Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[Browny]

Why don't we just confine discussion to one section of the Tier list for a page or two? See what happens. Since most people seem to agree on the top two tiers, how about we just try to discuss who should be in the bottom two tiers and in what order? Or we could just do the bottom tier.

I know it's probably pointless but I figured I might as well make the suggestion. It's probably been tried before (I haven't kept up with all 700 pages, obviously).


I'll say what I can about the Bottom tier:

I think the characters that belong here are probably Jigglypuff, Samus, Link, Captain Falcon, and maybe Yoshi. At least as of right now, based on what the tournaments have shown us and based on what we know about the characters (ATs and such). I think an argument could be made for Bowser and / or Ganondorf also being in the bottom tier, though that really depends on the makeup of the mid / lower mid and low tiers. I imagine a couple other characters could potentially be in the bottom tier, but I can't think of anyone that I feel is really bad enough for it.

What do you think?

personally, id swap Yoshi with PT. 9 smash attacks... not a single one of them is fast. squirtles dthrow is probably thier most reliable KO move, and being forced to swap for an easy KO (albeit at ~ 150%) just doesnt work well.

IMO

 

[Kiwikomix]

I think the characters that belong here are probably Jigglypuff, Samus, Link, Captain Falcon, and maybe Yoshi. At least as of right now, based on what the tournaments have shown us and based on what we know about the characters (ATs and such). I think an argument could be made for Bowser and / or Ganondorf also being in the bottom tier, though that really depends on the makeup of the mid / lower mid and low tiers.

Definitely not Yoshi and most likely not Link. Both of those characters have a decent amount of things going for them, or at least enough to keep them out of bottom. Boozer should stay in low as well.
Did you know that Ankoku has recently updated the rankings list? Ganondorf is now unranked. Seeing as there is little good in his entire moveset, he may be quite the candidate for bottom.
Sheik is unranked as well. It seems like a major stretch to consider her bottom, though, especially since she's usually considered to be lower mid or upper low.
Jiggz and Falcon, unfortunately, seem to be there to stay. I'm not entirely sold on Samus, but Lobelia could probably explain exactly why she belongs there.

Edit: @ djbrowny: Charizard's d-throw has similar knockback to Squirtle's. Also, Ivysaur's dash attack is a great kill move. And slowish =/= not viable for killing, as many of their smash attacks (notably, Squirtle's usmash, Charizards dsmash and fsmash, and Ivysaur's fsmash) have great range.

 

[Digital Angel]

I'm probably a little behind, but why is Wario so high up? I'm not against it or anything, but why? And isn't Sonic bottom tier?

You're ****ing ******** if you think Sonic is bottom tier. He should be high-low right now and will end up at mid when the game is fleshed out.

Seriously, shoot yourself.

 

[Grunt]

And isn't Sonic bottom tier?

that was before there were any tournaments.
now, he actually has placed.

 

[Swordplay]

Too all of those who say link is bottom tier.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xSoo-y9aCk

Link is bad. But he's better than bottom tier material. Watch how he ***** samus who should be bottom tier.

This is also a good video that showcases many of Links AT's as he has so many of them and shows what could happen if someone took the time to learn them all.

Check out arrow cancels at 30 secs
and used through out the game

Jab cancel at 1:20 for a KO

Usefulness of DAC as an approach and kill move (final KO)

And the occasional zair spacing

Granted this samus player was not nearly as good as the link player but it just shows you that Link should be a whole tier above characters like samus.

Bottom for Link?
I think not......Low at the least

 

[adumbrodeus]

Marth isn't as good as people originally thought. Yes, his recovery is better, but no projectile means that the likes of...Falco and R.O.B....are going to give Marth a hell of a time.

Except they don't. Marth has an advantage over falco, and goes even with ROB.

Keep in mind that this comes from the boards that gave a disadvantage to their character based on a few pixles of range difference for one move (when we discovered that MK's dtilt outranges Marth's safe moves), AND we're actually in complete disagreement with the MK boards over (each side gives the other char the advantage).

Marth's disadvantages are Snake (55-45), DDD(55-45), and MK (60-40).

 

[Morrigan]

Too all of those who say link is bottom tier.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xSoo-y9aCk

Link is bad. But he's better than bottom tier material. Watch how he ***** samus who should be bottom tier.

