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Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

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Trespayne

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I definitely don't think tournament standings should be the first thing looked at. Melee's tier list was dead accurate, and that was without tournament standings, it's based on how the character plays and their match-ups. Toon Link is low on tournament standings, but that could easily be due to a few different reasons. For example, one of those top 2 MK placements was from me, but if I picked Toon Link I could have achieved the same outcome with him instead.

Sonics tournament standings are higher than people expect because a lot of people are die-hard sonic fans and just want to play him, whether he is good or bad, and that's why he's getting placements, because so many people are playing with him in tournaments. If not many people are picking TL in tournaments, that would explain why he is lower. Now people are gonna say people aren't picking him because he is not that good, but I just think he is a lot of people's secondary and usually doesn't get mentioned when people turn in their results.

Also, Toon Link is only countered by 2 people, and if somebody does pick Olimar against TL, i'll just pick MK.

So that's the main reason I think the tournament standings should not be the first thing or most important thing. I agree it's important though and definitely should be calculated into the tier list, because aside from Pikachu and TL(being low), and maybe peach (being high), a lot of those results seem pretty accurate.
 

Collective of Bears

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Here it goes, I will explain it later


Top
MK
Snake
Falco
ROB





Higher

GaW
Diddy Kong
Marth
DDD
Donkey Kong
Tlink
ICs
Pikachu


Mid

Lucario
Fox
Mario
Wario
Sheik/Zelda
Pit
Bowser
Olimar
Peach
Kirby
ZSS

Low

Luigi
Wolf
Ness
PT
Link
Yoshi
Ike
Lucas
Jigglypuff
Sonic
Captain Falcon
Ganondorf
Bolded=Lower
Underlined=Higher

And those are only the big WTFs, as there are many other ones here.
 

Smooth Criminal

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I definitely don't think tournament standings should be the first thing looked at. Melee's tier list was dead accurate, and that was without tournament standings, it's based on how the character plays and their match-ups~
Wrong. It was still based off of tourney results and standings. The SBR is just too lazy to update it and plus they also feel that nothing much would change, anyway.

Smooth Criminal
 

Smooth Criminal

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No, really, is there anything that would change from an updated Melee list?
No, no. Nothing would change. I totally agree with you guys on that. I'm just saying that even the current tier listing that people look at now is based off of comprehensive tournament results during the year that the data was collected.

Smooth Criminal
 

BEES

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 23, 2008
Messages
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Location
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Just throwing my 2 cents in since everyone else did this

N64
Top.High..Mid.Low..Bottom
Melee
Top.High..Upper Mid....Lower Mid.......Low.........Bottom
Brawl
Top.........High.Mid.Low.Bottom...................................................................................
Falcon tier off the side of the page
 

KingK

Smash Apprentice
Joined
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Location
Chestnut Hill, MA
My Tier List attempt, entered for your scrutiny, to be ridiculed and discarded at your discretion. :laugh:

I basically took NSS / Silverflash's Tier List and made some changes based on what I've read and seen and from my own opinions. I won't pretend that I think it's perfect in any way, but I wasn't entirely satisfied with their list, either. There aren't any truly colossal changes from their list, but probably a few that will incite discussion (and perhaps outrage :bee:)

I'd tell you to tell me what you think, but I know the people in this thread have no problem doing that without being told. :)

Here goes:

Top Tier:
1. Snake
2. Meta Knight



Very High Tier:
3. Mr. Game and Watch
4. King Dedede
5. Marth
6. R.O.B.
7. Falco
8. Wario
9. Olimar




High Tier:
10. Wolf
11. Pit
12. Fox
13. Lucario
14. Donkey Kong
15. Toon Link
16. Pikachu
17. Kirby



Mid Tier:
18. Ice Climbers
19. Zelda
20. Luigi
21. Ness
22. Lucas
23. Diddy Kong
24. ZSS
25. Sonic
26. Peach



Low Tier :
27. Ike
28. Pokemon Trainer
29. Sheik
30. Mario
31. Bowser
32. Yoshi


Bottom Tier:

33. Link
34. Samus
35. Ganondorf
36. Jigglypuff
37. Captain Falcon



Enjoy. :psycho:
 

ShadowLink84

Smash Hero
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Yes, Tournament Results are important, but looking at them at face value is just as misleading. You also have to look at WHERE the results are coming from, we need to take into account how many people are successful with the character, not just one person boosting their Results.


I can guarentee Ness is not nearly as good as the rankings would imply, and it's ,ostly one person doing the work. Coincidence? maybe
Ankoku compiles the data.
All the results come from MULTIPLE people not just one.

