Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[SaxDude93]

My thoughts on Marth:

Yes, Marth is good. But he's Marth. He was in Melee. He hasn't' received any noticeable changes. Marth has just been stagnant. Everybody else above him in the list, are new characters or extremely buffed characters from Melee. I'm guessing that nobody wants to play as the same old character from Melee and everybody wants to play as someone new. Marth hasn't changed much. G&W has been buffed, Falco is different, but Marth...what has Marth done to make him different from Melee. Not much. He got a power boost. That's all I can think of off the top of my head.

inb4EmblemLordflames.

EDIT: And Hizzlum, the spacing thing and Ike is still in low tier.

 

[Dpete]

Tier List

I think Link is a bit too high, while Mario may be a little low.

 

[Kiwikomix]

Now I'm not sure what the situation is on Marth, but I wouldn;t be all too surprised if he lived in a region without too many Marths.

I distinctly remember EL saying that most of his area considered Marth "gutter trash".
I guess the popularity of characters is regional, eh?

low tier
any suggestions on change of placement?

Uh-oh. Seriously, Yoshi is not a good character, I know, but come on. He doesn't belong with the likes of Jiggz and Falcon. Not bottom...
Matchups... don't trust the chart. He has far better matchups than it shows.
Tourney results... well, I guess I can't argue with those. Until he starts getting some players in tournies, he might just belong in bottom. T_T

 

[adumbrodeus]

I distinctly remember EL saying that most of his area considered Marth "gutter trash".
I guess the popularity of characters is regional, eh?

Yeah, casuals, tournaments, anywhere, there seems to only be a very small number of people who use Marth at all around the East Coast. Really for me, it's the NY area, but still, I don't see anyone else playing him AT ALL. Nobody knows what a good Marth looks like because he's so unpopular.

 

[St. Viers]

I know a decent marth. I use him as well, but G&W is much more fun >_>

There need to be more, especially as marth owns battlefield, which is one of the most over played stages

 

[Veng]

Mario or Lucas who do you play and why.

 

[Veng]

I use all the evidence of smashboards from tournament rankings to going to characters match-up threads to put them into the correct placement. Your statement gives no evidence of why those characters are middle tier and thus your debate is flawed. sheikluigi and ness has not done well in tournies nad do not have good match-ups as I went to all there thread to see they have disadvantages against 3/4 -5/8 of the cast. Ike just has bad match-ups and sub par potencial.And ness has hard counters that give his opponent(marth, charizard and to an extent G&W) an easy win, a gimpable recovery, his only outstanding trait is his bthrow=killthrow but that doesent win tournies.

If you give evidence, I will reconsider, it's as simple as that.

Please help be commenting on the chart so i can make a more accurate list of the metagame.

The five best tiers of brawl:

Top(Wins most tourneys and has great match-ups)
Snake
MK

High(The group that is slightly below the "Snake and MK standard")
G&W
DDD
Marth ( down )
ROB
Falco ( down )

Upper(Tournament playable characters who show they are slightly better than the majority of the characters in brawl)
Wario
Pikachu
Wolf
Lucario
DK
Pit
TL ( down)
Olimar

Middle Tier(Not rare to see in tournaments who have average match-ups and place worse than the upper tier in tournaments)
Kirby
IC's
Zelda ( down )
Fox
Diddy Kong
Lucas
ZSS

Low tier(A subdivision of middle that typically will not place well in tournaments and has overall bad match-ups)
Sonic
Shiek
Peach
Ness ( UP )
Ike
Luigi
Link
Mario ( UP )
(Squirtle)
(Charizard) }PT
(Ivysuar)
Samus
Bowser ( UP )
Others could be added to the low tier (i.e , yoshi,jiggs, ganon)but it is debateable if they should be pushed back to bottom beacuse of lack in tournament wins and match-ups,which are very slightly below par. Please help with my low tier and comment if I should change some of the higher tier placements.

