Official Marths June Tier Placement Discussion - Updated 4/9/09!

[Steel]

because i don't like putting myself directly into the ****.

 

[ZHMT]

Glide tossing vs Diddy should be done like once a Match at most.

Your completely vunerable if he shields the banana (forwards) and if you glide toss up, youll get punished.

 

[BanjoKazooiePro]

Couldnt you kill 2 birds with one stone and glide toss the banana up?

When has there ever been a shortage of stones and an abundance of birds? That's the real question.

 

[Ussi]

When has there ever been a shortage of stones and an abundance of birds? That's the real question.

You win a cookie *gives cookie*

There is only one stone (Kirby) and two birds (Falco and DDD) and a flying lizard (Charizard)

 

[BanjoKazooiePro]

I wouldn't mind killing Falco and D3. Kirby's gonna feel that in the morning.

 

[takeurlife2]

Couldnt you kill 2 birds with one stone and glide toss the banana up? It gets the naner away from diddy, sets it as YOUR item, and u get in diddy's face in an instant. Sure they may expect you to glide toss shieldbreak them, but that is fixed by simple mixups (grab/dtilt them or something, you are in their face after all). Why not condition diddy to thinking u will gilde toss SB them? I can't see myself being punished for glidetoss SB because when u initiate the SB marth pulls back a bit and should be just outside of diddys grab range (unless he PS'ed the banana with insane reaction time and went for a dash grab) .

the problem with diddy isnt approaching him, it's trying to not get punished for approaching him.

glide toss= punishment.

hell, ,most of the time he will approach you

 

[BacklashMarth]

Hold on, if diddy shielded the banana (u glide toss forward) wont one of 3 things happen?
1) Banana bounces up off of diddys shield but it is still your item and it falls down on him making him trip (or release his grab if he managed to grab you)
2) Diddy gets hit by the naner and/or trips, u get a free follow up
3) Diddy stays in his shield and u hit him with shieldbreaker (or he drops his shield and takes the hit)

*im assuming diddy doesnt have a banana with him at the time of the glide toss*
These all dont seem so bad to me provided i didnt miss anything. That being said, i do see where u guys are coming from though.

 

[ChaosKnight]

Glide tossing vs Diddy should be done like once a Match at most.

Your completely vunerable if he shields the banana (forwards) and if you glide toss up, youll get punished.

i always get a banana and always glide toss but the thing is that i glide toss away while i throw the banana at him to he has to sheild .. so he wont trip and marth is actually fast enough to run back at him and knowing ANY diddy they are attracted to that banana like crack and WILL go grab that i threw at him leading up to a free Fair ....... xD

 

[KRiMz0N]

theres no real need for him to go up unless a wii patch comes out and his dancing blade has a neverending streak of combos, his shield breaker sends him upward as well as forward, his ds goes twice as far in both ways and is DI-able, his counter lasts the entire match etc

 

[BBoyindo]

theres no real need for him to go up unless a wii patch comes out and his dancing blade has a neverending streak of combos, his shield breaker sends him upward as well as forward, his ds goes twice as far in both ways and is DI-able, his counter lasts the entire match etc

Guess what Sakurai just told me....
But i think Marth has the potential to move up, it is just that his learning curve is very long.

 

[ChaosKnight]

his learning curve is hardest for newcomers so we need to break that lol

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I think marth will go up.

 

[takeurlife2]

Hold on, if diddy shielded the banana (u glide toss forward) wont one of 3 things happen?
1) Banana bounces up off of diddys shield but it is still your item and it falls down on him making him trip (or release his grab if he managed to grab you)
2) Diddy gets hit by the naner and/or trips, u get a free follow up
3) Diddy stays in his shield and u hit him with shieldbreaker (or he drops his shield and takes the hit)

*im assuming diddy doesnt have a banana with him at the time of the glide toss*
These all dont seem so bad to me provided i didnt miss anything. That being said, i do see where u guys are coming from though.

you forget that

1) diddys, at least decent ones, can catch nanners with jab pretty easily
2) if he powershields it, it wont land too close in front of him
3) his grab range is ridiculous
4) even if you hit his normal shield with the nanner and try to follow up, he can always just roll or spotdodge.

or he could even take the hit from shield breaker, it wont ever break a semi full shield, grab you and throw you away, then take the nanner... He takes no damage and you lose your position along with the nanner.

