Official Kirby Matchup Thread, now discussing: LUCAS!!!

[Percon]

Why is every matchup 55-45 or 50-50? >_> MU discussions just go in circles forever. It's hard to agree on something when no character ***** the other with an infinite or something. blah

 

[SkylerSilver]

Why is every matchup 55-45 or 50-50? >_> MU discussions just go in circles forever. It's hard to agree on something when no character ***** the other with an infinite or something. blah

Well Kirby isnt a great character IMO He's one of those characters that isnt improving.

55:45 Kirby

 

[Lord Viper]

Why is every matchup 55-45 or 50-50? >_> MU discussions just go in circles forever. It's hard to agree on something when no character ***** the other with an infinite or something. blah

☆ I'll mostly say it's because we either underestimate the characters on the match up, (that would be Zelda), or overestimate the characters done, (that would be Sonic, Sheik, Olimar, and now Fox). But I guess it's mostly because Kirby doesn't have anything super broken like the S tier characters I suppose, though he does have a game breaker strategies. ☆

 

[Lightning93]

You guys are still honestly underestimating Fox... he's one of the characters whose gameplay has changed a LOT since the start of the year, contrary to what Skyler says about Kirby...

 

[thrillagorilla]

You guys are still honestly underestimating Fox... he's one of the characters whose gameplay has changed a LOT since the start of the year, contrary to what Skyler says about Kirby...

QFT.

The biggest thing to happen to Kirby's meta-game since f-throw -> u-air more or less is the ninja-spike. I still think there might be a little bit of room left for improvement for the character, but it's going to take dedication equal to that of the Sonic community to actually flush it out (most of what I am thinking of comes from d-tilt, interestingly enough). Fox's meta-game on the other hand has improved drastically, and is still improving. Like I said in my fist Fox discussion post, I'm willing to go 55-45 Kirby but no more.

 

[Kewkky]

You guys are still honestly underestimating Fox... he's one of the characters whose gameplay has changed a LOT since the start of the year, contrary to what Skyler says about Kirby...

Ultimately, EVERY single Character Board community says we're underestimating or underrating their character, then the majority of Kirby mains take the comments and agree with them, making it seem like it's actually harder than it seems.

OBVIOUSLY we know how top-level character mains play: not predictable, avoids gimping, SDIs great, DI's and momentum cancels, follows DI, and has excellent reaction speed... THE POINT IS! A top-level Kirby will beat a top-level Fox easier and more times than the vice-versa result...

And now I think you guys are underestimating and underrating Kirby. Fox is mid-tier for a reason, he can't have safe options all the time, whereas Kirby can, for example... Not always will you guys be able to pull off what you say you can, but yes always will we be able to pull off what WE can (easier to land guaranteed combos, easier to land our kill move, easier to come back to the stage, easier to keep an advantage... The only thing you beat us is in speed, but take on a careful Kirby mainer with fast reaction speed and you've just met your match).

 

[thrillagorilla]

Eh. I'm getting tired of this. If you (cumulative, not singular) don't want to listen, fine. It's exactly like the Falco discussion, just like I thought it would be. At least the Fox mains posting here have a better understanding of the MU than most of the Falcos did (and thank you for posting, I had feared that I would be alone here ). Wait until you meet a Fox or Falco that knows the MU, then get back to me. I'll try to finish up my summary by the end of the week.

 

[C~Dog]

(most of what I am thinking of comes from d-tilt, interestingly enough).

You mean like, um... d-tilt trip to down angled f-tilt lock or something? Would that even work? xD

 

[Lightning93]

The thing is, it's not even good DI, fast reaction time, etc. which makes Fox good in this MU. Those are the basics, but character specifically Fox's speed actually makes his combos more reliable to do damage and eventually kill. All of which me and Thrilla have tried to explain. Yes, it's situational, but the sheer amount of possibilities we have overrule this fact.

Most Foxes highly believe if it weren't for a few REALLY bad matchups (Shiek for example, Pika actually has been getting somewhat easier) he would be moving up the tier-list. Please don't resort to: well Kirby is higher up the tier-list, so he obviously has more options that a Fox would. This is completely false, and examples include Fox vs. Snake, DDD, DK, MK, etc...

 

[MK26]

yeah, fox isnt lower on the tier list than kirby because hes a worse character...its because hes made unviable because of the 3/4 **** matchups hes got. the bBrawl guys didnt even need to give fox anything else once they got rid of the chaingrabs/tilt lock/paralyzer lock.

How fox does against kirby tho...

 

[Percon]

Ugh, matchup discussions are so annoying.

I think we should just agree on the "range" of the matchup, then discuss the best way to fight the character, not which character has an advantage margin of 10%, which isn't very useful to know.

