Official E for All Firsthand Impressions DISCUSSION Thread

[Japanese Monk]

@ kentalicious

I posted all the colors Ive gathered from different impressions.

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=121130&page=2

just look for my post.

 

[Cyntalan Maelstrom]

*sigh*

how many billions of times must i explain this?

L-canceling- not a glitch. It's a modified form of z-canceling from 64, which WAS a glitch. L-canceling was CREATED.

The problem with that theory is that you're thinking that SSB64 was heavily played at high level to discover said glitch before the VERY rushed Melee came out, a game that basically took the original engine and improved upon it. It was missed TWICE. Here in Brawl, we have a redesigned engine altogether. Perhaps using the original engine as a guideline, but not much untouched reused code. A lot of the holes are gone.

Wavedashing-it's an abuse of the physics engine, and in teh debug menu you can see that it's been named. It was discovered by the devs, and INTENTIONALLY LEFT IN.

Yeah, there's a difference between intentionally left in and "oh ****, this game's due in a month!" and missing/ignoring one of many programmers notes saying "fix this eventually". Brawl fixed it.

Short hopping? That's an advanced tech. and it's far from a glitch. It was added in intentionally.

And it's still in Brawl. Wasn't talking about this. Was talking about the above two everyone's whining about.

Jump canceling the shine? a modified form of shine canceling, shine canceling in 64 once again WAS a glitch, but i was incredibly easy to multishine by landing, so it was changed. It's still in brawl somewhat, and was nerfed, because they made it too good. But they MADE it.

Once again, glitch that was discovered AFTER Melee. The developers did not have the time nor the knowledge then to realize how many holes were in the engine originally, and thus, we get a rushed game with the same holes from before. In Brawl, it's normal method is no longer there. People had to mess around and find it all over again. A half-fixed glitch.

Laser canceling? Once again, it was in 64, they left it in melee, they've left it in brawl. Not a glitch.

Special move canceling was proven gone in Brawl. It looks like now, Fox can just get more shots out in his jump. Kinda moot for Fox anyway, considering it was Falco that really took abuse with this, a character that has no chance of returning.

I'm assuming you're a random scrub who thinks advanced techs are stupid and glitches because he can't use them properly. I live in MD, i play against amazing people all the time, and even when i'm losing i don't make stupid excuses that have no basis in fact.

*looks at join date* Yeah... I'm just gonna ignore this one. Too easy.

 

[MetalMetaKnight]

Yea, im not much of a DK or diddy fan but DK looks more owning and Diddy looks like s funny monkry, he deserves better costumes

 

[silver777]

Tails as AT?

where?

 

[Vortok]

I got a favor to ask. Due to matters beyond my control (power outage + normal computer having a login password + person that knows the password being out of town for several days) I have to type on a PS3 with a keyboard. Problem is, there's a small character limit (about two average paragraphs) so I can't post a good summary in one post. And I don't wanna spam the impressions threads as that'll send tons of e-mails to those subscribed, even if a mod merges them later.

So would anyone be willing to merge multiple posts from me into one?
I can either post a new thread, or PM them all.

If you're willing to help, PM me. If I don't reply to you in 5 minutes, assume I picked someone else (dunno how many offers I'll get). EDIT: Got someone. Thanks for the offers to help!

Or if you know how to get around the PS3 character limit... PM that instead! lol

 

[smasher32]

so wavedashing = gone and peach = nerfed

 

[TheCatPhysician]

uh

anyone who thinks l/z cancelling are glitches either knows nothing of programming/game development, or just aren't thinking


STOP AND THINK


in melee, the properties of l-cancelling are if l, r, or z are pressed within 6 frames of landing an aerial a attack, half of the landing frames are removed. these conditions don't just come out of nowhere, they were PROGRAMMED.

 

[F@lc0-san]

RIP Bomb jumping.

Well thats just dadn, my Main may not be in due to him being a clone, and even IF he's in his moves will be diferent anyway.(Please dont ask who my main is, it should be obvious)

THEN I hear bomb jumping is DEAD...


