Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[The Real Inferno]

dsmash isn't a kill move b/c it gets too decayed throughout a regular battle. All you have to do is stay behind wolf and he won't be able to kill you. He's really not very good.

lol Bair. Wolf spaces behind with Bair (it can kill too? omg) and meanwhile Downsmash is recharged after just one grab by Wolf due to him having a very fast pummel animation much like Lucario.

 

[Snowstalker]

TOP:

Snake (Obvious)
Meta Knight (Obvious)
Mr. Game & Watch (Powerful, good recovery, godlike priority, and he gives the finger)
Marth (Silly Sakurai, you never nerfed him)
Falco (An already good character with laser lock and chain grabs)
R.O.B (Disliked by some does not equal a bad character)

HIGH:

King Dedede (Kills at low percentages, heavy AND good recovery, chain grabs)
Captain Olimar (Olimar has loads of potential. Only thing preventing him from being a god is the god-awful recovery)
Toon Link (Fast, decent recovery, can rack up damage like crazy, but has trouble killing)
Wario (He's just crazy. Unpredicable, and great tourney results)
Pikachu (Definitely buffed. Similar to Melee Pika, but way better)
Ice Climbers (0-death combo, chain grabs, and Nana has a brain!)
Pit (Arrow spam, godlike recovery, racks up damage, has a terrible voice which distracts opponents)
Wolf (Recovery isn't good, but he's a beast. Literally
Donkey Kong (He's bigger, faster, and stronger than in Melee. Cookie for reference)
Kirby (An overall great character with amazing recovery, and a couple good KO moves)

MIDDLE:

Zelda (Light, but really powerful with KO moves. Uair, anyone?)
Lucario (Gets more dangerous as his damage level goes up, but a threat even at 0%)
Diddy Kong (Not as good as we initially thought, but still has facerape and bananas)
Fox (Good, but nothing compared to Melee Fox)
Lucas (Jimmy Neutron has evidently learned very strong psychic moves)
Luigi (Good KO moves, tons of recovery options for every situation, and an awesome taunt)
Zero Suit Samus (Fast, sneaky, and can distract perverted opponents)
Mario (An all-around, solid character. Not amazing or terrible)
Bowser (Powerful, but faster than expected of a giant turtle)
Ness (If Ness gets someone in the air, he will win)
Yoshi (Has the only wavedash in the game, can chain grab several high/top tier characters, and now has a third jump)

LOW:

Peach (Decent tourney results and great air game, but too **** easy to kill)
Pokemon Trainer (The Pokemon themselves would be mid, but the stamina thing kills Red and his Pokes)
Ike (Really, really strong, but slow, predictable, and punishable)
Sonic (Fast, but with slow attacks and terrible priority)
Shiek (Wow. Biggest nerf of all goes to Zelda's alter ego in OOT)
Link (The Hero of Time was, surprisingly, nerfed)

BOTTOM:

Samus (Another notable nerfing)
Ganondorf (Uber strong, but he can't outpace a dead snail)
Jigglypuff (Good air moves, but Rest sucks, and Jiggz is way too easy to kill)
Captian Falcon (A cross between Ganondorf and Sonic. Not a good thing)

 

[ShadowLink84]

I am somewhat annoyed that everyone keeps placing Sonic so very low despite the fact he is 24th in the tier listings.
-_-;

Seriously you have characters above him that are doing worse than him in the tourney rankings.

 

[Snowstalker]

Tourney results are important, but not everything.

 

[LinkSceptile333]

Where is the love for Ganondorf?

 

[Snowstalker]

As much as I like Ganon, he sucks in Brawl.

 

[Kiwikomix]

Tourney results say it's not really an option to put Pikachu and Toonie up there that high anymore. Tier lists are based off the present, not potential.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Being a PT mainer, I think the switching aspect actually puts him slightly higher than the individual Pokemon would be. Feel free to disagree.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Tourney results are important, but not everything.

yeah which is why people place Sonic in top 8 of worst characters when he is 24th out of 39th.

Tourney results are the MOST important, I find it funny that people enact a double standard concerning Sonic, Ike and a few other characters despite the tourney results showing otherwise.

yeah tourney results aren't everything, but they reflect on alot and if sonic is 24th then why should he be in the top 8 worst when he is far from it?

Clearly there is a double standard since people are using the tourney results to varying degrees.

Those tourney results reflect on many things, playstyle, matchups etc etc.