So, Kirby vs Fox:

-No real chaingrabs or locks or anything
-No character has anything that completely tips the matchup in their favor
-They both die at kinda similar percents
-Neither needs a secondary for this matchup

So... the matchup "range" is from 60-40 to 40-60 depending on playstyles. Done. Why do we care so much that it's 55-45 anyway? It doesn't change how either character plays, nor does it change how good they are overall.

After we settle on a matchup "range", just talk about how to fight the character, ie. Kirby's fsmash goes through Fox Illusion, punish him if he recovers onstage (it's a simple example, but everyone can agree on it, because it's fact).

All I ever see in these discussions is "kirby can shut stuff down lolol" and "a good fox would never do that lololol" to try and tip the matchup ratio by 5 which doesn't really teach new people that much about fighting the character.

In retrospect I shouldn't have posted my opinion on the matchup ratio since it doesn't help.

tl;dr: Matchup discussions always go in circles... it's tiring.

 

[Tiersie]

Percon is like... The only kirby main with common sense.


I actually stopped taking MU's seriously for a while know. It's nice for basics, but the ratio's don't mean crap.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Percon makes a whole lot of sense, actually...

but to please everybody who really wants a number, I'd say it's 55-45 for Kirby.

Fox can outmaneuver kirby, has quite good combos against him, and can kill him mad early... He also outcamps him slightly (kirby duck lawl), has a decent gimp chance at times, and should be able to safely recover every time. Fox can also dash shield through generic wall spaced bairs to land a grab or usmash.

All that said, Kirby slightly outzones Fox, and his good grab and followups make it hard for Fox to attack him safely... especially since he is so short.

I haven't really lost to a Kirby player, but I don't care for the match all that much, so I put it slightly in Kirby's favor.

 

[Lord Viper]

Percon is like... The only kirby main with common sense.

☆ Rude as hell, but I guess you have your reasons. =/ ☆

☆ Now I'm going to give up on looking at match up now. =/ ☆

☆ And you copy from me. )=< ☆

 

[Lovely]

Maybe every match up threads should be write up's instead of ratios. That would clear most of the character is better than this drama.

 

[Lightning93]

I think everyone is either sick of MU discussions, or just has already ignored the ratios and went onto the bulk of the MU. Ratios give a great idea, but like it's been said it doesn't teach you anything in itself.

I would say this is anywhere from 55:45 to 45:55.

 

[Kewkky]

I've been storming out of MU discussions and going back for a while now... Don't know why it's "common sense" to not care about MU discussions, since it's what helps newcomers understand what they shouldn't be doing.


Plus, I had it in my mindset a long time ago, that:

1) We all have different playstyles, and some are less skilled than others. If a Kirby comes in (or the other character's main) and says they keep ****** the other character, for all we know they're not playing good at all, since people always want video proof.

2) People take video proof too seriously. Remember that the people WILL play differently towards you, and they play that way against each other because they might know how the other plays, and punishes accordingly... He might play against you differently, so don't go watching videos and agreeing that X character beats Y character.

3) Whatever number you guys end up putting up, it's not changing how easy/hard the MU is FOR ME in practice, so I couldn't care less in a sense. In other occasions, I DO care because sometimes the numbers are just so ******** that I have to try and say something about it.

4) Like Percon said, people will start saying things like "Oh, but a good X character mainer won't do this" or "Well X character can do this and that, which limits your options"... Which really frustrates me because they're practically saying we've never fought good character mains, or don't know how a good player can play...

5) Some people (like me) agree on one ratio, and others agree on another, and no one is ever convinced that the other one might be right. Me, I find it impossible for me to lost to a Fox mainer in a match, but I'm sure some Foxes have beat Kirbies, and other Kirbies feel different about the whole thing... Then you're told that the other Fox is doing it wrong, and we tell them that the Kirby is doing it wrong, and we never get anywhere...

I find MU discussions too stupid, and how they're biased to people's opinions on their mains ,whether it's a positive bias (I say Kirby is too good and should be above Lucario and below Pikachu) or negative bias (some Kirby mains have said Kirby sucks and is mediocre, dunno who they were but I remember reading it in different places). Some people will find most MUs even or disadvantaged, and others will find advantages which are never agreed on... Which only brings frustration. I literally have more fun hanging around Tactical Discussion, General Discussion and other such places, than in Character Discussion boards these days, since most I see here are people complaining about how Kirby should drop and how crappy he is, when IMHO he shouldn't, and it creates conflict.


... I wanted to say something else but I forgot, so w/e. EDIT: Remembered! What I meant by Fox's options being less than Kirby's due to the tier list positioning... You know what makes Fox as unviable as you guys say? His character traits, like his fastfalling which makes him too comboable, which is also BAD considering he's not a heavy character... If you're saying Kirby's ability to combo him amazingly well, compared to HIS ability to combo Kirby isn't a huge determining factor in the ratio of the MU, then I literally don't know what Kirby needs to do to gain advantages... Especially while also considering that Kirby's comboability beats Fox's in this MU due to Kirby's spacey+lightweight properties.

