Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[KirbyKaze]

a good bit of it is probably bias from me. i told m2k that falco ***** sheik for like 4 straight years and he thought it was even until only very recently. i guess no one "*****" sheik except ice climbers in the strictest sense but it's still really stupid when a character based on basically grabs can get shined and combo ***** so badly when her primary play style so has little reward in comparison. i'm pretty sure falco combos sheik better than he combos like any other character or even other garbage mid weights like yoshi.

It's kind of balls that you need to get a crapton of regrabs or gimp OHKOs to keep pace with Falco's autocombo output. And his combo starters are easier to hit. And that he has priority in all the right places to shut out her combo escape efforts if he's smart...

Falco's a good character.



Sheik combos Sheik pretty hard. 0-100 guaranteed per grab is pretty good.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

TG6 was in like... 03? Musta been a seriously hype thing at the time for someone to do that much off 1 grab/CG

 

[Deleted member]

It's kind of balls that you need to get a crapton of regrabs or gimp OHKOs to keep pace with Falco's autocombo output. And his combo starters are easier to hit. And that he has priority in all the right places to shut out her combo escape efforts if he's smart...

Falco's a good character.

it's also kind of balls that they edge guard each other about equally well when sheik's strongest aspect vs falco is edge guards.

it's also balls that sheik's best option for falco's pressure is generally nair oos in a match-up that that punishes the full jump version even if you connect with the nair, so you have to consistently use the SH FF version which I actually think is decently challenging on a technical level because I'm old.

falco dair beating your entire moveset isn't helping. unless you're tec0.

 

[choknater]

haha back in tg6 times, people weren't yelling a lot of stuff during matches. they were talking about strategy, wowing at cool new stuff, and clapping after matches. haha

 

[MTKO]

Is Falco's ability to crouch cancel many of sheik's moves up to a high percent a large disadvantage for sheik in this match up, or is that just me? I find that I get damage from tech chases and well spaced aerials and f tilts, and some needles, and then once I get to that percent where I can start some combos, I combo them off the edge then edge guard them for the stock. However, I find I eat a ton of damage before I get to that comboing percent because of pillars and such.

 

[x After Dawn x]

high percent? trying to cc sheik at high percent is asking to get either grabbed, dash attacked, or *****. low percent, maybe.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

What are you talking about After Dawn? CCing sheik is great until her moves start knocking you down, and even then the knockdown is usually preferred over the getting comboed into a simple edge guard.

On a slightly related note, with fox and falco you can straight up recover before sheik does without CCing at early percents. Mid percents you have to hold down in order to beat her as a character.



edit- but if you are saying "dont just try to CC as your strategy" you are correct lol

 

[KirbyKaze]

it's also kind of balls that they edge guard each other about equally well when sheik's strongest aspect vs falco is edge guards.

it's also balls that sheik's best option for falco's pressure is generally nair oos in a match-up that that punishes the full jump version even if you connect with the nair, so you have to consistently use the SH FF version which I actually think is decently challenging on a technical level because I'm old.

falco dair beating your entire moveset isn't helping. unless you're tec0.

I think Sheik's strongest thing vs Falco is her ability to chase him for a stock if you're good or lucky. She really can just randomly kill him for no reason if she just plays good for a bit, which is pretty crazy. Falcon style. Only you're not Falcon so you have the power to beat Falco too ^_~

Nair OOS is pretty good. I dunno, I've never really had major issues getting the SH Nair on it but yeah if you accidentally full jump you can die, which blows. Her mini-crouch during wavedash is pretty useful, though, for dodging early aerials sometimes (when they're meant to beat such retreats).

Falco's Dair is such a pain T__T

 

[MTKO]

Sorry if my post was confusing, I was trying to point out that Falco can crouch cancel sheiks stuff up into 60 to 70 percent (I think) and that seems to be one of downfalls for sheik in this match up, since Falco can combo you right off the bat and sheik has to get in some damage before she can combo you off the edge.

This would be the layout of how I typically play out the match (I only play against one spacies player, since he's really the only person I get to practice with anymore).
Start of the match: I start getting damage with some tech chases, punish rolls/sidesteps, pressure the shield to make them roll or do something stupid then punish, stick around in the center until he's at combo percentage

Mid percent: Once he's at combo percent I get him up in the air, fair off the edge, combo him more until he's off the edge

High percent: Pretty much the same thing as mid percent, try to get him off the edge.

Once he's off the edge: At mid or high percent I usually get him off the edge, do edge guarding stuff, take the stock, then run around and avoid him and then try to get my position back and repeat.