(I used knowledgeable people's tier lists(i.e. ch0zen one), emblem lord's suggestions,ankoku's touranement rankings,combo videos for character potencial, constructive critizism,AT's and the matchup threads on smash boards to form the list, please reply if you like or not and suggest revision of placements)
Lol @saxdude93 i changed ike placement and I spaced lol

Bolded your horrid mistakes.

 

[Yuna-Maria]

Bolded your horrid mistakes.

You bolded the wrong ones, dum-dum. [/calpurniaaddams]
The list is wrong, but the things you stated were wrong were, in fact, right. The placement of Sheik as low, Lucario as high, and the Ice Climbers as mid, however......

 

[Veng]

This is hows its done.

"S" tier:
Snake
Meta Knight

"A" tier:
D3
ROB
Marth
G&W
Falco

"B"tier:
Toon Link
Pikachu
Pit
Wolf
DK
Wario

"C" Tier:
Kirby
IC's
Olimar
Fox
Lucas
Zelda
Diddy Kong
ZSS
Lucario
Bowser

"D" Tier:
Ike
Ness
Link
Luigi
Mario
Peach
Pokemon Trainer
Sheik
Samus

"F" Tier:
Captain Falcon
Sonic
Jigglypuff
Ganondorf
Yoshi

 

[SaxDude93]

This is hows its done.

Sir, your F tier fails horribly. Captain Falcon is the worst character in Brawl. He is not better than Sonic, despite the fact that Sonic is a douche. Yoshi is better than people give him credit for. And Ganondorf should be the top of bottom.

 

[Veng]

excuse me top tier *****

 

[Dpete]

excuse me top tier *****

Good rebuttal. I also liked how you made suggestions for hizzlum's list then didn't follow your own advice (Marth, Falco, Toon Link).

And for constructive criticism, I think Wario is a little low, while Link is a bit high.

 

[Veng]

Sorry guys i was in a bad mood lol.

But please do put mario on the very bottom, it makes me feel great knowing im using a "horrible" character.

 

[Yuna-Maria]

Sorry guys i was in a bad mood lol.

But please do put mario on the very bottom, it makes me feel great knowing im using a "horrible" character.

You're an idiot.
Just because you want someone to be bottom tier doesn't make them bottom tier. Low-tier morons like you make me sick.
Go back to whatever rathole you crawled out of and play with your fat teenager friends.

 

[Deleted member]

Veng, u are a disgrace to low tier mains everywhere. Mario is a good character. I dont even think he belongs in low tier, tho thats arguable.

 

[Veng]

You're an idiot.
Just because you want someone to be bottom tier doesn't make them bottom tier. Low-tier morons like you make me sick.
Go back to whatever rathole you crawled out of and play with your fat teenager friends.

No your an idiot.

I can care less if marios low tier THATS THE WHOLE POINT IM NOT A TIER *****.

did i say it made them bottom tier? ******** people in general like you make me sick. Seriosuly go get a life and learn to play.

 

[Veng]

you know.. i just need to shut up im makin gmyself look dumb.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

No your an idiot.

I can care less if marios low tier THATS THE WHOLE POINT IM NOT A TIER *****.

did i say it made them bottom tier? ******** people in general like you make me sick. Seriosuly go get a life and learn to play.

Have you looked in a mirror lately? Because you scream Hypocrite all over. Espiacially telling someone to get a life when you're on a VIDEO GAME MESSAGE BOARD.

Also, "No u" is not a smart rebuttal.

EDIT:Indeed you are.

 

[Onxy]

You're an idiot.
Just because you want someone to be bottom tier doesn't make them bottom tier. Low-tier morons like you make me sick.
Go back to whatever rathole you crawled out of and play with your fat teenager friends.

No your an idiot.

I can care less if marios low tier THATS THE WHOLE POINT IM NOT A TIER *****.

did i say it made them bottom tier? ******** people in general like you make me sick. Seriosuly go get a life and learn to play.

Why the hell is everyone getting so personal on this board?