 

[SnowballBob33]

To talk about MU's you need MU exp and not hypotheticals. My friend plays kirby and I feel like its definitely in Kirby's favor. As far as the ratio, I say 60:40, because it is an uphill battle for fox with him getting punished heavily for slight flaws.

Kirby is small, so fair is not good as an approach unless he is floating. Bair works less often, and uair is darn impossible. Dair and nair are about the aerials you can use on the ground.

He can crouch and avoid all lasers so you have to approach. His grab range is very far, meaning your spacing has to be better than average at low %s or else you take 50 from cg or a lot of damage from utilt. Off the stage, if kirby is floating directly up, you can shine spike him but its risky. If fox is hit off the stage with bair or something and is left to firefox, he's basically dead because dair lasts long and spikes.

Fsmash kills early near the edge or at least can lead to gimps to kill, and fox has usmash.

Its winnable for fox, because I have beaten my friend in close matches, but kirby only has to use simple spacing and cgs to win and its possible for kirby to catch you with something gay that will kill rack up damage/you early.

 

[Tiersie]

☆ Rude as hell, but I guess you have your reasons. =/ ☆






☆ And you copy from me. )=< ☆

My reasons behind stopping to care about MU ratios are:

1. The kirby MU thread is flooded by people who are plain not that good. I'll say right off the bat that I have a great deal of respect for Kewwky and thrilla, but people like SNO and ninja kirby nick, jiovanni etc. that in my opinion aren't really repping kirby should not have a great deal to say in this MU discussion.

2. People will always be biased towards their character ( although the kirby mains all seem to be REALLY pessimistic to me). MU discussion are just cheap arguments about which character they think is better. Using a LOT of super theory brothers and waay to little actually practical material as evidence.

Percon makes sense because he described the basics of a real MU discussion is a few paragraphs.

tl;dr: Ur doin it rong.



Oh and I only copied you because you make sense too

 

[A1lion835]

Well, it looks like it's time to start a new discussion. 55-45 Kirby seems to be the general ratio, right?

 

[jiovanni007]

I agree, funny thing is since this discussion started I picked up Fox and in about a week he's on par with my Kirby.

 

[Lightning93]

55:45 Kirby sounds reasonable, not perfect, but it gives the right idea.

 

[A1lion835]

Okay. Any suggestions for next matchup? Here's the remaining list of characters (tier order):

​

First suggestion is the one we do.

 

[Lightning93]

Alright, thanks guys for the discussion, feel free to pick up Fox and drop by anytime!

 

[MK26]

Ness gogogo

55:45

Discuss.

 

[thrillagorilla]

Thank you, Fox mains for stopping by!

Mario was done a little while ago on their boards, but my opinion has changed a tad since the last discussion (not enough to warrant a re-discuss). If we pick Ness, I will not say anything. Ness is my own personal worst MU. That said, any character on the list is fine.

 

[Lord Viper]

☆ I main both Ness and Kirby, not only that fought with them with the same character names I said. I can agree with discussing him. ☆

 

[jiovanni007]

D3, he's the most common in tourney play on the list and should get priority IMO.

 

[A1lion835]

I just remembered that D3 discussed us recently. Someone (I forget who) sort of told me that last discussion, lol.


Alright, thank you for helping with the discussion! Her are some things to discuss:

1. Neutrals. Which are good for each char, which are bad?

2. What should each char be doing? Not be doing? Be watching out for?

3. Who will be gimping who most of the time, or will it be about the same for each?

4. Inhale. Should Kirby take Ness's power or keep inhale open?

5. What are some CP's for each side? Bans?

6. A list of pros and cons, for each character, would be awesome.

Something like:

Kirby's Pros and Cons.

Pros:
+ blah blah blah
Cons:
- blah blah blah

Ness's Pros and Cons.

Pros:
+ blah blah blah
Cons:
- blah blah blah

Also remember to explain why!

Discuss.

 

[jiovanni007]

I just remembered that D3 discussed us recently. Someone (I forget who) sort of told me that last discussion, lol.


Alright, thank you for helping with the discussion! Her are some things to discuss:

1. Neutrals. Which are good for each char, which are bad?

2. What should each char be doing? Not be doing? Be watching out for?

3. Who will be gimping who most of the time, or will it be about the same for each?

4. Inhale. Should Kirby take Ness's power or keep inhale open?

5. What are some CP's for each side? Bans?

6. A list of pros and cons, for each character, would be awesome.

Something like:



Also remember to explain why!

