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No one's denying that Ness sucks, but is he really bottom-tier material? Comparable to Pichu and Kirby? I just don't see it. I've always viewed him as slightly underrated because, rather like Yoshi, he's got a variety of options and whatnot that are relatively unexplored. He's got enough little tricks and weird combos to place him a little higher, in my humble opinion.
Thoughts?
(if this discussion already took place infinity pages ago, someone link me there, thanks)
Honestly, I don't know what scares me more, either the fact that I constantly look in this thread to discuss low tier discussion, or the fact that I actually came into this thread, to announce/say/discuss that I've secretly been developing/working on Ness. (I even just now finished a smash session even) /scary
I know many know that I main Yoshi, and have a solid, Mewtwo/Roy as well, and I actually thought after I pushed my Roy, i'd be pursuing Mr. Game and Watch, alas though, I've actually been playing Ness/GnW both with me growing a liking/attachment to Ness. (To be honest though you should watch Mofo, that dude is WAYYYY GOOD. <3) I've been watching him alot thats for sure. There are rather certain concepts, I'm failing to understand completely though, and i'm trying to adapt to that much easier, but I'm not getting too far.. Not to mention, my GnW is much better, since, after I pushed Yoshi, at Pound V i stated that GnW would be my next low tier push, so I had started him earlier etc... However, due to some motivation or moreso (players lacking to believe) I grew a random motivation to push Roy, so I invested much more time into using Roy.
Granted, It's true, I failed my goal with making it out of pools with Roy at apex. (I made 1st seed at apex in round 1 with him, but not too much further. Round 2 came along, and sadly enough, I grew "stagefright" I suppose. I had a Mario/Doc player (Boss), Eggm, and Stabbed. I was playing Roy in friendlies prior too, and I had felt people had begun to catch on to my peticular style of play. so I copped out of Roy and went Yoshi, (which was dumb too, since I hadn't practiced/played with him much either since the GOAL was to make bracket with Roy, so I feel my Yoshi didn't perform as well as it has in the past. Some still get upset at me, saying "Dude Vman, You have a sick falco, just go Falco, and get yourself in the bracket, (I heard that so many times at Apex it grew sickening) but that was not the initial goal, and I wanted to push myself, because if I don't push myself, i'll never know if I can truly even get there.. you know? Most of you, probably won't understand, and I suppose that's fine.. this is just my mindset I suppose.
Honestly, I hope, my Falco will be wiped from everyone's memory sooner rather than later, however I'll keep playing him, but I don't want to be "remembered/known" etc for having a good Falco.
I lost two close games with Eggm, Boss in game 2 figured out Doc, could CG Yoshi to hell lol, so yeah he beat me pretty solidly, and Stabbed played the Yoshi v Falco MU, rather safe/smart, and I mad respect that with any player.) =] What's funny about stabbed is afterwards he was like "Sorry for playing "campy/lame, I just don't know the MU." I'm telling you, and when I say "you" I mean ALL of you, the community. IDGAF, how you play me at all. The purpose of a tourney is to win/experience/fun etc... You would dishonor me, if you weren't playing your best to beat me.. It means alot to me knowing that someone wants to win vs me, it gives me a sense of "value" as a player, knowing that I may be someone's goal or something. "Value" in meaning, that all of the hard work/practice I put into developing my game, has a sense of pride to it you know, knowing that you all respect me as a top player/good player?
Ok not top player, good player, respectable player , pro player, something worth etc.. I'm sure you get the idea... of what i'm trying to say >.<
Most, if not ALL of you, have seen or at least have an idea, of how soft/nice, I can/may be. Granted don't get that twisted, I'm obviously still VERY competitive, and strive to be a better player each and every day with whomever character I desire to play. But please don't feel/think I may be the type of player that will get all upset over a specific playstyle or something. Who am I, to tell you how to play vs me, or heck vs anyone? Sure to the viewers it might not be easy to watch, and many including myself at times, won't watch rather defensive type(s) of matches, however that DOES NOT take away my respect in any sense of the matter towards you, or any player in general. I have a high respect for honestly much of the community.
if anything a portion of AZ, my own hometown, is what I dislike the most sadly in the ENTIRE community, and that's saddening to me.
It's players that play me with all they have, with all the tools they have, to an advantage etc... that give me that ability to push my low tiers character(s) to new heights, and I think that's something that isn't noticed enough. People sort of think, that I have a "natural" feel to low tier characters, and it's not that at all. I'm lucky enough to have the patience/confidence/belief, that I can make something happen with my character(s), so that's good on my part sure, however my opponent(s) that I play have a major role in everything as well, who've helped push, specifically my low tier game to new heights, so for that I thank each and every one of you that I've played, and will play in the future (hopefully soon) ^^
Eeek, I wrote so much more here, than I intended, but one thing, I honestly don't like is when people tell me, sorry I play all (insert slur/pun here) <--- you get the idea etc.. I don't care, I honestly just want to play, get better, improve, and most importantly have fun... Some say, playing "defensive like" takes away fun. I will be blunt, of course it does, but our definitions/understandings can be different, and many other things. Even then, that will not take away my respect towards you as a player, and in the end... it's ONLY going to make me better anyway, so why complain, when one, can get better from that?
^I know now i'm sort of flirting with another topic, and I don't want to start a discussion with that exactly at the moment, but I hope you understand, what i'm trying to say...
