Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[A2ZOMG]

Both are extremely gimpable. Lucas to a slightly lesser extent (you actually have to attack his PK thunder to destroy it, whereas Ness, you just hover around him). But Ness is actually better than Lucas. Better approach options and some better kill options especially thanks to that B-throw. Also I think his grab attack is a lot faster.

 

[AlexX]

Both are extremely gimpable. Lucas to a slightly lesser extent. But Ness is actually better than Lucas. Better approach options and some better kill options thanks to that B-throw.

Could you please go into details? I don't see how Ness is better than Lucas, and I'm pretty sure Ness's killing throw is his F-throw. Lucas is the one who kills with his B-throw.

I also fail to see how they're so easily gimpable (or at least Lucas, since you can't just eat the PK Thunder like you can with Ness).

 

[jiovanni007]

Could you please go into details? I don't see how Ness is better than Lucas, and I'm pretty sure Ness's killing throw is his F-throw. Lucas is the one who kills with his B-throw.

I also fail to see how they're so easily gimpable (or at least Lucas, since you can't just eat the PK Thunder like you can with Ness).

Actually Ness' bthrow is his kill move. The thing that puts Ness above Lucas is his high range, no lag fair. It's deadly. It has combo potential out of his dthrow, its one of the best ledge hops since he doesn't DJC now, and is just overall a very abusable move. He lacks in reliable kills (bthrow, bat and PK2 being the best bets, but the latter 2 don't hit that often). Lucas is a better all around killer, but Ness just has safer ways to rack up damage. Lucas' fair, dair and bair all lag upon landing which makes nair and PK fire the only reliable approaches.

As far as Olimar goes, he's good. If DanGR says something about Olimar, than its probably right so don't make urself look stupid by disagreeing with him.

Toon Link is also overrated, stop putting him higher than mid tier. Kirby is low high tie (assuming 6 tier system with high being the 3rd tier). He ranks 14 in the tourney stanfings and his high tier matchups aren't bad outside of Snake, ROB, and Marth, but most characters can't even say that. I've argued Kirby before and can do so into infinity while destroying any counterargument anyone can bring forth.

Also as far as Ness goes, he isn't that east to gimp. If he gets PK thunder out and your still on the stage, there is no reason for you to try to go off the edge unless you like taking PKT2s. He can be edgehogged, but that's the only semi-sure bet.

 

[AlexX]

I guess since I'm here I should ask why everyone has suddenly started putting Snake and MK in their own tier... They're top tier, yes, I'd never contest that, but to put them in their own tier would imply they're that much better than everyone else in the game, and before someone tries to claim they are, I'd like to point out that other top-tiers like Falco and G&W can handle them just fine, and plenty of high-tiers like Wario and Olimar can deal with them, as well.

Again, I'm not saying they aren't among the best. They definitely deserve to sit at the top of the tier list, but they don't deserve a tier of their own since plenty of top and high-tier characters can take them on and have a reasonable shot of winning. It's mostly just the bottom and mid tiers that they completely destroy.

 

[Frate]

I guess since I'm here I should ask why everyone has suddenly started putting Snake and MK in their own tier... They're top tier, yes, I'd never contest that, but to put them in their own tier would imply they're that much better than everyone else in the game, and before someone tries to claim they are, I'd like to point out that other top-tiers like Falco and G&W can handle them just fine, and plenty of high-tiers like Wario and Olimar can deal with them, as well.

Again, I'm not saying they aren't among the best. They definitely deserve to sit at the top of the tier list, but they don't deserve a tier of their own since plenty of top and high-tier characters can take them on and have a reasonable shot of winning. It's mostly just the bottom and mid tiers that they completely destroy.

The thing is, there's a bigger barrier between MK/Snake and the rest than within, for example... falcon/ganondorf/jigglypuff group.
Of course a lower tier can handle them fine, it's just that for example snake's uptilt have longer range to the sides than some fsmashes. I recently saw a video of a falcon who ***** marth, that doesn't mean falcon is high tier does it? ;/

also some put G&W in the same tier as those two (though below them)

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Could somebody kindly tell me, why Lucario is always considered to be high tier? I fail to see, what's so great about him and I never heard about anyone except for Azen placing well in tourneys with him...