They come from nationwide not just from one singular area.


Considering Sonic's popularity is already quite low there is little reason to doubt it.
Or is Sheik really deserving of mid tier despite the fact that she is still in the top 4 worst characters tournament wise?

There is no excuse for people to do double standards.
 

Blistering Speed

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ZSS needs discussion. She's got a good air game, a good ground game, a decent recovery, good spacing and punishing, she's just good.

She's underused because she's not on the character selection screen. Hell I bet 50% of people who own Smash don't know how to use her without using Samus' FS.
 
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Ankoku compiles the data.
All the results come from MULTIPLE people not just one.

They come from nationwide not just from one singular area.


Considering Sonic's popularity is already quite low there is little reason to doubt it.
Or is Sheik really deserving of mid tier despite the fact that she is still in the top 4 worst characters tournament wise?

There is no excuse for people to do double standards.
I meant the same PLAYER, not the same region. >>.



I don't care if M2K wins a few tournaments with Falcon, that's not showing Falcon is good, it's just much more of a testament to the actual player. This is why we don't look at results at face value.
 

ShadowLink84

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I meant the same PLAYER, not the same region. >>.



I don't care if M2K wins a few tournaments with Falcon, that's not showing Falcon is good, it's just much more of a testament to the actual player. This is why we don't look at results at face value.
No. This would only be true if it were that those pros like Azen, isai and Ken were using all of the characters.
They do not and like most other tourney goers they use one,two maybe three characters for tournaments. yeah you have people like gimpyfish but how many times did Gimpy win with Bowser in comparison to azen, isai and Ken?
 

Darxmarth23

Smash Champion
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My Tier List attempt, entered for your scrutiny, to be ridiculed and discarded at your discretion. :laugh:

I basically took NSS / Silverflash's Tier List and made some changes based on what I've read and seen and from my own opinions. I won't pretend that I think it's perfect in any way, but I wasn't entirely satisfied with their list, either. There aren't any truly colossal changes from their list, but probably a few that will incite discussion (and perhaps outrage :bee:)

I'd tell you to tell me what you think, but I know the people in this thread have no problem doing that without being told. :)

Here goes:

Top Tier:
1. Snake
2. Meta Knight



Very High Tier:
3. Mr. Game and Watch
4. King Dedede
5. Marth
6. R.O.B.
7. Falco
8. Wario
9. Olimar




High Tier:
10. Wolf
11. Pit
12. Fox
13. Lucario
14. Donkey Kong
15. Toon Link
16. Pikachu
17. Kirby



Mid Tier:
18. Ice Climbers
19. Zelda
20. Luigi
21. Ness
22. Lucas
23. Diddy Kong
24. ZSS
25. Sonic
26. Peach



Low Tier :
27. Ike
28. Pokemon Trainer
29. Sheik
30. Mario
31. Bowser
32. Yoshi


Bottom Tier:

33. Link
34. Samus
35. Ganondorf
36. Jigglypuff
37. Captain Falcon



Enjoy. :psycho:
Sigh...I think Marth and Mr.Game and watch should be switched.Thanks for the list though.im just saying my opinion.
 

Flandy121

Smash Apprentice
Joined
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Location
Allendale, Michigan
Considering Tournament Standings

i say the top three (in order) are Snake, metaknight, and marth.
Well Darxmarth23, according to your name I'd say you are a bit partial. As we are getting closer to an official tier list it is evident that G&W is 3rd. On the topic of an overall tier list I agree with Tres. We should reconsider Tournament standings. Tournament standings can skew the tier list because of favorites. Just because a certain character is doing better in tournament standings that just means they are being played more. I say we consider weighted tournament standings. For example use tournament standings for 15% of the deciding factor of the tier list.
 

Nitrix

Smash Ace
Joined
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Messages
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London, Ontario
Top Tier:
1. Snake
2. Meta Knight


Very High Tier:
3. Mr. Game and Watch
4. King Dedede
5. Marth
6. R.O.B.
7. Falco
8. Wario
9. Olimar



High Tier:
10. Wolf
11. Pit
12. Fox
13. Lucario
14. Donkey Kong
15. Toon Link

16. Pikachu
17. Kirby



Mid Tier:
18. Ice Climbers
19. Zelda
20. Luigi
21. Ness
22. Lucas
23. Diddy Kong
24. ZSS
25. Sonic
26. Peach


Low Tier :
27. Ike
28. Pokemon Trainer
29. Sheik
30. Mario
31. Bowser

32. Yoshi

Bottom Tier:
33. Link
34. Samus
35. Ganondorf
36. Jigglypuff
37. Captain Falcon

Red = higher
Underline= lower

King Dedede: I think as time goes on people will realize he isn't as strong as he seems. ROB and Falco should eventually be higher imo.