Sometimes I get the early gimp, if he goes near the edge and I happen to force him off the edge.

Would this be a fair estimate of how this match should typically play out?

 

[KirbyKaze]

He can't crouch cancel when he's in the air, and when he's on the ground and not jumping around Sheik's goal should be to fish for grabs or something that potentially links to grab. Mercifully his D-tilt doesn't outrange Sheik's whole moveset like Fox's; poking a crouching Falco is usually not too awful if you're spaced.

Crouch cancel by Falco is still annoying as fuck, but I think his combos, ground control, and edgeguard loops are what makes this matchup a pain.

 

[MTKO]

He can't crouch cancel when he's in the air, and when he's on the ground and not jumping around Sheik's goal should be to fish for grabs or something that potentially links to grab. Mercifully his D-tilt doesn't outrange Sheik's whole moveset like Fox's; poking a crouching Falco is usually not too awful if you're spaced.

Crouch cancel by Falco is still annoying as fuck, but I think his combos, ground control, and edgeguard loops are what makes this matchup a pain.

Yeah I used to think this was at least a little in falco's favor because of the combo ability on sheik. But I guess it's kind of the same for sheik, you can start off with some tech chasing and then do tilts and aerial combos for quite a while at mid percent.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Getting a grab or knockdown with Sheik is harder than landing any aerial, Shine, or U-tilt with Falco.

That said, it's the arbitrary power of Sheik's throw that actually sometimes just auto-KOs Falco that makes things manageable. In that respect I can very easily see why people say this matchup sucks for Sheik; you're basically pulling a Falcon and wind up relying on things like "reaction time" and "estimates" for your combo extensions, whereas he can cover a bunch of options by pushing buttons more accurately (or quickly). Because he has a move that hits straight down, and a bunch of launchers of varying knockback, I also tend to think he has a lot of choice in where he puts Sheik during his combos; therefore, finishing isn't actually that strenuous. He also has a lot of DI traps that either force her offstage or kill her outright.

That said, I think things like "reaction time" can be trained to a high degree but I suck at them myself so I dunno. I wish I could chase people forever so I could prove it can be done. But I can't because I suck. I also don't practice this game much. [/johns]



edit:

SleepyK took what I said out of context or misquoted me. I'm not sure which. I said a while ago Falco has issues killing because he doesn't have an automatic KO combo like Fox or Sheik, which is an issue at times. In more recent months I don't really feel that's an issue. But let's not make ridiculous claims like "Falco's F-smash is weak" or whatever. That's just silly. Falco's F-smash has very respectable knockback.

 

[gm jack]

If the sheik can PS or otherwise deal with the lasers, I think it's an even match up. Falco sets the pace of the match up and has better combos from low percents. However, sheik's tech chasing can quickly rake up percent to level the combo game a bit. I also thin sheik kills better in higher percents, because she easy mode combos falco for so long and has so many options once cc is gone. Falco is stuck trying to land something cold or weaker combo starter like utilt.

However, it is really leveled by how strong sheik's gimps are on falco. When a single grab or missed CC can lead to you being put off stage against the best gimper in the game, sheik can kill falco at any percent, which is a threat falco cannot return.

 

[KirbyKaze]

If the sheik can PS or otherwise deal with the lasers, I think it's an even match up. Falco sets the pace of the match up and has better combos from low percents. However, sheik's tech chasing can quickly rake up percent to level the combo game a bit. I also thin sheik kills better in higher percents, because she easy mode combos falco for so long and has so many options once cc is gone. Falco is stuck trying to land something cold or weaker combo starter like utilt.

However, it is really leveled by how strong sheik's gimps are on falco. When a single grab or missed CC can lead to you being put off stage against the best gimper in the game, sheik can kill falco at any percent, which is a threat falco cannot return.

PS still makes you stop, work from stationary, then resume. Not a real answer. Sheik is okay at dealing with the lasers because of her range, crouches, wavelands, etc. anyway.

Unless you go all the way to death or hit about 5 regrabs and then some, the tech chase and gimping only keeps pace with Falco's damage output. That Sheik can kill him in certain positions at any percent is matched by the fact that Falco can combo her really effectively and trap her above him. If his entire moveset from the neutral game didn't potentially link a bunch of follows on her, then maybe the fact that she doesn't need him at high percent to kill would be a big plus. But Falco gets Sheik to high percent so quickly, she barely outpaces him (unless she scores multiple gimps, which requires some stupidity on Falco's behalf IMO).

