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[Pi]

Hey got a quick question...how can i practice ledge teching by myself? I've heard Motion Sensor Bombs on the edge but I've been trying this and can't seem to get any effect from it. Would anyone be able to explain Ledge Teching a little more in depth than the Melee Term Guide did?

If you're not teching the bombs, you're timing for pressing L/R is off

what character do you use? Might help give an easier to understand way of timing your tech

but basically you want to press L/R (all the way down) 20 frames before you hit the wall from the attack

so for marth/samus/characters with quick UB's the motion is pretty quick;
Up B
Hold control stick toward the stage
Press L/R

and all that needs to happen before you get hit by the projectile

Characters like fox/falco obviously need to wait a bit

You should also make sure that you're TRYING to sweet spot because sweetspot > tech
Especially characters who don't have a safe option of getting back onto the stage after the tech

Just fool around with your timing of pressing R/L until you get it, remember it, and then you'll get it 100%

 

[Pilot]

Lately I've been playing Falcon a lot and would consider him my main.

This explanation helps a lot, much appreciated

 

[Pi]

Lately I've been playing Falcon a lot and would consider him my main.

This explanation helps a lot, much appreciated

well for falcon you aren't going to be able to true 'sweet spot'
but you do want to be trying for it
because if you get hit above the stage you can't tech any way
sweet spotting will almost guarantee that you'll at least be able to tech

I heard someone say that level 7s? or 9 Game and Watches will attack you as you recover allowing for a tech
I think I tried this once w/ falcon and was able to do it successfully
if anyone can remember the proper level, or if you want to go fool around
I would recommend this over motion sensor bombs
because it will help you practicing sweet spotting

 

[X1-12]

a few questions, sorry i've been asking loads recently

erm.. why is yoshi's 64 banned? and why is kongo jungle banned? (NOT jungle japes, and NOT kongo jungle n64, the other one)



and a biggy

how is your knockback determined? what are the factors? presumably the strength of the attack, but then is it weight or how fast you fall the determines how far you go? cause i've hit a bowser up (M2 F-air) at the same % as a falco but the bowser has gone further, surely his higher weight should make him go less far? or is it something like weight is how far sideways you go and fast fallingness how high?

 

[Tamoo]

Yoshi's 64 is banned cos of rediculous cloud camping. Imagine going a stock ahead as fox or jiggs and just camping that cloud at the end forever.
The 'other one' is banned cos of the rock. Your at a huge disadvantage if you have to approach someone on the rock.

Lol, we should play on those stages tomorrow, i'll show u then

Knockback takes into a lot of factors. How fast you fall determines how far you get knocked back vertically, but not horizontally I believe. Weight is taken into account for both horizontal and vertical knockback. Then there's obv things like strength of the move and what percent your on, and more insignificant things like stale moves.

Probably missing something here

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

initial velocity is determined by the strength of the move and the weight of the character. total knockback also takes in effect how strong gravity is pulling you down (aka fall speed), which is why floatier characters go further upwards than fast fallers even if they have more weight.


edit- ninja tamoo

 

[TresChikon]

Weight is taken into account for both horizontal and vertical knockback.

Are you positive? I don't believe weight affects vertical knockback. Samus weighs a bunch, and can buff out Marth-like attacks, but dies at nothing from Fox-esque attacks. While Fox can survive some nasty usmashes, but is still very light.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

remember, gravity is a constant downward force, and for some reason in this universe it pulls at different strengths for different characters. The ones where it pulls the hardest (fox, falco, falcon) die the hardest off the top, because gravity just pulls them down stronger.

and actually, i think i remember reading somewhere if you hit 2 different chars with the same move at the same ending percent that they will have the same initial knockback/velocity, which means weight isn't involved in knockback.

 

[Tamoo]

Hmm dunno, samus may be heavy but is also one of the slowest fallers in the game, hence early off the top kills. She falls as slow if not slower than jiggs but dies much later than jiggs off the top, this is what im basing it off really. And its why chars like DK and bowser take sooo long to kill off the top despite not having any particular fast falling speed.

I could be wrong but i think im right :/

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

i could keep speculating but i dont know for sure either.

its probably a combination of all of them.

 

[Magus420]

This is a comparison of the effects of falling speed on vertical survivability. It's almost entirely top speed, and fall speed acceleration (Fox being the fastest by a good margin) does very little. Higher acceleration only causes a noticeable difference with very weak KBs like when they wouldn't even reach a lower platform's height from the hit.

