Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[St. Viers]

someone who knew bowser well (gimpyfish) won with him, but bowser was still bottom.

 

[chckn]

lol exactly, just because you can beat your friends with captain falcon doesnt make him good

 

[SaxDude93]

yes but wouldnt ivysaur be at least in mid tier because he racks up damage VERY fast and has awesome ko moves
i would say that he is a very risky character because he kos well but also gets koed easily

falcon: dude his up air is really good and his b moves are still useable even though invincibility frams where lost on forward b. his knee was greatly nerfed but it can still kill at low percentages. i believe that someone that knows him well can be VERY good with captain falcon
btw he does have some small combos but they are nothing compared to the beast in melee

Ivysaur is an it, ****it. Also, Falcon's problem is he has to approach. He can't do that good and when coupled with suckzorz priority and low KO power, that adds up to a bad character.

 

[Kiwikomix]

Ivysaur's a SHE.
Get it right.
And Falcon's a decent character if he doesn't face someone with a projectile or someone with better range... or someone with better priority. Guess how many characters that is?

 

[DanGR]

Ivysaur's a SHE.
Get it right.
And Falcon's a decent character if he doesn't face someone with a projectile or someone with better range... or someone with better priority. Guess how many characters that is?

you described every character besides CP.

 

[Frown]

Ivysaur's a SHE.

When IT says SAUR SAUR SAUR, I think IT has a deeper voice than most characters.

 

[Kiwikomix]

@ DanGR: I was going for one character... but now that I think about it, Ganon outprioritizes Falcon

@ Frown: In the Japanese version she actually has a female voice. And you can't use deepness of voice as evidence of gender... I mean, Zamus has a lower voice than Falcon, and Mario has the highest voice in the game.

 

[Xebenkeck]

Mario has the highest voice in the game.

Actually i think Jigglypuff has the highest pitched voice, or lucas when hes wimpering the SSE.

 

[Fearmy]

well ppl think of flowers as Feminine, so i refer calling ivysaur a she, but that's just my own ivysaur
you can't really rate the pkmn alone, because they don't do well without each other, squirtle can't kill due to slow Smashes, Ivysaur can't recover due to Up B gimpage, charizard can't attack because he is to busy being comboded.
Now if you put it together, if you get your enemy up to 100% with squirtle, you can switch to ivysaur who can eaisly attack and kill someone, use bullet seed on them do some more damage and when you start to recieve more, change to charizard who will tank and dish damage out, and here is a bonus, fatiuge doesn't really effect him!

 

[gallax]

you are fogetting that if you switch in the middle of a match its like getting a free hit in the character. PT is mid/mid-low tier at best.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Ivysaur: She's a good defensive character, but if they just stay away and wait for her to tire, she won't do much damage. Also, unless you spam perfectly spaced b-airs, they can get through your defense, and her weight, plus lack of recovery options screws her.

Her? Since when was the PT's ivysaur's gender established?

Reguardless, this pretty much sums up Ivy's issues.

@ Frown: In the Japanese version she actually has a female voice. And you can't use deepness of voice as evidence of gender... I mean, Zamus has a lower voice than Falcon, and Mario has the highest voice in the game.

Doesn't matter, it can be either according to the game, but the vast majority are male.

Regardless, in English you're supposed to use male pronouns if something has a gender but it isn't known, though using the plural pronoun is acceptable and there are plenty of invented gender neutral pronouns. Even if that particular Ivysaur is supposed to be female, until w know for sure, use one of those options.

 

[SaxDude93]

My Tier List

God Tier
Captain Falcon-He's got teh kneezors. And FALCON PUNCH

Broken Tier
Ike-OMG. Aether Spam is like totally not fair. He's also cheap and broken. The fsmash is the most broken move in the game. Totally Best in game. (Except for Falcon)
Pit-Cheap. Arrows are totally liek broken. And his weird sex noise sound. H4X
Sonic-YOU'RE TOO SLOW. Broken much. and Super Sonic is godly
Pikachu-It's got spam. Two types. Thunder is like a wall of thunder. No one can beat.
Wolf-Blaster Spam. It STUNS. I thought there was no stun in Brawl. Broken.
Fox-Blaster Spam. He shines on like a crazy diamond. Fast.
Wario-He farts. Broken. He also has a bike. Double Broken.
Zamus-BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOBS

Good Tier
King DDD-WTF, he's almost broken. He's got a projectile.And he's heavy. But he can't spam it. Almost broken, but not quite. And can DDDcide
Falco-Blaster Spam. But he shines on like a broken diamond.
Olimar-He has MINIONS OF DOOM! Not fair. Would be best in game, but his recovery is suxzors.
Diddy Kong-Nanners are too good. And he's a monkey. 1337
Ganondorf-Crappy version of god. Ganoncide and the Vulcan Neck Bench

Meh Tier
Marth-Isn't Ike or Roy
Pokemon Trainer-POKEMANZ
Lucario-Mewtwo's better
Ice Climbers-PARKAS
Kirby-Can swllow people whole. And he's Kirby. I<3Kirby
Link-It's LINK, MOTHER******
Ness-BASEBALL!
Lucas-Up smash
Weegee-His taunt does damage
Zelda/Shiek-They're one character mother******

Suck Tier
Mario-Loser
Yoshi-Also a loser
Toon Link-Douche
Jigglypuff-Awful
Peach-*****
Mr. Game and Watch-Who the **** is this?
R.O.B.-Was he even in a video game?
Bowser-Slow
Donkey Kong-Slow
Meta Knight-No kill moves
Samus-Not Samus
Snake-his smashes AND specials suck

Best Tier List ever, mirite. And you opinion is automatically wrong and my list is automatically right, therfore its fact.

 

[Shök]

That was...interesting.

 

[gantrain05]

That was...interesting.

yeah it was, i suppose his tier list is correct, i mean he DID back up his claims with facts, wario DOES fart, and lucas DOES have an Usmash so i guess this is the official tier list then?

 

[Frown]

God Tier
Captain Falcon-He's got teh kneezors. And FALCON PUNCH

Broken Tier
Ike-OMG. Aether Spam is like totally not fair. He's also cheap and broken. The fsmash is the most broken move in the game. Totally Best in game. (Except for Falcon)
Pit-Cheap. Arrows are totally liek broken. And his weird sex noise sound. H4X
Sonic-YOU'RE TOO SLOW. Broken much. and Super Sonic is godly
Pikachu-It's got spam. Two types. Thunder is like a wall of thunder. No one can beat.
Wolf-Blaster Spam. It STUNS. I thought there was no stun in Brawl. Broken.
Fox-Blaster Spam. He shines on like a crazy diamond. Fast.
Wario-He farts. Broken. He also has a bike. Double Broken.
Zamus-BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOBS

Good Tier
King DDD-WTF, he's almost broken. He's got a projectile.And he's heavy. But he can't spam it. Almost broken, but not quite. And can DDDcide
Falco-Blaster Spam. But he shines on like a broken diamond.
Olimar-He has MINIONS OF DOOM! Not fair. Would be best in game, but his recovery is suxzors.
Diddy Kong-Nanners are too good. And he's a monkey. 1337
Ganondorf-Crappy version of god. Ganoncide and the Vulcan Neck Bench

Meh Tier
Marth-Isn't Ike or Roy
Pokemon Trainer-POKEMANZ
Lucario-Mewtwo's better
Ice Climbers-PARKAS
Kirby-Can swllow people whole. And he's Kirby. I<3Kirby
Link-It's LINK, MOTHER******
Ness-BASEBALL!
Lucas-Up smash
Weegee-His taunt does damage
Zelda/Shiek-They're one character mother******

Suck Tier
Mario-Loser
Yoshi-Also a loser
Toon Link-Douche
Jigglypuff-Awful
Peach-*****
Mr. Game and Watch-Who the **** is this?
R.O.B.-Was he even in a video game?
Bowser-Slow
Donkey Kong-Slow
Meta Knight-No kill moves
Samus-Not Samus
Snake-his smashes AND specials suck

Best Tier List ever, mirite. And you opinion is automatically wrong and my list is automatically right, therfore its fact.