 

[Heavenly Spoon]

TOP:
Jigglypuff (Good air moves, but Rest sucks, and Jiggz is way too easy to kill)

Obviously any move able to kill everything below 90% (even DDD and snake), and MK at around 60-70% has to suck, yeah, excellent reasoning. But yeah, if only we had some awesome move like dair which would allow us to combo into rest...

Can people never come up with good (or at least decent) reasons to put Jiggly in bottom? I'm not saying she doesn't suck, it's just that you people seem to just assume something without even considering using that gray stuff which is rotting away in your heads :S

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Obviously any move able to kill everything below 90% (even DDD and snake), and MK at around 60-70% has to suck, yeah, excellent reasoning. But yeah, if only we had some awesome move like dair which would allow us to combo into rest...

Can people never come up with good (or at least decent) reasons to put Jiggly in bottom? I'm not saying she doesn't suck, it's just that you people seem to just assume something without even considering using that gray stuff which is rotting away in your heads :S

How about the fact that she probably has the slowest run in the game (even Old Man Gannondorf can outrun her) limiting her ground options, and her aerials have small hitboxes and can't combo well?

 

[DanGR]

Captain Olimar (Olimar has loads of potential. Only thing preventing him from being a god is the god-awful recovery) his recovery can be avoided. That excuse has gotten old fast.
Toon Link (Fast, decent recovery, can rack up damage like crazy, but has trouble killing)has trouble killing? since when? both upsmaash and fsmash kill well. Not to mention his crazy edgeguarding.

Donkey Kong (He's bigger, faster, and stronger than in Melee. Cookie for reference)I love that song. ^__^ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syDHNeIywrE

Zelda (Light, but really powerful with KO moves. Uair, anyone?)upair sucks. It's easily avoided.

Diddy Kong (Not as good as we initially thought, but still has facerape and bananas) Diddy has never been bad. What are you talking about??? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uV8NmhSBXmw

Sonic (Fast, but with slow attacks and terrible priority) his attacks aren't slow lol

Shiek (Wow. Biggest nerf of all goes to Zelda's alter ego in OOT) and this is why I quoted you. Sheik is good in this game you ******. She'll be up with Olimar and Lucario soon enough. What's wrong with her huh? Care to explain?

Captian Falcon (A cross between Ganondorf and Sonic. Not a good thing) I'd say that it's a good thing. He's better than Ol Maninboots.

10 charizards

 

[ShadowLink84]

Dangr the reason he could possibly support placing her low is due to the tourney results. Its really whats been affecting her. To be honest I don''t understand why she is so low tourney results wise.

 

[Morrigan]

TOP:

Snake (Obvious)
Meta Knight (Obvious)
Mr. Game & Watch (Powerful, good recovery, godlike priority, and he gives the finger)
Marth (Silly Sakurai, you never nerfed him)
Falco (An already good character with laser lock and chain grabs)
R.O.B (Disliked by some does not equal a bad character)

HIGH:

King Dedede (Kills at low percentages, heavy AND good recovery, chain grabs)
Captain Olimar (Olimar has loads of potential. Only thing preventing him from being a god is the god-awful recovery)
Toon Link (Fast, decent recovery, can rack up damage like crazy, but has trouble killing)
Wario (He's just crazy. Unpredicable, and great tourney results)
Pikachu (Definitely buffed. Similar to Melee Pika, but way better)
Ice Climbers (0-death combo, chain grabs, and Nana has a brain!)
Pit (Arrow spam, godlike recovery, racks up damage, has a terrible voice which distracts opponents)
Wolf (Recovery isn't good, but he's a beast. Literally
Donkey Kong (He's bigger, faster, and stronger than in Melee. Cookie for reference)
Kirby (An overall great character with amazing recovery, and a couple good KO moves)

MIDDLE:

Zelda (Light, but really powerful with KO moves. Uair, anyone?)
Lucario (Gets more dangerous as his damage level goes up, but a threat even at 0%)
Diddy Kong (Not as good as we initially thought, but still has facerape and bananas)
Fox (Good, but nothing compared to Melee Fox)
Lucas (Jimmy Neutron has evidently learned very strong psychic moves)
Luigi (Good KO moves, tons of recovery options for every situation, and an awesome taunt)
Zero Suit Samus (Fast, sneaky, and can distract perverted opponents)
Mario (An all-around, solid character. Not amazing or terrible)
Bowser (Powerful, but faster than expected of a giant turtle)
Ness (If Ness gets someone in the air, he will win)
Yoshi (Has the only wavedash in the game, can chain grab several high/top tier characters, and now has a third jump)

