Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[Sudsy86_]

Sudsy86_ made a post that contains one of the most inaccurate tier lists in history.
All it needs to break the record is god-tier Ike.

Here's something to take home with you:

(Premise) Meta-game exists; therefore Ike isn't so much.

Now, what might I be implying here?

 

[Unusual_Rex]

A (U) beside a name means they could possibly move up on the list.
A (D) beside a name means they could possibly move down on the list.
An (N) beside the name means they could possibly move up or down on the list.

Top Tiers:

Snake (D)
Meta Knight (D)
Mr. Game & Watch (D)
Marth (N)

High Tiers:

Falco (U)
R.O.B (D)
Toon Link (N)
King Dedede (N)
Pikachu (N)
Wario (D)

Upper Mid Tiers:

Pit (N)
Wolf (N)
Captain Olimar (U)
Donkey Kong (N)
Lucario (N)
Zelda (U)

Mid Mid Tiers:

Ice Climbers (N)
Ike (D)
Fox (U)
Zero Suit Samus (U)
Diddy Kong (N)
Luigi (N)
Lucas (D)

Low Mid Tiers:

Squirtle (D)
Ness (D)
Mario (N)
Sonic (U)
Sheik (U)
Kirby (N)

Low Tiers:

Ivysaur (N)
Link (U)
Peach (D)
Charizard (U)
Bowser (N)
Captain Falcon (U)

Bottom Tiers:

Ganondorf (U)
Samus (U)
Jigglypuff (U)
Yoshi (U)

Please comment on what you think about my tier list.

 

[adumbrodeus]

adumbrodeus, you included Kirby twice in your list

NOOOOOOOO! You revealed my secret strategy for making my tier list the worst ever! If all else failed, the simple fact that it had a single character listed twice would guarantee inaccuracy greater then any other attempt.

Alas, I am undone...

lol

 

[metalmonstar]

could be worse...

GOD:
Wolf, Ike
High:
Fox, Ganon, Link, Sonic, Lucas, PT, Peach
Upper:
Purin, Shiek, Ike, Capt. Falcon, Kirby, Samus, Mario,
Mid:
Marth, DDD, Metaknight, Luigi, Yoshi
Low:
Wario, DK, Zelda, Diddy, Olimar, Pit, IC, GnW,
Lower:
ROB, Bowser, Falco, Snake, Lucario, Kirby
Bottom:
Ness(STUPID INFINIMARTH GRAB!!!! IT RUINS HIM COMPLETELY!)

Mine is better plus I am quoting the whole list like a noob even when viers told us not to. I am a tier w***** I main Ike.

Top Tier
Olimar – He has no bad matchups. His only flaw is his recovery but edgehogging is a cheap tactic and no one does it.
Captain Falcon- Knee, Falcon punch, and Falcon Kick alone make him awesome.
Gannondorf- Falcon with no Knee but more power and slower.
Ike – He just owns wifi
Diddy Kong – those bananas are too good.

Very High
Wolf- you can’t beat Laser spam and fsmash
Pit- The best recovery ever and arrow spam is so unbeatable. He is just too good with two reflectors and a projectile. Side b racks up 40 damage.
Pikachu-All they have to do is spam thunder and they beat me on wifi.
Toon Link- He just spams up b.
Link- See toon link but not as good.

High
Sonic- He is just too fast and too cheap
Zero Suit Samus- Pretty hot if you ask me.
Zelda- also pretty good looking
Pokemon Trainer- Three character in one what could be better
Mario- Major Buffs from Melee
Yoshi- he has a lot of tricks now.
Bowser-Also buffed from Melee
Lucario- He gets stronger as he takes damage. Aura is so cool.

Mid-
Ness- He is pretty awesome.
Marth- He isn’t roy or Ike
Fox- He got nerfed
Falco- His reflector sucks now
Mr. Game and Watch – a little bit better now.
Snake- Fsmash is good but too slow.
Jigglypuff- rest and rollout are still cheap.