D:

Oh well, Sonic, here I come!

...

Oh wait.

Heres hoping that Pokemon Trainer is good.

 

[D1]

Quit Life and No Johnz Brawl I guess will have more ppl dd camping to safety than wd camping if anything. Not like we haven't been dd caming in Melee already.

 

[nitro-blazer]

Who cares about the advanced techniques? Sure it's kinda sad to see them go but will it really make that big of a difference? I don't think there's one person out there who can beat someone ONLY because they can wavedash.

Anyway.

Diddy Kong: weird movement. His b-air is like Mario's and chains together really well; I used it 4-5 times in a row to kill someone off the side of Castle.

Heh, I'm liking how Diddy's sounding so far... And chance anyone got mechanics on his side and down specials?

 

[Kentalish]

^^^ holy **** i almost had a sezure staring at your sig

 

[AttackstorM]

can someone plz pm hugs to post every detail of his brawl findings in the first hand impressions thread especially the samus findings. thanx a million in advanced if some1 would pm him to do this

 

[Japanese Monk]

Im so mad they nerfed samus.

Nerfed knock back from missiles.

No bomb jumping.

Nerfed charge shot.

WTH? Id rather have all that back, SCREW ZSS!!!

 

[Rohins]

Anyone tried pivoting? Also, can you press down to cancel your run? Like run for a while, press down, and smash in the opposite direction?

 

[nealdt]

OH OH OH.

BREAKING NEWS.

HUGS IS THE FIRST PERSON TO EVER LOSE A BRAWL MONEY MATCH. He lost to Gimpyfish in a $1 + T-shirt match!

NO JOHNS HUGO.

 

[Salaad]

Rofl. Neal, can you describe what Fox's Fair is like to me? Pretty Please.

 

[nealdt]

The same. I don't know why people say it's better. But I don't like Fox and only used him long enough to see that I still don't like him.

 

[Cyntalan Maelstrom]

uh

anyone who thinks l/z cancelling are glitches either knows nothing of programming/game development, or just aren't thinking


STOP AND THINK


in melee, the properties of l-cancelling are if l, r, or z are pressed within 6 frames of landing an aerial a attack, half of the landing frames are removed. these conditions don't just come out of nowhere, they were PROGRAMMED.

I don't know if you were the guy I just spoke to on AIM or not, but if you aren't, I'll repeat it to you.

If you're looking at frames, you're looking at a completely different function of the game's programming than the actual game logic. The reason l/z-canceling exists is due to one thing, and one thing alone: a simple error check. When you do an aerial attack, it sets a flag. When you are touching ground, it sets a flag. When you are activating your shield, it sets a flag. The game does not know how to handle all these flags at once to tell the graphics logic what to do next. The game logic then dumps the error to the checker which says "go to default position", or "standing position". From here, it then tells the graphics logic to do this ASAP. Meanwhile, over in the graphics logic, it see you're still in attack animation. So, it does what it can to get you back to default position.

Now here's where you see your difference between Melee and SSB64. SSB64's graphics engine was very primitive by comparison to Melee. It wasn't capable of 60 FPS, it was very susceptible to slowdown, and the framerate could very well dip below 30 FPS often. This graphics logic took this interpretation and immediately skipped to default position as soon as the attack animation was completed. This resulted in a very jerky maneuver from point A (attack) to point B (stand). Meanwhile, over at Melee's engine, one of the key functions of it was to do everything possible to maintain 60 FPS. It takes a hell of a lot to make this engine slow down. It also has a limiter to how it will allow for frameskipping, to maintain fluid animation. It deciphers what it needs to maintain a fluid animation, then performs the necessary frameskip, which you see as a sped up model. The only difference you're seeing between Melee and SSB64 is HOW it handles this.