 

[Frown]

Why the hell is everyone get so personal on this board?

Because they want their tier list to be the perfect one, and the only way to achiece that is to insult everybody else.

 

[SaxDude93]

you know.. i just need to shut up im makin gmyself look dumb.

OH SNAPS. Someone who finally realizes that by talking, he is an idiot.

It is better to keep your mouth shut and be assumed an idiot than to open your mouth and prove it beyond all doubt. -- Mark Twain

Off-Topic: Anyone download FireFox3 today? I did.

 

[Grunt]

no one is a tier wh0re as there is no tier list.
it just goes to show, people can figure out what characters are good and which ones are bad for themselves.

Off-Topic: Anyone download FireFox3 today? I did

1 day ago.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

OH SNAPS. Someone who finally realizes that by talking, he is an idiot.

It is better to keep your mouth shut and be assumed an idiot than to open your mouth and prove it beyond all doubt. -- Mark Twain

Off-Topic: Anyone download FireFox3 today? I did.

Hooray for Mark Twain Quote!!!

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

saxdude93, in your post you said that marth hasn't changed much since Melee... I can see how you think this from your view, but as a past Marth main, Marth has changed quite a lot. His Fsmash, which is very important, has nerfed range, making it not nearly as good as before. The span of his aerial attacks have decreased a lot, and some of his ground attacks too (span as in the area that the attack covers). for instance, fair used to hit above him, to in front of him, to below him. In brawl, if pretending Marth is facing the right, his fair starts at a NE position and ends slightly to the right of the below-him mark.

And I can't tell if the following im gonna say is because it's just that in Brawl, many characters have gotten bigger, or if it really is this, but Marth's overall reach seems decreased, again Im not sure if may be this is just an illusion because the characters are bigger.

And I also don't really see how Marth got stronger, many say this, but I just don't feel it. Do they mean damage, or force, or both, or do they mean its easier to get a tipper since there's only 3 intervals instead of like 20, or do they mean just some attacks got better?

 

[SaxDude93]

saxdude93, in your post you said that marth hasn't changed much since Melee... I can see how you think this from your view, but as a past Marth main, Marth has changed quite a lot. His Fsmash, which is very important, has nerfed range, making it not nearly as good as before. The span of his aerial attacks have decreased a lot, and some of his ground attacks too (span as in the area that the attack covers). for instance, fair used to hit above him, to in front of him, to below him. In brawl, if pretending Marth is facing the right, his fair starts at a NE position and ends slightly to the right of the below-him mark.

And I can't tell if the following im gonna say is because it's just that in Brawl, many characters have gotten bigger, or if it really is this, but Marth's overall reach seems decreased, again Im not sure if may be this is just an illusion because the characters are bigger.

And I also don't really see how Marth got stronger, many say this, but I just don't feel it. Do they mean damage, or force, or both, or do they mean its easier to get a tipper since there's only 3 intervals instead of like 20, or do they mean just some attacks got better?

I agree what with you said, but in the general context of things, Marth's differences are quite minor in relation to G&W or Falco's differences. And that is what I was trying to get at. Marth's differences are minuet and border on technicality *****ing. I'm going at the fact, when somebody picks up Marth for the first time, n00b or vet, and see on the surface, he hasn't changed much from Melee, they would go on and try and like a new/buffed character.

 

[Grunt]

WHAT?!
This is brawl, everyone got nerfed. you cant kill until 120% with most moves.

 

[SaxDude93]

WHAT?!
This is brawl, everyone got nerfed. you cant kill until 120% with most moves.

Your avatar makes that quote 10X more awesome than it should be. And besides, G&W went from suck to great in the Melee/Brawl change.

 

[Theftz22]

Ugh, I'm so tired of Hizzlum acting like he's representing the opinions of this whole thread, and none of the people who are considered to have "credibility" contesting him. Well everybody who disagrees with Hizzlums list, here's mine.