Discuss.

doesn't mean that we can't discuss him, discussing Ness before D3 is a bit out of priority I think. I've fought 2 ness's in tourney play (not counting low tier tourney's) and one of them was a good friend of mine. Solid 60:40 IMO, I've never had problems. I have a meeting at 11 so I'll make a writeup later.

 

[*JuriHan*]

Ness, like Lucas is spike bait when recovering off the side with PK thunder, also you can gimp them with an aerial. Ness' best kill moves is his back throw and f-smash, but we can kill him earlier than he can kill us. Of course, you can never drop your guard against him because PK thunder kills extremely early, but I wouldn't call it reliable. He will try to PK fire> grab you so always DI out of that. Ness is a small target so short hopping aerials is pretty important here. I would ban final destination, because he can camp with PK fire easier and it's also easier to hit with PK thunder. I really don't see any advantages he has over us, so I would say this MU is in Kirby's favor.

 

[Uffe]

Kirby is forced to approach. I'm pretty sure Ness' aerial movement is better than Kirby's, too. His fair and nair are pretty good, his bair probably trades hits with Kirby's, I can't remember. But as long as Ness' bair is sweet-spotted, which is common, it could very well be lights out for Kirby. You can gimp Ness, obviously, but good luck with that. You can try and get him off the stage, but even if you do, you have to get him further down before actually gimping him.

Kirby can kill early on with his dair > f-smash if he can get it to work. His Hammer is lethal, fairly slow and short ranged but good at killing as well. He could inhale Ness off the stage, but a smart player probably won't fall for the bait and instead use PK Thunder or PK Fire. And speaking of PK Fire > Grab, I don't think any Ness main does that anymore. Same with PKF > Bat. Anyway, I'll be back. I don't really think this match up changed since the last time, so I'll just throw out a 50:50 like last time.

 

[*JuriHan*]

And speaking of PK Fire > Grab, I don't think any Ness main does that anymore. Same with PKF > Bat. Anyway, I'll be back. I don't really think this match up changed since the last time, so I'll just throw out a 50:50 like last time.

lol they do it to me and it never works

 

[GreyClover]

On the ground Kirby beats Ness. I'm not saying Ness is completely horrible on the ground, t's just that we have better options than him. Ness's grab is slow and it lacks range, just be careful of his dash grabs. If you're at high percents and you get grabbed you'll be eating a Bthrow. At low percents Ness can Dthrow into chains like Fair or Nair. Then there's the Bair, it's very likely it will be sweet spotted. A sweet spotted offstage Bair can kill at mid percents, even low percents if you're close to the blast zones. A Fsmash can kill sometimes, if it's tippered it can kill at 80%. In the air it's like tied. Ness has a great Fair and Bair though Kirby's aerials are about just has good. Ness can be gimped, a Bair I think can stop pk thunder or you can Dair spike him if he's recovering from below. You on the other hand cannot be gimped as often. A Bair like I said before can push you back really far and a Dair will spike at ****ing 0%. idk what stage to counterpick, maybe Frigate Orpheon? Overall it's more of Kirby's favor imo, 55:45.

 

[Tiersie]

Ness is a small target so short hopping aerials is pretty important here.

Please do tell when you don't need to short hop your aerials.

 

[Uffe]

I think if you want to gimp Ness, assuming you get him in a bad position, you'd most likely be safer using your Stone. Going for a back air or down air is a little more risky.

 

[Lord Viper]

I think if you want to gimp Ness, assuming you get him in a bad position, you'd most likely be safer using your Stone. Going for a back air or down air is a little more risky.

☆ This is true mostly because Ness is pretty quick with his PK Thunder, so if your not in his face by the time he uses that move, you won't able to punish him unless you want an electric missile to the face, that kind of messes with the distance of his PK Thunder, but it's very strong kill move to risk that high, lol. To add, Ness can go through Stone if he launches at the right moment without damage, if you use Stone before or after he launches, then he will get hit. ☆

☆ Also, Yo-yo edgeguard FTW!!! XD ☆

 

[Uffe]

Well Kirby's Stone will shorten the distance if Ness' PKT2 does hit it. Depending on how far away Ness is from the stage could simply determine whether or not he'll make it back. And you're right about Ness' PKT. Unlike Lucas' it's a lot quicker. I can't tell you how many times I struck my opponents with that today. XD

 

[*JuriHan*]

I gimp Nesses with a simple f-air. However I don't think the matchup is 60:40.. it feels more like 55:45 in Kirby's favor.

 

[§leepy God]

♪ Take Ness to Pokemon Stadium 2 you'll die, take Ness to Delfino Plaza you'll die, take Ness to Castle Siege you'll die, take Ness to Lylat Cruise you'll die.... take Ness to Pirate Ship..... WHA HA HA HA HA HA.... you'll die faster. X3 †