Now, without actually seeing the code, one can neither prove or disprove this. However, look at Melee. It was an incredibly rushed game, way more than Brawl has been, and with less staff. They had half an engine to work off of that was "working good enough", and built off of that. However, due to their time constraints, none could be bothered at fixing the holes in the original engine's code that they probably did indeed notice (the code behind why wavedashing works was flagged, just never attended to). It's very apparent how rushed this product was considering all the other obscene (from a programmers eye) glitches. They didn't harm the game's playability at all, so they were ignored in order to work on more pressing matters in such a short timespan.

Now as for a reason to why they aren't in Brawl. Brawl's dev time is a bit more than what Melee had (approximately 18 months now with the delay), as well as a considerably larger staff to work on the project. They redesigned the engine using Melee as a mere blueprint, and had much more time and manpower to fix the problems they couldn't get to in Melee. Now, in the process of taking this time into fixing the aforementioned glitches while developing more new functionality to the engine, they could very well open up a new can of worms that they, once again due to being rushed, may not fix. They may be beneficial for the player, they may be gamebreaking, they may be annoying, or they may be benign. We won't know unless we actually accept what's been done and move on, thinking of this game as its own rather than a revision to its predecessor.

 

[po pimpus]

OH OH OH.

BREAKING NEWS.

HUGS IS THE FIRST PERSON TO EVER LOSE A BRAWL MONEY MATCH. He lost to Gimpyfish in a $1 + T-shirt match!

NO JOHNS HUGO.

Poor HugS... I really hope this talk of them 'nerfing' Samus is just people getting used to the CC and the new game engine. Of all the characters, Samus really didn't need to be tinkered with.

IF IT AIN'T BROKE DON'T FIX IT!

Anxiously awaiting HugS and Gimpyfish's impressions on Bowser and Samus...

 

[Zauron]

I don't know if you were the guy I just spoke to on AIM or not, but if you aren't, I'll repeat it to you.

If you're looking at frames, you're looking at a completely different function of the game's programming than the actual game logic. The reason l/z-canceling exists is due to one thing, and one thing alone: a simple error check. When you do an aerial attack, it sets a flag. When you are touching ground, it sets a flag. When you are activating your shield, it sets a flag. The game does not know how to handle all these flags at once to tell the graphics logic what to do next. The game logic then dumps the error to the checker which says "go to default position", or "standing position". From here, it then tells the graphics logic to do this ASAP. Meanwhile, over in the graphics logic, it see you're still in attack animation. So, it does what it can to get you back to default position.

Now here's where you see your difference between Melee and SSB64. SSB64's graphics engine was very primitive by comparison to Melee. It wasn't capable of 60 FPS, it was very susceptible to slowdown, and the framerate could very well dip below 30 FPS often. This graphics logic took this interpretation and immediately skipped to default position as soon as the attack animation was completed. This resulted in a very jerky maneuver from point A (attack) to point B (stand). Meanwhile, over at Melee's engine, one of the key functions of it was to do everything possible to maintain 60 FPS. It takes a hell of a lot to make this engine slow down. It also has a limiter to how it will allow for frameskipping, to maintain fluid animation. It deciphers what it needs to maintain a fluid animation, then performs the necessary frameskip, which you see as a sped up model. The only difference you're seeing between Melee and SSB64 is HOW it handles this.

Now, without actually seeing the code, one can neither prove or disprove this. However, look at Melee. It was an incredibly rushed game, way more than Brawl has been, and with less staff. They had half an engine to work off of that was "working good enough", and built off of that. However, due to their time constraints, none could be bothered at fixing the holes in the original engine's code that they probably did indeed notice (the code behind why wavedashing works was flagged, just never attended to). It's very apparent how rushed this product was considering all the other obscene (from a programmers eye) glitches. They didn't harm the game's playability at all, so they were ignored in order to work on more pressing matters in such a short timespan.