You can isolate the fall speed factor from weight in survivability because throw KB is unaffected by weight, unlike normal attacks. This is the % on DL64 that Mewtwo's u-throw KOs them.

Fall Speed - NTSC v1.0 (and vertical throw survivability)

196 - Falco

188 - Fox
187 - Captain Falcon

165 - Roy > Donkey Kong

154 - Sheik > Link = Young Link
153 - Marth > Ganondorf
151 - Bowser

144 - Pikachu > Pichu
143 - Yoshi

139 - Ness
137 - Mr Game & Watch
136 - Dr Mario = Mario

133 - Ice Climbers
131 - Peach = Kirby = Mewtwo
130 - Luigi
129 - Samus
127 - Zelda

121 - Jigglypuff




Here's the weight list, but with the warm/cold fall speed colors. Though there is more emphasis on fall speed, notice how in the list after this the ones with the warmer colors (faster fallers) that are also closer to the top here are the ones that live longer vertically:

Weight - NTSC v1.0

117 - Bowser
116
115
114 - Donkey Kong
113
112
111
110 - Samus
109 - Ganondorf
108 - Yoshi
107
106
105
104 - Captain Falcon / Link
103
102
101
100 - Dr Mario / Luigi / Mario
099
098
097
096
095
094 - Ness
093
092
091
090 - Peach / Sheik / Zelda
089
088 - Ice Climbers
087 - Marth
086
085 - Mewtwo / Roy / Young Link
084
083
082
081
080 - Falco / Pikachu
079
078
077
076
075 - Fox
074
073
072
071
070 - Kirby
069
068
067
066
065
064
063
062
061
060 - Jigglypuff / Mr Game & Watch
059
058
057
056
055 - Pichu




Now this is how long they actually end up living vertically against attacks, using Captain Falcon's stomp on Final Destination as the measurement (version 1.0, and Fountain of Dreams was used in cases of a tie):

Vertical Survivability - NTSC v1.0 (not throws)

171 - Captain Falcon
170
169
168
167
166
165
164 - Donkey Kong
163
162
161
160
159
158
157 - Falco
156 - Bowser
155
154
153
152 - Ganondorf
151
150 - Link
149
148
147 - Yoshi > Fox
146
145
144
143
142
141 - Roy
140 - Sheik
139
138
137 - Dr Mario = Mario
136 - Samus > Marth
135 - Young Link
134 - Ness
133 - Luigi
132
131
130
129
128
127
126 - Ice Climbers = Pikachu
125
124 - Peach
123
122 - Zelda
121 - Mewtwo
120
119
118
117
116
115
114
113
112
111 - Kirby
110
109
108
107
106 - Pichu = Mr Game & Watch
105
104
103
102
101
100
099
098 - Jigglypuff

 

[Abstract]

i could keep speculating but i dont know for sure either.

its probably a combination of all of them.

Guys , since your here why do people have a hard time learning and mastering all the techniques took me 3 months

My little brother has a hard time shuffling how do i help him

 

[Tamoo]

Magus: Holy snaps!
What an amazing guy

Abstract: Its all about the time you put into it, and finding ways to implement it into your game. Time=reward, that's what i found.

 

[X1-12]

Guys , since your here why do people have a hard time learning and mastering all the techniques took me 3 months

My little brother has a hard time shuffling how do i help him

try practising all the parts individually, try short hopping until l you can do it 100% of the time, then try short hop to fast falling then try and incorporate the L-cancelling

 

[Abstract]

Magus: Holy snaps!
What an amazing guy

Abstract: Its all about the time you put into it, and finding ways to implement it into your game. Time=reward, that's what i found.

I know i bought melee like 6 months, and it only took me roughly 3 mothns to master the techz not including flashy worthless **** .

It pisses me off though, because he praises me for techz skills

So how do i teach him shuffling, wd,...etc

We have a player pool that has about 20-30 players we do team and singles

I want him to be my doubles partner, but he needs to know the basic AT's

How do i help him with that especially Shffling and WDing

Any help is appreciated

 

[X1-12]

SHFFLing, seriously, just tell him to try short hopping over and over, until he can do it 100% of the time. then trying to put in an aerial, and fastfalling it until you can do that 100% of the time too, then try to L-cancel the aerials

also fo WD'ing try doing it in training mode on slower speeds, also try jumping with Y or X its much easier for most people than pressing up, when he can WD in 1/4 speed try it at 1/2 then at normal speed

 

[onedayafter7]

what he said. ^^^^. but i don't really find that wavedashing at a slower speed helps that much. I would just say, practice with a character that is easy to wavedash with. say...Luigi. Since its amazingly obvious when youve done it right. Then slowly work to whatever character you main.