Low
Sheik-Not as godly as she was in melee.
Lucas- he is so lame and wimpy
Luigi- He is still not that great
Ice climbers- Killing nana is too easy and makes them worthless. Chaingrabbing has been bad.
Wario- He is clunky and lame.
Donkey Kong- Nowhere near as good as Diddy

Bottom
Samus- She would be hotter without the suit.
Peach-Super nerfed.
Kirby- He gets koed to easily
Metaknight-Same problem as Kirby
Dedede- His moves come out way too slow. Chaingrabbing is banned which makes him no good.
R.O.B.- why did they put him in this game. He is so bad. He isn’t even a game character.

Is that not the best tier list you have ever seen? I even gave reasons for my opinion.
People who disagree obviously have no skill at Brawl or can’t see what is obvious.

 

[DanGR]

lol at adumbrodeus. Mario above Olimar. This will NEVER happen.

 

[Grunt]

His reach does counter him well, I just find it hard to have a useful meta game with DK, considering the only moves you truly have to look out for are his jabs, charge punch, up+b, and back air; everything else is slow and should RARELY connect on a smart, patient, aware player.
I'm not very consistent with DK, but his one-on-one ability isn't much, especially considering how large he is and how piss poor his recovery is vertically. ( also, isn't DK another one of those characters whose "best" users all really vary little in creativeness?)

Ftilt, utilt, and nair stop MK in his tracks.

Of course I have ( of their infinites): the strong gravity makes infinites not too difficult in MELEE. The Climbers really only have one realistic way of beating you: desynched chain grabs/ smashes. Other than that, they suck all sorts of genitals--seriously.

Uh, no they don't. since brawl is very defense oriented, using their grabs well is key, and not very hard. their hammers have Hax hitboxes on almost every move they use them with, and desynching can do much more than grabs, like Ice block lock, or Blizzard annoyingness.

Also, if you repeatedly tap dodge and jump simultaneously, you can most certainly escape the second grab/smash attack if not the first.

Uh, if they do it right, they only have to grab you for a split second. Alternating grabs between Icies is a TRUE infinite. i have no idea why your talking about smashes in their infinite.

The way I play is to keep my opponents spaced, use characters who can attack from long distances, keep them from grabbing me, jump constantly to further the cause, and be patient.

Sounds like every good Brawl player.

Everyone tries to grab almost as much as they smash spam; therefore, it is clear sense I should jump: that way I avoid the two most commonly used attacks and have a timing advantage ( though not necessarily a position advantage) once they miss.

wow, play better people. no one good smash spams, or grab spams.

The Climbers are too predictable, even with the better users: b,b,b,b, dash, attempt to grab, smash, repeat. There is very little you can do with the Climbers, I'm sorry. I don't know who would be mindless enough to get caught into more than two grab/ smash combos in a three stock match.

Stop assuming everyone plays the same, and also sucks too.

Basically, I don't give too much of a darn about tourney placings.

you should, as that is how tier lists are made.

Good users are going to beat inferior users 80 percent of the time at least

NO! NONONONONONONO!

Better players Should ALWAYS WIN! ALWAYS! otherwise there is too much randomness in the game, and is uncompetitive.

therefore the fact that the better player used a certain character in his winning doesn't NECESSARILY mean much for that character. Of course, I'm not saying the best users choose characters for no good reason, but Azen's pissbucket will defeat above-average Bob's Snake or MK any day.

Like i said before, Better players should always win.
Tier lists are based off of tourney data, and character matchups, AS LONG AS skill is not a factor, AND are at the highest level of play.

so yes, Azen should beat any average player with anyone he wants.

 

[SaxDude93]

A (U) beside a name means they could possibly move up on

Marth is good, but not in the same league as Snake, MK, G&W. Ike in mid-mid is fail. And lol at Falcon above people.

Also, I thought it was decided that Azen cheats

 

[Unusual_Rex]

Marth is good, but not in the same league as Snake, MK, G&W. Ike in mid-mid is fail. And lol at Falcon above people.

Also, I thought it was decided that Azen cheats

Captain Falcon isn't that bad, same with Ike, were would you place them?

 

[Grunt]

Captain Falcon isn't that bad, same with Ike, were would you place them?