Top
Snake
MK

Very High
G and W
Falco
Dedede
Marth
ROB

High
Wario
T Link
Pit
Olimar
IC's
Pika
DK
Zelda
Wolf
Kirby
Fox

Middle
Diidy
ZSS
Lucario
Luigi
Mario
PT
Bowser
Lucas
Shiek
Ike

Low
Sonic
Ness
Yoshi
Samus
Peach
Link

Bottom
Jiggs
Ganon
C. Falcon

 

[Sudsy86_]

Allright, I've done a lot of playing with the exclusive intention of thoroughly understanding characters' pragmatic abilities' use and how they are in relation to different characters. Here's what I have come up with.

Top:
MK
Snake
Wolf

High:
ROB
Kirby
Dedede
G&W
Pit
Zelda
Diddy Kong

Mid-high:
Mario
Ness
Fox
Lucas
Olimar
Shiek
Peach
Wario ( Overrated. I'm sorry.)
Luigi

Middle:
T. Link
Marth ( No, he's not placed this low because of the obvious changes; he's this low because it's easy to get quick attacks in on him when he misses)
Falco
Lucario
Pikachu
Samus ( underrated)



Mid-low:
Sonic
Jigglypuff
DK
Climbers (other than desynched grabs, they aren't much at all)
Ike ( possibly a little low, but he is so easy to attack and has attacks which are easy to avoid)
Bowser ( Love him, but too many characters have really strong matchups against him)

Pretty bad:
Ganondorf
Capt. Falcon
Link
Pokemon trainer

Clearly THEE worst:
Yoshi

 

[Grunt]

DK
Climbers (other than desynched grabs, they aren't much at all)

there is loads wrong with your list but these stick out the most.

DK is an excellent counter to Metaknight, arguably the BEST character in the game.

Have you not heard of Icies Infinite, or their ridiculous damage racking chain grabs?

EDIT:
I see you based it on personal trials, but i would also recommend you look at tourney placing to get a good idea as well.

 

[Yuna-Maria]

Sudsy86_ made a post that contains one of the most inaccurate tier lists in history.
All it needs to break the record is god-tier Ike.

 

[Emblem Lord]

On the surface Marth hasn't changed but when you go in-depth he has changed quite a bit. The thing is that most of his attack animations haven't changed, so since he LOOKS the same and you can play him the same, he seems the same.

But he isn't.

*shrug

 

[Dpete]

Tier List

You left off Kirby and Diddy.

Your High Tier is questionable, Toon Link may be too high as well as Zelda and Olimar, while Wolf and maybe Lucario are too low.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

Ahh OK I see what you mean saxdude93.

And I agree with you Emblem Lord.

Edit: fixed

 

[huenikad]

I'm continually amazed at TL's placings in tournaments. Because he seems and feels like quite a solid character.

And Sudsy you definitely have DK too low.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Sudsy86_ made a post that contains one of the most inaccurate tier lists in history.
All it needs to break the record is god-tier Ike.

I can do better then that! Most inaccurate tier list ever, even includes Ike as God tier!

True God Tier:
Ganondorf
Ike

Top:
Captain Falcon
Wolf
Kirby

High:
ROB
Kirby
Dedede
G&W
Pit
Zelda
Diddy Kong

Mid-high:
Mario
Ness
Fox
Lucas
Olimar
Shiek
Peach
Wario
Luigi

Middle:
T. Link
Marth
Falco
Lucario
Pikachu
Samus



Mid-low:
Sonic
Jigglypuff
DK
Climbers
Diddy
Bowser

Pretty bad:
Link
Pokemon trainer

Clearly THEE three worst:
Yoshi
MK
Snake




Seriously though... the original tier list... anybody above Captain Falcon and Ganondorf (with the possible exception of Jiggs) is just idiotic. For that reason if no other, Yoshi is way too low (possible mid contender if his ATs turn out effective, but for now, at least he's above those 3).