That was good except for Sonic. Move him up.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Nice list saxdude, I like how you put snake at the bottom even though he is your main... /sarcasm

 

[quinn95]

A (U) beside a name means they could possibly move up on the list.
A (D) beside a name means they could possibly move down on the list.
An (N) beside the name means they could possibly move up or down on the list.

Top Tiers:

Snake (D)
Meta Knight (D)
Mr. Game & Watch (D)
Marth (N)

High Tiers:

Falco (U)
R.O.B (D)
Toon Link (N)
King Dedede (N)
Pikachu (N)
Wario (D)

Upper Mid Tiers:

Pit (N)
Wolf (N)
Captain Olimar (U)
Donkey Kong (N)
Lucario (N)
Zelda (U)

Mid Mid Tiers:

Ice Climbers (N)
Ike (D)
Fox (U)
Zero Suit Samus (U)
Diddy Kong (N)
Luigi (N)
Lucas (D)

Low Mid Tiers:

Squirtle (D)
Ness (D)
Mario (N)
Sonic (U)
Sheik (U)
Kirby (N)

Low Tiers:

Ivysaur (N)
Link (U)
Peach (D)
Charizard (U)
Bowser (N)
Captain Falcon (U)

Bottom Tiers:

Ganondorf (U)
Samus (U)
Jigglypuff (U)
Yoshi (U)

Please comment on what you think about my tier list.

A (D) beside a name means they could possibly move down on the list.
An (N) beside the name means they could possibly move up or down on the list.

Top Tiers:

Snake (D)
Meta Knight (D)
Mr. Game & Watch (D)
Marth (N)

High Tiers:

Falco (U)
R.O.B (D)
Toon Link (N)
King Dedede (N)i think ddd should be at most middle
Pikachu (N)
Wario (D)

Upper Mid Tiers:

Pit (N)
Wolf (N)
Captain Olimar (U)
Donkey Kong (N)
Lucario (N)
Zelda (U)

Mid Mid Tiers:

Ice Climbers (N)
Ike (D)what I dont get that....
Fox (U)shouldn't fox be up more?
Zero Suit Samus (U)
Diddy Kong (N)
Luigi (N)
Lucas (D)

Low Mid Tiers:

Squirtle (D)he should be around top!
Ness (D)
Mario (N)he should be a little higher...
Sonic (U)
Sheik (U)
Kirby (N)

Low Tiers:

Ivysaur (N)
Link (U)
Peach (D)
Charizard (U)
Bowser (N)
Captain Falcon (U)lots of people could disagree with this

Bottom Tiers:

Ganondorf (U)
Samus (U)
Jigglypuff (U)
Yoshi (U)

Please comment on what you think about my tier list.[/QUOTE]

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

I like this list for the most part, although CF is the worst character in brawl... Squirtle should not be around top! Also, move Pit down a little, and samus up a bit (not much). Also, put DDD in upper mid.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

Veng, i think you should work on Pikachu as your next character. He can be quite similar to Ness, and I think he'll be easier to adapt to.

I really do feel bad for Captain Falcon

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragnarok17
lol

Do you guys think that the creators of Brawl ever tried to actually test out the game to see balancedness?

The thing is that I don't think that balancedness was really the #1 focus of the development. I don't think the game is really meant to be a competitive fighter. Surely Sakurai is aware that this segment of gamers exists but they are not the primary focus. There are many ways to play the game some of which suit certain characters.

Lets look at Ike for example. Ike absolutely dominates in timed matches (yes some people do play these). He's also better generally in FFAs where predictability is less of an issue with all the chaos going on making it hard to really zero in on what he's doing.

Sonic is another great example. When you put items on he's suddenly a hundred times better. Items help compensate for his lack of KO potential and he has one of the best final smashes in the game.

Some characters also get worse in different environment. Dedede's infinites and chaingrabs are harder to use with other people getting in the way. Ice Climbers also suffer for this reason. Characters that rely on heavy projectile spam and camp tactics suffer with more characters.

Basically what I'm saying is that you've chosen to play a game competitively which wasn't really designed (or at least wasn't designed exclusively) for that type of gameplay. As such you have to deal with issues such as (somewhat) poor balance.