Thank you, i'm adding this to my sig.
EDIT:
**** IT! i'll cut something ...

there we go!

 

[SaxDude93]

Captain Falcon isn't that bad, same with Ike, were would you place them?

Ike low
Falcon-Dead last. Maybe above Jiggs. MAYBE

 

[adumbrodeus]

Captain Falcon isn't that bad, same with Ike, were would you place them?

Ike possibly.... he needs to get respectable tournament results again.

Captain falcon, God no. He lacks priority and just doesn't have enough advantages to make up for that issue. Add that to an overall bad moveset (lol at combo-based in a game with Brawl's hitstun), and you've the quintessential bottom tier character.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragnarok17
adumbrodeus, you included Kirby twice in your list

NOOOOOOOO! You revealed my secret strategy for making my tier list the worst ever! If all else failed, the simple fact that it had a single character listed twice would guarantee inaccuracy greater then any other attempt.

Alas, I am undone...

lol

lol

Do you guys think that the creators of Brawl ever tried to actually test out the game to see balancedness?

 

[adumbrodeus]

lol

Do you guys think that the creators of Brawl ever tried to actually test out the game to see balancedness?

Perfect balance is impossible unless characters are absolutely identical. It requires balancing of an infinite number of factors.

Yes, they did test it, regardless they didn't end up fixing a major gap between captain falcon and snake....

 

[Veng]

Do Lucas or Mario have any Major or slightly major Problems that could make tourneys horrible?

 

[Grunt]

Do Lucas or Mario have any Major or slightly major Problems that could make tourneys horrible?

Grab release. not as bad on lucas as it is on ness though.
Mario gets infinited by DDD.

 

[Tien2500]

lol

Do you guys think that the creators of Brawl ever tried to actually test out the game to see balancedness?

The thing is that I don't think that balancedness was really the #1 focus of the development. I don't think the game is really meant to be a competitive fighter. Surely Sakurai is aware that this segment of gamers exists but they are not the primary focus. There are many ways to play the game some of which suit certain characters.

Lets look at Ike for example. Ike absolutely dominates in timed matches (yes some people do play these). He's also better generally in FFAs where predictability is less of an issue with all the chaos going on making it hard to really zero in on what he's doing.

Sonic is another great example. When you put items on he's suddenly a hundred times better. Items help compensate for his lack of KO potential and he has one of the best final smashes in the game.

Some characters also get worse in different environment. Dedede's infinites and chaingrabs are harder to use with other people getting in the way. Ice Climbers also suffer for this reason. Characters that rely on heavy projectile spam and camp tactics suffer with more characters.

Basically what I'm saying is that you've chosen to play a game competitively which wasn't really designed (or at least wasn't designed exclusively) for that type of gameplay. As such you have to deal with issues such as (somewhat) poor balance.

I just felt I had to say this to people who complain about Brawl's lack of balance. Carry on with tier discussion.

 

[Browny]

oh god metal monstar list was the funniest thing ive read in a long time :D

 

[GhettoSheep]

oh god metal monstar list was the funniest thing ive read in a long time :D

lulz, QFT, I hope it was a joke, or its even funnier.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

lulz, QFT, I hope it was a joke, or its even funnier.

It is, lolz.

 

[Veng]

Guys, ness is horrible I just realized about his being infinited

I honestly dont want to main him anymore and I plan on taking the next couple of weeks to learn a new character to the fullest.

What I was thinking was one of these three.
Wario
Pikachu
Zelda

Can anyone explain which one would be the best to devote my time into and which one would have the best results?

 

[Eclipse_the_Sun]

Top
Snake,MK

Very High
G and W,Falco,Dedede,Marth,ROB

High
Wario,T Link,Pit,Olimar,IC's,Pika,DK,Zelda,Wolf,Fox

Middle
ZSS,Lucario,Luigi,Mario,PT,Bowser,Lucas,Shiek,Ike

Low
Sonic,Ness,Yoshi,Samus,Peach,Link

Bottom
Jiggs,Ganon,C. Falcon

Aside from not includeing kirby or diddy i think this is one of the better lists that have been posted recently. Is there anything else that is wrong with it?