 

[Browny]

well...

he has 20-60% combos from the start of every stock against the majority of the cast from a single grab/jab
his fsmash is spammable, has ridiculous range and is practically unpunishable (if its countered, it wont hit lucario)
all of his aerials have lingering hitboxes that hit way outside his body and many actually cover his entire body, hes extremely difficult to combo due to this, and his dair makes sure of it.
Aura sphere can KO
and of course, at higher %'s he hits like a truck. his fsmash is as strong as DK's at only 146% (iirc)

he has a whole lot of unique qualities that work really well with brawl, and he doesnt rely on a few moves to get damage and KO with, which seems to hinder a few characters.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Yeah, we get it. Sonic is fast, but fast isn't fast enough in this case.

Trust me, it's easier than you might think. Infact I feel it's actually easier to snag fast characters, than the slower ones.

Obviously you missed the point.
It isn't that Sonic is fast, its the fact that he isn't going to be in range for a pivot grab most of the time.

Olimar has a tough time getting a hold of Sonic what makes you think Yoshi is going to have any better luck?

 

[Monshou_no_Nazo]

One thing I want to mention about Lucario, is that he doesn't seem to have any impossible match-ups (meaning that Lucario is actually more balanced than Mario), which alone makes him usable in competitive play.

 

[ShadowLink84]

THat doesn't mean he's more balanced.

Balanced would mean matchups were all neutral to slight advantage/disadvantage.

That is balanced.

 

[Kiwikomix]

THat doesn't mean he's more balanced.

Balanced would mean matchups were all neutral to slight advantage/disadvantage.

That is balanced.

But that doesn't exactly make a good character. Look at Yoshi.

 

[Tenki]

Sonics tournament standings are higher than people expect because a lot of people are die-hard sonic fans and just want to play him, whether he is good or bad, and that's why he's getting placements, because so many people are playing with him in tournaments. If not many people are picking TL in tournaments, that would explain why he is lower. Now people are gonna say people aren't picking him because he is not that good, but I just think he is a lot of people's secondary and usually doesn't get mentioned when people turn in their results.

I thought this was debunked already.

Unless you're playing at scrub tourneys or your area has a bunch of people who are trying to prove that Sonic doesn't suck or that they're the best Sonic or whatever.

`.`

seriously, like... The Sonic boards, where people are working on actual techniques/strategies/whatever for higher level play, has like 10-20 participating regulars, and only a few actually go to in-person tourneys. It might have the most posts of all the boards, but most of them were done before Brawl was released, and everyone abandoned Sonic just like they did Ike when they saw how much he sucked.

 

[ShadowLink84]

But that doesn't exactly make a good character. Look at Yoshi.

What about Yoshi?
To my knowledge Yoshi is far from having alot of neutrals/slightdisadvantage/slightadvantage for his entire matchup


I am talking something like

Order Sol Matchup:
venom: 55:45 Sol
ABA 45:55 ABA
SOl 50:50

Something along these lines across the board with no major disadvantages or advantages.

Not Yoshi where he has a large number of disadvantages with few nuetral/advantages for him.


@Tenki: You deal with them mentioning popularity since if I have to talk about why Sonic isn't popular in tournaments one more time, I am going to punch a hole through time and space and kill someone.

 

[Kiwikomix]

a large number of disadvantages with few neutral/advantages for him.

Wrong, but whatever.

What I'm saying is that ONE balanced character wouldn't necessarily be placed at the middle of the tier list just because he's balanced. Now, if EVERY character was balanced and some were just less balanced than others, that would make a more "fair" tier list.

Not that I'm here to scrub around saying things like "cheap" and "fair".

 

[ShadowLink84]

Wrong, but whatever.

So Wolf, Falco, Marth, G&W, and several other characters don't have 65:35 advantage over him?

What I'm saying is that ONE balanced character wouldn't necessarily be placed at the middle of the tier list just because he's balanced. Now, if EVERY character was balanced and some were just less balanced than others, that would make a more "fair" tier list.

Not that I'm here to scrub around saying things like "cheap" and "fair".

Oh no I m not discussing tier list I am discussing on what a balanced character would look like.
Not necessarily on where they would be placed tier list wise.

 

[Browny]

a truly balanced character (moveset wise, not matchups or anything) in brawl would be bottom tier imo

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

DDD is 3rd in tourney results not Marth.
lte alone the fact that many other Marth mains agree that Marth is probably not the 3rd best character.
most likely 5th with Falco and G&W above him.

Ya DarxMarth, I think you are a bit biased, I was too when I was new here, I remember arguing with NSS about whether or not ROB sucked. ROB is now my secondary... I would definitely say Marth is top 5, no question about that, I don't know I'd probably say 4th, above Falco, with MK, Snake, and G&W above him, but that's just me. And before all you guys go into Falco's chaingrabs, Marth can escape that with an Up B.