LOW:

Peach (Decent tourney results and great air game, but too **** easy to kill)
Pokemon Trainer (The Pokemon themselves would be mid, but the stamina thing kills Red and his Pokes)
Ike (Really, really strong, but slow, predictable, and punishable)
Sonic (Fast, but with slow attacks and terrible priority)
Shiek (Wow. Biggest nerf of all goes to Zelda's alter ego in OOT)
Link (The Hero of Time was, surprisingly, nerfed)

BOTTOM:

Samus (Another notable nerfing)
Ganondorf (Uber strong, but he can't outpace a dead snail)
Jigglypuff (Good air moves, but Rest sucks, and Jiggz is way too easy to kill)
Captian Falcon (A cross between Ganondorf and Sonic. Not a good thing)

*** YOSHI BIASED YOSHI BIASED YOSHI BIASED ***
"The Only wavedash in the game"? Wow, why isn't he placing 1st in every tourney then?

Middle and Low tier are so messed up. Some of your "reasons" aren't reasonable at all.

(DK reference from DK64 )

 

[MarKO X]

so the most recent list here has Sonic being worse than Ike, PT, and Yoshi... wowzers.

And sonic's only slow attacks are his smashes. When people learn to stop spamming them and use his aerials and his tilts instead, maybe people will begin to realize how to use Sonic.

But I'd love to start a Sonic vs. Yoshi discussion. There's no way in hell I should allow that one to stand. lol.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I actually think sonic has a slight advantage over Yoshi because he is very capable at punishing Yoshi.
But Yoshi outdoes him aerially can kill him earlier.

Nothing big though.

 

[Mmac]

But I'd love to start a Sonic vs. Yoshi discussion. There's no way in hell I should allow that one to stand. lol.

Two words. Pivot Grabs

But this is a Tier List discussion, not a Character Matchup Discussion

 

[Sonic527]

so the most recent list here has Sonic being worse than Ike, PT, and Yoshi... wowzers.

And sonic's only slow attacks are his smashes. When people learn to stop spamming them and use his aerials and his tilts instead, maybe people will begin to realize how to use Sonic.

But I'd love to start a Sonic vs. Yoshi discussion. There's no way in hell I should allow that one to stand. lol.

The weird part about what you said is I main with Sonic and my secondary is Yoshi O.o

 

[jigglyppuff8]

Obviously any move able to kill everything below 90% (even DDD and snake), and MK at around 60-70% has to suck, yeah, excellent reasoning. But yeah, if only we had some awesome move like dair which would allow us to combo into rest...

Can people never come up with good (or at least decent) reasons to put Jiggly in bottom? I'm not saying she doesn't suck, it's just that you people seem to just assume something without even considering using that gray stuff which is rotting away in your heads :S

Although I am a jiggs main myself, I can agree that jiggs isn't very good tier wise. Rest only has 1 prime moment to strike. Miss it and you're screwed. MK is too small and fast a target to get a proper rest in. Also, unless auto-canceled, a dair's landing lag is too great to combo into a rest. In the previous 2 installations, Dair could be L-canceled and rest's godly knockback made it worth the risk. In brawl, not so much. There is her Dash attack cancelling which gives her ground game another option, but it is nothing like snake's. Pound is great and a rising nair is a good combo to a fair/bair. Not to mention her floatiness and quick aerials. But her weak knockback aerials and smashes and the aforementioned floatiness leading to her quick KO really hinder her performance. She belongs somewhere in mid low tier.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Two words. Pivot Grabs

But this is a Tier List discussion, not a Character Matchup Discussion

Good luck pivot grabbing a Sonic

 

[Blistering Speed]

Good luck pivot grabbing a Sonic

Erm we've gotten past the fact he can run fast now. I can't off the top of my head think of any ground option Sonic has against pivot grab and it also severely limits his airgame.

 

[Heavenly Spoon]

jigglyppuff8, if you can't land a dair to rest, you're doing it wrong. It is constant and it is an actual combo. Just short-hop, dair, at the last hit or so, fast fall and rest (the landing lag is canceled, moves actually do that, welcome to brawl). You're a jiggly main and that's not your main killing move? ._.
And yes, it's worth the risk, just because it isn't a KO at ridiculously low percentages anymore doesn't mean rest is completely useless and should be avoided at all costs. Killing snake at 80- percent can't be negative now, can it?