 

[Darxmarth23]

*Bump for new discussion plx*

The other character boards think that Marth is a very overrated character. And a lot of knowledgeable smashers think that Wario and Diddy will move above Marth, and that the match ups should be redone.

Falco might go down but I doubt that he will move below marth.

My new projected list:

1. MK
2. Snake
3. Falco, Diddy, or Wario
6. DDD
7. GaW or Marth.

Its getting close to June, dudes.

 

[7ACE7]

Not sure if Marth will go up but I think he should rise to 5 or 4. He only has three bad matchups, and on the rest of the cast over 80 percent of the matchups are at least 60:40 in his favor. And as far as I know he is closing the gap on Snake and DDD.

 

[Shaya]

D3 is probably getting smaller, while Snake is probably not.

Yes, there is a stigma about Marth.
And when it comes to Wario... maybe he'll be like the Melee Fox (everyone has a chaingrab/massive combos on him) but still be seen as "one of" the best.
I read someone people think Marth will go to 4th... I doubt this very much.

While Marth may do better against everyone whos moving up, Metaknight is still at the top, and overall dominates Marth and reduces his viability as a competitive character.

Whilst I hear/read that people using LOW TIERS (Pokemon Trainer for example) are taking matches/sets off of GOOD Metaknight users, it's rare I hear Marth doing much of that at all (at least if to compare as a ratio of how many more Marth mains there are compared to PT ones). It's such a depressing thing.

 

[C.J.]

Shaya, that's kinda to be expected. Give it another month or so and let the MKs get used to and exp against *good* PT and then you'll probably see a more even ratio/ratio in favor of marth.

 

[Darxmarth23]

D3 is probably getting smaller, while Snake is probably not.

Yes, there is a stigma about Marth.
And when it comes to Wario... maybe he'll be like the Melee Fox (everyone has a chaingrab/massive combos on him) but still be seen as "one of" the best.
I read someone people think Marth will go to 4th... I doubt this very much.

While Marth may do better against everyone whos moving up, Metaknight is still at the top, and overall dominates Marth and reduces his viability as a competitive character.

Whilst I hear/read that people using LOW TIERS (Pokemon Trainer for example) are taking matches/sets off of GOOD Metaknight users, it's rare I hear Marth doing much of that at all (at least if to compare as a ratio of how many more Marth mains there are compared to PT ones). It's such a depressing thing.

That is a post that will go up on the front page. Nice job dude.

Does anyone think that D3 will fall lower than marth? And what about GaW?
The thing is, most top/high tier characters have a very close match up with marth. It really ends up being about skill.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Tournament based tier lists are ******** and produce threads like this.

 

[Pr0phetic]

Tournament based tier lists are ******** and produce threads like this.

What's your idea on this EL?

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Tournament based tier lists are ******** and produce threads like this.

How would you do tier list then? I'm not saying I disagree but how would you make a tier list if you didn't use tourney results ?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Match-up based. Tournament based lists are subject to metagame flucuations and they also give the impression that a game may still be evolving when it may or may not be.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Match-up based. Tournament based lists are subject to metagame flucuations and they also give the impression that a game may still be evolving when it may or may not be.

Are they match ups being played out or being discussed???

 

[Emblem Lord]

I would think at this point the majority of match-ups are set in stone. Anyway, Marth as a character has not changed. His success in tournaments depends entirely on who he sees more of.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I would think at this point the majority of match-ups are set in stone. Anyway, Marth as a character has not changed. His success in tournaments depends entirely on who he sees more of.