 

[X1-12]

The other way to help with wavedashing is by just jumping and trying to waveland it, It will allows you to have time to move your fingers to the right positions It'll also help you get the idea of what its like to wavedash, also as onedayafter said if you practise with luigi you'll know definitely when its working

 

[TresChikon]

Samus is the easiest character to WD with, her minimal jumplag and long WD really helps.

Marth seems to me like the easiest to learn SHFFLs with since his slow predictable jump makes it easy to practice.

 

[Abstract]

SHFFLing, seriously, just tell him to try short hopping over and over, until he can do it 100% of the time. then trying to put in an aerial, and fastfalling it until you can do that 100% of the time too, then try to L-cancel the aerials

also fo WD'ing try doing it in training mode on slower speeds, also try jumping with Y or X its much easier for most people than pressing up, when he can WD in 1/4 speed try it at 1/2 then at normal speed

He's got shffling down and wding now for tech chase is next any pointers

 

[LAX_]

tell him to air dodge diagonaly first.
then do it faster
then faster
then faster
etc

 

[Abstract]

tell him to air dodge diagonaly first.
then do it faster
then faster
then faster
etc

Thanks, now he needs tech chasing....

 

[X1-12]

Thanks, now he needs tech chasing....

try this....
dash-dance.... if he rolls left, move left, if he rolls right follow him right

 

[Abstract]

try this....
dash-dance.... if he rolls left, move left, if he rolls right follow him right

Alright, yes i do like apples; how can he JC grab with Up on the control stick and L+A

 

[Pi]

Alright, yes i do like apples; how can he JC grab with Up on the control stick and L+A

what do you mean how can he
it's the same mechanics as JC grabbing with UP and Z, or X and Z or Y and and R and A etc etc etc.
get the timing down
personally I JC grab with X and Z
I know people who JC with UP though so it's not out of the question

the way I was able to learn any technique is I would juss practice it till I would fall into bad habits surrounding it and stop improving, and get frustrated, at that point I would stop, come back in a few hours/next day and I would be where I left off if not a little more consistent and able to improve once again


Questions about throws for magus or anyone who knows about frames
What is the window for inputting DI on a frame perfect grab -> throw
does it vary with different characters and throws?


also a less specific question
is it possible to DI and up or down throw up or down and have it cause any difference?

 

[X1-12]

what do you mean how can he
it's the same mechanics as JC grabbing with UP and Z, or X and Z or Y and and R and A etc etc etc.
get the timing down
personally I JC grab with X and Z
I know people who JC with UP though so it's not out of the question

the way I was able to learn any technique is I would juss practice it till I would fall into bad habits surrounding it and stop improving, and get frustrated, at that point I would stop, come back in a few hours/next day and I would be where I left off if not a little more consistent and able to improve once again


Questions about throws for magus or anyone who knows about frames
What is the window for inputting DI on a frame perfect grab -> throw
does it vary with different characters and throws?


also a less specific question
is it possible to DI and up or down throw up or down and have it cause any difference?

To be honest i think using R+A to grab is a bad habit to get into, it just over complicates things, and also its probably much easier JC'ing the grab by using X or Y then Z as using R+A is just making it harder for your fingers, it also means that when you JC it you won't do an up-smash by accident


Also knihT you can't SDI throws in the same was you can attacks as Throws do not have Hitlag (with the exception of one (i think its jiggs F-throw but not sure)) so the only DI you can do is ASDI which is read the frame before the throw is released, for example if you are thrown on frame 8 then you need to be holding a direction on either stick during frame 7 and the timing for this from the start of a frame perfect grab -> throw differs between characters and throws, for example mario's backthrow takes much longer to release than his Up-throw, but just to be sure as soon as you are grabbed hold a direction on the stick until after you've been thrown

 

[Proverbs]

Really? I recall being able to DI Peach's f-throw regularly. At incredibly high percents I wouldn't go far if I DI'ed up, or up and in. It might've been ASDI, but I'd be surprised it'd have that large of an effect.