This is also a good video that showcases many of Links AT's as he has so many of them and shows what could happen if someone took the time to learn them all.

Check out arrow cancels at 30 secs
and used through out the game

Jab cancel at 1:20 for a KO

Usefulness of DAC as an approach and kill move (final KO)

And the occasional zair spacing

Granted this samus player was not nearly as good as the link player but it just shows you that Link should be a whole tier above characters like samus.

Bottom for Link?
I think not......Low at the least

It was a match against a Samus, and you even admitted that Samus wasn't really good.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

Top:
Snake
Meta Knight
Game and Watch

High:
Marth
DeDeDe
ROB
Falco
Wario
Olimar

High Mid:
Pit
Wolf
Toon Link
Luigi
Pikachu
Lucario
Donkey Kong

Mid:
Diddy Kong
Luigi
Zelda
Kirby
Ice Climbers
Fox

Lower Mid:
Lucas
Ness
Sheik
Mario

Low:
Sonic
Ike
Bowser
Pokemon Trainer
Ganondorf
Peach
Link

Bottom:
Samus
Captain Falcon
Jigglypuff
Yoshi

few things wrong with this, ill start from the bottom going up

jiggs - while she is pretty bad, i wouldn't go so far as to say bottom tier, her ground game sucks and she's really light, but her aerials are good,and rest still kills fairly early, bottom half of low, probably, but bottom? not yet

Peach - really, when people actually play her she does well, she still has the float, she can string together combos over 3 hits, and she still has stitches. her kill moves are lacking, but she didn't get nerfed enough to be put in the bottom of low, she's much closer to mid than that

Lucas above Ness - ness is about one tier above him in the current metagame, and he has more tournament results to back it up. pkt2 tailwhip combos are nasty and can guarantee kills on several characters at around 40-60%. and unlike lucas, his air game is very strong

luigi is placed twice - just wanted to point that out

The entire high mid section with the exception of DK, maayybe lucario - Pit Wolf Toon Link Luigi Pikachu were all very hyped at launch... and since then have sputtered off to mid tier obscurity. they have done very little to put them above characters who are actually doing well like fox and the ice climbers. if you wanna go off tournament results, switch mid with high mid (with the exceptions of dk, diddy, and arguably lucario)

Olimar - he hasn't done anything to set himself above the rest. his recovery is a severe handicap on an otherwise good character. i'd expect to see him more around top of mid, because whilehe is good, he has a few exploitable weaknesses

Game and watch in top tier - he isn't anywhere close to the level of wreckage that is snake and metaknight, he's barely top 5 in results, why above someone like ddd?


EDIT: also, 7 part tier lists are kinda over doing it, 5 works fine

 

[gallax]

i just want to point out that there are few pika users out there so you cant really go by tourney results cuz everyone is using MK or snake. There are only 2 good pika players in Florida right now. 2!!!!!!

 

[itsthebigfoot]

but you can go by tournament results, because if the character was actually better than meta/snake than they would win instead, even if the other character was more popular

if the character had no wins but an extreme amount of 8th place finishes then you could argue popularity, but a win is a win, to consistently win, regardless of popularity, shows how good the character is. G&W has not consistently won as muchas ddd, snake, and metaknight, so i can't see him as top tier

 

[Scala]

Yoshi definitely doesn't deserve bottom tier. I thought he was god-awful when the game came out and never even touched him. Recently, though, I've decided to pick him up and have spent a good 80% of my time playing with him and I find that he has A LOT of potential.

I think most people who put him in the bottom have never actually played him. I believe a significant factor in his consistently low placings in these mock tiers is due to his unpopularity (because of his stigma of being a terrible character from the last two games). He really has a lot of things going for him. I think his recovery is actually one of yoshi's strong points. Most of the time when I get gimped it's because of a mistake I made rather than a flaw in his recovery. He has the fastest lateral air movement in the game and some interesting character-specific ATs that could open new possibilities up for him in the future. Also, he has an infinite on Wario and a chaingrab (albeit rather weak) on a decent number of characters (including Metaknight).

Sonic is one I also think will move up a bit later on. I think he'll settle in lower because I think some people will make good use of his insane speed.

 

[chckn]

lyk zomg youre right yoshi for top tier! No. He does not have the tournament standings nor the matchups. His lack of up-b is punishable and his aerials are mediocre at best. YOSHI IS BOTTOM TIER.

