Official E for All Firsthand Impressions DISCUSSION Thread

[h1roshi]

well it looks like diddy kong is going to be a pretty good character. seeing as how i stated i wanted to main him, its good to hear that he will be pretty good...peace

-hiroshi

 

[Cyntalan Maelstrom]

snip

You're talkin' apples when I'm talkin' oranges here. Over here, we have the graphics logic. Over there, we have the game logic. Two completely separate functions of the game. The game logic interprets everything from the user, computes, passes through to the graphics logic, and ignores it until the graphics logic says "okay, I'm done now". This goes for each individual object created in the program.

Typical programming etiquette should have graphics functions at the bottom of the barrel. Absolutely last thing to do. This means that what you see right before you this instant isn't necessarily what the game logic is thinking at the time. It's beyond that step. What looks like "almost touching the ground" to you visually is interpreted by the game logic as turning on a flag called, say, isLanding. This flag tells the game logic that it needs to pass the graphics logic information saying that the it needs to prepare to shift the model's current animation from attack to recoil and stand. Meanwhile, and keep in mind this is in the game logic, you have just told it to pull up the shield. In most cases, with an isAttacking or an isAirborne flag in operation, the shield button will do something else or nothing at all. However, at this isLanding flag, no command was told to the function that goes looking for an isShielding flag. Now it doesn't know what to do. If it were a poorly programmed game, it would crash. However, a simple error checker is in place to handle them. In the case of a character, it tells the game logic to go back to default position (another flag).

From here, the game logic now has to tell the graphics logic to go back to default as well. All of this has happened in one frame (one tick). The game logic has now cleared out the flags and lets the graphics logic reset the model. The graphics logic, however, is one of the few major mechanics of the SSB engine that was greatly revamped from SSB to Melee, to accomodate a higher framerate, a higher detailed series of models, and a lot more demands than its N64 counterpart. When it comes to the visual representation, SSB's logic says "wait until animation is finished, then clip to standing position". This results in a jerk from attack to standing position. If the N64 was capable of running this part at a better refresh rate, it would be more noticeable, however still jerky.

The Melee graphics logic, however, has a bit more demanding requirements for its model animation than SSB. The demand for 60 FPS at all times and a minimum number of keyframes to be shown for each model at all points of animation. Because of this minimum, it forces to run through less frames between each keyframe than normally designed in order to catch back up to the game logic's expectations. Unlike SSB's logic, Melee says "interrupt the current animation if possible". The combination of the interruption and the higher framerate yield a much more fluid and speedy shift from attack to standing.

When it comes down to it, it wasn't so much that SSB's inferior graphical capabilities caused the cancel to work, but how it was working visually. Behind the scenes, it works the same both ways.

 

[Johnknight1]

How does charging it work? Like what do you do to charge it differently that a quick smash....I would like to hear more about this...

woaw, this got intresting. Chargeable c-stick, and you say it got better=??? Man, that sounds neat, since you make it sound good. Also, check out if you could jump (preferably short hop) up (diagonal, actually) towards a upper platform, and try air dodging at the right moment, like you would a waveland from below, but let the momentum of a air dodge carry you. If you do a wave tech, I got dibbs on the name. Wave Knight/Wave *enter you name here* (two names)!

Seriously, try that. If you time it right, maybe you could like neo-wavedash or something. Try it on passable platforms at least (assuming you haven't tried it already). It could become a new advanced tech in competitive play, if my theory is correct. However I doubt it, but meah...it's worth a try...maybe!

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

looking at the dark link (who looks awesome BTW) vs. pit vid..... it appears that pummeling someone with a final smash in reserves can cause them to release the orb.... WHAT!?!

 

[TheCatPhysician]

You're talkin' apples when I'm talkin' oranges here. Over here, we have the graphics logic. Over there, we have the game logic. Two completely separate functions of the game. The game logic interprets everything from the user, computes, passes through to the graphics logic, and ignores it until the graphics logic says "okay, I'm done now". This goes for each individual object created in the program.