Olimar: Olimar is dependent on Pikmin, and imo should be around 16 and 17.

Marth: He is really good, but I don't think he should be higher than ROB and Falco

Donkey Kong: A strong character with potential. He has massive damage with a good approach game.

Toon Link: He has TONS of good matchups and very mitigatable weaknessess. He should be higher

Ice Climbers: Should switch with Kirby. Their grabs are crazy and their projectile game is strong.

Diddy Kong: Belongs in high of high tier or very high tier. This guy is so underestimated it hurts. The bananas can elevate his game to amazing levels. He just isn't popular in America yet. In Japan, Gano placed 2nd in Ketubato w Diddy.

Mario: A very solid char. He can gimp tons of chars and has a good approach with decent damage. At least mid tier.

Bowser: Middle tier material. He is pretty solid, and his side-b grab is very good.

Samus: Another very underestimated character. Right now almost everybody disregards her projectile game and her attacks. This should change because she has alot of natural strengths. Her recovery is good, and she has some techs.
 

DanGR

BRoomer
BRoomer
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Messages
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responses in green
King Dedede: I think as time goes on people will realize he isn't as strong as he seems. ROB and Falco should eventually be higher imo.
You're absolutely right. The only reason he does well is b/c he's a good character to have along with your main. He has some incredible matchups against some good characters. People use him for those and switch over to another character if DDD doesn't do well against him. How many people do you know that use ONLY DDD. That last tourney I went to had several DDD users, but none used him alone. They always had a different character they relied on. It's very rare.

Olimar: Olimar is dependent on Pikmin, and imo should be around 16 and 17.
Dependent on pikmin? so what? Marth is dependent on his sword and IC are dependent on their hammers. >_>

Marth: He is really good, but I don't think he should be higher than ROB and Falco

Donkey Kong: A strong character with potential. He has massive damage with a good approach game.
good

Toon Link: He has TONS of good matchups and very mitigatable weaknessess. He should be higher
he's fine where he is. He hasn't done very well in tourneys, and his matchups in the character specific board and IvanEva's matchup chart are both outdated and are wrong.

Ice Climbers: Should switch with Kirby. Their grabs are crazy and their projectile game is strong.
good

Diddy Kong: Belongs in high of high tier or very high tier. This guy is so underestimated it hurts. The bananas can elevate his game to amazing levels. He just isn't popular in America yet. In Japan, Gano placed 2nd in Ketubato w Diddy.
good

Mario: A very solid char. He can gimp tons of chars and has a good approach with decent damage. At least mid tier.
good

Bowser: Middle tier material. He is pretty solid, and his side-b grab is very good.
nah, he's really not very good. He has a very limited approach game, is easily juggled, doesn't have very good range considering his size, bad matchups, and hasn't done well in tourneys.

Samus: Another very underestimated character. Right now almost everybody disregards her projectile game and her attacks. This should change because she has alot of natural strengths. Her recovery is good, and she has some techs.
maybe, she's still bad, but she won't get past low tier.
 

DanGR

BRoomer
BRoomer
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Messages
6,860
@ danger
Can Marth lose his sword? Can the IC's lose their hammers?
Losing pikmin? LOL Here's something for you:

-It takes less than 2 seconds to pull 6 pikmin.
-Olimar's non-pikmin moves are very good. ftilt, dtilt, nair, and uptilt can provide good relief if I were to ever lose all my pikmin.
-We pick pikmin when we're low on pikmin, so we won't have none.
-Smashes can be done DIRECTLY after pulling a pikmin. Here's one of the threads about it: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=181025
 

Xiivi

So much for friendship huh...
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Everyone's been putting Fox way off where he deserves to be in most tier lists. I see him averaging like spot 13 to 18 or some stupid thing like that. He's terrible. His tournament standings are growing more and more laughable. Only a few people being able to do well with him, people who would do well with any character they choose (like Lucien). And still, even with that they usually use another character and if they do go solo Fox it usually only will get them a fifth at best. When you see Fox do well it's either a) a really good player or b) someone who depended on other characters more. Fox really only has a surprise factor, and it isn't even that good of one like a character such as Pokemon Trainer or Ganondorf might have. So Fox's tournament results really aren't that good, in fact if you take away the a) and b) you'd see he's really pretty low in results.