 

[Shy Guy 86]

n00b Question: Is Sonic considered as a weaker Meta Knight?

 

[chckn]

n00b Question: Is Sonic considered as a weaker Meta Knight?

Please be joking

 

[RegalBuster]

G/w is if not top tier in the top of the high tier.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Yoshi definitely doesn't deserve bottom tier. I thought he was god-awful when the game came out and never even touched him. Recently, though, I've decided to pick him up and have spent a good 80% of my time playing with him and I find that he has A LOT of potential.

I think most people who put him in the bottom have never actually played him. I believe a significant factor in his consistently low placings in these mock tiers is due to his unpopularity (because of his stigma of being a terrible character from the last two games). He really has a lot of things going for him. I think his recovery is actually one of yoshi's strong points. Most of the time when I get gimped it's because of a mistake I made rather than a flaw in his recovery. He has the fastest lateral air movement in the game and some interesting character-specific ATs that could open new possibilities up for him in the future. Also, he has an infinite on Wario and a chaingrab (albeit rather weak) on a decent number of characters (including Metaknight).

Sonic is one I also think will move up a bit later on. I think he'll settle in lower because I think some people will make good use of his insane speed.

Alright, no, just no, You've asked for copypasta, you are getting it.


Because using actual Data which Tier lists are based on...... where else could we really put him?

His tournament results are bad, and in the summer rankings he hasn't even PLACED yet while characters even worse than him have (CF >_>). And before you bring in the "Well that's because no one uses him" argument, That's the fault of the Yoshi community. Perhaps they need to step their game up, come to tournaments and show us how good Yoshi really is instead of the boatload of the whining that goes on when he's placed at the bottom of a Tier list, or maybe Yoshi really is that bad.

The thing is, how can we honestly think he's good if you guys don't put out in the Metagame?

His Matchups are bad, and before you ask yes, I do say this from the Matchup chart COMBINED with my own personal research/insight and some from intellectual posters. Even if you changed all of his disputed even matchups to advantages, he'd still have worse matchups than a wide majority of the characters in the game. In terms of relaivity, in terms of just showing which characters have good and bad matchups, that chart is fairly accurate for the most part.

Now as for the potential part.....does that really even matter until it's actually applied in the tournament scene? Hell look at Toon Link, he was looking to be pretty dominant, but what happened? He's barely placing like, at all (Altough granted, this actually might be a case where the simply underused argument is viable, his Matchups are great for the most part) Sure, all of can debate and discuss a character's strengths and weaknesses here, but what truly matters is that what happens when it's actually applied in a tournament setting. Sure theorycrafting is nice and can be very productive, but it's all moot if experimental and factual evidence proves otherwise. Take the ICs and Diddy for example, many thought with the Infinte Grabs that the ICs would become broken and maybe even Top Tier, but when you actually look at tourney results, the truth is shown that it's far from that, because simply the best of players know to not get grabbed and the fact that they are relatively hard to learn drives away others, keeping them from being consistently used. Diddy with his hax Nanerz mindgames was thought to be a very capable and possibly Very High Tier canadate, but again look at tourney results as of now, this doesn't seem to be the case at all. Now look at a character like Ike, I personally hate him with a burning passion, and think he's way too laggy and predictable to be of any use, but the thing is he's still placing relatively well aside from that. Now i'm not denying that these characters aren't good or bad, and in fact they are actually starting to rise/drop in performance respectively, but we cannot rely our opinions on just theorycraft alone, we have to see how these things actually play out in a real life situation and make judgements from there.

Bottom Line: Tier Lists need to be based on the Present, not the future



For what it's worth, I don't think Yoshi will stay bottom tier, and hopefully will rise to at least low. As a character in terms of potential he isn't all that great, but certainly not amongst the likes of Link Captain Falcon and Jigglypuff. But the problem is, you Yoshi mainers need to show us what he can do, not just be a no show and give us no choice for his common placing.

 

[chckn]

G/w is if not top tier in the top of the high tier.

This is blatantly obvious, yet trolls/first time posters still find the need to debat this. Top is Snake/Mk. gg tier list

 

[Pieisthebest]

n00b Question: Is Sonic considered as a weaker Meta Knight?