Also, you guys really underrate Falco's F-throw vs Sheik when she's at medium percents or higher. He has some good ways to cover multiple options that remain fairly low risk when he goes for them. Gimping (or I guess for Falco it would be starting an edgeguard loop if Sheik poofs onstage but semantics lolol) works both ways in this matchup.

Sheik is better at killing at high percent.

 

[Dark Hart]

Falco's fthrow = edgeguard opportunity

 

[Deleted member]

as long as we've come to the mutual agreement that falco is gay to sheik and it's not an "even" MU I think we can move on. the list of why/how falco gays sheik is long and extensive.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Actually i think sheik beats falco slightly. Am i in the minority?

 

[x After Dawn x]

no, as i said before amsah has said that the matchup is in sheik's favour but KK said amsah switches up his opinion a lot. the general consensus is that it's roughly even.

 

[Deleted member]

Actually i think a character beats falco in any way. Am i in the minority?

Regardless of how many people agree with you, I'd like to inform you directly that you are wrong.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Hahaha u so bias! Fox > Falco

 

[KirbyKaze]

Falco beats Fox. No justification required.

 

[stingers]

what are falcos edgeguard loops on shiek? dsmash or somethin?

 

[KirbyKaze]

If Sheik techs the D-smash, if Falco positions correctly, he can D-smash her again in a lot of situations.

That can get you started.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Can he really? I've never seen a falco downsmash a 2nd time like that

 

[choknater]

i prefer shiny bears.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Falco can get a second Dsmash sometimes. I tested it with Twitch's Sheik(he does this with all characters now it's a pain lol).

 

[stingers]

i prefer shiny bears.

it wouldnt be much of a loop if you used bair, lol

 

[KirbyKaze]

If she goes deep and you D-smash, you can't get the 2nd D-smash. Buuuuut you also should be able to judge when she can go deeper and adjust accordingly. Moving in front of her preemptively and F-smashing her off is a pretty good counter to that recovery strategy. The nice thing is that she can't do the reduced lag landing when she uses Up+B to go deeper so it's pretty reasonable to get the F-smash.

 

[Doc King]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VDgAZqSK2Q&annotation_id=annotation_628907&feature=iv

Bowser and DK just improved their metagames!

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Old .

 

[Doc King]

Old .

Wow after you saying all of these technique that I've never seen in a Melee tournament are old make me think that a lot of Melee players don't use characters to their potential or use a lot of techniques that they have. (Mango, Mew2King, and Armada are exceptions)

 

[gm jack]

How often do you see DK and bowser?

 

[KirbyKaze]

Old .

still relevant though

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Yeah, but it has its own thread already lol

 

[Doc King]

How often do you see DK and bowser?

almost none, so it would make sense that this has been already found.

 

[Crooked Crow]

Wow after you saying all of these technique that I've never seen in a Melee tournament are old make me think that a lot of Melee players don't use characters to their potential or use a lot of techniques that they have. (Mango, Mew2King, and Armada are exceptions)

Good point, but after 10 years of a developed metagame, we know which characters have potential.

 

[Doc King]

Good point, but after 10 years of a developed metagame, we know which characters have potential.

Yeah, but I think that ppl should use other characters than Fox. I mean probably like half the pros use Fox and the low tiers are constantly ignored. I guess for a start ppl should use Y. Link against Puff like what Armada did against Hungrybox.

 

[CloneHat]

Yeah, but I think that ppl should use other characters than Fox. I mean probably like half the pros use Fox and the low tiers are constantly ignored. I guess for a start ppl should use Y. Link against Puff like what Armada did against Hungrybox.

I'm pretty sure Fox is more consistently better against Puff.

LOL

 

[Doc King]

I'm pretty sure Fox is more consistently better against Puff.

LOL

I would disagree, Y. Link does much better with his good camp game against her and doesn't get up thrown>Rested like Fox does, nor does Y. Link get gimped as easily as Fox does.

 

[rhan]

Low tiers don't matter.

Not even when Armada went YLink v HBox.






Even though YLink players have always seen it as a easier high tier match-up. It still won't matter because there are better characters that handle her better also. AKA Falco.

Edit: Fox's recovery is soooo much better the YLink's.. YLink can get gimped but his recovery make it difficult for Jiggs to get in. But if that player knows how to get around it it's fairly easy to gimp YL.

Btw up throw rest only happens against 2 characters on the cast. So that's pretty invalid to add into a argument.