And if you spam bair instead of fair, sweetspotted fair has some pretty wicked knockback.

Yes, her ground game sucks and she's ridiculously light, I am aware of her flaws. I was pointing out that people just make up flaws, clearly showing that they did not do their research at all.

 

[Mmac]

Good luck pivot grabbing a Sonic

Yeah, we get it. Sonic is fast, but fast isn't fast enough in this case.

Trust me, it's easier than you might think. Infact I feel it's actually easier to snag fast characters, than the slower ones.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Obviously any move able to kill everything below 90% (even DDD and snake), and MK at around 60-70% has to suck, yeah, excellent reasoning. But yeah, if only we had some awesome move like dair which would allow us to combo into rest...

Can people never come up with good (or at least decent) reasons to put Jiggly in bottom? I'm not saying she doesn't suck, it's just that you people seem to just assume something without even considering using that gray stuff which is rotting away in your heads :S

She has an Aerial game.......that's it. Just about everything else about her sucks, and her Air game isn't even that good in comparision to others, plus she's suspectible to completely unique disadvantage that no other characters posses (Dieing when Shield runs out)


LIGHTEST character in the game.
Very little KO potential.
Against characters with larger grab ranges, WILL get shieldgrabbed with ease.
TERRIBLE ground game.
Rest is not nearly worth it it seems.
Terrible matchups across the boards.
Tournament results backing me up completely.


I think there's plenty of reasons why Jiggs deserves rock bottom.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragnarok17
lol did u get that from Yugioh Abridged Seires? or did Yugioh Abridged get it from somewhere else if u know? That made me laugh :D

Yugioh what? No dude, that's like the stereotypical soap opera line.

Oh I didn't know that lol. Well, Grunt knows what I was talking about :D

Sry, but who's Maninboots? i can't find out... lol

edit: oh it's Ganondorf right?

 

[Browny]

I was pointing out that people just make up flaws, clearly showing that they did not do their research at all.

Even 5 months into this discussion thread people will still spew the cr@p they thought when they first bought the game (mk cant kill, ness is similar to lucas etc)

 

[Yonder]

Tier List

Pretty nice list, but I prettyy much skimmed it as soon as I saw Mario in Middle while Luigi in Low. I can give good reasoning on why this is SO not true.

 

[DanGR]

Pretty nice list, but I prettyy much skimmed it as soon as I saw Mario in Middle while Luigi in Low. I can give good reasoning on why this is SO not true.

I kinda rushed through it. I haven't seen a good luigi yet so I'm still skeptical of his potential. There's several characters that are better than Luigi. It's just hard to place exactly where he should go considering. Would you put him above Sheik/Zelda, Fox, or ZSS? I mean, there's a buncha good characters out there. I put Mario above Luigi simply b/c of Boss Mario. I've seen him do great with Mario and I have yet to see what Luigi is capable of that Mario can't also do. Mario combos better and has a better projectile, while luigi has an easier time killing. It's kinda like the debate b/w Ness~Lucas to who's better. I'm just not sure. If you've got some videos you'd like to share, by all means, show them. ^_^

 

[Kiwikomix]

Good luck pivot grabbing a Sonic

Yoshi's too slow!

But the matchup is even. It's a long fight to be sure, since both characters have good recoveries and can't KO... although Sonic has a slight advantage on the first part and Yoshi on the second.

 

[NinjaFoxX]

Yoshi's too slow!

But the matchup is even. It's a long fight to be sure, since both characters have good recoveries and can't KO... although Sonic has a slight advantage on the first part and Yoshi on the second.

5:5
in the end its gonna be ehos more skilled with their character

 

[Eclipse_the_Sun]

and this is why I quoted you. Sheik is good in this game you ******. She'll be up with Olimar and Lucario soon enough. What's wrong with her huh? Care to explain?

I believe that while shiek is underrated because of her nerf and should probably be a bit higher on the tiers she is simply nowhere near the league of olimar and lucario. She simply has too much trouble killing despite the fact that she can rack up damage extremely quickly and can you honestly say that the character ranked 35th in tournament results deserves to be that high?

 

[Browny]

its amazing how underrated shiek is, when her #1 problem is solved by turning to zelda... are people actually doing this? zeldas utilt is way too good to just not be used lol

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

yeah which is why people place Sonic in top 8 of worst characters when he is 24th out of 39th.