I just felt I had to say this to people who complain about Brawl's lack of balance. Carry on with tier discussion.

Oh yeah, I forgot there are other ways of playing

 

[the7eleven]

Wheres pokemon trainer? lol shouldn't he be at the bottom for doing nothing?
If you split up pokemon trainer of course they'll suck cuz you can only play them for 2 minutes.
In general I think the whole pokemon trainer deserves a place in the mid tiers.
and yes I agree with the most part of the tier list for now.
Dedede should be lowered a notch
Captain Falcon seems okay to me
and yeah Ike should be lowered a bit too although I do see potential in him

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Ya, the7eleven, you cannot split up PT, it is 1 person!!! Also, I think Ike should only be lowered in that list to the bottom of the tier that he was originally in, or the top of the one before that.

 

[Frown]

C'mon guys, Falcon isn't that bad! Everything he lost was HIS ABILITY TO KILL

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

Frown, I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not. Im guessing you are though having seen your earlier jokes (this isn't an insult if you took this wrong)

 

[Frown]

Frown, I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not. Im guessing you are though having seen your earlier jokes (this isn't an insult if you took this wrong)

I'm a living joke.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

dedede should not be lowered at all, his tourney results and matchups both prove that

pt should be low tier, his recovery on 2 of 3 of his pokemon is just bad, and charizard, while his recovery is decent, is easy to punish because it doesn't autosweet spot nearly as easily as other characters. also, if you know how to DI properly, ivysaur isn't very good

dk should be moved up a bit too, he has good matches with several of the top characters (don't bring up the chart, that things horrible), and has a very good tournament record

bowser should be top of low, he's got decent range, and priority, great ko power + damage, and his attacks aren't nearly as slow as you seem to think

EDIT: also, i'd move lucario down a bit, they just found out metaknight has a walking chaingrab on him similar to the marth one on ness and lucas

also, yoshi isn't that bad, low tier? yes, but the bottom of bottom? no way in hell, he's got too much priority and does too well at punishing shields

 

[Dpete]

Tier list

Save the internet trees! Quote tier lists like this ^.

Also, Kirby is wayyyyy too low. Really, not just cause I'm a Kirby main. He has good matchups, a very well-rounded skillset, and better tourney placings than a lot of characters you listed above him. At the least I think he should be above where Luigi is now.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

I agree with itsthebigfoot about DDD. DDD should stay up there with the tops.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

dedede should not be lowered at all, his tourney results and matchups both prove that
pt should be low tier, his recovery on 2 of 3 of his pokemon is just bad, and charizard, while his recovery is decent, is easy to punish because it doesn't autosweet spot nearly as easily as other characters. also, if you know how to DI properly, ivysaur isn't very good

dk should be moved up a bit too, he has good matches with several of the top characters (don't bring up the chart, that things horrible), and has a very good tournament record

bowser should be top of low, he's got decent range, and priority, great ko power + damage, and his attacks aren't nearly as slow as you seem to think

I definately know about Tournament results.....but His matchups are average, maybe above average at best.

 

[Onomanic]

why is zelda higher tier than shiek? O_o hasn't shiek always been higher than zelda? explanation plz

 

[itsthebigfoot]

I definately know about Tournament results.....but His matchups are average, maybe above average at best.

the matchup chart is really bad, i wouldn't take that as fact, it says he has a neutral matchup against a character he infinites (wolf, you can infinite him by a ledge if you have great timing) and really, a lot of his supposed "bad" matchups are really neutral or in his favor

EDIT: zelda is higher than shiek because she has more priority and can kill people somewhat easily compared to sheik (uair or usmash, otherwise you got nothing) also, zeldas recovery is better

 

[SaxDude93]

why is zelda higher tier than shiek? O_o hasn't shiek always been higher than zelda? explanation plz

Only in Melee, only in Melee. New game, new moves, new physics, new tier list, new placements. I wonder where my joke list goes on the tier list of joke tier lists?

