Official Kirby Matchup Thread, now discussing: LUCAS!!!

[Retroend]

zelda then. lets get to it.

 

[A1lion835]

Eh, scratch 4 votes, I'm bored.

 

[Lovely]

Thanks for clearing it up T!Mmy. :D

As for Zelda, I no longer agree that Zelda has the upper hand on Kirby because how easily Zelda can be gimped, not to mention that her air mobility to gimp others is poor as well. My guess, the match up is 55/45 Kirby.

 

[|RK|]

Eh, scratch 4 votes, I'm bored.

That was four votes :/

Start from Viper on down.

 

[HRNUT (Honey Roasted)]

☆ **** no! It's 55/45 dang it. D=< ☆

☆ Alright, I guess if the majority votes than it's 60/40 though it doesn't feel like that to me. I guess we need to fix the Zelda match up next huh? ☆

57/43 mk and thats all i gotta say

 

[RoflWafflez]

60/40 is fine w/ me. I go for Zelda too. Zelda is scary. Elaborate!

 

[thrillagorilla]

I was interested in discussing situations a bit more, but t1mmy's posts are good, so I'm fine with moving on. Regardless of what we put down, its gonna be Metaknight's advantage anyways.

I vote Zelda/Sheik. There are more and more players that play both rather than specializing. Zelda is fine though.

 

[Allied]

57/43 mk and thats all i gotta say

thats what i said then they were like "Oh no allied your dumb"

its ok tho
<3

oh man i can't wait to start typing about the zelda matchup XD

 

[CaliburChamp]

Zelda seems harder than Shiek. Kirby ciding can really harm Zelda alot, since she can't angle her recovery over some ledges. It can be as simple as spitting Zelda out underneath a stage. Use Stone if you think Zelda will use Up-air. The match up seems like it may be 50/50 to me, her upsmash beats our D-air.

 

[Retroend]

well i hardly face any zeldas. the only one that i recall facing is lady legion, and shes the best zelda in florida!

but heres what i can say. zelda's side b is the main annoyance for me. although you can air dodge it with eae, she can use it again, which makes it hard for me to even approach her. and even when i try to approach her, her quick tilts and smashes hit me. i say use final cutter when you see an opening. and of course all of us know this- use back air. and if you can get close on her, use the vulcan jabs, just watch out for her smashes.

i don't much zelda experience so sorry that i couldn't offer much. i hope to hear good advice from you guys since i do tend to have trouble against zelda. i'd say 50-50 for this matchup, but we'll see what happens later.

 

[A1lion835]

You can DI out of her smashes for minimal damage. That means she pretty much has to rely on bair for kills (though uair is good too, and fair is okay, but has more lag than bair...).

 

[TrIkZ]

Zeldas dinfire is annoying and a big problem for me. Maybe im just a little to campy. Suck her under the stage. Her Bair and Fair is probably going to be her main attacks sense we can DI out of her smashes.
55/45 Kirbyy

 

[Triple R]

Which way should we be DI/SDIing her up and side smashes? Also copied nyru's love beats out the second part of her teleport.

 

[jiovanni007]

Which way should we be DI/SDIing her up and side smashes? Also copied nyru's love beats out the second part of her teleport.

mostly away from the knockback. As in directly away from fsmash and up from usmash thou that makes it difficult to punish. I'm working on trying to go to the side and down on usmash but I'm lazy and my rommie never helps me with anything and the closest Zelda player to me is 60 miles away and doesn't even play anymore.

 

[Lord Viper]

☆ Bringing up t!Mmy's post from the last match up thread if he doesn't mind: ☆

And... Zelda is a 40-60 match up? In Zelda's favor? I'd be more apt to say it's in Kirby's favor, but someone could maybe talk me into going 50-50.

The reasons I say this is because Zelda really can't take advantage of her priority against Kirby. Unlike a lot of characters with disjointed hitboxes, Zelda leaves herself open quite a bit when using her U-smash, F-smash, Din's Fire, etc. This makes up for Kirby's speed and actually lets him move in with an attack of his choosing giving him opportunities to combo or go for a KO.