 

[DanGR]

Olimar is a very unbalanced character as well. That's the only reason he's not placing as well as we Olimar mains would like. (like 11th or somethin overall I think?) Rob has it 7/3 and Peach has it about 8/2. Though Olimar has advantageous/neutral matchups on several high tier characters such as Lucario, DDD, Snake, GaW, Falco, Wario, DK, and Zelda. If Olimar was even with Rob, MK, and Peach, he'd probably be close to top tier along with Falco, Marth, and GaW.

 

[Browny]

what if falco shield-grabs the CG, and has a full charge fsmash waiting for you when you land?

 

[ShadowLink84]

???
Djbrown go on in greater detail I am a bit lost with what you said.

 

[Kiwikomix]

So Wolf, Falco, Marth, G&W, and several other characters don't have 65:35 advantage over him?

*avoids starting another Yoshi argument in this thread*

I honestly don't think Wolf will have an advantage over most characters soon. He's a lot like Ike in that he has a pretty limited Brawl future, but at least he may end up mid tier.

 

[SaxDude93]

*avoids starting another Yoshi argument in this thread*

I honestly don't think Wolf will have an advantage over most characters soon. He's a lot like Ike in that he has a pretty limited Brawl future, but at least he may end up mid tier.

I remember when the Brawl community thought that Wolf was a god and Snake was mid tier or something. Hark the n00b infested days of old. Oh, and...

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6194855.html?action=convert&om_clk=latestnews&tag=latestnews;title;4

 

[ShadowLink84]

*avoids starting another Yoshi argument in this thread*

I honestly don't think Wolf will have an advantage over most characters soon. He's a lot like Ike in that he has a pretty limited Brawl future, but at least he may end up mid tier.

Start the Yoshi thing as I said there's no point to a tier list if ther eis no argument.
I do think Yoshi is better than people give him credit for but by no means do I think he will make it past lowtier or if he does, get out of low mid tier.

 

[Deleted member]

Kay, uhh he has 65-35 matchups(disadvantaged) with(imo, and some stuff that other yoshis think that i dont necessarily agree with):

Marth, falco, g-dubs, zelda(i dont agree with), and normal link lol. THose are his "i should probably pick up MK" matchups =P

He actually has lots of neutrals, and quite a few advantages for "bottom tier trash". And if u want me to go into detail as to why he isnt terrible against snake or MK or someone, let me know.

 

[DanGR]

No-one's gonna argue with me? y'all aren't any fun. >_>

I can understand why Yoshi wouldn't have a hard time with Snake, but I don't know about MK. His aerial priority should be able to shut down yoshi's awesome combo abilities. I know about the chaingrab, but I don't think it's enough.

 

[fkacyan]

Kay, uhh he has 65-35 matchups(disadvantaged) with(imo, and some stuff that other yoshis think that i dont necessarily agree with):

Marth, falco, g-dubs, zelda(i dont agree with), and normal link lol. THose are his "i should probably pick up MK" matchups =P

He actually has lots of neutrals, and quite a few advantages for "bottom tier trash". And if u want me to go into detail as to why he isnt terrible against snake or MK or someone, let me know.

The only Yoshi to do well is PRiDE, really. I'm not counting anybody else until they get top 25 in a regional.

So, uh, yeah, I don't think he has that many advantages. I think his main "advantage" is that nobody knows the matchup, and Brawl is all about matchups.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Yoshi doesn't have issues with MK dangr because he murders many of MK's approaching abilities.

Egg break the tornado, his aerial approaches and force MK to the ground.
His Bair is an effective move aginst MK due to the range and MK can't really risk attacking it because it could clash.
Then there is the issue that MK cannot edge guard Yoshi because of Yoshi's juggernaut frames meaning he is forced to rely on his Dsmash and shuttleloop and it has to be at high percentages.
He just limits MK that well.

 

[adumbrodeus]

No-one's gonna argue with me? y'all aren't any fun. >_>

I can understand why Yoshi wouldn't have a hard time with Snake, but I don't know about MK. His aerial priority should be able to shut down yoshi's awesome combo abilities. I know about the chaingrab, but I don't think it's enough.

He's not saying it's not a disadvantage, just not the horrible ****-fest that most people assume.

 

[fkacyan]

Yoshi doesn't have issues with MK dangr because he murders many of MK's approaching abilities.