Marth, mid tier, come on. That's just ignorant, superlative spacing game + massive range + disjointed hitboxes +great killing power = high tier at least. Granted, I'm oversimplifying things, but he is not at a disadvantage against metaknight, that alone is worthy of enormous consideration.

Wolf is too easily gimped to be that high...

Dk has too many specifically useful match-ups to be that low (metaknight anyone?).


And that's just a tiny portion of what's wrong with that list.

 

[Adapt]

Top: Snake, MK
Very High: G and W, Falco, Dedede, Marth, ROB
High: Wario, T Link, Pit, Olimar, IC's, Pika, DK, Zelda, Wolf, Fox
Middle: ZSS, Lucario, Luigi, Mario, PT, Bowser, Lucas, Shiek, Ike
Low: Sonic, Ness, Yoshi, Samus, Peach, Link
Bottom: Jiggs, Ganon, C. Falcon

Would it be so hard to post tier lists like so? Its much less scrolling and just as easy to read

Thanks

btw,
Too low: Lucario, Lucas
Too high: Zelda (top of mid i think), PT(doesnt do well in tourneys at all), Bowser

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

adumbrodeus, you included Kirby twice in your list

 

[Grunt]

Tier list

could be worse...

GOD:
Wolf, Ike
High:
Fox, Ganon, Link, Sonic, Lucas, PT, Peach
Upper:
Purin, Shiek, Ike, Capt. Falcon, Kirby, Samus, Mario,
Mid:
Marth, DDD, Metaknight, Luigi, Yoshi
Low:
Wario, DK, Zelda, Diddy, Olimar, Pit, IC, GnW,
Lower:
ROB, Bowser, Falco, Snake, Lucario, Kirby
Bottom:
Ness(STUPID INFINIMARTH GRAB!!!! IT RUINS HIM COMPLETELY!)

 

[Sudsy86_]

there is loads wrong with your list but these stick out the most.

DK is an excellent counter to Metaknight, arguably the BEST character in the game.

His reach does counter him well, I just find it hard to have a useful meta game with DK, considering the only moves you truly have to look out for are his jabs, charge punch, up+b, and back air; everything else is slow and should RARELY connect on a smart, patient, aware player.
I'm not very consistent with DK, but his one-on-one ability isn't much, especially considering how large he is and how piss poor his recovery is vertically. ( also, isn't DK another one of those characters whose "best" users all really vary little in creativeness?)

Have you not heard of Icies Infinite, or their ridiculous damage racking chain grabs?

Of course I have ( of their infinites): the strong gravity makes infinites not too difficult in MELEE. The Climbers really only have one realistic way of beating you: desynched chain grabs/ smashes. Other than that, they suck all sorts of genitals--seriously. Also, if you repeatedly tap dodge and jump simultaneously, you can most certainly escape the second grab/smash attack if not the first.

The way I play is to keep my opponents spaced, use characters who can attack from long distances, keep them from grabbing me, jump constantly to further the cause, and be patient. Everyone tries to grab almost as much as they smash spam; therefore, it is clear sense I should jump: that way I avoid the two most commonly used attacks and have a timing advantage ( though not necessarily a position advantage) once they miss.

The Climbers are too predictable, even with the better users: b,b,b,b, dash, attempt to grab, smash, repeat. There is very little you can do with the Climbers, I'm sorry. I don't know who would be mindless enough to get caught into more than two grab/ smash combos in a three stock match.

EDIT:
I see you based it on personal trials, but i would also recommend you look at tourney placing to get a good idea as well.

That's sort of like saying " look at who does well in a particular academic class to get a good idea who might be successful in the area their academic class is trying to cover". Basically, I don't give too much of a darn about tourney placings. Good users are going to beat inferior users 80 percent of the time at least; therefore the fact that the better player used a certain character in his winning doesn't NECESSARILY mean much for that character. Of course, I'm not saying the best users choose characters for no good reason, but Azen's pissbucket will defeat above-average Bob's Snake or MK any day.