Also, Zelda's attacks are countered fairly easily by proper distancing and/or DI. You can actually Smash DI her multi-hit smashes to avoid the last, strong hitbox and survive. Din's Fire can just be Air Dodged if at a distance from Zelda, or you can N-air through it and hit her with the N-air (or just Fast Fall into whatever you want) if she uses it too close. Not to mention the Zelda Hat makes you practically immune to Din's Fire, and can be used offensively against her Side Steps and as a mix-up against her approaches (invincibility frames FTW).

Once off-stage, she's at a huge disadvantage. If you're close enough, you can hit her before/during her Farore's Wind with a B-air (maybe a Giant Swing or F-air). If she's out too far for you to Air Guard, just time your Edgehog so that she can't grab the ledge or hit you off of it upon her return and she loses a stock. She's then forced to reappear on the stage, at which point you can usually get a F-smash, U-smash, Hammer, Giant Swing, F-air, N-air, or B-air on her depending on how well you read her recovery.

It's easy to catch her with D-tilt, U-tilt, Jab, and B-air because her attacks are not fast enough to compete with them, and her fast attacks are not scary. I mean, her Jab, Nayru's Love, D-tilt, and D-smash are nothing compared to Snake's tilts or Meta Knight's anything. The worst that can happen is you get hit by a quick D-tilt multiple times, or get KO'd at 150% by a D-smash. I admit getting combo'd from D-tilt into U-tilt/U-smash is effective and scary, but you can also DI the D-tilt making the follow-up fail.

All Kirby has to do is stay out of range of Zelda's D-tilt/U-smash/F-air/B-air and watch for openings. She will have to leave herself vulnerable at some point, and even if she doesn't Kirby can still do a decent job approaching with dashing Perfect Shield, a Dodge, or with a B-air/Grab.

I'd give this a 55-45, Kirby's favor until I see otherwise.

☆ A lot of good pointers, though he might have a different though now, but I'm leaning towards this. ☆

 

[fromundaman]

TBH, I know little about Zelda, the only Zelda I've played was on LM, and let me tell you, if that stage is legal, ban it against her...
That's pretty much all I got out of it...

 

[thrillagorilla]

Sorry to interrupt the conversation, but I said I would look into a few things on the Metaknight MU and I've finished. To what Fromundaman posted...

1) NONE of Kirby's ground moves have more range than Metaknights save f-smash. None. The first hit of his f-tilt out spaces everything except f-smash. His d-tilt too, for that matter. The only way you are going to out range him is if you slide in for the attack, but this makes the attack come out a bit slower, is difficult to time and puts you right next to a ready Meatknight if he power-shielded it, making it not worth it.

2) Kirby's bair beats out Metaknight's fair in range and priority. This surprised the crap out of me (sorry for doubting you Fromundaman ), but it works... Until the Metaknight decides to space using bair. It has more range on it and if it is used while pulling back, there is no way for Kirby to take advantage of the slower hit-boxes.

Now that I've put that out there...

I played a good Zelda main this past weekend... with my Kongs, not with Kirby. XD The same player I mentioned earlier that plays Sonic also plays Zelda, so I'll add more to the discussion once I've played him.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

but heres what i can say. zelda's side b is the main annoyance for me. although you can air dodge it with eae, she can use it again, which makes it hard for me to even approach her. and even when i try to approach her, her quick tilts and smashes hit me. i say use final cutter when you see an opening. and of course all of us know this- use back air. and if you can get close on her, use the vulcan jabs, just watch out for her smashes.

Din´s fire really shouldn´t give too much trouble to Kirby. It´s pretty good occasional punishing move but doesn´t work well in camping: almost every character in the game has at least one aerial that can be used to break through it reliably and they can always justair dodge it anyway. Just watch out not to land too close to her and you´ll soon learn to avoid damage from Din really well. You really shouldn´t use Nayru´s love if you copy it to deal with Din, it´s a bad reflector, really punishable and you have much better options.