Only Goal, i want,
(besides one day getting an awesome interview at an international similiar to Apex 2010 and get asked awesome questions and stuff woot <3 XD, but I wanna earn it too )
is to eventually get to the top level player area, or at least become a good player, and to motivate others, be a role-model of a sort etc, however there's always that strive to want more once the goal is even reached.. that's simply natural though to competitive people.. I'd hope, when my time is done with this game, that perhaps there will be a player with a similar like mindset that I have... and choose a character that they love, despite tier position or whatever, and play the character they want to play I'm not saying there are none out there either, I'm just saying I guess hope to see MORE of it. Having fun with this game and playing the character you wanna play is what makes me keep playing this game and to many of us... Me just being very competetive, and wanting to become a top player/ push said character(s) is just I suppose a bonus, knowing that I have the confidence, belief, that I can one day become a top player. Seeing both combinations put together, would just be like seeing myself in a sense, and in a way all of us, want to looked up to by someone..
I know I'd wanna be looked up to by someone or something..
Idk now i'm sounding corny huh? *sigh* idk sorry,
Well, I think i've spoke enough, and I know most of you prolly won't read this anyway cuz it's TLDR, or <--- however that's supposed to go, but I did wanna get out my thoughts...
In relation to the thread, I think Yoshi/Roy/Ness are all very playable characters honestly, and it's fine if none of you believe me...
I mean none of you did when I played Yoshi either but I had to prove it at Pound V
but in a sense I like it that way, because that too, is a source of motivation in itself, so I understand. Not to mention results usually always speak for themselves too, so I guess that helps too
I still have my goals for Roy, and I'll most likely pursue Ness very soon as well... It's these kinds of goal(s) that keep me playing, and even if I never reach them, even if none of you ever believe me again or anything... It's not gonna stop me from trying.. because it's what helps me keep playing this awesome game. n_n
Oh yeah uhhhh, Low tiers <3 ummm what's the main discussion going on again? and yeah I guess to answer the main question.. Yeah I've been working on Ness too, but I doubt, I can do anything like Mofo, and some others that I've seen, but i'm sure I'll keep trying.. ^^
I don't think people realise quite how terrible it is that he can die at any time vs a good character. Half way useful B Throw algorithm? He's ****ed, dead at 0. All of his little gimmicks with stuff like F Air spacing are also utterly obliterated by familiarity and correct use of SDI. Honestly, I might put him below Kirby. People just get blinded because some spacie who doesn't have a clue what to do gets DJC U Aired x a bajillion and it looks sexy.
Ness is probably bottom of low tier/top of bottom. He is WAYYYY too solid of a character to be close to the worst character in the game, are you ****ing kidding me lol.
I highly disagree, but that's probably because I have gimpyfish in my region. He actually came to a regional a couple months ago, and even after having not played in ages he was still taking matches from ranked players. Though you can combo the **** out of bowser, he can be quite good when he gets momentum and hits hard. But like most low tiers, most of their success comes from people not understanding the MU. And bowser isn't really viable vs. sheik, which is a problem for him. Regardless, up+B oos and his fair are really solid tools for bowser, I don't think he could ever be considered worse than pichu. I could see kirby moving above him, maybe.
There is nothing solid about Ness? His punishment game is very solid, and his aerial hitboxes in general are some of the best in the game. I can get people thinking Ness is bad overall, but he's definitely one of those characters that is very solid in certain aspects and completely void of hope in others (recovery being the most obvious).
There is nothing solid about Ness? His punishment game is very solid, and his aerial hitboxes in general are some of the best in the game. I can get people thinking Ness is bad overall, but he's definitely one of those characters that is very solid in certain aspects and completely void of hope in others (recovery being the most obvious).
Ness is most definitely not bottom tier. His on stage game is fantastic. Zones with great hitboxes such as fair/bair/dash attack and DJC gives him really tricky bursts of speed that can be difficult to deal with. He's only really exposed during his recovery, and his recovery is also really good if NOT exploited cheaply (sweetspots from below? tons of power if it hits you, general super floatiness often means he doesn't need to up B and can just air dodge to stage a lot of the time). He also punishes great off his zoning tools with just about his whole moveset including dtilt acting as a jab reset for baseball bat or bair. His back throw is also insanely fast and insanely powerful and you can easily miss that DI if you're not on top of your game.
I think if pushed by a really good player he could be zelda level or possibly even link level (young link is too low in the current tier list). His biggest problem is spacies even tho his punishing is great on them they out maneuver his zoning too quickly and also exploit him extra badly off stage (Fox shine, Falco laser).
I've played against like 4 different people who actually play Ness well lol that's why I'm commenting.
I'd think Ness had major problems vs Sheik/Marth/Peach, as well. Sheik is self-explanatory, he doesn't have a direct answer to just outright turnip spam, and Marth outranges him horribly. In addition, they don't get punished as hard, because they aren't fast fallers.
I don't know much about the character, though, so he may have ways of mitigating these weaknesses (but I don't see him getting past Sheik, honestly).
)
Having fun with this game and playing the character you wanna play is what makes me keep playing this game and to many of us... Me just being very competetive, and wanting to become a top player/ push said character(s) is just I suppose a bonus, knowing that I have the confidence, belief, that I can one day become a top player. 