Egg break the tornado, his aerial approaches and force MK to the ground.
His Bair is an effective move aginst MK due to the range and MK can't really risk attacking it because it could clash.
Then there is the issue that MK cannot edge guard Yoshi because of Yoshi's juggernaut frames meaning he is forced to rely on his Dsmash and shuttleloop and it has to be at high percentages.
He just limits MK that well.

MK can walk backwards and downsmash a bair approach.
MK doesn't have to edgeguard him. He can just wait to punish him at the top of his jump and completely gimp him that way.

See, the issue here is that you're assuming MK has to do X or Y, wheras the case is actually YOSHI has to do X or Y, and it's extremely easy for an MK who knows what Yoshi is going to do, seeing as Yoshi doesn't have many options in a given situation, to punish the hell out of him for it.

 

[Snakeee]

Cyanide you've seen Pride fight a Meta haven't you? It's actually not bad for Yoshi, maybe even his favor because of his CG on him. Pride does fine against Meta now.

 

[-__-]

Tier list goes Dedede, Dedede, Dedede Top tier
Every one else is bottom thats it quit life

 

[fkacyan]

Cyanide you've seen Pride fight a Meta haven't you? It's actually not bad for Yoshi, maybe even his favor because of his CG on him. Pride does fine against Meta now.

How many people honestly know that matchup? Hell, every Yoshi I've seen plays differently, so you may think you know but lose to one because they have a different way of utilizing him.

Just because somebody wins with a character vs another character doesn't mean the matchup is good. Given the number of Snakes and MKs at high levels of play, if Yoshi did as well as everybody says he does, then he would be winning.

 

[Mmac]

Yet, you people forgot that Yoshi can just Pivot Grab MK out of basically every approach he has, then follow up with a Release Grab Usmash combo, or Chaingrab.

 

[fkacyan]

Yet, you people forgot that Yoshi can just Pivot Grab MK out of basically every approach he has, then follow up with a Release Grab Usmash combo, or Chaingrab.

And MK is approaching why...?

Stop playing predictable MKs.

 

[Mmac]

And MK is approaching why...?

Stop playing predictable MKs.

So..... Yoshi has to be aggressive against MetaKnight..... why?

 

[fkacyan]

So..... Yoshi has to be aggressive against MetaKnight..... why?

Because if you use Egg Toss and miss, you get punished for it. MK, on the other hand, doesn't have to worry about using a laggy move and getting punished for it, because anything he's going to use almost definitely isn't going to have lag.

Yoshi's most lagless moves tend to be his approach techniques. Thus, most Yoshis are going to play aggressive vs Meta Knights.

 

[Mmac]

Because if you use Egg Toss and miss, you get punished for it. MK, on the other hand, doesn't have to worry about using a laggy move and getting punished for it, because anything he's going to use almost definitely isn't going to have lag.

Yoshi's most lagless moves tend to be his approach techniques. Thus, most Yoshis are going to play aggressive vs Meta Knights.

Except Pivot Grabs comes out as fast than most regular non-ranged grabs, with barley any afterlag.

 

[fkacyan]

Except Pivot Grabs comes out as fast than most regular non-ranged grabs, with barley any afterlag.

Why would you be using this from across the stage?

Whatever, I'm done with this. Results have proven that Yoshi is bad, I'm not really sure why we're discussing this again, and why i allowed myself to be galled into it.

 

[Deleted member]

No-one's gonna argue with me? y'all aren't any fun. >_>

I can understand why Yoshi wouldn't have a hard time with Snake, but I don't know about MK. His aerial priority should be able to shut down yoshi's awesome combo abilities. I know about the chaingrab, but I don't think it's enough.

Which is why its still a tough match, and its like 40-60. Just cuz of the Cg and because grab release into usmash for kill, and how early uair kills in this matchup. *Shrugs*

 

[Mmac]

Why would you be using this from across the stage?

Whatever, I'm done with this. Results have proven that Yoshi is bad, I'm not really sure why we're discussing this again, and why i allowed myself to be galled into it.

Results? Your pretty much saying What if this professional MetaKnight player fights a Yoshi player who has no idea how to play the character we're playing. Your treating us like *******.

You think that we will just mindlessly charge into a fight? You think that we can't actually force MetaKnight into the aggressive to our benefit? We're going to use our eggs point blank? You think we don't know our character at all and you do?

You say that we are the biased ones, but I think you, sir, are the biased one

Which is why its still a tough match, and its like 40-60.

We actually agreed on 45-55, but our system didn't have "5"s, so we had to round it up