Typical programming etiquette should have graphics functions at the bottom of the barrel. Absolutely last thing to do. This means that what you see right before you this instant isn't necessarily what the game logic is thinking at the time. It's beyond that step. What looks like "almost touching the ground" to you visually is interpreted by the game logic as turning on a flag called, say, isLanding. This flag tells the game logic that it needs to pass the graphics logic information saying that the it needs to prepare to shift the model's current animation from attack to recoil and stand. Meanwhile, and keep in mind this is in the game logic, you have just told it to pull up the shield. In most cases, with an isAttacking or an isAirborne flag in operation, the shield button will do something else or nothing at all. However, at this isLanding flag, no command was told to the function that goes looking for an isShielding flag. Now it doesn't know what to do. If it were a poorly programmed game, it would crash. However, a simple error checker is in place to handle them. In the case of a character, it tells the game logic to go back to default position (another flag).

From here, the game logic now has to tell the graphics logic to go back to default as well. All of this has happened in one frame (one tick). The game logic has now cleared out the flags and lets the graphics logic reset the model. The graphics logic, however, is one of the few major mechanics of the SSB engine that was greatly revamped from SSB to Melee, to accomodate a higher framerate, a higher detailed series of models, and a lot more demands than its N64 counterpart. When it comes to the visual representation, SSB's logic says "wait until animation is finished, then clip to standing position". This results in a jerk from attack to standing position. If the N64 was capable of running this part at a better refresh rate, it would be more noticeable, however still jerky.

The Melee graphics logic, however, has a bit more demanding requirements for its model animation than SSB. The demand for 60 FPS at all times and a minimum number of keyframes to be shown for each model at all points of animation. Because of this minimum, it forces to run through less frames between each keyframe than normally designed in order to catch back up to the game logic's expectations. Unlike SSB's logic, Melee says "interrupt the current animation if possible". The combination of the interruption and the higher framerate yield a much more fluid and speedy shift from attack to standing.

When it comes down to it, it wasn't so much that SSB's inferior graphical capabilities caused the cancel to work, but how it was working visually. Behind the scenes, it works the same both ways.

you seem to be missing a few things here though. let's go with the isLanding flag business. the l cancel window of opportunity takes place when the character is actually IN THE AIR. if you hit l when the character has already hit the ground, it doesn't work. all you said about how the game wouldn't know how to handle the different flags should still apply to the situation of someone buffering a shield while in the middle of their landing animation, but it doesn't. this is probably something you just didn't know about l-cancelling.

also, why would it only have to force the animation for buffering a shield? you can press any other button instead of l r or z in that 6 frame window, but the animation will not be cancelled. also, l cancelling only applies to aerial A attacks, not b or anything else. these conditions for l cancelling were specifally programmed in.

 

[Zauron]

looking at the dark link (who looks awesome BTW) vs. pit vid..... it appears that pummeling someone with a final smash in reserves can cause them to release the orb.... WHAT!?!

Yeah dude, we knew that over a week ago...

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Yeah dude, we knew that over a week ago...

I don't tend to frequent these pages... good to know.

 

[TaFoKiNtS]

I was wondering if people coudl mash out of peach's final smash?

Anyway thought of a deadly combo for teams if final smashes are in.

Jiggs (assuming she'll be playable)/Peach
-Peach final smashes, jigg/peach both heal and get rests off on both opponents

 

[Mini Mic]

So you can't start as Zamus

 

[KirbySSB]

So you can't start as Zamus

well it is a demo, who knows

 

[Xaron Fisk]

I predict that a year from now, nobody will remember these arguments and everyone, including the competitive Melee players, will LOVE Brawl.

Mark my words!

I agree because I was exactly like that with melee! I'm thinking this might be a good time to dust off the old ssb64 cartridge. I'm not trying to go into brawl with a case of meleebrain to poison my perception. XD

 

[Dantarion]

Stuff

You can't just say this unless you actually know how melee and smash 64 work.