 

[Airgemini]

Sheik was higher than Zelda in Melee yes but not in Brawl.
Zelda's just a better character.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

If the other explanations didn't answer your question fully blu link, here are some changes:

Zelda's Din Fire has a lot larger range and Area of Attack, and i think stronger too. She's a lot stronger too. Priority's higher. Speed is higher I'm pretty sure.

Shiek has been made weaker. Her Fair in Melee, which was an awsome KO move, is nerfed a lot in Brawl now. You pretty much can't kill with it anymore. And she can't chaingrab anymore. Some of her smashes are also weaker (a couple were weakened signifficantly, but I don't really remember which ones. I think it was the Upsmash and Dsmash)

 

[Rhubarbo]

Here it is...an attempt at a Brawl tier list. Here I'll rank each character from 1-37 in an as objective fashion as I can. There is no fanboy bias here!

Top Tier:
Snake
Meta Knight
ROB

High Tier:
Toon Link
Falco
Pit
Diddy
Mr.Game and Watch

Mid Tier:
Marth
Dedede
Ice Climbers
Fox
Olimar
Wolf
Wario
Zero Suit Samus
Lucario
Ike

Low Tier:
Luigi
Kirby
Mario
Pikachu
Ganondorf
Zelda
DK
Pokemon Trainer*
Sonic
Peach

Bottom Tier:
Yoshi
Sheik
Lucas
Jigglypuff
Link
Bowser
Ness
Samus
Captain Falcon

*The Pokemon Trainer factor:
The Pokemon Trainer is a very unique character that requires that use of all three characters with in most matches for the best results. Therefore, I have decided to NOT separate the 3 characters on my tier list. If I were to rate the effectiveness of the individual Pokemon from 1-3, this would be the list:

1-Charizard
2-Squirtle
3-Ivysaur

Anywho, I hope that this list was as informative as it could be and gave some people another perspective of the potential Brawl tier list.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

Your tier list looks fine. I would change quite a few placements though, but everyone has differen't opinions I guess, so it looks fine.

 

[Yukiwarashi]

Her? Since when was the PT's ivysaur's gender established?

Reguardless, this pretty much sums up Ivy's issues.



Doesn't matter, it can be either according to the game, but the vast majority are male.

Regardless, in English you're supposed to use male pronouns if something has a gender but it isn't known, though using the plural pronoun is acceptable and there are plenty of invented gender neutral pronouns. Even if that particular Ivysaur is supposed to be female, until w know for sure, use one of those options.

Actually, Ivysaur is a girl. In the Japanese version of Pokemon, Ash's Bulbasaur sounds more masculine than May's Bulbasaur, who has the same voice as the Ivysaur in Brawl. >_>;

 

[PCP]

actualy, i think shiek has better recovery than zelda... maybe because i suck at teleport recovery, but everytime i try to teleport on the ledge, i miss calculate and zelda teleports underneath the stage... i think her teleport is pretty hard to control when you're trying to get back up on the stage. on the other hand, shiek's teleport is easier to control cause it doesn't travel as far, plus she also has a tether recovery move.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

Still, that doesn't really say that its a she. And also, just to point out a few facts, that Ivysaur could be 'A she' but would still be referred to as an 'it'. At least this is how it works in the Pokemon show. Pokemon do have genders, but are referred to as 'it's. Or, at least this is how it works in the English version of Pokemon.

 

[Dpete]

Tier List.

Few things...

You might want to adopt a 6 tier system, it accommodates the larger amount of playable characters found in brawl much better.

Marth is definitely in the Top 7 as far as best characters are concerned, top of mid tier doesn't cut it for him. See Emblem Lord's posts earlier in this thread for justification.

Toon Link is too high. It seems he is a good character, but he doesn't have the tournament placings to back a Top 5 placement.

Some other small things here and there, most notably G&W and DDD need to be moved up, and Zelda, Pikachu and DK seem very low.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

PCP, i see what you mean. An argument for that would be that Zelda's would still be better, since all you have to do is drop/fall down more before using it, but then again that could give enough time to be edgeguarded. Unless, if Zelda and Shiek, can they use their Up B through stages? If they can, then Zelda could teleport anytime, may be not to the edge, but can quickly teleport before providing too much time to be edgeguarded, and can teleport to the stage near the ground.