Now as for a reason to why they aren't in Brawl. Brawl's dev time is a bit more than what Melee had (approximately 18 months now with the delay), as well as a considerably larger staff to work on the project. They redesigned the engine using Melee as a mere blueprint, and had much more time and manpower to fix the problems they couldn't get to in Melee. Now, in the process of taking this time into fixing the aforementioned glitches while developing more new functionality to the engine, they could very well open up a new can of worms that they, once again due to being rushed, may not fix. They may be beneficial for the player, they may be gamebreaking, they may be annoying, or they may be benign. We won't know unless we actually accept what's been done and move on, thinking of this game as its own rather than a revision to its predecessor.

The only problem with this is that, way back when, the official Melee web site (now the Dojo) actually mentioned L-cancelling as a technique. It just wasn't in the manual.

I believe it was removed in Brawl due to the need for smoother WiFi. Latency correcting prediction algorithms would be harder with L-cancelling as a factor that could affect the time it would take to be in a "ready" state again after doing an air attack, not to mention its one extra input that would be necessary to send across the network that is no longer necessary. When considering this, they probably also realized that L-cancelling didn't really add any strategy to the metagame at all - there's no reason NOT to L-cancel every air attack, so it was really just an extra button press to benefit you if you had good timing, and could actually detract from the focus on strategy. Goes against the design goal of Smash - easy-to-do moves so you can focus on the metagame.

It was a glitch in N64, they decided to make it a semi-hidden feature in Melee thinking it was a neat extra to give people an edge, then WiFi and more time to think about it made them change their mind in Brawl. That's my theory.

 

[ecrone]

I want to hear a little more about Pit.

No one seems to be saying anything about/using him much....

 

[Cyntalan Maelstrom]

The only problem with this is that, way back when, the official Melee web site (now the Dojo) actually mentioned L-cancelling as a technique. It just wasn't in the manual.

You know, I've pointed the glitch concept out several times for the last 4 years, and every time someone eventually brings this up. To this day, no one's actually been able to link to source material saying such.

 

[Zauron]

You know, I've pointed the glitch concept out several times for the last 4 years, and every time someone eventually brings this up. To this day, no one's actually been able to link to source material saying such.

That's probably because its not there any more, but I'm not telling you this second-hand - I actually saw the info on the web site myself years ago.

 

[Johnknight1]

Hello all, I just got back from E For All.

Time to start by saying this: most of the professional smashers were able to make a good transition from Melee mechanics (Except for HugS, no johns) to the Brawl mechanics. Just to inform you, the game feels very different from Melee. Alot of characters in the game play differently, even characters such as Fox have modifications to their playing style. Alot of the control preferance was more towards the singe Wii remote rather than the Classic Controler (Even though the CC was infinitly better). I personally has a smoother transition to Melee than most players. Most of us are on a high level of technicality in the game.

Just to get quick to the engine details... Yes, wavedashing is gone, as the Air Dodge is influnced by your momentum. One good thing is that you are able to attack/ jump after and Air Dodge, which I personally enjoyed. L canceling didn't seem to be within the demo either, but it seemed unecessary for most moves, as the lag reduction/hit stun on the moves allowed you to do some chains, even though some moves had alot of lag. Now, the most shocking thing to me...DI. The DI is insane beyond reasoning. I was able to Smash DI out of several combos and live at percentages up to 200%

There are so many things that I can say about the engine change, but the one thing I can say that was dramatic was the floaty engine. Even characters such as Fox were able to maintain aerial attacking fluently, yet, he still had the same Fast Faller Feel. You may think that you can pull an easy Air Combo, but there is more to it than one might think.

There is still alot of stuff I want to cover, but i'm tired, hungry and I want to make some shout outs:

t!mmy & t0mmy- You guys are awsome, period. I had fun hanging with you guys. I'm still sad that I lost my first MetaKnight ditto with you t!mmy, i'll get you back. t0mmy, you're just **** with Pikachu, but everyone was stealing your style up their with the green bandana Pikachu. n00bs.

HugS- No Johns, period. MetaKnight can't kill for sh*t, so just DI. kthxbai

Neal- You're mean.

Gimpyfish- Once again, you're too good with Boozer. Just make sure you take a note that I did the first ever Drillshine in Brawl. You did the first Bowsercide though, lol. Money Match tommorow?