LMAO

But to not be an ***, the answer is no

 

[chckn]

Alright, no, just no, You've asked for copypasta, you are getting it.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Thanks for saving me the time with the copy pasta. Im tired of telling this to every single person who plays Yoshi and thinks he deserves to be high tier.

 

[bigman40]

Didn't Pride place 7th in a recent tournament? I'm pretty sure that he told me about it too over AIM. Why is his not included then?

EDIT: Chckn, no one said Yoshi deserves high tier. That would be stupid to believe that. They only say that he doesn't deserve bottom tier. Stop making assumptions.

 

[Kiwikomix]

Here goes... I've been saving up a rant forever, it looks like it's time to use it.
Let me start by saying that Yoshi is AT MOST bottom of mid. Upper/middle low is where I'm most comfortable with placing him.

His tournament results are bad, and in the summer rankings he hasn't even PLACED yet while characters even worse than him have (CF >_>).

This is unarguable, his tourney results are awful. Yet I do remember that a Yoshi (Pr!de) recently placed 7th in an NYC Weekly Tourney. Your guess is as good as mine why he's still unranked.

And before you bring in the "Well that's because no one uses him" argument, That's the fault of the Yoshi community. Perhaps they need to step their game up, come to tournaments and show us how good Yoshi really is instead of the boatload of the whining that goes on when he's placed at the bottom of a Tier list, or maybe Yoshi really is that bad.

I'm going to a tourney later this month. Doesn't mean I can place, and I'll probably use Kirby more than Yoshi, but at least I'm trying. If you haven't noticed, I'm a lot better at analyzing Brawl than playing it.

His Matchups are bad, and before you ask yes, I do say this from the Matchup chart COMBINED with my own personal research/insight and some from intellectual posters. Even if you changed all of his disputed even matchups to advantages, he'd still have worse matchups than a wide majority of the characters in the game. In terms of relaivity, in terms of just showing which characters have good and bad matchups, that chart is fairly accurate for the most part.

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=176831
Yoshi Matchup Thread, not finished yet.
Please go there. I have done my best to eliminate main bias (also known as the people there saying that MK is 5:5). Yoshi has a lot of poor matchups so far, but do note that he has a better chance in MK/Snake matches than most established low/bottom tier characters. Also, he is an Olimar counter... not that that's the end-all of matchup discussion.
I would project that his matchups are average... the reason most you see there are disadvantaged are because we are focusing on those first.

Stuff about potential, and Toon Link, and Ike, etc.

This boils down to the whole "Yoshi should be used in tournies first" thing, which I already addressed above.

Bottom Line: Tier Lists need to be based on the Present, not the future

Can't argue that, I completely agree.

I've noticed a lot of us around these forums have been saying "bottom line" a lot recently

 

[chckn]

Here goes... I've been saving up a rant forever, it looks like it's time to use it.
Let me start by saying that Yoshi is AT MOST bottom of mid. Upper/middle low is where I'm most comfortable with placing him.

I was exaggerating when I said that Yoshi players wanted him in high tier(although you would be surprised as to what some people have posted), educated plosters such as yourself realize that he is never going to be that high but that is beside the point. I am not in any way biased towards Yoshi or anyother character, but the argument that you just made is the same argument made by almost every single player of a low/bottom tier character. CF mains, Jiggs mains, Link mains, all make that same argument about their character's potential and how he matches up even with certain characters(which very well may be true). The problem is that you cannot have a mid tier with every single lower end character in the game. Although the gap b/w characters may not be large some characters will have to drop to those low/bottom tier spots. I'm not saying Yoshi can't, I mean who knows he may start winning tourneys out of the blue and move up to mid tier like you say, but until then, imo he really cannot move past the mid/bottom of low.

 

[Kiwikomix]

Absolutely... don't get me wrong, I understand that. What I'm saying is that he has pretty much no chance of hanging with the characters like Peach, Mario and Sheik who will more likely end up in lower mid. But I know that he's at least > or = Ike, for example, who I project will end up in mid low.