Vulcan jabs are quite risky against her, as she can SDI out of them and F-tilt, D-tilt ar F-smash you.

About her killing moves:

That means she pretty much has to rely on bair for kills (though uair is good too, and fair is okay, but has more lag than bair...).

Bair and Fair are hard to sweetspot on Kirby due to his small size. Watch out for her Uair, U-tilt, and if it isn´t stale, U-smash. All of those work well as kill moves and will kill Kirby at relatively small percents. She also has D-tilt setups for the latter ones (they aren´t always 100% sure but can still give her KOs). You want to avoid D-tilt anyway as it has good priority and gives her free followup attack if it trips you. She also has D-tilt => D-smash combo that works really well, so be prepared for it.

In the match you want to get Zelda into the air and above you. Your air and gimping games are much better than hers and will give you the edge both in the air and offstage. Her recovery is long, but highly predictable and punishable both in the startup and end. She´s also lightweight so aerial hammer is really destructive.

When you´re recovering, pretty much only thing to watch out for is her spike. It´s hard to sweetspot and easy to see coming but will kill early when she gets it done. Kirby´s good recovery means she won´t be gimping you with Nair or Nayru´s and your aerial game prevents Fair/Bair sweetspots. Zelda also can´t risk getting kirbycided or edgeguarded by going offstage too much, so she´ll propably mostly stay on the stage and look for a change to punish you from there.

When approaching her your most reliable choice is Bair. She still can punish it though, so don´t be predictable with it. Mix it up with other moves and baiting to get inside her. It isn´t as hard as it sounds: just one mistake from her and you´re free to start pressuring.

 

[t!MmY]

☆ Bringing up t!Mmy's post from the last match up thread if he doesn't mind: ☆

(me quoted here)

☆ A lot of good pointers, though he might have a different though now, but I'm leaning towards this. ☆

Thanks for digging up that quote. Since then I've had the opportunity to play perhaps the best Zelda main I've found to date, up at Tourney Play. His name was Maus (maybe I'm spelling it wrong, but it sounds like "Mouse").

My opinion really hasn't changed on the match-up since that quote. However, I did see Maus using ledge-cancelled Farore's Wind -> F-air/B-air which looked really impressive. It's use was a bit limited, but it still looked cool.

I'm still thinking the match-up is mostly neutral with any advantages going to Kirby. 55-45, Kirby's advantage.

 

[fromundaman]

Sorry to interrupt the conversation, but I said I would look into a few things on the Metaknight MU and I've finished. To what Fromundaman posted...

1) NONE of Kirby's ground moves have more range than Metaknights save f-smash. None. The first hit of his f-tilt out spaces everything except f-smash. His d-tilt too, for that matter. The only way you are going to out range him is if you slide in for the attack, but this makes the attack come out a bit slower, is difficult to time and puts you right next to a ready Meatknight if he power-shielded it, making it not worth it.

2) Kirby's bair beats out Metaknight's fair in range and priority. This surprised the crap out of me (sorry for doubting you Fromundaman ), but it works... Until the Metaknight decides to space using bair. It has more range on it and if it is used while pulling back, there is no way for Kirby to take advantage of the slower hit-boxes.

Now that I've put that out there...

I played a good Zelda main this past weekend... with my Kongs, not with Kirby. XD The same player I mentioned earlier that plays Sonic also plays Zelda, so I'll add more to the discussion once I've played him.

Uh oh... Discussion on two characters now:

1) Ah, okay, guess I was wrong. Are you sure Inhale doesn't beat Ftilt though? I mean, I'm pretty sure I've beaten their Ftilt with mine, but it's been a while since I've been in that situation, and I'm probably wrong then, but to my knowledge the only things I've seen outrange inhale (when we are both on the ground) are Fsmash and SL (hence why I said inhale was a bad idea. Even if you get time to start it, you run the risk of an Fsmash to the face.).