That one Mario- ****...

Woaw, I heard the t!mmy and t0mmy in the background, but I didn't know they were real pros! XD With that loud women, who was talking to them, lol! I thought they were ignorant pridful people (or were joking), but it appears I was wrong. As always!

Anyways, that sounds good to me. You sound satified, so I might as well accept it. However, you should not accept those two booth b**ches' voices. Don't you know **** is illegal=???

 

[Cyntalan Maelstrom]

That's probably because its not there any more, but I'm not telling you this second-hand - I actually saw the info on the web site myself years ago.

No, I mean, for the last 4 years this has been said, and with the same "it used to be there, but now it's not" story. Without a source, it's baseless. And for 4 years, I've said as much. Now, don't go tellin' me that for the first two years of this game's lifespan it had to be rediscovered AFTER it was posted on the official site (remember: the only people aware of L-Cancelling for a good year into the game's lifespan were people that knew about it in SSB64).

 

[djkunai]

This game was terrible. It's way too slow, and they removed everything that gave it a competitive edge. They effectively ruined Smash. My impressions may have been heightened if I could at least use a ****ing GameCube controller, but instead I was left with a bad game and worse control. It's a button masher now.

 

[Igneous42]

This game was terrible. It's way too slow, and they removed everything that gave it a competitive edge. They effectively ruined Smash. My impressions may have been heightened if I could at least use a ****ing GameCube controller, but instead I was left with a bad game and worse control. It's a button masher now.

they removed a couple things that were glitches to begin with now it sucks?

I thought it was awesome. I expected this though, a lot (not all by any means) of advanced players would get mad because it's too different

 

[.Yoshi]

This game was terrible. It's way too slow, and they removed everything that gave it a competitive edge. They effectively ruined Smash. My impressions may have been heightened if I could at least use a ****ing GameCube controller, but instead I was left with a bad game and worse control. It's a button masher now.

Well if it were called Melee 2, then it'd be a different story, or Dairantou DX-2.

It's not Brawl's fault you couldn't use your Gamecube controller.

 

[Kentalish]

lol well if u dont get the game cuz its fixed a bit be my guest one noob down

 

[djkunai]

they removed a couple things that were glitches to begin with now it sucks?

I thought it was awesome. I expected this though, a lot (not all by any means) of advanced players would get mad because it's too different

The C-stick was not a glitch, and I don't believe L-canceling was either. Wavedashing/Shuffling/Dash dancing being removed didn't bother me as much as those two things.

 

[AlphaDragoon2002]

The C-stick was not a glitch, and I don't believe L-canceling was either. Wavedashing/Shuffling/Dash dancing being removed didn't bother me as much as those two things.

...Except C-Stick wasn't removed. In fact, it was strengthed to include chargable Smashes and tilts via C-Stick. Next?

 

[djkunai]

lol well if u dont get the game cuz its fixed a bit be my guest one noob down

You really don't seem to understand how different it is. Play it first then post your opinion.

 

[Cyntalan Maelstrom]

The C-stick was not a glitch, and I don't believe L-canceling was either. Wavedashing/Shuffling/Dash dancing being removed didn't bother me as much as those two things.

C-sticking was not a glitch. It was instead an after-the-fact function thrown onto the stick for multiplayer to cover up what the original function was for, camera zoom. This is why there is no C-sticking in single player.

 

[ecrone]

C-sticking was not a glitch. It was instead an after-the-fact function thrown onto the stick for multiplayer to cover up what the original function was for, camera zoom. This is why there is no C-sticking in single player.

You think C-Sticking will be in the single player of Brawl? I sorta hope so, thats the main way I smash...

 

[AlphaDragoon2002]

You think C-Sticking will be in the single player of Brawl? I sorta hope so, thats the main way I smash...

Probably will. Like I said, they improved C-Stick Smashes so it would seem that Sakurai sees it as a valid game mechanic.