In SSB64, Z-Cancel was a glitch. If you pushed the shield button before landing, the animation for landing NEVER HAPPENS. That was a mistake on the programmers part there.(Link dair->standing)

In Melee, L-Cancel was a technique. If you pushed L or R before landing, the landing animation would go TWICE AS FAST. That, is something they would have to program in.

Don't write stuff stating that you know the internals of smash unless you helped program it.

 

[munkus beaver]

Z canceling was actually on the SSB64 website as an advanced techniquen if I recall correctly.

 

[ChaosKnight]

All you people going again should bring there GC controllers again and again sooner or later they'll let you use them unless they arent allowed on the demo =(

 

[lukintosh]

Is Ike good? I read that he's slow but is that it? How does he match up against the other characters?

 

[ihavespaceblondes]

All you people going again should bring there GC controllers again and again sooner or later they'll let you use them unless they arent allowed on the demo =(

Do the Wii developers' kits even have GC controller slots?

 

[Xanderous]

Do the Wii developers' kits even have GC controller slots?

The demo isn't being played on a development kit...

 

[Cyntalan Maelstrom]

you seem to be missing a few things here though. let's go with the isLanding flag business. the l cancel window of opportunity takes place when the character is actually IN THE AIR. if you hit l when the character has already hit the ground, it doesn't work. all you said about how the game wouldn't know how to handle the different flags should still apply to the situation of someone buffering a shield while in the middle of their landing animation, but it doesn't. this is probably something you just didn't know about l-cancelling.

also, why would it only have to force the animation for buffering a shield? you can press any other button instead of l r or z in that 6 frame window, but the animation will not be cancelled. also, l cancelling only applies to aerial A attacks, not b or anything else. these conditions for l cancelling were specifally programmed in.

...

you keep missing the same thing. You're in the air VISUALLY. This has absolutely nothing to do with the game logic. The game logic, however, sees what's happening after what is happening visually. The graphics are the very last thing to be processed in the engine, and thusly, it'll be the last thing that shows everything I'm talking about. In the game logic, iot already sees isLanding and is preparing the graphics logic to show this visually. It hasn't happened yet.

 

[A Diamond For Disease]

I think my head just exploded from all this info lol.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

so if you can't start as Zamus, how could she be played in tourneys?

Items are off and she needs to use one to transform

 

[ihavespaceblondes]

so if you can't start as Zamus, how could she be played in tourneys?

Items are off and she needs to use one to transform

Items are off in Melee tournaments. How do you know the ruleset for Brawl tournaments?

The demo isn't being played on a development kit...

According to IGN it was at the press showing, so I assumed it still was. Are they using actual Wiis now? If so, someone needs to hit the eject button and ****ing run with that disk XD

 

[camzaman]

I love how most people on these boards have wasted a lot of their life because Sakurai made such fun, amazing games, and now they turn on him b/c Brawl is different but still awesome, quite sad and funny, really.

 

[Phlemingo]

I doubt people have "wasted" most of their life on SSB.

 

[Kirby knight]

so if you can't start as Zamus, how could she be played in tourneys?

Items are off and she needs to use one to transform

Please don't forget that this is a "demo" things may change when the completed version of Brawl is released.

-Knight

 

[NES n00b]

I love how most people on these boards have wasted a lot of their life because Sakurai made such fun, amazing games, and now they turn on him b/c Brawl is different but still awesome, quite sad and funny, really.

I never heard that one before. Very creative.

They need to get new vids. . . .where the people do not look so akward. >_< That might be expecting alot though since this is a new game.

 

[raphtmarqui]

Yea, we need some videos of smash veterans playing. The only videos we have are showing stupid people playing.

 

[Jar'd]

Yesterday was pretty fun. I met a few members here while waiting in line to go in (I was the short one ). Fox seemed a little nerfed , but my opinion probably isn't the most trustworthy one.
I'm planning on trying out some other characters when I go today. Hopefully it won't be too crowded (yesterday was great).

 

[Zauron]

so if you can't start as Zamus, how could she be played in tourneys?