2) Bair is slower and has less vertical range. You can attempt to go above him and punish it, but that rarely works. The reason you won't see as much Bair spacing is because it is very easy to shieldgrab, especially when perefct shielded. Also, with good timing, I *think* you can PS all 3 hits, though I could be wrong.




As for Zelda, Half-Split Soul seems to know what he's talking about. From my limited experience in this matchup, it seems correct.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

However, I did see Maus using ledge-cancelled Farore's Wind -> F-air/B-air which looked really impressive. It's use was a bit limited, but it still looked cool.

That´s called Ledgewarping. It´s a neat little trick but pretty much useless for other than occasional surprise attacks. Still cool though.

Your old post was pretty much correct except for her fast attacks. Jab and NL aren´t exactly fast with jab´s first hitbox coming out on frame 11 and NL´s hitbox coming out on frame 13. The latter has invincibility frames from 5 to 11 though. Her fastest ground attacks are D-smash (hitbox out on frame 4, full length at 5), D-tilt (frame 5), dash attack (frame 6) and U-smash (frame 6).

 

[fromundaman]

Usmash comes out faster then her jab? I didn't know that.

Also, what moves, other than her jab, have IASA frames?

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Here´s a thread with her frame data:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=218082

Press control + F, write "frame data" and hit enter two or three times to get directly to the point.

 

[A1lion835]

*pokes thread*

Cmon, more matchup discussion! To prompt it, here's some questions:

- What should each side to do combo/string the other?

- [How] can we get out of each other's combos and strings?

- What should each side KO with?

- Spit or swallow?

- What's it like when both sides are grounded? Both in the air? Both offstage? Any combination of those?

 

[stealth3654]

Hey everyone!

The Sheik boards are currently discussing the Kirby match-up here: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=226389&page=21.
Contributions will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks .

 

[Asdioh]

*pokes thread*

Cmon, more matchup discussion! To prompt it, here's some questions:

- What should each side to do combo/string the other?

- [How] can we get out of each other's combos and strings?

- What should each side KO with?

- Spit or swallow?

- What's it like when both sides are grounded? Both in the air? Both offstage? Any combination of those?

a great way to combo Zelda is with Fthrow->Fair walls at low percents. Repeated Fairs, if done right (usually while rising) are very hard for some characters to get out of, and it works wonders I think on Zelda. (And ROB)

She doesn't really have combos...just avoid Din's Fire, SDI the Fsmash or Upsmash, and avoid her tilts, aerials, and Nayru's love. SDI away from her dtilt locks.

You should KO with Fsmash obviously, if you get the opportunity, which might be hard against Zelda. Bair is your easiest KO move here. Dair her offstage with proper timing for an easy gimp. Aerial Hammers might work wonders.

Swallow, I think, because Kirbycide is hard to pull off against someone with half a brain, and you can always downtaunt if you want to get rid of your power. Plus, invincibility frames on Nayru's Love, plus decent priority and (I think) damage, and basically invulnerability to Din's Fire makes it worth it. It's also good to have if she transforms to Sheik, because you can reflect Needles :D

 

[fromundaman]

She doesn't really have combos...just avoid Din's Fire, SDI the Fsmash or Upsmash, and avoid her tilts, aerials, and Nayru's love. SDI away from her dtilt locks.

So basically what you're saying is... don't get hit?


Also, since we have a smaller Nayru's range, can't she SDI it and Fsmash when it ends?

 

[thrillagorilla]

So basically what you're saying is... don't get hit?


Also, since we have a smaller Nayru's range, can't she SDI it and Fsmash when it ends?

Both Zelda and Kirby can SDI their opponent's respective Naryu's love moves and punish with an f-smash. (Just 'cause I felt like testing it...) How you would SDI it changes depending on where you were hit with the move, though. As far as I can tell, if you get hit right next to the caster, you can't get out in time to punish. She can also f-smash you directly out of it while you are using it, so...