 

[chckn]

agreed

10agreements

 

[Rambo23]

Top:
Snake
Meta Knight
Game and Watch

High:
Marth
DeDeDe
Olimar
ROB
Falco
Wario

High Mid:
Zelda
Kirby
Ice Climbers
Lucario
Donkey Kong

Mid:
Diddy Kong
Fox
Pit
Wolf
Toon Link
Luigi
Pikachu

Lower Mid:
Lucas
Ness
Sheik
Mario

Low:
Sonic
Ike
Bowser
Pokemon Trainer
Ganondorf
Peach
Link

Bottom:
Samus
Yoshi
Captain Falcon
Jigglypuff

made some changes I moved Yoshi up so stop whining but I still believe Jigglypuff to be the absolute worst character in the game.

 

[bigman40]

Bottom:
Samus
Yoshi
Captain Falcon
Jigglypuff

made some changes I moved Yoshi up so stop whining

Oh thank you soo much. You want a cookie for moving him up because ppl whine?

 

[Rambo23]

sure what the hell

 

[bigman40]

Well you know what? Go drive to the store, and buy your own **** cookies.

 

[chckn]

sure what the hell

criteria for a good tier list:

1.listening to peoples complaints and changing placement solely to make people happy.
2. Your own personal bias
3. Placing characters you do not have any experience with solely on what youve read people post in the last few pages

ps. gg Rambo

pss. Just saw youre movie and it was pretty good

 

[Rambo23]

the stop whining thing was sarcasm I took the fact that he actually placed into account for the move

 

[powell651234]

confused...

Rant Begins:

Now, I'm probably nowhere near as good a player as the other people on here.

I dont know what the highest level of metagame is like.

I only play with my group of friends, where I am the best player (or tied for best).
I do long for a more competitive scene so I can test the limits of my potential, and you may be about to cringe at the noobishness of my opinion.

My defense is that even though you guys would consider me a casual player, my love of the game has made me a registered user on these boards.

Anyway, I am confused by this discussion of tiers.

I can see the merits of the players that you guys have placed in top/high tier. Snake can dominate/control the game, Meta is blindingly fast, G+W has an endless arsenal (b-air is godly, always breaks shield).

But to say that the characters that y'all have placed in lower tier and bottom tier have no chance against those characters...is well....pathetic.

I feel that if one of you was placed in that match up, you would be expecting to lose, and therefore would...and in that the tier list is dominating you.

I see a lot of people saying stuff like, I can't compete with meta knight, all his moves out-prioritize mine....c'mon, Brawl is about strategy. Take Samus, who is a bottom tierer. If I was to face a meta knight with him, I'd pick him off in his beloved with air with spammy projectiles and z-air. I'd force him to come inside on me, and then if i'm a split second ahead of my opponent, meta knight's priority goes out the window.

I'm not saying that tiers dont exist, but the difference between top and bottom tier isn't as big as y'all make it out to be.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Rant Begins:

Now, I'm probably nowhere near as good a player as the other people on here.

I dont know what the highest level of metagame is like.

I only play with my group of friends, where I am the best player (or tied for best).
I do long for a more competitive scene so I can test the limits of my potential, and you may be about to cringe at the noobishness of my opinion.

My defense is that even though you guys would consider me a casual player, my love of the game has made me a registered user on these boards.

Anyway, I am confused by this discussion of tiers.

I can see the merits of the players that you guys have placed in top/high tier. Snake can dominate/control the game, Meta is blindingly fast, G+W has an endless arsenal (b-air is godly, always breaks shield).

But to say that the characters that y'all have placed in lower tier and bottom tier have no chance against those characters...is well....pathetic.

I feel that if one of you was placed in that match up, you would be expecting to lose, and therefore would...and in that the tier list is dominating you.

I see a lot of people saying stuff like, I can't compete with meta knight, all his moves out-prioritize mine....c'mon, Brawl is about strategy. Take Samus, who is a bottom tierer. If I was to face a meta knight with him, I'd pick him off in his beloved with air with spammy projectiles and z-air. I'd force him to come inside on me, and then if i'm a split second ahead of my opponent, meta knight's priority goes out the window.

I'm not saying that tiers dont exist, but the difference between top and bottom tier isn't as big as y'all make it out to be.

Can someone else do this for me? I have my hands full owning faces in TF2 >_>.

*Does Pyro taunt*

 

[chckn]

Rant Begins:



But to say that the characters that y'all have placed in lower tier and bottom tier have no chance against those characters...is well....pathetic.