Items are off and she needs to use one to transform

Don't assume Smash Orbs will be off in tourneys, they are a special case and there is a lot of debate already about having them on. After all, they are more than just an item - they are the key to unlocking a character-specific move. Banning them would mean denying people part of their characters' moveset, which means you would be throwing off balancing the devs have done. Have you noticed how some of the more powerful smashes have severe downsides, and how some characters that seem awesome have sub-par Final Smashes and vice versa? FS moves are part of the balancing of characters in the game, so I woudn't assume they would be banned just yet. Especially if they can be turned on with all other items off including exploding capsules.

 

[Kentalish]

from the videos ive seen no crates exploding

 

[.Yoshi]

so if you can't start as Zamus, how could she be played in tourneys?

Items are off and she needs to use one to transform

Zamus could be a selectable character like Sheik was "going to be" a while ago before Melee was released. Since Samus doesn't become Zamus with a Special attack, rather a Final Smash, it's highly unlikely you'll simply be able to tranform into the other at the start of the match.

 

[Crispy4001]

Too much work has gone into the Zero Suit Samus character for her to only be playable under a specific circumstance.

 

[Rickety]

I don't want to get involved in any sort of debate, but when was L-Canceling discovered in Melee? And when was Z-Canceling discovered in the original 64 game?

 

[Kentalish]

gimpy and inks found a new move they call it ink droping check his thread its neet

 

[Zek]

Zamus could be a selectable character like Sheik was "going to be" a while ago before Melee was released. Since Samus doesn't become Zamus with a Special attack, rather a Final Smash, it's highly unlikely you'll simply be able to tranform into the other at the start of the match.

Yeah, but ZSS's Final Smash turns her back into Samus. They're completely interchangable and one isn't intended to be better than the other, so I think it makes perfect sense to be able to start the game with either character, and not so much sense to waste 2 character slots when the mechanism is already there. I'm sure Sakurai realizes that everybody wants that to be an option so I'm hoping he knows better than to leave it out of the final game.

 

[maxpower1227]

Forgive me if this has already been discussed (thread is tl;dr), but someone needs to tell me if Link's taunts include his sword flourish from TP and his karate kid pose from SSB64.

 

[antpod]

Forgive me if this has already been discussed (thread is tl;dr), but someone needs to tell me if Link's taunts include his sword flourish from TP and his karate kid pose from SSB64.

In one of the videos posted in the video thread you see him do the sword flourish from TP :D

 

[bluekitsune13]

I think it was the video with Dark Link in which he did the flourish taunt IIRC.

 

[nitro-blazer]

Diddy's dash attack is his cartwheel. and to be really honest I wasn't even using his B moves. We were actually playing matches and I was using his aerial moves which are pretty **** good. His fair is like Mario's in SSB and his dtilt is a MUCH quicker version of DK's. His downsmash is pretty **** powerful as well. He had the best horizontal movement in the air it felt to me, but I may be wrong.

No idea on the peanuts, you gotta realize all of the matches were way hectic because of how they were played.

Diddy's moves are kind of strange.

You have a fox esque uair in the trajectory and hitstun, but it doesn't send them as far. His fair (or was it his bair?) is like Mario's fair from SSB 64 and has nice range, speed, and proirity. His dair is a quicker form of DK's and actually is decently strong for a meteor in this game. *thinks hard* I don't remember the rest.

Basically I was wall of paining with the fair (or was it bair? my brain is fried from SO much info at once) and it was very effective and strong. His downsmash was decently strong and I felt safe jumping out to ledgeguard people.

From DarkGea.

Diddy seems good. That is good. Hopefully his specials aren't useless, as those add flavour to the game.

 

[maxpower1227]

I think it was the video with Dark Link in which he did the flourish taunt IIRC.

Sweet.. yeah, it's hard to see, but it's there. Awesome.

 

[SGX]

Legitimate question, if anyone can answer it...

Has short hopping been changed any?

(i.e. is it easier/harder to do, are there multiple levels of shorthopping, anything)