 

[Dpete]

Guys, ness is horrible I just realized about his being infinited

I honestly dont want to main him anymore and I plan on taking the next couple of weeks to learn a new character to the fullest.

What I was thinking was one of these three.
Wario
Pikachu
Zelda

Can anyone explain which one would be the best to devote my time into and which one would have the best results?

The tier list discussion is definitely not the place to ask this. Why I choose to acknowledge this post, I don't even know. Just play who you like.

 

[Veng]

The tier list discussion is definitely not the place to ask this. Why I choose to acknowledge this post, I don't even know. Just play who you like.

Thanks for the input?

 

[Blistering Speed]

I just saw someone put Marth in middle tier....because it's easy to hit him.....after his animation is done

THERE IS NO GOD, THE END IS NEAR!

 

[Frate]

Guys, ness is horrible I just realized about his being infinited

I honestly dont want to main him anymore and I plan on taking the next couple of weeks to learn a new character to the fullest.

What I was thinking was one of these three.
Wario
Pikachu
Zelda

Can anyone explain which one would be the best to devote my time into and which one would have the best results?

Wario. Just watch Futile and... what's that other guy called's videos

 

[Blistering Speed]

Blue sHell, but such things should not be discussed here.

 

[Mike_Echoes]

My own Tier List this time.

The (OR)'s are because I need input on a better placement. I couldn't decide where they should go

Top Tier:
Snake
Meta Knight
Mr. Game and Watch

Very High Tier:
Marth
Falco
R.O.B.
Toon Link
Zelda
Pikachu
King Dedede

High Tier:
(OR) King Dedede
Wolf
Wario
Olimar
Ice Climbers
Kirby
Pit
Donkey Kong
Luigi

Mid Tier:
Lucario
Zero Suit Samus
Diddy Kong
Lucas
Sonic
Pokemon Trainer
Fox
Bowser
Sheik

Low Tier:
(OR)Sheik
Ness
Mario
lke
Peach
Yoshi
Link
Samus

Bottom Tier:
(OR) Samus
Jigglypuff
Ganondorf

Too Cool For Tiers Tier:
Captain Falcon

 

[Browny]

i am now of the opinion G&W is flat out broken and best in the game, and PT is the worst. snake is far too cool to be called broken (the nair is the definition of ****) and MK is a little weak to projectiles.

 

[Blistering Speed]

For the mo, MK and Snake are still over G&W, but he is now top tier imo, with the fourth character being in very high tier (Marth btw)

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I can never figure out why some people consider Peach a low tier fighter. I know that she's been nerfed, but I don't think she was nerfed THAT bad (she's not at major nerf city like Captain Falcon, Jigglypuff, and Ganondorf).

I think to myself, people must be ranking Peach low tier, because they either hate her, never used her correctly, or talked too much about her cons (such as a poor midair jump and a weaker d-smash).

Also, I'm surprised that Wolf hasn't been getting some upper tier respect. He IMO deserves that spot for having so many methods for killing opponents. Recovery might be an issue, but it's not that terrible once you've figured it out.

 

[Browny]

Also, I'm surprised that Wolf hasn't been getting some upper tier respect. He IMO deserves that spot for having so many methods for killing opponents. Recovery might be an issue, but it's not that terrible once you've figured it out.

wtf?
wolfs KO moves are like, d/usmash, bair. thats it. his spike would be good if his recovery wasnt so bad, accidentally FF the dair and theres no guarantee on returning to the stage.

that said wolf should still be in the top 12 at least, but his kill moves are very predictable and short ranged, although powerful.

 

[DanGR]

My own Tier List this time.

I'd put DK higher. He's good in tourneys with good matchups.

 

[gantrain05]

jeez, i guess im going to have to take ness out of low tier myself since nobody seems to be bringing him out of low tier, he's not that bad people, he's actually quite good, along with peach, sheesh, goin to a tourney tomorrow, i'll post the results.