I feel that if one of you was placed in that match up, you would be expecting to lose, and therefore would...and in that the tier list is dominating you.

I see a lot of people saying stuff like, I can't compete with meta knight, all his moves out-prioritize mine....c'mon, Brawl is about strategy. Take Samus, who is a bottom tierer. If I was to face a meta knight with him, I'd pick him off in his beloved with air with spammy projectiles and z-air. I'd force him to come inside on me, and then if i'm a split second ahead of my opponent, meta knight's priority goes out the window.

I'm not saying that tiers dont exist, but the difference between top and bottom tier isn't as big as y'all make it out to be.

Comments such as these are made my stupid posters. You have to be very very ignorant to believe that if you pick snake you win and if you pick jiggs or cf you lose. Ive beaten snakes before with my jiggs but that still doesnt mean she is any better. A tier list doesnt determine which characters you can or cannot win with. A tier list determines which characters have an advantage in metagame as well as positive matchups. Many players use low tier characters and still place in tournaments. Using a low tier character only means that you will have to work that much harder to play competitively.

10hopethishelps

*edit* taken care of , what is your tier list looking like now btw?

 

[Tim_The_Enchanter]

So essentially, this thread has becoming a place for noobs to come and get flamed and made fun off by Nigerian and ckckn?

 

[chckn]

So essentially, this thread has becoming a place for noobs to come and get flamed and made fun off by Nigerian and ckckn?

Not flaming, explaining to him that comments such as you cannot win with low tier characts are made by ignorant players and to disregard them.

 

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

Not flaming, explaining to him that comments such as you cannot win with low tier characts are made by ignorant players and to disregard them.

Unfortunately, the only 2008 poster who DO want to learn and evolve as player are already leading this discussion, and are likely members of that SFR that you guys created. I love seeing the new community doing what it can, it makes me warm and fuzzy inside.

The majority of 2008 people are casuals or semi-casuals that give very little care to the tournament metagame or how the average tournament goer thinks. Trying to explain them the tournament mindset is nearly impossible, and all they really do for this community is create strife amongst the people using this site for its original purpose, improving the tournament community.

Now, back on topic, has anyone noticed that those characters that we thought were bad are ending back up in the Unranked category? Especially Ganon. I still don't see how people think he could crawl out of bottom tier. One 40% combo and tech chasing don't mean crap if you can never land the first hit, after all.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

So essentially, this thread has becoming a place for noobs to come and get flamed and made fun off by Nigerian and ckckn?

Basicially, except sometimes Smooth, Emblem Lord, COREY, Kiwi, and Lobelia join in >_>.

 

[chckn]

Unfortunately, the only 2008 poster who DO want to learn and evolve as player are already leading this discussion, and are likely members of that SFR that you guys created. I love seeing the new community doing what it can, it makes me warm and fuzzy inside.

The majority of 2008 people are casuals or semi-casuals that give very little care to the tournament metagame or how the average tournament goer thinks. Trying to explain them the tournament mindset is nearly impossible, and all they really do for this community is create strife amongst the people using this site for its original purpose, improving the tournament community.

Now, back on topic, has anyone noticed that those characters that we thought were bad are ending back up in the Unranked category? Especially Ganon. I still don't see how people think he could crawl out of bottom tier. One 40% combo and tech chasing don't mean crap if you can never land the first hit, after all.

Like I said before, people do not like to accept the fact that maybe gannon is just bottom. His tech chasing and that combo are alright but like I said his approach/startup lag make it so hard for him to even get the first hit. I have seen very very few competitive ganons beside sliq's and a couple others, and many gannon players rarely use him competitively anyways because of his terrible matchups.

 

[Kiwikomix]

Basicially, except sometimes Smooth, Emblem Lord, Kiwi, and Lobelia join in >_>.

LoL, usually it's everyone else you named that Emblem Lord makes fun of >.<
That's all right with me, everyone (including me) needs to take at least some **** every now and then, if only to keep them in line.

As for Ganon... well, it doesn't look like much good is happening for him, does it? Back down to unranked once again... If his tournament performance had continued, he may have had a chance at bottom of low. Too bad

 

[Yuna-Maria]

Basicially, except sometimes Smooth, Emblem Lord, Kiwi, and Lobelia join in >_>.

Hell yes. I wouldn't miss this party for the world.