 

[Pi]

Hm, I'm not so sure that you simply have to be holding a direction the frame before the grab release, I think I remember some what testing this and found roughly that you need to input your DI before the throw is even initiated but I'm not sure


Also this brings up another question, what type of DI is it that changes your trajectory? Is that ASDI? I thought ASDI juss moved you in the direction you were holding a little bit, but does that change your flight path?

 

[TresChikon]

Every throw has window that reads your DI input which exists a few frames before the throw ends, so just be sure you're holding the right direction within this window so you don't get owned.

Also, the DI must be perpendicular to the original trajectory. DIing an upthrow upwards won't matter since it is along the trajectory.

The DI that changes trajectory is Normal DI; Smash DI and Automatic Smash DI simply changes your position during hitlag.

 

[X1-12]

Hm, I'm not so sure that you simply have to be holding a direction the frame before the grab release, I think I remember some what testing this and found roughly that you need to input your DI before the throw is even initiated but I'm not sure


Also this brings up another question, what type of DI is it that changes your trajectory? Is that ASDI? I thought ASDI juss moved you in the direction you were holding a little bit, but does that change your flight path?

Try a peach F-throw, I tested this on a marth at 100%, first holding no direction for SDI you move around 45 degree angle, if you hold control stick diagonal up+in you move at more like a 60% angle


EDIT: You can also get back to the ledge on FD form the ASDI'd throw with just a double jump and maybe 1 side+b but without you'd e hard pressed to get back on at all

 

[Proverbs]

^ That's interesting. That implies that trajectory DI (or just 'regular DI') exists on at least Peach's f-throw. I wonder about the others. I'm not sure I completely understand it, though. I'll test it with friends when I get back home for Christmas break.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

DIing parallel to trajectory (for a move that sends you exactly up, parallel is up or down) has absolutely no effect.

moves like sheik's dthrow or marth's uthrow send you straight up so DIing up or down does nothing and is the same as not DIing.

you can't ASDI anything you can't SDI. 95% of grabs you can't SDI and i'm pretty sure peach's fthrow is in the 95%.

 

[X1-12]

DIing parallel to trajectory (for a move that sends you exactly up, parallel is up or down) has absolutely no effect.

moves like sheik's dthrow or marth's uthrow send you straight up so DIing up or down does nothing and is the same as not DIing.

you can't ASDI anything you can't SDI. 95% of grabs you can't SDI and i'm pretty sure peach's fthrow is in the 95%.

I'm not really sure what you're saying I've tested peach's F-throw and you CAN ASDI it, are you saying you can't? sorry i'm not trying to start an argument and what i said just sounded bad but feel free to test it yourself, marth 100% F-throw him, first hold nothing on the marths directional stick then again at same percentage hold diagonal up and in, there's a definite difference in the trajectory

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

that isn't ASDI. thats called DI.

 

[X1-12]

surely if it influences your trajectory its ASDI? if you hold diagonal up and in straight after you get thrown you'll move yourself in but it wont affect the angle of trajectory whereas if you hold it during the throw you move at a different angle

 

[TresChikon]

ASDI is synonymous will SDI whereas it lets you change your position upon experiencing hitlag, the only difference being you only get one input.

NDI, or regular DI, is that type of DI that lets you influence the trajectory throws. You CANNOT SDI nor can you ASDI throws with the exception of Jigglypuff's f-throw.

Do you understand the mechanics of ASDI?

 

[Pi]

ASDI and SDI both move your character slightly in the direction you press
ASDI happens immediately after hitlag
after that, it's all normal DI
SDI happens when you are in hitlag

throws have no hitlag, so they can't be ASDI'd or SDI'd, save for jiggs forward throw.

 

[X1-12]

Do you understand the mechanics of ASDI?

apparantly not.....


god i sound like a right scrubs but surely regular DI is what happens when say you jump from standing then when in midair hold left or right and move left/right?

surely thats different to what happens to the throw? because you are actually getting thrown at a different angle, its not just getting thrown at the same angle then like 'bending' the angle to a different one




EDIT: Magus help

All throws have:
Invincibility: 1-8

DI on throws is read ON the frame immediately before release, so if it releases on frame 8 you would need to be holding it before frame 7 to then be read on frame 7. Also, releases that are faster than around 10-12 or so (including the weight speed change if applicable) will be very difficult to impossible to DI a certain way in time if you throw immediately and they weren't expecting to be grabbed.

surely this is ASDI rather than just DI?

 

[TresChikon]

Everyone starts somewhere, I get stuff horribly wrong all the time.