Then you have moveset. Man it's terrible. Fox has no approach options of worth. They are all very easy to deal with and don't really pose much of a threat. He's got dair for best results, and it easily is punished. It has little DI forcing Fox to commit to an easily shieldgrab for his opponent. When it comes to other options, it's fairly useless. He has nair which has little range and is also easily punished. He has fair which has a lot of DI making it hard to punish, but it pushes him too high to be of use on most characters. He's got illusion, which is laughable. He's got bair which won't get him far. He's got dash attack, which is subpar at best. His ability to get in a grab due to his speed is good, too bad it leads to nothing in all directions at all percents.

Which basically leaves him with no safe approaches on any and all characters, forcing him to attempt to force the opponent to approach. He's got lasers and a reflector in order to attempt to accomplish such a thing. However, this isn't going to do much for him. His lasers offer low mobility and are easily weaved around if Fox is doing SH lasers. If he's doing standing lasers then he's a sitting duck. Not to mention is reflector isn't the best when it comes to prevent him from being spammed. Most characters will end up forcing him to approach in the end, sadly. Not to mention when they do finally approach, his options are limited still. Fox's moveset is very vanilla and easily predictable. It's hard to keep it fresh, nothing strings together. None of his combos that people think work are actually all easily punished.

So Fox can't approach and he can't do much if he does successfully approach. The best he can do is run away and go for another 10% later. He builds damage rather slowly when played against correctly (i.e. not falling for lousy up-tilt juggles and dair to whatever combos that are easily escaped.) His lasers can't do much when you realize he can't maneuver at all with them and punish this. So when he gets approached he has the same problem. He can make the opponent go away with his very few, easy to predict and punish options. That's about it. Fox is usually forced into mid-range battle because of this. Fox is terrible at mid-range. Out of long range, mid range, and close range, mid is probably what he wants to avoid most. Too bad he'll always be forced into it if his opponent knows how to handle him. Fox is easily outranged with this and can't use lasers without being punished at all. The best thing he has for mid range is side tilt, which doesn't help much at all.

When it comes to killing, Fox is pretty limited. He has his smashes, uair and bair are probably what you want to use. Sadly, uair is very obvious and easily avoided, it really shouldn't connect. Bair will really only work for edgeguarding, which Fox can't do well since he can't commit more than two inches off the stage without putting himself in a terrible position. If Fox goes past this point, he'll most likely find himself the one being edgeguarded. So that leaves the smashes. Forward smash and downsmash are easily punished and takes higher percents than needed to successfully kill. They both can set up for edgeguarding pretty well. Too bad Fox can't edgeguard well. Then you're left with upsmash. Great kill move, one of his few redeeming factors. However, due to Fox's vanilla-like qualities, it becomes a one-option that becomes easily predicted to the point where it won't be killing into percents where it's potential to kill low doesn't even matter anymore. So Fox pretty much is obvious when it comes to killing. His best idea is to hopefully land a dair at around the 100% mark where it will trip the opponent and connect it to an upsmash. It's reliable, except it is harder than it seems vs an opponent aware of this.

But we have even more problems with this character. Lets talk about recovery. He has very few options. Fox travels vertically very fast and horizontally fairly slow. This means that unlike other characters, Fox simply can't DI up when hit off the stage and then DI back towards the stage gracefully. No, Fox is actually going to have to use his recovery. Sadly for Fox his recovery is subpar at best. Firefox is unusable due to having no priority, limited range, and a long wind-up. Making it easily intercepted and basically useless. Then you have illusion which is easily predicted. Not to mention it's shorter than Falco's, along with more wind-up and cool-down time. Easily punished. Fox is basically forced to rely on the following strategy for recovering: DI towards the stage. Use you second jump with a rising fair as late as possible. Use an illusion. All while having shine-stalling in mind to space yourself so you don't get intercepted by your opponent. However, this only gets you so far and doesn't allow for a good or even decent recovery.

Yet sadly, Fox's problems don't even end there. Fox's match-ups are terrible as well thanks to Fox's falling speed. Fox falling speed doesn't offer any advantages to Fox's match-ups really. It doesn't allow him to combo his opponent with blistering running speed coupled to it. Instead it allows for Fox to be comboed easily to high percents without much hope by a slew of characters. Couple this with Fox's absurdly low weight and he's pretty much always going to be dieing quickly in a lot of matches. A lot quicker than he can do things. Fox's upsmash will kill another Fox at a lower percent than it will kill kirby. That should be a testament to just how light this guy is. One of Fox's few good attributes is his upsmash killing at low percents. Sadly this isn't going to do anything other than make matches go faster when most characters have a move that will end up killing Fox at an even lower percent. Not to mention many characters will be easily comboing Fox to his death percents much easier than Fox will be getting them to theirs.