So you think Marth has hit the ceiling as a character and his only place to go is down? Depending on the environment?

 

[Pr0phetic]

I would think at this point the majority of match-ups are set in stone. Anyway, Marth as a character has not changed. His success in tournaments depends entirely on who he sees more of.

I agree with this, maybe I was right in arguing the tier list before. Based on match-ups, I'd say he's 5th or 6th like he currently is.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I agree with this, maybe I was right in arguing the tier list before. Based on match-ups, I'd say he's 5th or 6th like he currently is.

IDK the match-up are pretty bias and people don't often agree on them or people ignore some people say and take others words more seriously.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Pretty much every character has hit their ceiling. The top ten won't change and the top two characters MK and Snake aren't going anywhere. All of this is pointless. When you lose to the best characters there isn't much left to say.

Marth is great overall, but...you guys know the deal.

 

[Darxmarth23]

Pretty much every character has hit their ceiling. The top ten won't change and the top two characters MK and Snake aren't going anywhere. All of this is pointless. When you lose to the best characters there isn't much left to say.

Marth is great overall, but...you guys know the deal.

So on a match up based list he would stay fifth or sixth? I think he would make fourth.

And EL has bought a different aspect to this discussion. Since tier lists are evaluated by tournament averages (partially or maybe all of the list. That I do not know), I think we should focus on the tournament scene instead....

 

[phi1ny3]

I'd say solidly 5th-ish. I've seen that some aspects of his have room to grow, and the problem with going only with character theory is that this only works in a perfect world. There will always be character bias, there will always be specifics, and most of all, there will be adaptation. The last reason alone is probably the main reason why D3, G&W, and falco (more or less) have been seeing just a little bit of decay, while marth, snake (with some improved methods) and newer scene characters have been doing well, paper theory doesn't always count the human element, and as much as they try, you will always get some deviation.
Tourney play looks at the human aspect more, which is really who plays the game, which is why it's hard to pinpoint game theory, since we don't have an established control per se (like Rybka or Deep Blue for chess), and we don't have as much time to develop. Overall, yes, tourney based listings are sometimes faulty and can lead to problematic/misleading metagame thoughts, but it certainly is a good element to incorporate on top of theoretical view.

 

[A~Kid/ToonethLinkage]

I predict that Marth will either stay where he is, move up, or move down.

*sarcastic* REALLY?!?!?!?!??! I DID- I DID NOT KNOW THAT!!!!! =O

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

And you bump a month and a half old thread for that?

:sniper:

 

[Darxmarth23]

I made this thread, and even I say that it shouldn't be bumped.

Mods can lock. Only a few more days left anyways.

 

[Zankoku]

I predict that Marth will be going down by one placement on the tier list.

 

[Darxmarth23]

Pierce and the others predicted that marth will go up a few.

Maybe till 4th place.

 

[Tennet]

4 more days wow time is going by REALLY fast.

 

[Remzi]

I think Marth was 6th on the last one, if thats correct I can almost guarantee he will be 6th or 7th depending on whether or not he is above Falco.

 

[Darxmarth23]

Well, after the list comes out, this will be the new discussion.....

Right?

 

[Shaya]

I suppose.

But Wario and Diddy were destined to go up, it's only natural we go down.

However, the tier seperation (point gap) for between wario/diddy and Marth shouldn't be too drastic... Even though... I think... it will be... noticable.

I can't stand the idea of Falco staying above Marth *sigh*. I secondary that majestic bird, but I know I'll never be able to solo him in my region where there's 3 Ice Climber users, a NASTY PT main (Squirtle cracks Falco), and Lolimars and Pikachus popping up all over the place. How can Falco be top tier if he isn't mostly viable for single usage.
But I think the major dropper of this list will be game and watch.

 

[Albert.]

I can't stand the idea of Falco staying above Marth *sigh*. I secondary that majestic bird, but I know I'll never be able to solo him in my region.

but why would you want to??