Throws don't have hitlag and hitlag makes it possible for ASDI and SDI. Jigg's f-throw has hitlag and therefore, makes ASDI and SDI possible.

What you are seeing is Regular Directional Influence. Regular DI influences the original trajectory, so yes, it does bend the actual angle.

What Magus is talking about is still Regular DI, if Peach f-throws you and it take X amount of frames to complete, you need to (should) hold upwards on X-1 frames in order to influence the trajectory upwards.

What you were thinking of is Smash DI and Automatic Smash DI, which can also dramatically help you survive stuff. However, throws aren't affected (I wish they were though.)

ASDI allows you to change your position during the final frame of hitlag (which is nonexistent during throws,) and it gets it's input from your D-stick (hence automatic.) If you get F-smashed by Marth and you hold up, you get Regular DI which influences your trajectory to be higher than normal and you get one input of ASDI, and since you were holding up, you're character shifts himself slightly upwards and takes the hit slightly higher, making the F-smash not as brutal.

The C-stick can be used to out prioritize the D-stick in certain situations where you want to perform Armada techs or double-stick teching, but you'll learn that at a later time. I don't want to confuse you yet.

SDI is the exact same thing as ASDI, but goes farther and instead of getting only one input at the last frame of hitlag, you can input a direction for EVERY frame of hitlag (pretty broken eh?) however since we're just mortals we'd be more than fine with just 1 or 2 inputs.

All you need to do is hit these points with your D-stick during hitlag and you will go in that direction during that frame.

(credit to Magus)

What this is useful for is during edgeguards, if you aim for the ledge and get hit by something long like Marth's sword, you can use SDI to inch yourself towards the ledge and enable a ledgetech.

You can also use it to drastically affect the trajectory of things. You don't influence the trajectory per se, but you change where you get hit, which really matters. For example, if you kneed while grounded, you go at a much harsher angle, however if you SDI upwards and take it airborne, you would dramatically improve your chances of survival.

SDI can be used in tandem with ASDI to avoid stuff like jab resets, but you can touch up on that subject later.

 

[X1-12]

Everyone starts somewhere, I get stuff horribly wrong all the time.

Throws don't have hitlag and hitlag makes it possible for ASDI and SDI. Jigg's f-throw has hitlag and therefore, makes ASDI and SDI possible.

What you are seeing is Regular Directional Influence. Regular DI influences the original trajectory, so yes, it does bend the actual angle.

What Magus is talking about is still Regular DI, if Peach f-throws you and it take X amount of frames to complete, you need to (should) hold upwards on X-1 frames in order to influence the trajectory upwards.

What you were thinking of is Smash DI and Automatic Smash DI, which can also dramatically help you survive stuff. However, throws aren't affected (I wish they were though.)

ASDI allows you to change your position during the final frame of hitlag (which is nonexistent during throws,) and it gets it's input from your D-stick (hence automatic.) If you get F-smashed by Marth and you hold up, you get Regular DI which influences your trajectory to be higher than normal and you get one input of ASDI, and since you were holding up, you're character shifts himself slightly upwards and takes the hit slightly higher, making the F-smash not as brutal.

The C-stick can be used to out prioritize the D-stick in certain situations where you want to perform Armada techs or double-stick teching, but you'll learn that at a later time. I don't want to confuse you yet.

SDI is the exact same thing as ASDI, but goes farther and instead of getting only one input at the last frame of hitlag, you can input a direction for EVERY frame of hitlag (pretty broken eh?) however since we're just mortals we'd be more than fine with just 1 or 2 inputs.

All you need to do is hit these points with your D-stick during hitlag and you will go in that direction during that frame.

(credit to Magus)

What this is useful for is during edgeguards, if you aim for the ledge and get hit by something long like Marth's sword, you can use SDI to inch yourself towards the ledge and enable a ledgetech.

You can also use it to drastically affect the trajectory of things. You don't influence the trajectory per se, but you change where you get hit, which really matters. For example, if you kneed while grounded, you go at a much harsher angle, however if you SDI upwards and take it airborne, you would dramatically improve your chances of survival.

SDI can be used in tandem with ASDI to avoid stuff like jab resets, but you can touch up on that subject later.

a bit patronising just to clear it up I can ledge-tech and I did know most of that but I was under the impression that when you hold in on throws to influence the angle you are thrown at it was ASDI when actually its just regular DI

Sorry for making you write out like a whole essay , but if i find somone who doesn't know that i might quote you on it