 

[momochuu]

Who's supposed to have the second post?

 

[thrillagorilla]

*shrugs*

Iunno. A1 hasn't kept me in the loop about what he wants.

 

[momochuu]

I could've sworn he said he wanted you to have the second post. >_> Then later on he said that he wanted the second post.

 

[choknater]

zelda can't keep up with kirby but she can attempt to setup a brick wall with her priority

she relies on aerial spacing and air dodges to weave in so that she can attack

since kirby's aerial movement, spacing, and adaptation is much better, zelda has a disadvantage

there's not much i can say about zelda in her favor except that she hits really freaking hard

keep in mind though that sheik/zelda makes the matchup pretty even. alone, both of them are disadvantaged against Kirby

 

[fromundaman]

I don't know, but we should pick another character and keep moving for now.

 

[DarKirby]

i know i put this in the other thread, but howz about GnW?

 

[¤Vivi Orunitia¤]

I don't know, but we should pick another character and keep moving for now.

Before we move on, are there any objections to the match-up being 55:45 Kirby?

 

[fromundaman]

Few people have experience, and there've been no meaningful posts in days. Either people agree or they no longer care.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Few people have experience, and there've been no meaningful posts in days. Either people agree or they no longer care.

Probably both.

Zeldas currently have it as 60:40 her advantage but it could be neutral. Just put it somewhere near 50:50.

And also about inhale: don´t swallow just to get Nayru´s love. You have better options against Din and your inhale is just as useful/useless in the match. Spit also gets Zelda into air (albeit for just a brief moment). If you´re not sure just use the one that does more damage.

 

[:mad:]

Zelda vs. Kirby.

60:40 in Zelda's advantage?

wut.

 

[Kewkky]

No one will have experience against pure Zeldas, so no matter what people say, they don't have "evidence" to back up their claims.

I have a Pure Zelda maining friend, and he is quite competitive I assure you. But with no claims and by wasting lots of words in a post that will probably echo in the background of this empty discussion, my 65:35 rating in Kirby's advantage will hold no weight, even if I say it's because Zelda's attacks are laggy and if you know this, you can wait out her attack and fall with any attack/run in for a grab with almost no chance of failure (and let's not forget the predictable, linear recovery of Zelda's that can be used against her even if she's returning from high up)... And her usmash is so hard to SDI that it's much better to just DI downwards and momentum cancel as soon as you start flying off... Inhaling is a bad idea since she can break it extremely easy and probably kill you for it with an fsmash... Her grab is so slow you can actually see it and spotdodge in time... Her Din's Fire can be evaded/blocked with a bair... When she's in the air, it's easy to see when she'll fair/bair you according to your positions (if she's next to you, she'll most probably try to sweetspot a bair/fair since Kirby can die quite fast)... Our bair and mobility combination is seriously an almost impossible combo to bypass since she lacks the ability to outspeed us (she attacks while we're in the air, we come down with a falling bair>ftilt on her while her attack's ending frames are still up)...

Then again, i have no solid proof (or visual, in the form of videos) to back up my info, so feel free to ignore my 65:35 Kirby's Favor (I'm actually being generous) post if needed.



Oh, and I didn't answer till now cuz no one was saying anything, but i saw 55:45 Kirby's, and just because she has the killing power doesn't mean she will kill a kirby everytime she throws out a smash/fair/bair/bthrow, especially considering the cons that we can easily take advantage off.

PS: Yeah, her nair and Nayru's is fast, but if you consider them strongly, you might as well be saying "I always fall for my opponent's nair, it's the only move that hits me".

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Zelda vs. Kirby.

60:40 in Zelda's advantage?

wut.

That ratio is waaayyy old, from the time when people though Zelda was good.

65:35 Kirby is still too high. 55:45 would be much more accurate.