 

[TheCatPhysician]

If you're looking at frames, you're looking at a completely different function of the game's programming than the actual game logic. The reason l/z-canceling exists is due to one thing, and one thing alone: a simple error check. When you do an aerial attack, it sets a flag. When you are touching ground, it sets a flag. When you are activating your shield, it sets a flag. The game does not know how to handle all these flags at once to tell the graphics logic what to do next. The game logic then dumps the error to the checker which says "go to default position", or "standing position". From here, it then tells the graphics logic to do this ASAP. Meanwhile, over in the graphics logic, it see you're still in attack animation. So, it does what it can to get you back to default position.

that is the stupidest thing i've seen posted in a while. really, look at what you wrote and think about it

ok

first of all l/z cancelling doesn't even have anything to do with shielding. you press l while you're in the air. also, where did the six frames limit come from? why doesn't it work if you press it 7 frames earlier?

even if it only cancels half the frames to get to the shield faster, why doesn't the shield come up? looking at it from the programming perspective, if you were buffering a shield while doing your aerial (not possible anyway), then by default it would wait until the character lands, finishes his/her landing animation (because as you can see playing the game, this is obviously what's programmed to happen next) and then it would go to the shield after that animation is done, just the same as if you were trying to do an attack, a dodge, a jump, or anything else. ONLY with pressing l r or z does it have this property where it cancels half the lag, so it was specifically programmed to happen.

Now here's where you see your difference between Melee and SSB64. SSB64's graphics engine was very primitive by comparison to Melee. It wasn't capable of 60 FPS, it was very susceptible to slowdown, and the framerate could very well dip below 30 FPS often. This graphics logic took this interpretation and immediately skipped to default position as soon as the attack animation was completed. This resulted in a very jerky maneuver from point A (attack) to point B (stand). Meanwhile, over at Melee's engine, one of the key functions of it was to do everything possible to maintain 60 FPS. It takes a hell of a lot to make this engine slow down. It also has a limiter to how it will allow for frameskipping, to maintain fluid animation. It deciphers what it needs to maintain a fluid animation, then performs the necessary frameskip, which you see as a sped up model. The only difference you're seeing between Melee and SSB64 is HOW it handles this.

ok, then basically you say that in smash 64, l cancelling cancelled all the lag because it had bad graphics/framerate slowdowns, and in melee it cancels half the frames because it has better graphics. wow that's hilarious

also, framerate has nothing to do with it. if it did, then that means l cancelling would be altering the framerate of the entire game, not just one character's animation.

no, i never talked to you on aim.

you're digging yourself a hole

 

[BrianM]

I'd rather they not **** with my C-stick. I don't want to do a **** tilt or a charge up, the whole reason I use the C-stick is so I can smash right away. If I wanted to charge up a smash, I'd do it myself with the A Button and Control Stick. I don't see myself doing F-tilts with the C-stick either, so why would they do that? :| Crouch canceling is hard to do because of this.

 

[AlphaDragoon2002]

I'd rather they not **** with my C-stick. I don't want to do a **** tilt or a charge up, the whole reason I use the C-stick is so I can smash right away. If I wanted to charge up a smash, I'd do it myself with the A Button and Control Stick. I don't see myself doing F-tilts with the C-stick either, so why would they do that? :| Crouch canceling is hard to do because of this.

Why are you whining? You can still quick Smash with C-Stick. IT ONLY GOT BETTER with charge/tilt capability.

 

[BrianM]

Why are you whining? You can still quick Smash with C-Stick. IT ONLY GOT BETTER with charge/tilt capability.

Because if I'm doing something with the control stick, I'd be doing a tilt when I don't even mean to. How is adding tilt capability really making things better? When you crouch cancel, you're holding down, and you're trying to do a downsmash, but instead you just do a dtilt.

 

[ecrone]

Why are you whining? You can still quick Smash with C-Stick. IT ONLY GOT BETTER with charge/tilt capability.

How does charging it work? Like what do you do to charge it differently that a quick smash....I would like to hear more about this...