marths at the top level is because people are getting good enough at spacing, di, recovery, and movement to not get caught in his traditional traps, so it becomes very difficult to use his strengths in high level play. easy to learn and hard to master.
edit: mtko is right, and that is why fox and falco will dominate even harder for years to come. people will stop making mistakes with them, they will become nearly untouchable, and characters like marth/peach/falcon who rely on them making mistakes will start to decline.
nothing against her, i just think marth is clearly a step above. i think the reason you don't see many marths at the top level is because people are getting good enough at spacing, di, recovery, and movement to not get caught in his traditional traps, so it becomes very difficult to use his strengths in high level play. easy to learn and hard to master.edit: mtko is right, and that is why fox and falco will dominate even harder for years to come. people will stop making mistakes with them, they will become nearly untouchable, and characters like marth/peach/falcon who rely on them making mistakes will start to decline.
MTKO
Smash Journeyman
Yeah, I think the characters that become much better as the metagame evolves are the most common ones because you have more people using them and figuring out new things and advancing the characters metagame. Doesn't seem like there are a lot of Marths out there to really take Marth up to the next level. As far as potential goes, I think Marth has a lot of potential to be placed higher than 5 and definitely in the top tier. I don't think he's the best by any means, I think fox has the most potential for sure.i know peach is amazing, she's my main
Edit: just read the previous post. That's pretty much my reasoning for thinking fox has the potential to always be the best. I'm not so sure about Falco though. Also once fox players become so proficient in their tech skill and spacing and everything else I think other players will come up with some very very elaborate setups to bait the fox into making a mistake then punish the mistake with a 0 to death combo. Kind of like how 64 is. It should be interesting to see.
I agree, it's hard to be a good Marth. He is amazing if you can space well, but that's really hard to do. and I don't think marth/peach/falcon necessarily rely on spacies making mistakes. I think they can go totally aggressive and still win.
Also on a totally unrelated sidenote: Shiek is unquestionably better than Jiggs, most people just don't know how to fight a puff.
Also on a totally unrelated sidenote: Shiek is unquestionably better than Jiggs, most people just don't know how to fight a puff.
MTKO
Smash Journeyman
Yeah I really don't like Jiggs placement. Not to say that she isn't a great character, I just don't think she deserves that placement.
As of right now I think you could play marth somewhat aggressive against spacies, but I think as spacies players (mainly fox) learn to space better, control zoning, solidify their tech skill, and figure out the best options to shut down the other characters Marth players will have to play the match up much more patiently.
SleepyK
Banned via Administration
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2006
- Messages
- 5,871
at high level, you need to be able to do this with every character anyway.
x After Dawn x
Smash Master
uh marth doesn't get punished for his mistakes as badly as spacies / falcon do
x After Dawn x
Smash Master
ummm why is he more likely to get hit in the first place? that's the dumbest logic ever as to why marth gets "punished worse from his mistakes"
Summonedfist
Smash Lord
dam, i missed out on the whole logic argument X_X
MTKO
Smash Journeyman
When people think of a character that has the most solutions to a problem, they probably think of fox or sheik. I was wondering what people think of this: is the number of solutions a character can solve a problem with better than have only a few or even one good solution for a problem? Just a question about one aspect of melee I thought my be interesting to talk about. So basically is having more solutions to a problem better than having few, but better (or the best) solution(s) or vice versa?
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
It depends on how counterable the solution is.
You have to look at:
a) What counters the solution?
b) How common are the counters?
c) What counters the counters and how common are they?
d) Etc...
Ladies and gentleman: The metagame.
You have to look at:
a) What counters the solution?
b) How common are the counters?
c) What counters the counters and how common are they?
d) Etc...
Ladies and gentleman: The metagame.
SleepyK
Banned via Administration
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2006
- Messages
- 5,871
that's actually very untrue. spacies get punished for landing lag all the time
and marth can be safe with "good spacing" and other deviant tricks.
Summonedfist
Smash Lord
this jordaash guy wasn't watched m2k vids back in 07
Lol! What an ******..
How are you so certain when we'll all die in 2012?
Exactlyyy!
Edit: LMAOOOOO! The "hat" part of ***.hat gets censored. xD
Everyone gets punished for landing lag that's one of the best times to hit someone.
If a Marth has used a move and is still safe due to good spacing he wasn't trying to hit you, he was probably just shffling to keep you from approaching. If a Marth has actually tried to hit you with any of his moves other than his Fair, and has failed because you dodged or shielded or got behind him or wavedashed backwards, he's too close with too much lag not to get punished. My point is that Fox/Falco's moves end before Marths do. A Fox or Falco would be able to Shield or Shine faster than a Marth would be able to do anything cuz he'll still be in his move.
Or am I imagining all this? And all those times I dodged marth and then hit him didn't really happen.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,545
His downtilt has 11 frames of lag. You can't react & punish that fast.
L canceling says hi.
Seriously... what? If Marth used a move and was spacing it.. he WAS trying to hit you but also keep a safe distance. If the Marth's just throwing moves out and just SHFFLing them he's zoning which doesn't really mean much except he's just declaring what's his space.
And why would a Marth not approach with Fair..?
If the Marth is slow then he's either not using L cancels and/or not using the frames to auto cancel his moves.
x After Dawn x
Smash Master
jordaash: it's called dash ****ing away and dash back and grab the mother****er
-ShadowPhoenix-
Smash Bash
if you did have an account since 06 i would have expected you to know that you cant post **** like that in melee discussions
x After Dawn x
Smash Master
i think we all know by now that this is his new account lol
Actually yeah, I forgot how awesome his downtilt was.
@rhan:
NM, you're right. Marth is impossible to hit. He's the best character.
@ShadwPhoenx: Except that i never really used my old account (which is why i forgot the pasword). I have more posts on this new account then i ever did on my old one, and I barely have any posts now.