Tourney results are the MOST important, I find it funny that people enact a double standard concerning Sonic, Ike and a few other characters despite the tourney results showing otherwise.

yeah tourney results aren't everything, but they reflect on alot and if sonic is 24th then why should he be in the top 8 worst when he is far from it?

Clearly there is a double standard since people are using the tourney results to varying degrees.

Those tourney results reflect on many things, playstyle, matchups etc etc.

Yes, Tournament Results are important, but looking at them at face value is just as misleading. You also have to look at WHERE the results are coming from, we need to take into account how many people are successful with the character, not just one person boosting their Results.


I can guarentee Ness is not nearly as good as the rankings would imply, and it's ,ostly one person doing the work. Coincidence? maybe

 

[penguinman]

TOP:

Snake (Obvious)
Meta Knight (Obvious)
Mr. Game & Watch (Powerful, good recovery, godlike priority, and he gives the finger)
Marth (Silly Sakurai, you never nerfed him)
Falco (An already good character with laser lock and chain grabs)
R.O.B (Disliked by some does not equal a bad character)

HIGH:

King Dedede (Kills at low percentages, heavy AND good recovery, chain grabs)
Captain Olimar (Olimar has loads of potential. Only thing preventing him from being a god is the god-awful recovery)
Toon Link (Fast, decent recovery, can rack up damage like crazy, but has trouble killing)
Wario (He's just crazy. Unpredicable, and great tourney results)
Pikachu (Definitely buffed. Similar to Melee Pika, but way better)
Ice Climbers (0-death combo, chain grabs, and Nana has a brain!)
Pit (Arrow spam, godlike recovery, racks up damage, has a terrible voice which distracts opponents)
Wolf (Recovery isn't good, but he's a beast. Literally
Donkey Kong (He's bigger, faster, and stronger than in Melee. Cookie for reference)
Kirby (An overall great character with amazing recovery, and a couple good KO moves)

MIDDLE:

Zelda (Light, but really powerful with KO moves. Uair, anyone?)
Lucario (Gets more dangerous as his damage level goes up, but a threat even at 0%)

*Aura stomps you in the face* no! Lucario has no reason to deserve such tomfoolery. Just look at his tourney results.

 

[Browny]

I can guarentee Ness is not nearly as good as the rankings would imply,

Prove it then

 

[Nitrix]

Here it goes, I will explain it later


Top
MK
Snake
Falco
ROB





Higher

GaW
Diddy Kong
Marth
DDD
Donkey Kong
Tlink
ICs
Pikachu


Mid

Lucario
Fox
Mario
Wario
Sheik/Zelda
Pit
Bowser
Olimar
Peach
Kirby
ZSS

Low

Luigi
Wolf
Ness
PT
Link
Yoshi
Ike
Lucas
Jigglypuff
Sonic
Captain Falcon
Ganondorf

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Prove it then

Oh I don't know, one person making an entire character's tournament results isn't all that much as testament to the Character itself, it's more of a testament to the player.

If M2K stopped and starting winning tournaments with CF, would you honestly believe Falcon is actually good? No, that's more of a testament of M2K being good. Not to mention even with those results, He's still in the part of C rank where there is a gigantic disparity and there can be massive shuffling in a matter of days. Ever wonder how ZSS went from D rank to B rank in two weeks?


Like I said earlier, looking at tournament results at face value can be heavily misleading

 

[Eclipse_the_Sun]

Here it goes, I will explain it later

tier list

well if your going to explain it then i want to see sxplanations for sonic, lucas, ness, wolf,bowser, weegee, olimar, mario, ic's, diddy, falco, and rob and those are just the ones who are drastically out of place

 

[Browny]

Oh I don't know, one person making an entire character's tournament results isn't all that much as testament to the Character itself, it's more of a testament to the player.

If M2K stopped and starting winning tournaments with CF, would you honestly believe Falcon is actually good? No, that's more of a testament of M2K being good. Not to mention even with those results, He's still in the part of C rank where there is a gigantic disparity and there can be massive shuffling in a matter of days. Ever wonder how ZSS went from D rank to B rank in two weeks?


Like I said earlier, looking at tournament results at face value can be heavily misleading

still doesnt come close to proving why apparently ness is no where near deserving of mid-tier

 

[DanGR]

Mid

Lucario
Fox
Mario
Wario
Sheik/Zelda
Pit
Bowser
Olimar
Peach
Kirby
ZSS

Below Boozer? LOL at the smashboards community for teaching you this. >_>