If anything, this is Fox's match-ups:
Fox N/A
Pikachu 2-8 (Pikachu)
Falco 2-8 (Falco)
Olimar 3-7 (Olimar)
Sheik 3-7 (Sheik)
Kirby 3-7 (Kirby)
Zero Suit Samus 3-7 (Zero Suit Samus)
Lucario 3-7 (Lucario)
Metaknight 3-7 (Metaknight)
Ice Climbers 4-6 (Ice Climbers)
R.O.B. 4-6 (R.O.B.)
Donkey Kong 4-6 (Donkey Kong)
Peach 4-6 (Peach)
King Dedede 4-6 (King Dedede)
Toon Link 4-6 (Toon Link)
Zelda 4-6 (Zelda)
Mr. Game & Watch 4-6 (Mr. Game & Watch)
Snake 4-6 (Snake)
Marth 4-6 (Marth)
Luigi 4-6 (Luigi)
Wolf 5-5
Ike 5-5
Wario 5-5
Diddy Kong 5-5
Pit 5-5
Lucas 5-5
Pokemon Trainer 5-5 (all three surprisingly)
Samus 5-5
Mario 5-5
Ness 5-5
Bowser 5-5
Sonic 6-4 (Fox)
Jigglypuff 6-4 (Fox)
Yoshi 6-4 (Fox)
Link 6-4 (Fox)
Ganondorf 6-4 (Fox)
Captain Falcon 7-3 (Fox)

Most of the worst are due to Fox being easily comboed to a percent he can be killed just from a grab. Followed by match-ups where Fox is just easily controlled or easily killed. Then for the neutral match-ups Fox can't be controlled or killed to easily. The few positive match-ups are where Fox won't be controlled and can actually control himself.

There is no positive for Fox anywhere. Bland moveset, terrible physics, terrible match-ups, no solid tournament results outside of a few good characters piloting him to a subpar position. Stop placing Fox so darn high. He does not deserve to be grouped among or above good characters such and kirby, donkey kong, ice climbers, etc... He's easily on the level of Lucas, Ness, Pokemon Trainer. I'd say somewhere around spots 24 to 30 work for him fairly well for him, but not the usual 13 to 18 I see. Best I can see him is bottom of mid, when he really should be around the middle of low. Once you learn to play against him, he's easily controlled and taken care of. Lots of one-sides match-ups, lots of disadvantages in general, few neutral matches, and few advantages all against less than notable characters.

Don't let me fool you, Fox is awesome and fun to use. But isn't worth it in the end if the surprise factor isn't going to win it for you. If your opponents know what to do against Fox, then you can expect to lose. If your opponents are clueless then you can expect to barely squeak a win by if you use some other good character to help.

And thus ends my, 'Fox is a terrible character' rant.
 

Veggi

Smash Champion
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Wow, that was long. It was a lot of good information though. Sadly I have to agree, Fox is worse than people give him credit for. He's still one of my favorite characters though. The only thing I have to disagree with is his recovery. Which was probably expected.

His illusion gives him enough distance that as long as he's on par or above the stage, he can almost always make it back. Even if he can be predicted, there isn't much they can do about it other than wait to punish Fox during his lag, which can be avoided by grabbing the edge. Fire Fox I agree with being predictable, but it's distance is very good. Also like you said fair and shine can be used to make it less predictable, not much though.
 

ScubaF_ingSteve

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Top Tier

Metaknight
Snake

High Tier

Mr. Game & Watch
R.O.B
Falco/Marth
Dedede

High-Mid Tier

Wario/Olimar
Diddy Kong/Wolf/Toon Link
Donkey Kong
Ice Climbers
Zelda
Kirby

Low-Mid Tier

Lucario
Pit
Pikachu
Zero Suit Samus
Fox
Luigi
Mario
Ike
Ness
Lucas
Sheik
Peach

Low Tier

Pokemon Trainer
Sonic
Link
Samus
Jiggylypuff

Bottom Tier

Yoshi
Bowser/Ganondorf
Caption Falcon
 

Morrigan

/!\<br>\¡/
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Messages
18,681
Toon Link higher than Wario? How is Falco worse than ROB? Also, I'd move Jiggs to bottom, Peach deserves at least Mid-high, she has better tourney results than all of your Low-mid characters.
 

Browny

Smash Hater
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Mar 22, 2008
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um either Xivii is extremely sarcastic beyond the point of it being funny, or all the fox users i play are far better than ill ever be
 

AlexX

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 22, 2008
Messages
651
Could someone please tell me why the Mother boys are always placed so low? Especially Lucas... I was under the impression he was pretty good.
 
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