 

[St. Viers]

He isn't bad, but you can really only use him to counterpick, or else marths will run all over you--even people who don't know marth in brawl well can use their melee marths and win...>_<

 

[Doodx]

some of my opinions about certain characters:
i actualy believe falcon is very underated. I never played falcon in brawl (lol) so u cant call me a fanboy but even though he got nerfed he is still not as bad as people say he is. i used to think he completely sucked but after playing a very skilled falcon, i think he has some more potential than what people think he has
and i think that ivisaur is underated aswell. his recovery sucks but he is also very good when he is not recovering. his up smash can kill at crazy low % like 40 or something and he is not slow. he also has projectiles and his up b is very powerfull if sweetspoted. it stagespikes people when not in invincibility frames and hanging on ledge and he also has good range and fast attacks.
i also think ike is very overrated he deserves low or mid in my opinion (sorry) he can only be played with mindgames because he doesnt have many fast attacks and his recovery can be easily gimped by many chars.
i also believe lucario should be at least mid high or high tier. i believe in the future he will show alot of potential because of his combos

 

[St. Viers]

You're right about ike and lucario, but lets look at capfal and ivysaur.

CapFal: he's a melee character simply dropped into the brawl physics engine, which doen't work out in his favor. He can't combo, and his recovery still is gimpable. He used to be able to make up for general lack of priority with his speed and combos, but neither of those are as useful in brawl, as you can just powershield his approches, and sidestep grabs.

Due to lack of useful dash-dancing, he can really make you guess when he is gonna approach wrong to the same degree as he could in melee.

Ivysaur: She's a good defensive character, but if they just stay away and wait for her to tire, she won't do much damage. Also, unless you spam perfectly spaced b-airs, they can get through your defense, and her weight, plus lack of recovery options screws her.

 

[KevinM]

Who decided that DK was bad or slow.. because they're bad at brawl lol

 

[OrlanduEX]

My own Tier List this time.

The (OR)'s are because I need input on a better placement. I couldn't decide where they should go

Top Tier:
Snake
Meta Knight
Mr. Game and Watch

Very High Tier:
Marth
Falco
R.O.B.
Toon Link
Zelda
Pikachu
King Dedede

High Tier:
(OR) King Dedede
Wolf
Wario
Olimar
Ice Climbers
Kirby
Pit
Donkey Kong
Luigi

Mid Tier:
Lucario
Zero Suit Samus
Diddy Kong
Lucas
Sonic
Pokemon Trainer
Fox
Bowser
Sheik

Low Tier:
(OR)Sheik
Ness
Mario
lke
Peach
Yoshi
Link
Samus

Bottom Tier:
(OR) Samus
Jigglypuff
Ganondorf

Too Cool For Tiers Tier:
Captain Falcon

I'm thinking Peach, Ness, Lucas, Fox, Mario, and Pit need to be higher up on this list.
Pikachu, Zamus, and Bowser should be lower down.

 

[St. Viers]

Who decided that DK was bad or slow.. because they're bad at brawl lol

who are you again =P but yeah, agreed...DK is beast

you playing brawl now?

 

[Doodx]

You're right about ike and lucario, but lets look at capfal and ivysaur.

CapFal: he's a melee character simply dropped into the brawl physics engine, which doen't work out in his favor. He can't combo, and his recovery still is gimpable. He used to be able to make up for general lack of priority with his speed and combos, but neither of those are as useful in brawl, as you can just powershield his approches, and sidestep grabs.

Due to lack of useful dash-dancing, he can really make you guess when he is gonna approach wrong to the same degree as he could in melee.

Ivysaur: She's a good defensive character, but if they just stay away and wait for her to tire, she won't do much damage. Also, unless you spam perfectly spaced b-airs, they can get through your defense, and her weight, plus lack of recovery options screws her.

yes but wouldnt ivysaur be at least in mid tier because he racks up damage VERY fast and has awesome ko moves
i would say that he is a very risky character because he kos well but also gets koed easily

falcon: dude his up air is really good and his b moves are still useable even though invincibility frams where lost on forward b. his knee was greatly nerfed but it can still kill at low percentages. i believe that someone that knows him well can be VERY good with captain falcon
btw he does have some small combos but they are nothing compared to the beast in melee